MTG Salvation

Quote from MenaceJDM

Dude. The mana is solid. 14 Green sources, 6 black sources, 11 white, and 2 red sources is plenty. If you haven't played the deck or the mana base you have no business being a neigh-Sayer. With 12 ramp spells in the deck, there is no way you cant get 2 of each color by turn 6. it would be very rare and hasn't happened to me yet.

Red is definitely not needed for wolf run to win. And the spells that white provides are night and day better than what Red can provide to my type of play style. Kessig runs white is definitely a control deck; especially after sideboard.

Elesh Norn + timely reinforcements or inkmoth or gravetitan 0r....you get the point.


Slagstorm vs Day of Judgement (wins)
Inferno Titan vs Elesh Norn (wins)
Gideon vs..... o wait, red has nothing that even compairs to him.

Jeez... I'm sorry for giving my 2 cents on the deck you asked for opinions on. I made my concerns, thanks for taking my head off.

In answer to your points; Inferno Titan and Norn have different weaknesses, I run Sheoldred in my deck and she dies plenty to Images. Inferno Titan has saved me a few times against Solar Flare lists relying heavily on Sun Titans into Images, which again kill Legends. Slagstorm hits Walkers as well as comes down a turn faster against aggro, I understand the want to wipe the board but if you are playing Titans and Wolf Run you really shouldn't need to fight for more than a turn or two after you get to that level. Fighting control? (There for Slag is useless) What is DoJ going to do? Wipe their one creature off the board? Gideon, I'll admit is hard for lots of decks; I'm still trying to find a non-Karn answer to him, I'll probably go back to Beast Within (but that's just me and my list).

I look at Black and see replacements for everything in White (that you brought up) other than Gideon. BSZ beats the snot out of DoJ since we ramp anyway, Grave Titan is relevant over Sun Titan, Sheoldred perpetuates the threats you've lost already (a different goal than Norn), and solves your Unburial Rites while hitting their board.

In my honest opinion if you wanted the best White card, you'd have brought up White Sun's Zenith; that thing is nuts... Since there are 2 cards I can think of in all standard that kill instant speed masses (Norn and Carnifex Demon), otherwise you play Blue and counter it.

In addition, you're missing some of the most important combinations. Norn + WSZ and Gideon + Sunblast Angel (though not many people credit the Angel). Both are nuts board control.

The reason I brought up the mana base in the first place is because I've had some issues with mine, it's cost me games in some instances; that in mind I see 4 color as a huge liability, especially when it is linked to such powerful parts of the deck. If you've not had problems, then my concern is moot.

Listen, I know it's all play style and ours certainly look different. I understand that I'm giving suggestions based on my deck, but that's my experience. Again, you posted a thread asking for "thoughts and concerns"; I thought I had something to add, apparently not. My bad.

Quote from ModusPwnens

That deck sounds really, really awful. Did he hard-cast Jin?

Ya, lol, he hard cast the full 10 crippling mana. He had a cool idea, it certainly runs different than the traditional "kill them with something that cost 6 or less" and the lock was super solid. It was like watching the old Stasis control decks or something where the opponent has no way to win any more.

Quote from brad soup

I played against a UB control list that ran Army of the Damned as a win condition. I had a whole lot of point removal.

Army of the Damned is no joke! I really don't think this card should be disregarded as a finisher for UB... it also should not be more than a one of. It's faster than a WSZ for 13 (which is scarier at instant speed, but slowing in turns), they look across the table "have a sweeper?"<"no"<"next game." The card (along with WSZ) has had me looking for answers in my Jund Run deck.

I don't think cutting back on Red that hard is a good idea; Inferno Titan is still really good and with him comes all the burn you can use.

I think you are being to greedy with the build. Stretching the mana that far is hard; at least with Jund and Naya we had all adjacent colors. We are not "Solar Flare-Blue+Ramp".

If you go that direction I say you forget the Wolf Run all together and focus harder on the Rites+Grave Titan+Elesh combo. Then you can bring in Gavony Township with some stabilizers to get past the early game (Gideon, DoJ, Emissary, Solemn, even Sunblast). That makes it more about making Zombies with Titans and pumping them; a slower roll than the current Township probably.

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur lock.

The guy stalled until he could safely flash this guy in, then dropped an erasure to mill him while he recycled his library with Elixir of the Immortals. Was UB, he didn't win many, but when he locked his opponent rage quit.

I was watching his hand after he had locked, it slowly developed into 2 Tribute to Hunger 3 Dissipate and some other junk. Talk about crushing... He was using a Surgical Extraction to remove his "dead" draws from his library.

Quote from pxds

It has been said time and time again: in the current standard, if you are being attacked, your opponent already got a huge advantage even if you destroy his creatures, hence why Ambush Viper is a bad choice.

I'm sure you are better off with Sun Titan instead and kill them before they kill you, Wolf Run doesn't need a wall.

So why do so many decks run removal then? If they already have creatures, you should scoop with your logic. So many times have I played a Titan and gotten it killed, attacking someone does not mean you automatically win.

Sunblast Angel is not a wall. WWR makes Birds of Paradise lethal; "if it can attack, it is lethal", that's the basic concept of WWR decks. Since the Angel can in fact attack, it is a sword in our deck and not just a shield. In addition, it shifts tempo; they lose an important creature (or more) and you gain a flying body.

Sun Titan, as discussed in other threads, adds nothing to the deck. He recurs lands and ramp features, neither of which are useful once you've landed a Titan. Sunblast is board control and more offense, both things are useful.

There is a guy at my LGS that runs Sunblasts; his deck is Heartless Summoning, but he uses the Angel to great effect regardless.

Adding it in as an additional sweeper is probably wrong though, more a psudo-sweeper; not a bad thing, but you need to get punched by something that matters first. You won't always get to play it when you can kill things, sometimes you just can't afford to wait. Vigilance makes it moot (so... Sun Titan basically). It's a flying body; I've had problems with flying in my Wolf Run even though I play Jund not Naya, so the 4/5 body in the air is relevant to my interests. It certainly adds more control to the deck though, it's obviously one sided so you don't need to worry about having to many sweepers and hurting yourself to much. And the combo with Gideon looks nuts... Making it a full on one sided sweep.

I'm interested to see how it turns out in a Wolf Run deck.

@redneuro: The topic that didn't exist before this thread is beating a dead horse. Got it.

As far as running more Titans goes; I can see the argument in it, but this has flashback so it requires a Dissipate or turns into a +1 card (if they counter it again). If they use a Dissipate then they will not likely have another for 2-4 turns so you can risk fighting a Mana Leak.

I also run 9 Titans MB in my current list, so adding more feels silly.

@Oldaughd: Thrun is good, I can't deny that; my meta just rips him a new one though. Between BSZ, sacrifice mechanics and a weird Architect/Sword juggling build there is no use. I also only own one, so he feels extra susceptible to the Image trick.

O-Ring and Dissipate are things we just have to live with. Fortunately I feel I can get away with 3 Acidic Slime and 2 Beast Within MB, so the O-Ring normally only delays me a couple turns. Dissipate, like O-ring, can only be a 4 of, so I just hope that I have better draws. I usually do, but I run a high threat density since RDW is basically non-existent in my meta. Ya, basically they just beat Renaissance, but not entirely... and some cards have to beat other cards anyway.

Surgical Extraction is not good; there was an article I read about a week ago explaining why, I'd link it if I could remember it. The basic premise was that Extraction is not a counter spell nor does it kill anything. Extraction reduces the "X" count, where X is threats, counter magic, or something you do not want them to play. If you are gunning for threats, it's great against UB control because you might kill off 66% of their threats (assuming they have like 2 Grave Titans and 1 Sphinx as finishers). However, against something like my Jund Run (9 Titans, 2 Garruk, and 2 WWR+minor creatures) you'll find that removing any one card only reduces the threat percentage by 5-10%. All that is without considering the cards needed to get into a position to extract anyway; Dissipate and O-Ring as mentioned before do not help this card. I'm basically not concerned with Extraction at all; in fact it gives me more reason to want to play Renaissance so I can reload my hand, unload my yard potentially dodging Extraction, and force more answers from an opponent who is running a blank card in his hand. If it makes me exile a card in my hand, then it came out even (Card to kill the original + extraction), but that's not as likely as being disadvantaged a card.
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I'm starting to think this card is doing me good because I'm running a different list than most people. Here is my list, you can decide if it's the deck or the card, but the more posts I see the more I lean on the deck making the card good.

I'm a bit curious if anyone has tried Carnifex Demon as a solid beater. He is flying, beats the snot out of WSZ, totally rips up Mono-Black infect, and a pair of them is instant speed BSZ. The guy has utility written all over his face.

I'm considering adding the card to a Jund WRR deck I've got, really weak against flying so adding this guy looks like it would sow up some holes and create a flying beater. He would replace Grave Titan, but it seems like a small price to pay for doing all those other things.

My meta is full of WSZ and Army of the Damned, tends to over run me. I thought Grave Titan would answer that well, but Carnifex Demon is looking good.

Titans cost more than this... Expensive doesn't really make sense after that is considered; not to mention we are ramping as is, so playing "big" things should not be a problem.

Yes, it's slow but so is control; spending one turn to get card advantage is worth it if you aren't dead. And they usually kill you around turn... 12-15? I'm not worried about one turn of not attacking. And no, it is not a time walk for them; like saying "Draw-Go" is a time walk for them when you are clearly getting card advantage from some means.

@Tronist: I'm a little confused how you are preventing a control player from controlling. It's hard for Green to stop BSZ or Dissipate. Thrun doesn't stop anything; BSZ, Tribute, Wurmcoil (race better), titans (still race better), one dude at my LGS wins with Army of the Damned (race better). I don't even run Thrun because he has been a complete waste against the UB in my area. Renaissance forces 2 counters out of them or it resolves adding a whole lot more threats to your hand; both are good.

As far as playing around things is concerned, that's what Renaissance is. It's playing around something you cannot otherwise circumvent. Show me how a WRR deck gets past a DoJ; you can't just counter that. You have to play more conservatively, but in the standard WRR lists it's only like 6 titans max; that looks like a choice between dumping a titan and winning board, and just losing board and never mattering if they have a DoJ. You can't play around counter magic, it plays around you. So instead of sitting quietly in your chair and wondering if your stuff will get answered just windmill slam it and Renaissance after they run out of answers.

Have you guys tried the card against control? It lets you play as aggressively as you can because you have a ton of back up. It's like fighting RDW, "Yawn... just live until they are in top deck mode then win." If red could "give up a time walk" to have all it's ammo back, it would have double the reach as it would normally have; that is terrifying for the meta (try it once, just have them skip a turn and take a full hand from their yard). Renaissance puts double the threats in your hand, twice.

Admittedly, I play 2 versions of WR; Jund (with 9 titans pre-board, 16 major threats post-board vs control) and Dungrove Run (with 28 Green and 2 Red creatures). Probably attributes to the success of this card a bit.

Okay... I'll apologize, I feel like I had a rant. Typed out a few different responses, tried to be short; not working out.

Creeping Renaissance (For reference)

This is obviously a side board card, but is it worth a slot? (I use two SB.) I've scoped out the deck list thread and not a single deck had it in the board. I'm a little shocked and wondering if I'm just missing why this card is bad (or not good enough?).

I've used it specifically against control decks or WW aggro that uses DoJ. Is there something wrong with recalling 1-4 bombs and 1-6 smaller creatures? Twice per card slot? I have had great experience with it, flashback and all. If it lands I usually force counter/kill to use that many more spells, if not I just flash it back and see if they can do it again.

What is the general opinion on this card? Is there something in other lists I'm missing that replaces this card?

To me, Shock and Blast do not cover enough bases to be worth running (side note that I don't use or trust Metalcraft, so Blast is just a Shock to me). Once you get into Crusader and such in the WW decks, I'd rather have a Slagstorm in my hand to wipe out any other dudes ruining the field; a T2 Honor the Pure will make all of them look pretty dead, but Shock Specifically against Crusader. Delver decks will probably just be riding the one creature into the end, but Slag still hits him and is more vulnerable to Mana Leak; I say player call, both function well and have situational ups and downs. Slagstorm, however, is probably in your list already.

Personally for both White and Blue decks that I know are this kind of annoying I board in some secret Combust x4 tech and just down a few important guys through counter walls. I honestly think it's an amazing answer to 90% of the annoying creatures they play. Delver dedicated decks really just get blind sided by it, and it's still good against Illusions simply for the target but I'd rather Slagstorm here (or mix and match).

There is one guy in my meta who has picked up that Mutagenic Growth pretty much just shuts down Gut, Geist, Shock if it's in his hand; I'm hoping it doesn't catch on, it just ruins all math!

I agree with that, we would like to be ramping. Consider why we would need to shoot something that early though... They are likely aggro and by extension faster than we are. Ramping can be put on hold to slow these guys down; throwing 1 for 1 in turns 1-3 is fine since we have more steam for later. It's an argument for Geistflame, but also a good one for Gut Shot.

The card is free; again to your point. It knocks down Delvers in response to their triggers, kills Stromkirks, dorks, illusions etc.

Shock and Marrow Shards have flaws; Shards does not target nor does it hit non-attackers, Shock cost mana and kills only Mirran Crusader as extra targets (significant but in few matches) and loses you the 2 for 1.

The real decision is Geist or Gut. Do you want the 2 for 1 or the time to ramp? That, I believe, is a good test of player skill. I would choose Gut Shot, others will choose Geist; I don't think there is an obvious and/or solid reason one would out class the other.

I played what most people have described as very off Wolf Green. I've had an unbearably hard time with UB control, but have been doing fairly well against UW control. Aggro is pretty easy as RDW is out shined by WW, I drop things way faster and way bigger than either deck but my ramping is very very vulnerable.



Since UB control has gained more support than I'd like at my LGS, I'll be switching to a GBr as some people have mentioned interest in. That list will be:


I'm kind of a strange player... The sideboard usually makes people wonder. I have sided all 15 cards in at once before to fight a UR Burning Vengeance control. Lose G1; Overloaded his counters in G2, 6 Titans in a row; tabled a Crusader in G3 and he didn't draw a Tribute to Hunger, I think he was hurting on counters early and just risked it.

The Cliffs and Crusaders add speed to the deck when I fight RDW, they basically hit the field and can't die outside of Shrine which they would rather use as a finisher. I've yet to play the match, but I'm pretty confident in the deck pre-board against them.

The other bombs are just to brute force past counter/kill in the UB match, it works in a slow and trying way but it gets there; 16 bombs + Renaissancex2 will do that. I've gotten 2 casual "rounds" under my belt with this matchup and overload ideal; scary... but decent.

I've had a problem with WSZ with this deck, but I'm hoping the BSZ will sow that up a little more... Instant Cats hurts though.