I just noticed that spirits meta % is going way down since it has a bad match-up with phoenix. This is really good for us since spirits can be pretty tough from the U/W side. It also seems like humans has been creeping back up a bit. We should likely pay a little less respect to selfless spirit and plan for more meddling mage.
The most common answer for what land to run would be extra copies of glacial fortress. I have always had 1X copy of mystic gate in my build though since it really helps pull of cryptic commands when plains are involved!
I've avoided Ojutai so I can't speak to that one, but I think Teferi is just better and I like having the angels in the sideboard since they win so many matches.
I think absorb has been a bit under-rated since its introduction to modern. It is 3 mana and color intensive, but lifegain is a very strong effect for a control deck. I think 3 copies may be a bit much, but I'd be down to test 1-2 copies in the maindeck as a catch all answer that also offers some points of life.
Nassif also just posted a league with a U/W control build with 0 copies of terminus on the CFB website. The deck looks pretty good and he has some good insights. I particularly like his inclusion of more cheap answers in the form of a few 1 ofs: spell snare, oust, and condemn. He has also cut down to 2 JTMS and 2 Teferi which makes sense with no terminus in the deck. He mentions some potential changes at a few points including keeping the 2 angels in the board even though people are expecting them, they are just really strong. I also like the notion of cutting down to 2 cryptic command which he briefly talks through. As a final note, he does not play the 1X ghost quarter that so many people insist on running. I 100% agree that this card is terrible in U/W control and is only being played as a relic from a time when there were no better options.
The blue gearhulk is a very powerful card, but modern is just too fast for this type of effect. As I've been tuning this deck I've noticed that most games I lose I have 4-6 cards in hand with no ability to effectively interact before I get aggroed out. The result is that I look at any cards that cost 4 or more mana or cards that don't interact with the opponent (azcanta, cantrips, etc) with a very critical eye and try to minimize their numbers. For this reason I would not include a 6 mana card in the main-deck right now, but it could be a sideboard option for the slower decks like G/B/x or control mirrors.
The 59% win rate is impressive, and I have a feeling that part of it may be that U/W matches up pretty well to phoenix. All of our removal is super live against them and detention sphere is particularly well positioned as a way to deal with multiple phoenixes for only 3 mana.
I second what slowgod has said about relic of progenitus, this card is very good right now and can slot right in to the maindeck. It does require some concessions in deckbuilding though as search for azcanta and logic knot are really weakened by it's effect. If we just had counterspell this would be much easier to figure out!
If we want the format to slow down, there are only really 2 options:
Ban the cards that are enabling the fastest decks in the format
Print new cards that effectively answer the fastest decks in the format
Every time someone brings up cards like swords to plowshares, Force of Will, or even counterspell people freak out about how control is going to take over the format. I feel that something has to give at some point though and my preference would be to add new cards to the format rather than reshaping the format through bannings. By adding better answer cards to the format people who want to jam aggressive strategies are still free to, but they would have to accept that it won't be as easy as executing your own strategy in a vacuum and will have to consider how the opponent may disrupt them.
After reading this thread for the last few months, there seems to be a general consensus that banning cards from the best 3-5 aggressive strategies is not a great option. This leaves us with only one option if we are to slow the format down and make it more interactive, print better answers! I'm very optimistic with the introduction of straight to modern set design, hopefully the new cards help to slow down the format a little bit and encourage players to build decks with considerations beyond just gold-fishing kills by turns 3-4.
You make a good point about how U/W's biggest issue, which is not having the right early game interaction and getting run over before we can stabilize. I'm trying to make a build using more 1 mana interaction like spell pierce, spell snare, oust to ensure we make it through turn 5 without being dead or too far behind to come back and take over. This creates a new problem which is that many of these cards are pretty bad after turn 5 and can make the late game worse. The solution I want to test to that is playing 3X Jace, the mind sculptor and some number of thirst for knowledge to trade the early game cards for more powerful options in the late game. I feel like current builds with 4x cryptic, 3x JTMS, 2x Teferi, 2x azcanta are a bit over-engineered for the late game with all of these cards that don't interact at all until turn 4 at the earliest. I'll be working on my build for the next few days and let you guys know how it does.
Any updates here, Loki? What are your thoughts on Rolling Earthquake in order to clear the board of creatures?
This card is a pretty mana efficient wipe, but the fact that is costs us valuable life points is a big downside. You could try black sun's zenith as a similar effect. It costs 1 more mana which is the downside, but it doesn't hurt our life total, permanently shrinks things to big to kill with -1/-1 counters, and shuffles back into the library for repeated usage if that ever comes up.
I heard about a list running main-deck relic of progenitus, talisman of progress, and thirst for knowledge. The relics are good against dredge and decent against phoenix and a few other things, they can be pretty useless against things like tron and burn though so they become a 2 mana cycle. Any thoughts on a build like this for the current meta?
I have a hard time wrapping my head around why people think Baleful Strix is too strong... It's a 1/1 for 2 that draws a card and profitably blocks a creature. How is a completely fair 2-for-1 creature "too powerful" in a world where the nonsense capable that is considerably more powerful than that is accepted as common place?
Reading the responses to this are making me scratch my head. It seems like people are saying this card would hurt fair strategies, but wouldn't this card only be played in fair strategies? Making the case that a card that would only be used in fair decks would hurt also simultaneously hurt fair decks seems like some strange logic from my perspective...
As was already pointed out, this sounds very much like what people were saying about JTMS and AV before they were un-banned.
I've been thinking about possible changes to the deck and one card I am always drawn to it Mishra's Bauble. It doesn't look like much, but it has some good synergy with the deck. A few of the ways that it can be useful:
Creates draw triggers on opponents turn for terminus for the low cost of zero mana
Adds cards to the graveyard to strengthen logic knot and azcanta
Makes the deck 56 cards which increases consistency
Offers some card selection by offering scry 1 in combination with a field of ruin activation or a fetchland
The card is not perfect however and you should consider that it actually delays the card you are going to draw by a turn. It also has a non-bo with stony silence which should be considered when side-boarding.
Has anyone else tested with this card or have any thoughts on including it in a U/W control build?
I've been considering adding 1 copy of Shalai, Voice of Plenty to the main-deck. Not only is it a nice mana sink that acts like another expensive version of Gavony Township or immediate win condition with infinite mana, but it also blanks a lot of removal and stops burn and some combo cards. In the worst case it is still a 3/4 with flying for 4 which is reasonable on its own.
I'm always hesitant to add cards that make CoCo less reliable, but it seems to have a lot of upside right now. Has anyone played Shalai main-deck and how have the results been?
I did see that list and I'm really glad to see the good result. I agree with the decision to run the finks combo right now since infinite life seems to lock up the game against a lot of the top decks including dredge, burn, humans, and spirits. It also turns just about every creature into a must kill threat which really taxes our opponent's removal. I'm running something similar with the following changes:
-1 Saffi
-2 Rallier
-1 Voice
-1 Ooze
+1 E-wit
+1 land
+3 Tidehollow Sculler
My mana-base is a little different than that list and includes 2x blooming marsh to help meet the mana requirements of sculler. I think going all-in on the combo G1 is the right plan right now My reasoning for running sculler main-deck is that I feel it effectively supports the combo plan. When you play it against a fair deck and take a removal piece it forces your opponent to spend at least 1 removal spell to get rid of it and if they only had 1 removal spell you are clear to go for the combo win. Against unfair opponents, sculler is strong disruption and taking their key spell can often buy you 2 or more turns which helps us to win the race. I might consider replacing the 3 scullers with 2 renegade ralliers and 1 Saffi if the mana base proves to be too painful with sculler in the mix.
I'm also thinking about putting a Knight of Autumn main-deck since it seems like such a flexible card. Has anyone experimented with this card?
Blooming Marsh should help with the mana needs of my build. I just feel like the mana base gets stretched very thin as I want to have 2X Gavony Township and at least 4 basics for the number of path to exile and field of ruin floating around these days. Kitesail Freebooter is alright, but is pretty bad against humans which is the number 1 deck right now, I like that Tidehollow Sculler is able to take creatures as well. It is extremely relevant in just about every match and that's why I've been trying to make it fit into the main-deck.
I'd really recommend fitting in a 22nd land. This is a deck that absolutely needs to play land turns 1-3, and often turn 4 as well. All the advantage of a turn 1 mana creature is lost if you miss your land drop on turn 3, or can't cast that coco/chord in your hand. Otherwise, I think this build looks really good and is close to what I'd play right now. I'm not sure the saffi and ralliers are worth the slots, but they are some cool tech.
I've been working on a build with 4X Tidehollow Sculler in the maindeck, but have been struggling to make the mana work since needing B/W turn 2 and GGGX turn 3 for chord is a tall order, especially with Gavony Township in the mix. Sculler is just good against everything right now and I'm trying to figure out if this deck can be configured to support the casting cost.
I saw another U/W list top 8 a pretty big SCG event with 0X terminus, 2X settle the wreckage, 2X supreme verdict, and 3Xrelic of progenitus maindeck. I like where this list is going and seems like a good fit for the meta.
I've avoided Ojutai so I can't speak to that one, but I think Teferi is just better and I like having the angels in the sideboard since they win so many matches.
Nassif also just posted a league with a U/W control build with 0 copies of terminus on the CFB website. The deck looks pretty good and he has some good insights. I particularly like his inclusion of more cheap answers in the form of a few 1 ofs: spell snare, oust, and condemn. He has also cut down to 2 JTMS and 2 Teferi which makes sense with no terminus in the deck. He mentions some potential changes at a few points including keeping the 2 angels in the board even though people are expecting them, they are just really strong. I also like the notion of cutting down to 2 cryptic command which he briefly talks through. As a final note, he does not play the 1X ghost quarter that so many people insist on running. I 100% agree that this card is terrible in U/W control and is only being played as a relic from a time when there were no better options.
The 59% win rate is impressive, and I have a feeling that part of it may be that U/W matches up pretty well to phoenix. All of our removal is super live against them and detention sphere is particularly well positioned as a way to deal with multiple phoenixes for only 3 mana.
I second what slowgod has said about relic of progenitus, this card is very good right now and can slot right in to the maindeck. It does require some concessions in deckbuilding though as search for azcanta and logic knot are really weakened by it's effect. If we just had counterspell this would be much easier to figure out!
- Ban the cards that are enabling the fastest decks in the format
- Print new cards that effectively answer the fastest decks in the format
Every time someone brings up cards like swords to plowshares, Force of Will, or even counterspell people freak out about how control is going to take over the format. I feel that something has to give at some point though and my preference would be to add new cards to the format rather than reshaping the format through bannings. By adding better answer cards to the format people who want to jam aggressive strategies are still free to, but they would have to accept that it won't be as easy as executing your own strategy in a vacuum and will have to consider how the opponent may disrupt them.After reading this thread for the last few months, there seems to be a general consensus that banning cards from the best 3-5 aggressive strategies is not a great option. This leaves us with only one option if we are to slow the format down and make it more interactive, print better answers! I'm very optimistic with the introduction of straight to modern set design, hopefully the new cards help to slow down the format a little bit and encourage players to build decks with considerations beyond just gold-fishing kills by turns 3-4.
This card is a pretty mana efficient wipe, but the fact that is costs us valuable life points is a big downside. You could try black sun's zenith as a similar effect. It costs 1 more mana which is the downside, but it doesn't hurt our life total, permanently shrinks things to big to kill with -1/-1 counters, and shuffles back into the library for repeated usage if that ever comes up.
Reading the responses to this are making me scratch my head. It seems like people are saying this card would hurt fair strategies, but wouldn't this card only be played in fair strategies? Making the case that a card that would only be used in fair decks would hurt also simultaneously hurt fair decks seems like some strange logic from my perspective...
As was already pointed out, this sounds very much like what people were saying about JTMS and AV before they were un-banned.
- Creates draw triggers on opponents turn for terminus for the low cost of zero mana
- Adds cards to the graveyard to strengthen logic knot and azcanta
- Makes the deck 56 cards which increases consistency
- Offers some card selection by offering scry 1 in combination with a field of ruin activation or a fetchland
The card is not perfect however and you should consider that it actually delays the card you are going to draw by a turn. It also has a non-bo with stony silence which should be considered when side-boarding.Has anyone else tested with this card or have any thoughts on including it in a U/W control build?
I'm always hesitant to add cards that make CoCo less reliable, but it seems to have a lot of upside right now. Has anyone played Shalai main-deck and how have the results been?
-1 Saffi
-2 Rallier
-1 Voice
-1 Ooze
+1 E-wit
+1 land
+3 Tidehollow Sculler
My mana-base is a little different than that list and includes 2x blooming marsh to help meet the mana requirements of sculler. I think going all-in on the combo G1 is the right plan right now My reasoning for running sculler main-deck is that I feel it effectively supports the combo plan. When you play it against a fair deck and take a removal piece it forces your opponent to spend at least 1 removal spell to get rid of it and if they only had 1 removal spell you are clear to go for the combo win. Against unfair opponents, sculler is strong disruption and taking their key spell can often buy you 2 or more turns which helps us to win the race. I might consider replacing the 3 scullers with 2 renegade ralliers and 1 Saffi if the mana base proves to be too painful with sculler in the mix.
I'm also thinking about putting a Knight of Autumn main-deck since it seems like such a flexible card. Has anyone experimented with this card?
I've been working on a build with 4X Tidehollow Sculler in the maindeck, but have been struggling to make the mana work since needing B/W turn 2 and GGGX turn 3 for chord is a tall order, especially with Gavony Township in the mix. Sculler is just good against everything right now and I'm trying to figure out if this deck can be configured to support the casting cost.