MTG Salvation

Quote from Archie

So are you saying that Arc Trail and Whipflare are worse at stopping zombies than Mana Leak? You don't play much control do you? Against Aggro decks, you side out your counterspells. Why do you think the pros do it? Counterspells are horrible against other aggro decks, because it forces you to hold up mana on your turn without increasing your board presence, among other many other things. What happens when you topdeck that counterspell after the Messenger has already hit the board? Yeah, you'll wish it was a burn spell.

BR wins the mirror match nearly every single time if it keeps any normal hand. Mono Black is actually the best in the mirror, as Obliterator and Lashwrithe are fairly difficult to deal with, as you're forced to have a Gofor or Verdict right then. In the mirror match, the deck with the slightly bigger creatures will usually win. Look at Rubin Zoo vs. the regular Zoo decks from PT Austin.

Ha, I never really considered the mirror. Wouldn't it be more Rock Paper Scissors?

BB > BR
BR > BU
BU > BB

Red kills Blue because Burn makes for a better race, Blue kills Black because they can't stick anything and get tempo'd to death, Black kills Red because of size and Obliterators (honestly, just put Wrack with Madness in your board if this becomes a serious issue).

Quote from TreyTheTitan

Seems reasonable but overly narrow to me.

Isn't TS our worst match up? Doesn't that mean we can be overly narrow?

Quote from Archie

Yeah, I ran almost that exact list you're talking about for about a week and a half. It seems good on paper, and was good for a short while, but nobody is really running control decks right now, and that is what it is best against. Besides, isn't Manabarbs just better at that job anyways? Drop it on turn 4, and your Control opponent loses on the spot. Also, Manabarbs takes out Ramp decks just as well as Control decks. Shrine of Burning Rage is definitely not as good, especially in the later stages of the game as a topdeck. And finally, Shrine doesn't crank up very fast like it would in a real Mono Red deck.

Also, you guys starting to run more artifacts in the mainboard may want to reconsider that plan, since the Spirit Delver decks are running 2 artifact removal spells in their mainboard. The more artifacts we run, the more splash hate we run into from everyone freaking out about swords and Tempered Steel. I'm okay with 1-6 artifacts in the mainboard, but any more than that would seem to be asking for trouble.

I'm looking at the card in the light of unblockable damage; this is replacing a creature essentially. If no one is running control, we don't really need Manabarbs right? So we can dump this into play and it'll hit for damage. Maybe I'm misreading it and you're saying Manabarbs just does more damage in all cases? If that's the case I'll say that we could kill ourselves if we've sustained to much damage while fighting another aggro. Shrine won't punch us for doing things the way Barbs will, so the risk is mitigated in an aggro match.

Shrines aren't going to be main board. In fact, I'd be removing all the artifacts main board because I'm replacing the Legionnaire with Highborn. The list would look like this (probably the easiest way to show this):

So in game one we have no artifacts, but in game two we have the option to board them it. However! Since Spirit Delver(?) is not black, we do not need to remove the Ghouls because they are "Unblockable" to those colors. This means we are free to make an open decision that our opponent cannot reliably predict; though open decisions can also back fire.

Skinrender is a good card. I want that said before I go on.

All the things you mention are indeed very good, but he doesn't do enough for the deck.

We have three general types, and with those types comes certain strengths and weaknesses.

BB = Power (Phyrexian Obliterator, Lashwrithe at the four drop; highest of the decks)
BU = Consistency (Static removals and hard tempo that are pretty universal to keep the field clean)
BR = Speed (face, face, dome, to the face with everything)

Skinrender would slow down BR, make BU wait another turn, and BB has better things to do in a four drop.

Also, I think BU is a really tight list; the only wiggle room being the two Cemetery Reapers and two Phantasmal Images in my list. Just my experience with that deck, as I have much less with the other two variants.

If he was a 2/2 and gave one negative counter at the two drop slot... well, I think we'd have a winner! Might even accept a 1/1 that gave two negative counters.

So I did some thinking about the BR lists and was wondering why you guys aren't using Shrine of Burning Rage... I got to looking over the list and test out a few hands and looking to see where it would fit. It fills the Legionnaire slot quite well.

Theory: For example:
Replace the Legionnaires with Highborns and Manabarbs with the Shrines; this gives you an unblockable dude in most match-ups because Fear is amazing. If by chance you are fighting Black, you can board out the Ghoul for the Shrines and have more unblockable damage from a permanent type they weren't prepared for (and black is bad against Artifacts anyway). This looks a little less good in Archie's list because he only uses twelve Red Spells to Trey's nineteen (both pre-board, so some semantics may apply).

What's the advantage? Gravecrawler becomes more useful with more Zombies. You don't lose two life to play something can be blocked and dies to Gut Shot, instead you gain something that is difficult to block but still dies to Gut Shot. Remember, every creature you draw is not removal for their guys, so the more evasion you have (Fear vs First Strike) the faster you'll pull their life to zero.

Thoughts?

Quote from Thunderkiss

Obliterator is sideboard for red match-ups.

I have an awesome feeling that if Obliterators become to ridiculous Red will have the best answer for them. Wrack with Madness.

Silly Black player, you sacrifice five permanents!

And if you don't think so just consider that it's still removal for any other creature. I think it's viable, and probably hilarious.

Porcelain Legionnaire

This card has popped up in a couple lists here and there. Trey has mentioned it in a recent post, a few others are recommending it as a two drop. I recently disregarded them as worse than Highborn Ghoul due to lacking evasion; maybe I was a bit hasty?

I've not tested any, but they seem like they could make a difference.

Comparing him strictly to Highborn Ghoul (His likely place to fill):
Pros:
Three power
First Strike (very useful compared to Fear vs Black)
Is an artifact

Cons:
Cost two life (Meh)
Is an artifact (Moot vs Black)
Not a Zombie
No evasion (Moot point vs Black)

Am I missing anything? Being an artifact is both good and bad since he dodges some removals and becomes susceptible to others.

From what I'm seeing, this guy should be SB against Black aggro. Is this a wrong assumption? If he is "SB material", does he deserve a slot in the SB over our other options?

I think there is plenty underestimating going on here. Fear is a great ability! It's very relevant. Even against another UB creature deck the Fear was relevant because he had a couple Black creatures and I kept snag/killing them off and getting in unblocked damage. This doesn't work for Legionnaire and if you are Red you'd be dumb not to run Stormblood (He is a 3/3 for two, duh).

I agree he is not the best body ever, but he is our best two drop.

Image and Snapcaster are not two drops... They need something worth playing. You aren't going to Image your Gravecrawler or even their Emissary or what have you. And no, you aren't going to play Snapcaster turn two because he is worse than Highborn at that point! Stop putting these in your deck as your "turn two" play; they clearly are not going to hit the field turn two, this is like saying Skaab Ruinator is a turn three play because he costs three.

Fueling the lich is a poor argument; if you are ramping up to a five drop just so you can get value out of your three or less drops, then you are doing something wrong. It just isn't scary at all when your opponent is recasting small cards at greater costs... Yes! Gravecrawler is amazing, but he is all of that in one card; he doesn't ask you to play a five drop in a non-ramp deck to reuse him.

In closing, Highborn Ghoul is good (for now) because he has better evasion, doesn't ask you to run an over cost card in aggro and should actually come down on turn two. Also is a Zombie.

I can see the argument for BR Zombies; it's a good point that Feast and Famine will be looking good with Mono-Green Aggro making a showing, so having Red simply for Crush could be a big deal. BU just does not offer anything to fight swords other than delaying them (which is fine and can work amazingly well), but eventually if you cannot end it they will kill you with the Swords. Beyond artifact hate the argument will probably be a matter of preference between the Lord and Tempo (BU) against some other relevant creatures and Burn (BR).

My biggest worry about this deck (in either variant) is enchantments. Curse of Death's Hold could be the undoing of this deck... And on that note I'll be changing up my Wolf Run deck!

Quote from Turribull

Pyreheart Wolf tho providing lots of evasion, has a very small body for his mana cost, even after undying.

I've seen (non-zombie) lists with Pyreheart Wolf, it really is a small body. Unfortunately it's a little to small, unless the attack would be lethal most people just block to kill the wolf since the removal isn't hard to find.

If he had haste, I'd be all for him in just about anything red aggroy, but as it stands he is usually the first thing to die.

All from what I've seen, of course.

Blah, something I forgot to mention. I pulled in the Reapers against Undying since they can blow the creature off the stack before they return; I only used it twice, but one was a Vorapede.

Quote from Sabre

Your land count is ok. Additional islands are needed only when you side in 4 Unsummons. I run similiar list (mainboard) as far as mana costs are concerned (for blue -1 Vapor +1 Image) and I am really ok with 8 duals and 14 swamps.

I have 4 Ratchets on sideboard and I side in only against tokens and this goes in place of Mortarpods and Tragic Slips, while also siding in Hex Parasite in place of Diregraf Ghoul and maybe removal (if they showed me more than one walker first round or if the game was really tough because of walker).
For other matchups you have better answers. Not sideing-in Ratchets against Infect deck wasn't an error. An error was siding out Vapors - as you already stated.

All in all - congrats on first place. I just ordered cards for my deck (I am still in love with Obliterators - don't be furious Trey ;)) and will post my reports after I play anything.

Question to guys using Highborn Ghouls (Trey, Arkmer and others) - do you side them out when playing against Tempered Steel / black deck / artifact heavy deck? You know, they are strictly worse than Walking Corpse against those decks.

Thanks for the confidence in the Infect match, his deck is very unique in our meta.

I never took my Highborns out. Ya, they are stricktly worse in those situations, but you aren't going to be running two drops just to fill those match-ups. At least not now and sure as hell not with the Corpse. Even against another Zombie list, I think just being able to play the body matters. The only difference you should see between the Corpse and Highborn is Gutshot and the like that ping for one. If you get hit with Whipflare, you still need two lords to save the Corpse because the first lord will die, so that side of the argument is moot. Arc Trail is really the only one that will be seen mildly different between the two.

Also, we really just don't have a better two drop.

Something I'm considering is Phantasmal Bear. Look! Another two power one drop! Sure, it dies to dumb stuff, but it's still powerful. Just hard on the mana.

Played a Sunday Standard, I had one loss in a five round in Swiss.

The list I used is essentially something Trey posted some pages ago but here it is anyway.



Round One: G/R Aggro (Undying theme + Ghoultree Fling)
Fun match, but boarding out my kill spells and in my Unsummons really hosed his theme and helped me tempo him really hard. Nothing too note worthy here except that his deck could use some tuning as well.

1-0

Round two: Four color Walker control
He was to slow to really fight me, in game two he managed a Stonehorn+Venser lock, but to many removal put that to rest quickly.

2-0

Round three: Mono-Green Aggro
We went to game three, he lost a ton of value from his Emissaries when I started using Unsummons as well as Vapor Snag. Ditching the Verdicts was pretty important in this match up. After seeing the change in tempo his deck couldn't keep up.

Edit: Sorry, I pulled out my Gophers, not my Verdicts. He was running Dungroves.

3-0

Round four: BUG Pod (Some added importance on Glissa)
Removal hurts Pod to much, he couldn't keep moving up his chain. I don't think he got past his five drop in game one; game two he mulled to four and I attacked for fourteen on turn four for the win (literally god hand/draws).

4-0

Round five: Runechanter's Infect (UB infect)
He was using Blighted Agents with some mild tempo/removal to win. I never drew removal in game one and made a poor sideboard choice in game two. I boarded out my Snags for Doom Blades, he boarded in Feast and Famine... I couldn't kill his agent because of the protection, had I brought in the Unsummons over the Gophers, I'd probably have done much better.

4-1 Still got first by two percent on the tie break.

Over all I think the Unsummons are super important in the board, they are not very expected and they get around some of the other "when dies" cards that people play like Viridian Emissary.

Geralf's Messenger was nuts, using the Image on him is very cool because you creep out that much more life for free.

The God Hand I mentioned earlier was:
T1: Crawler
T2: Highborn, swing two.
T3: Captain, swing six.
T4: Image, Image (both Captains), swing fourteen.

I'm running twenty two lands; feels right and wrong at the same time. I got flooded into a few mulligans and I've also been screwed a few mulligans, but on the whole it feels about right. Still sucks drawing an Island...

And I don't know when to side in Ratchet Bomb, I've never used the card before. In the last round, he killed me with two Pikes and an Agent all at two cost; I did know that's how his deck worked, but I was still unsure. Was this another option I should have pursued?

Quote from Thriss

Another use could be with Fiend Hunter, Glimmerpoint Stag and Leonin Relic-Warder - exile something indefinitely, then return them later for anoter exiling.
That might work well with Suture Priest or Mentor of the Meek and many others. Could be interesting deck (and we're only in white)

The funny part about using White for this is that you need to not exile your Vault, so white basically has to resort to Divine Offering or splashing (which is not unheard of, obviously).

Also, I thought the triggers on the stack trick didn't work with Glimmerpoint Stag. Maybe I'm just ill informed?

Quote from Archie

I don't know if you know this, but UW Delver is a cake walk in its current iterations. The only thing that can lose you the game is a Sword of WaP connecting. Their guys just don't stay on the board for very long against us. Now, if they start siding in Spellskites, it gets a bit tougher. I sure do like my manic Vandals in the board against them.

Why would Spellskite be a problem? If your deck is running Go for the Throats like most of the lists I've seen, you should be fine since they can't redirect.

Is no one running Tragic Slip here? Aren't our guys supposed to die over and over triggering Morbid at any given time? Why are we bothering with Dismember if this thing is in color and is easily activated?

For those odd decks like TS Tragic Slip is still good, Victim of Night is great, this is the only time I'd think about Dismember and even that doesn't seem right. Doom Blade might be the best answer to Inkmoth Nexus though.

Disperse might be a fun trick as a reactionary spell against TS, bounce the enchantment to suddenly overwhelm their board. The enchantment really does nothing without creatures, so you'll probably be fine after taking that kind of advantage of their board swing. I've not played tempo for years, so I don't know what kind of wiggle room there is from Vapor Snag; could we use Silent Departure for example? It costs the same but is a sorcery, since all we are looking for is making them replay the card is this viable? The flashback could be relevant later if something takes longer than normal. Yes? No?

Quote from KiwiRogue

-Add an extra Swamp: While fun to beat down with only 1-2 lands and I did flood once or twice, I think I need to guarantee 3 lands a little more.

-Remove two Skinrenders: Aside from Obliterator in the side, I think 1-3 cost is more important. Not sure what to replace them with though...

The Skinrenders could turn into more Images. Evil Twin as a joke?

Have you seen Mathocist's land tables? Assuming his math is right you are one land shy of what is probably the sweet spot for the deck; the hard part though is which color it should be since you already have all eight duals. If you drop the Renders and add the Images you'll be at fifty-two B symbols to twelve U symbols. You'd be running twelve cards that need Blue against thirty cards that need Black. So, ya... the Swamp is right, maybe add one Image and one Swamp over the Skinrenders?

Just rationalizing out loud. Images are also good against Legends!