MTG Salvation

Unbreathing Horde would get a cool reset from this guy if not for the Lord effect.

Still, another thing that abuses his ability to always survive damage. Trample becomes ever more important against Black.

I love that Black is getting love in the attrition war, and yet it doesn't look over bearing because it doesn't work with Tokens and the Lord himself does not get the benefit. I say well played Wizards; a very nice piece to add to uh... anything.

Double (or single) Carnifex Demon never looked so good in play!! Oh... You DoJ? My board returns and I reset them for another huge bout of Undying while weakening your board (replays Mikaeus with Havengul or Rites). Pass turn.

Quote from spandy

...Because it deals damage? Sorry, I just don't see why you wouldn't run this in Wolf Run. I guess if you absolutely can't afford to cut a Garruk, Primal Hunter...

It doesn't belong in Wolf Run because it doesn't further the purpose of the deck. Everything in Wolf Run is support for "Wolf Run will pump something that will kill you". Vorapede does not support that in any way. Birds ramp and add to the mana pool, Emissary is a speed bump against RDW, Rampant Growth is ramp, Acidic Slime takes care of enemy road blocks or fast clocks, Solemn is card advantage, and finally Primeval Titan brings the package together if it isn't already and seals the deal.

Everything in Wolf Run has a purpose. For a card to make it into that deck it needs to do a certain job better, maybe even strictly better. There are many kinds of Wolf Run, but they generally sit on one shell: Emissary, Solemn, Rampant Growth, Primeval Titan, +3-6 other staples. Nothing is going to add to that deck unless it can out class something we've seen. Vorapede just does not do anything but be an efficient beater. We have Wurmcoil for that. Want highest damage per turn? Grave Titan. Most board removal plus a body? Inferno Titan. And so on... It's what the deck does.

Vorapede will not change Wolf Run.

It could easily add to other decks. I'm not saying it's bad, not in the least! It'll make some deck builder happy he ran Green. Hell, I'll find a place for it. Maybe post rotation, but I'll do it eventually.

I hope Mono Green makes a showing... I already played Mono Green when Innistrad was first legal; was fun, very willing to do it again.

And to be honest, the way some of these decks ramp, Garruk doesn't fit the right drops. Playing a Solemn means you have 4 mana and often times you drop a 6th land to play a Titan the next turn. Where does that leave Garruk? Off in... not appreciated 5 drop land if you ask me. Relentless seems more fitting, but I'd rather play a Solemn then ramp into a Titan than make my 2/2 wolf... Another forgotten drop that I wonder why I played. They are good cards! They just feel awkward because they don't curve right. So in a way neither Garruk or Vorapede fit Wolf Run. (Garruk is drop, then immediately -3 for 6 cards in my deck; almost always.)

Well that was more to read than I wanted this late at night, but you are right.

Super sad face...

Guess I'm scribbling down this Pod list for nothing suddenly. At least it still looks good in Pod! I was just hoping it had a little more broken to it.

Quote from TheLizard

Image gets in the pod (i.e. Pod ability goes on the stack), then Undying goes on the stack. Image returns to clone something on the battlefield at that time, and then Wurmcoil slithers out of the pod.

So, you don't get to upgrade the Image to a Wurmcoil.

Hmm... I thought it went something like: Image gets into Pod, Undying acts as a response to Pod (stacks before Pod ability due to cost of sac not using the stack), then Pod goes on the stack. Resulting in Coil, then returned Image.

Judge!

Edit: So, while no one is responding; the list of totally broken things this could be copying that aren't Titans are: Reaper from the Abyss (who will kill your Titans), Massacre Wurm (because you should lose 4 life per creature under an X/4), Essence of the Wild (because he simplifies all creatures), Phyrexian Swarmlord (make more dudes), Consecrated Sphinx (Yawn), Carnifex Demon (so you can BSZ at instant speed and win the board), Charmbreaker Devils (for those very very few spells you have in Pod) and apparently every Dragon from M12.

Quote from Mcpatches

pretty sure they go to the GY and die ending up just images and such once there.

After posting I found this.

The only question is how does the stack work after you sac the Image?

Edit: The Reaper from the Abyss comment is also just as epic here. Go away Titans!!

I wish it was just Vengevine instead; I never played in that standard, never played with/against/seen one...

This thing is cool though! Go go Green Stompy!

How does Phantasmal Image, Clone, and Phyrexian Metamorph work with Undying? Because that could be some sickening interaction coming off of Pod.

Image copies Vorapede. Image gets in the Pod, Undying goes on the stack. Wurmcoil slithers out of the Pod, Image returns to clone the Wurmcoil at 7/7. GG?

I'm pretty sure Zombies is going to need to be UB (maybe UB/x) to be competitive this season.

We can keep the standard UB control suite; +2 Dissipate, +4 Mana Leak, +3 Doom Blade, +2-3 Liliana of the Veil (or other).

Now we need a new way to make card advantage, a change from the normal Forbidden Alchemy x4, Think Twice x4. We can take the Secrets of the Dead route and try to abuse Gravecrawler in that sense, but this is replacing one card with two while making it worse; scrapped idea. So we just keep the x8 dig spells?

Now we need Zombies, but not just any Zombies; we need to justify using these Zombies over Grave Titan, Consecrated Sphinx and Wurmcoil Engine. I'd say it needs to beat 2 of the three to make it worth using.

Grimgrin kills everything... Why not nominate him as the prime beater? Now we have a use for Gravecrawler. But I don't see Grimgrin x2 and Gravecrawler x4 winning many games.


If you're counting we have room for 7 more cards. +2-3 Secrets of the Dead, +1 Wurmcoil Engine, +1-2 Grave Digger?


Wurmcoil changed for Zombie flavoring!

I pretty much just think Gravedigger is an amazing Zombie, he lets you have another any creature if you need it. Oh, and with Snapcaster he can be another Creature/Instant/Sorcery. He also can chain into himself if you decide to run more than one; that's important because you'll never run out of double cost Bears. Grimgrin likes to eat double cost Bears. Gravecrawlers are also activated by double cost Bears.

I just think the trick to this deck is going to be going less Tribal and more Control. I'd like to cram a single Call to the Grave in the list, but it's not looking that good.

Putting to much pressure on Gravecrawler is important, we won't be able to abuse him all the time every game so the chaining Gravedigger is necessary. Vengeful Pharaoh is a back up plan if something goes wrong; he is a huge deterrent to attacks, also he can be in play... And since he will never really disappear, he can be the ever Zombie that brings your Crawlers back.

I like this set up because all the creatures we have do one of two things; kill something or reuse something.

Quote from siregar

@Arkmer:
Playing dungrove run without rampant growth is a mistake because of the great synergy between the 2 spells. A sequence of turn 1 birds into turn 2 elder into turn 3 growth or solemn is pretty brutal.

I understand the issue, but adding the Pilgrim over Rampant Growth made the deck speed stupid fast. Not having the card did not slow me down in the least because I was curving so hard every game. Curving into Primeval Titans so fast was way better than Rampant Growth was. Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that I didn't make Dungrove good because of Forests, I made him good because of Primeval Titan.

In addition, I had a stellar match up against RDW because I put 4 more bodies into the deck and lost no ramp power; in fact, I gained speed out of it! They weren't going to burn all my chump blockers, so I had ample time to put down other things and just be more threatening. The size of Dungrove didn't matter to much as long as he was a 3/3 against aggro in short order.

The decks that were faster than me were at a loss because I had more bodies to stall them out, the decks I needed to be fast against could not deal with a T2 Dungrove very well. The surge of UB control in my area pushed me into the list posted in my sig, but that's beyond the OP's question.

I played Mono-Green the first FNM Innistrad was legal, the above list is basically it. The replacements were -all non-Forests -2 Wurmcoil, +4 Forests +3 Primordial Hydra* (I skipped the SB changes). I changed to the posted list when the format realized Wolf Run was amazing. The deck worked in the meta from those days, I promise. Rampant Growth was just to slow for how this deck ran.

*The Hydra was amazing. In the Mono-Green version he was my Fling target for the couple FNMs I used Fling. Otherwise he came down as an early 1/1 and just demanded removal all game. Before I realized Wolf Run existed I actually beat a Naya Wolf Run deck that boarded in 4 Crusaders against me because I had Hydras and Combust; Combust for the Crusaders, Hydra fixed the stalled board position. I think I got lucky that round, but they were stellar games.

Memories Journey could be a one of, maybe. I'm more likely to run Elixir of Immortality because you can save your whole yard from Nihil. Since we already have land in play and other things accomplished, our draws should be a little more efficient. The idea is debatable. Journey however can replace destroyed Vengeance and dead Snapcasters; a one of just to make for less panic when we lost 3-4 Vengeance. Also a cheap response to Nihil to save important things.

I have no intention of adding Acidic Slime to the deck, lol, it has just been in 100% of my standard decks since Innistrad (Mono-Green, WR-Green, Jund Run). It was a nice segue into justifying Ray and Grudge. At any rate, I'll probably have two Grotto in the mana base when I find time to build something.

I still like Sever. If Wolf Run becomes less popular and tokens become more popular, then aren't we going to see more uses for this card? Control loves Wurmcoil, and Solar Flare is still scary (my area runs the Sun Titan chains that often copy Rune-Scared once a turn).

Ratchet bomb does not kill Nihil; well... it does, but they can just respond to it and remove our yard anyway. Maybe your point being that we can force them to pop it early?

A&E is Artifacts and Enchantments.

You have 3 Secrets of the Dead in your sideboard; I know the discussion about main boarding them has taken place, but you ended it by saying something along the lines of "any more than two is wrong and only if you run them at all".

Edit: I found the post, little different than I thought.

Secrets of the Dead is going to be okay MD as a 1-2 of, but the main point of BV is to staple answers onto your draw, not draw onto your answers. That said, you definitely want 4 in your 75, against control. The card is INSANE against control.

I'd still say cut one Secrets. Two of's shouldn't be to hard to find in this deck.

If you don't want to go into the side board yet, I have no objections in waiting. I just think there is plenty of hate for our type of deck; hate is sometimes the entire reason not to play a certain style in the first place.

Playing around the Spellbomb will be hard, that's a practiced skill and your opponent will never be the same twice. Though I understand the logic for it.

Vengeance go White!? I'm shocked... even a little appalled. When the deck idea was introduced awhile back (very pre-DKA spoilers) I thought the coolest part about the deck was that we didn't stall to land a traditional six plus CMC thing to overwhelm the opponent. Since our costs were low we could adjust our game to fit the opponent's speed; drop a Vengeance early if an aggro just needs some Shocks thrown at them, wait awhile and build card advantage if a control deck was threatening a long game. Adding the six CMC feels like betrayal. Day and O-Ring wouldn't be bad though, I don't see any other reasons for a White splash. Feeling of Dread? I don't think tempo is very good in a deck that intentionally draws out games for eight plus turns. Also, I hate playing White; whole other discussion...

I like the bait and switch with the Revoker and Delver, some sad faces in game two.

I want so badly to splash for Acidic Slime, but I don't think he adds anything. He has been a cure all for my other decks. Green in general doesn't really add anything to this deck unless it comes paired on the back side of Ancient Grudge or Ray of Revelation... Lame. Think one or two Grotto MB would make both playable while not shaking your mana base to hard? If you White splash then you can board two Ray and two Grudge and totally rip into decks using any A&E. - Remembered that you mentioned no solid Meta yet therefore no SB, we'll call it planning ahead.

Removing Black is a big step, just consider one card; Sever the Bloodline. How is this thing not played in Vengeance!? It answers token hordes, Wurmcoils and Sun Titan chains, not to mention any non-Hexproof creature! The thing has Flashback to do it again then proc Vengeance! (Note, that it is cheaper to flash back with a Snapcaster.) Not to mention Doom Blade is hard to forget, we can throw BSZ all day and not have an issue (which is better than Day, in both mine and Thrun's opinion). O-Ring... I... Well I already said I hate playing White.

Quote from jadencamelot

Call me conservative.

Keep in mind that (in theory, mind you) the nanosecond you play it, your opponent is going to fire the 17 removal spells at it that have been dead cards up to this point.

You're conservative.

The dead removal is a good point; no sense in adding something that activates your opponent's hand.

Nihil Spell bomb is a problem. It can be countered, but it cost one mana and that's not really something we can just counter ethically*. Your side board didn't contain anything that will sow up the issue any more than counter magic (most of which are Mana Leaks). We are also a little more susceptible to Surgical Extraction and Purify the Grave because we actually use the things in our yard, those are a little less used, but we still lose out against them because of Mana Leak.

(Back to Nihil) The Splinterfright thread brought up Witchbane Orb; worth a look? Wouldn't be more than a two of but even then it might be to slow for what we want it for. I suggested Phyrexian Revoker, but back to your good point about activating removal; I don't see a solid answer... We can't hold Dissipates; it would be difficult to play around, we'd have to use draw spells fairly conservatively just so we don't lose to much Vengeance ammo. If they drop it we'd have to respond somewhere to use those draws then they could sneak a solid beater in under us.

To continue the issue of straight up hate, Ray of Revelation is going to eat face by also being ethically uncounterable. We won't be pinning any answers to draws if we can't defend Vengeance. Will we be able to win on the back of Devil's Play alone?

Now the over arching question: Are these cards worth fighting? Or does the deck just run in a way that it is not bothered by losing these things (until a certain point) and it's about remaining calm.

I don't think the Vengeance deck is going to have a great match up vs W/x.

*Lol, blue players don't have ethics!

I played a WRG deck awhile because before my meta turned the way of control.

You don't need the Inkmoths, they are good but you want to keep your land count as low and forested as possible. I went so far as running Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves and Avacyn's Pilgrim all in fours with 20 lands. You probably don't want to take that route and I don't blame you.

You really are going to want at least 8 Dorks though. Gut Shot will happen and you will be sad, but whatever you're both down one minor card. Dorks aren't a major portion of the deck, they just give you a single turn.

You don't need the removal. It's good and all, but it's nothing to really get hung up over. The single Red Sun could be a two of, but forget Gut Shot. Unless I have really just not run this deck in that long I really think the deck is solid without it.

Skinshifter is unnecessary, he is less than average in any form. Replace him with as many Acidic Slime as possible. I don't know how anyone cannot run Slime in Green; I have never been sad drawing this thing (and if I have it's because the game was already over).

Four Primeval Titans, you just need/want to see them as often as possible. They make everything in your deck better by supplying the WR and more forests.

My list was once:

It ran well for me in my area. Meta has changed since I ran it, so some of the things you see in it are out dated.

I ran one Run because if they were killing them then 2 didn't matter to me. It kept my deck faster to have less lands.

If you get moderately lucky you can blitz their mana base with a weird hand of Slimes, GSZ and Beast Within; that's won me a couple games. Watch their land drops on turn 2-5 those matter the most, after that you can forget the idea.

A sideboard trick I removed was Fling I'm still not sure if the card is smart, but it is all kinds of fun. Pump and swing with a huge Dungrove then shoot it at them after combat for the kill. Same things works with Garruk and card draw; he was usually just a "play and sac" walker if the deck was running smoothly.

Keeping hands was something like "nothing more than 2 lands and nothing with less than 2 dorks". Once you drop a land your mana count goes up to 32... not 20 (I don't count WR), so getting mana after that is pretty simple. No one is going to counter/remove all your dorks; that would be a massive waste. Also, the 12 Dorks allowed for T3 Titans to happen some 15% of my games; it is a very low consistency but when it happens people wonder how they'll recover.

Okay, last thing... Wurmcoil comes out in game two unless the match up is totally amazing with them. Inferno Titan comes in. Suddenly you have no artifacts to hate.

How does this deck fight Graveyard hate? Nihil is pretty much the best one around and there is no answer for it in your lists... I don't think you guys need be worried about Surgical Extraction or Purify the Grave, as they are to narrow.

Might I suggest Phyrexian Revoker? He also makes other things useless while being a body to further your decks goal.

@Jadencamelot: You recommend sticking to 3 colors? There was some discussion about going 5 color, I was wondering if you've tried it.

Maybe I missed the post, but you've put in your list that Looting is better than Ravings; I'm glad to hear it, but sorcery vs instant must be awkward once in a blue moon?

Would you be totally insulted if I tried to run a one of Havengul Lich? He kind of is just super super fun, and takes control of all Clone functions while pumping you full of Snapcasters. Probably add in some Grotto for better creature stealing? All in an if sort of way...