The hyperbole of Magic's continued existance hinging on Goyf remaining a $200 card is laughable. The truth is, Wizards has allowed the player base to elevate Tarmogoyf to this mythical, untouchable legendary status, similar to Black Lotus. It's become a modern-day Magic icon, a power 9 for the new generation of Magic players who hear tales of this legendary card that's the most powerful creature ever printed and was $3 when it was first released but now is $200 and making it cheap would be the death of the entire game.
Why is it that Wizards is allowed to crash the price of other expensive cards? Why is Tarmogoyf exempt from this? How will tanking the price of Tarmogoyf destroy people's trust in the game? Wizards does this kind of thing all the time!
I wanted some Thoughtseizes but I didn't buy them because they were like $70, which is way more than I'll let myself spend on a Magic card, and I was afraid they would be reprinted eventually. I'm confident a lot of Magic players felt the exact same way as me and also held out on buying them. Did Magic die because we were afraid to pay the ridiculous secondary market price for Seizes? No. Instead, the card got reprinted with (debatably worse) art than the original and it became affordable! It helped make Theros one of the best-selling Magic sets, it helped a lot of players be one step closer to being able to afford to play the deck they want in Modern and it also left a decent chunk of value on the original version due to having alternate art, thus making the original "more pimp". And look at that! The value is slowly creeping back up! Did Magic die then because all of the people who "invested" in $70 Thoughtseizes quit out of despair from watching their card drop in price and fear that no Magic card they buy from now on will ever hold value again? Hardly!
Chord of Calling - Was around $30 before reprinting, now a measly $3 for the reprint, the original was still holding strong at nearly $20 until recently. Are you "collectors" quitting yet?
Polluted Delta (and co) - Topped out at over $100 at one point, never thought I'd own one. Now I have 6, as well as at least a playset of the other 5 Onslaught fetches. They're all under $15 with a few being under $10! Have you collectors quit yet?
Scavenging Ooze - Became all the rage and made ol' Ghave's deck impossible to find. The card alone cost as much as the entire deck. Then it got reprinted in M14 AND was also a promo for a game. It's $5 now. I can feel Magic's end drawing closer...
Eternal Dragon - I traded a $35 card for the foil Champ's promo. I thought it had amazing art and figured it would never be reprinted! Then it turned up in the Commander 2013 decks and now is $3 for the non-foil and the foil promo dropped down to $20. I quit collecting dragons because of that...(NOT!)
Loyal Retainers - Another poor P3K card that was pushing $150 at one point and now you can get a foiled version for around $20!
Hallowed Fountain (and co) - When Modern magic was created, these cards literally exploded in price. They were all around $5 a piece before Modern, then the U/X shocks went through the roof, some topping out at $40. Then that evil Return to Ravnica set came along and printed them with new (mostly superior, IMO!) art and absolutely ruined their prices. Some dropped all the way back down to their pre-modern prices. The originals all fell to $15 and under. Man, it was like Chronicles all over again! So many players leaving in droves...wait, what? The size of the player base exploded during RtR block? That's weird..
Mutavault - Remember when this card was $40+? I do too. Remember when it was $14? So do I! Remember when it was $40 again? I know I do! Remember when Magic's economy destabilized because it dropped all the way down to $10, where it's currently sitting and all the people who invested in and speculated on this card back in the days of Lorwyn quit out of frustration of having their copies tank? I sure don't!
Baleful Strix - $20 for an UNCOMMON?! Good thing Wizards reprinted that card in a Commander precon and now it's $4! I guess all of the investors who bought out every copy of the Ninja planechase deck that had 2x Baleful Strix in it so they could use them as a retirement fund didn't quit the game over that one, because it appears that Magic is still chugging along!
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - I'm sure a lot of people invested in this card back in the day. It hit over $30 at one point. It was reprinted in M15 and dropped as low as $4, but now it's crept back up to $9. Did everyone who invested in this card during the PC days quit? I guarantee there are people still investing in this card right now, despite the fact that Wizards tanked it to a mere 1/6th of it's peak value. Why? Because it's a card that will always be in demand and will (already is) going back up.
Reflecting Pool - Oh how I wanted this for my Riku deck that I was trying to foil out. I tried so hard to get a foil copy (or four) when it was reprinted in Shadowmoor because I was trying to build a foiled out Sliver deck. Never got one. When I started working on my Riku deck, I discovered that foil SHM copies were nearly $100. Then along came Conspiracy, with it's $20 foil Reflecting Pools. Sucks for all the owners of the original, right? Well, yes and no. The original lost about half it's value, but it's still worth twice as much as the foil Conspiracy copy and is still twice as cool!. After all, it has that awesome Plains symbol in the text box since every foil SHM Pool was misprinted.Did anyone quit over that? The card lost nearly 60% of it's value...but I doubt it
Anyone remember when Twincast and Pithing Needle were $20 cards? They naturally tanked on their own. I feel bad for all of the people who "invested" in those cards back in the day. Same with every other Standard staple that inevitably crashes hard post-rotation. But for some strange reason...people just keep paying $10 for Temple of Maladys and $40 for Voice of Resurgences, despite continued heavy loss on their investments. Why is that...
Remember when Woodfall Primus, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Divinity of Pride, Karmic Guide, Avenger of Zendikar, Wrath of God, Exploration, Pernicious Deed, Stifle, Reflecting Pool, Sol Ring, Tooth and Nail, Mirari's Wake, Darksteel Forge, Wurmcoil Engine, Elspeth, Knight-Errant and many more were $15+ cards due to EDH/casual demand and lack of reprinting? That's a lot of cards to tank! I wonder how many Magic players we lost over those cards getting a reprint.
So again, tell me, why is a $100+ Tarmogoyf the linchpin of the entire Magic economy? Why will this card being $30 (because even if it were reprinted at RARE, it would still be at LEAST that much, probably more unless it was reprinted in a Standard set) cause everyone to lose faith in spending money on Magic, but the countless other reprints that destroy the value of card after card after card (many of those cards being far more collectible than a Goyf, like the P3K cards and reprints with Judge/promo artworks) and Standard format rotations and bannings that obliterate a card's value are perfectly fine?
Not to mention collectors and investors still have the Reserved list, foils, judge promos, FTV sets, Commanders Arsenal-type sets, prerelease promos, gameday promos, original artwork/old card frame versions of cards, FNM promos, Guru lands, Korean cards, misprints and many, many more.
As other's have stated, the number of people who would quit Modern/Magic over Wizards making Tarmogoyf (and Modern in general) affordable would be far exceeded by the number of people who would START playing Modern/Magic due to sudden affordability.
This whole "Magic needs $200 Goyfs to survive and you should be ashamed for wanting them to be priced like a normal Magic card!" argument brings me aaaaaaaaaaaall the way back to 2003, when YuGiOh was really starting to take off and the great "Tinzo" debacle that everyone claimed would be the death of YuGiOh happened. Before then, Konami didn't really reprint YuGiOh cards much, especially not the super expensive, high-demand ones. Then, one day, it was announced that they were releasing a $20 collector's tin that came with a few booster packs and a promo Jinzo, which was a $40+ card at the time and one of the most desired cards in the game. Everyone on the forums went crazy with the "oh no! Affordable cards! Yugioh is dying!!1" panic. People who bought Jinzo for it's high price tag threw out the typical BS that you see around here. "If you can't afford the card, don't play!", "no one will ever buy cards again because they'll be afraid of them becoming worthless over night!", "You shouldn't be able to have cheap cards because I don't want to lose money I invested in a hobby!", etc. Yugioh went on to adopt an extreme, ballsy reprint policy where they have no trouble reprinting $200 cards in a $15 starter deck. Yugioh also went on to become an extremely popular game that's still going strong today (I won't quote the "currently best-selling TCG" stat because I don't know if that's actually true).
By the way, Yugioh having no secondary market due to reprints isn't true. Last year I sold a damaged tournament pack 2 Morphing Jar for $90 on Ebay. That card has been reprinted at every rarity in Yugioh, even common. You can buy common copies for like $2 but look at that! The original is still worth over $100 in mint condition! Hell, there are COMMONS in Yugioh that sell for $5+ a piece.
I'm not saying Magic should be like Yugioh and reprint Goyfs and the like as commons in a $20 Modern event deck, but Goyf, Cryptic, Clique, Hierarch, Zen Fetches and Confidant should definitely get the Mutavault/Thoughtseize/Scooge/Enemy Fetches treatment and get a legit, mass reprinting that will reign in their prices to something reasonable (I'd consider $20-$30ish reasonable for a card like Goyf, the others should definitely be less). Wizards should continue to reprint high-demand and scarce cards to keep their prices in check (in check, I'm not saying every card should be $1...an extreme argument that a lot of pro-$100+ goyf posters use to marginalize anyone who wants reprints of expensive cards).
Modern Masters is a good idea and helps greatly with a lot of the low-hanging fruit, but the approach of making it limited print run, card shop only, $10 a pack, keep the most-desired reprints at mythic level so that their price actually rises instead of falling to keep "collectors" from getting pissed is flawed.
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- Arkmer
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Mar 6, 20154
Cephalopods posted a message on Magic Origins: Double faced planeswalkers. Liliana previewedI love that core set 2010 was about simplifying magic and core sets, and now the core set will die and with its last breath put these DFCs in standard with manifest.Posted in: The Rumor Mill
Trololol -
Sep 13, 2014
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Lauphiette Kincey posted a message on BUG ControlBeen skimming this thread and would like to address just a couple points.Posted in: Standard Archives
Control decks are ALWAYS built around a certain card in some shape or form. At least the good ones.
The recent control decks where built around rev, Esper walkers a couple formats ago was built around lingering souls(CA, Win-Con, and Stablizer that enabled the whole deck), and further back you have control decks built around jace, Stoneforge mystic, Mystical teachings, and Gifts ungiven. If build around is too strong a term, then try INCENTIVE. There needs to be a card that's an incentive for you to build your control deck.
Lets also talk about nissa and sidisi. Both cards are powerful. Both can be built around or simply thrown in a deck that can semi-reasonably support them and excel based on power level alone. What does nissa need to be good? Just blockers. If she stays in play long enough, you essentially make a stormbreath dragon every turn which closes games very quickly. As for Sidis, she just needs creatures and removal spells. Khamal Pointed out BBD's article and used some *****ty reasoning to talk about how Sidisi was bad when BBD in THE SAME ARTICLE talked about how good Sidisi is! Don't perpeptuate bull***** with selective reading!
Sidisi can rather easily be played in bug control as most BUG lists already start with something along the lines of 4 courser, 4 caryatid. Throw in 3 sidis, and you're half way there. Additionally, her abilities are very strong with or without support. People seem to be struggling against small agro and sidisi is good there. Making 2 bodies for 4 mana is a strong play and with any kind of support, you're getting much more then that. Not only do you get the bodies, you fuel delve. So far there are 2/3 compelling delve cards that a control deck would be interested in: Murderous cut, Dig through time, and Necropolis fiend. The fiend may or may not be what BUG wants to be doing, but dig through time is a premier draw spell that finally justifies blue aside from the multicolored cards and Cut is the best removal spell in the format when you can cast it for between 1 and 2 mana.
A very underrated card is nyx weaver. Why is this card good in control? It's basically a split card between an anti-agro wall and a mid/lategame tutor. It simultaneously fuels delve, and rebuys removal/counters/threats later. Seems great. Also combos with Sidisi.
Someone mentioned Polukranos. This card may or may not be fine. Lets analyze it. The first point in it's favor is that it's HUGE. While it may not seems like a control card, if yo're going through the trouble of playing caryatid in your deck, you need 4's worth playing and this is one of, if not the best 4 in the format. If you're at any reasonable life total when this comes online, it stonewalls aggressive decks while threatening to kill 1 or multiple creatures for free. Additionally, it's also a baneslayer angel. You can draw it, turn the corner and win the game. It's not like this card is bad in the late game since it's a giant manasink. If we care about the composition of the Block decks, I believe Reid played 1 or 2 of this in his top 8 list and that seems reasonable to me.
Back to Nissa, she's interesting. She closes games very quickly, but she also has vulnerabilities(like everything else before people start overly defending here). She gets murked by basically all the flying threats in the format making tapping out for nissa against any agro/midrange deck with red a risky proposition(there are 3 different hasty red creatures AND stoke the flames). She also basically only has 1 ability, though that ability is VERY strong and used 85% of the time in current standard where the jund decks actually play forests. The downside of this is that she only attacks and blocks. Take that how you will. I see her as good against non-red midrange decks.
Hope someone finds this useful. This doesn't necessarily have to be right or wrong, it's just what I've learned and used when brewing BUG decks for my gauntlet. Someone mentioned GP LA which I will be attending but I also have a 2k the day after release so I'd say I have more incentive to be learning the format. Happy brewing. -
Sep 13, 20141
TheUnrealOne posted a message on BUG ControlI actually like Nissa a lot more than Sidisi, but I'm pretty biased because I dislike the Sidisi plan entirely and still don't see how running a 50+% creature deck that clogs the board with zombie tokens is control.Posted in: Standard Archives
If Nissa lives, you know that you are getting a 4/4 trample every turn
If Sidisi lives, you might get a 2/2 zombie everytime she attacks (? sounds suicidal) or if you do some other type of mill (Sultai Ascendancy, Satyr Wayfinder etc).
I do see how she can be more defensive in that the zombie tokens are coming down earlier. But with rampant burn and probably increased usage of bile blight, it seems to get hosed far easier than 4/4 tramples.
If we are talking about being proactive & making threats, the 4/4 trample every turn is a pretty good way to do it.
Since we are discussing it, someone may as well post up the Sidisi list. Because while Jeskai, Mardu, Azbhan and Temur have developing threads several pages long, I have yet to see the Sultai thread building around their clan mechanics. If you think it's control then post it here. Otherwise it should be a new thread.
To me when you're dumping counters and removal for stuff like commune with the gods, nyx weaver, satyr wayfinder, and nighthowler, it's not at all control. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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rofl, that would be hilarious!
And the price PLUMMETS!! The reserved list is done for!! Legacy decks are now 100% Blue!! Headlines: Legacy bans entire color!! True-Name Nemesis players rejoice... then cry. Wizards replaces ruined color with Purple; Magic community confused, color pie in turmoil!!
Someone in the rumor thread before the official announcement talked about a Marvel style build up, a movie per Planeswalker, then OMG fight the BOLAS in epic final movie.
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Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but you seem to be taking this super seriously. This is the Opinions and Polls section. I just feel like a reminder was necessary. Swearing at me was uncalled for.
The Yu-Gi-Oh point was good, it's competing games just like competing formats. The difference about your argument is that Yu-Gi-Oh events are hosted just like MtG events, people know when they can show up and slap anything on the table to play. Now that's not true.
Your next two paragraphs are things I said. WotC doesn't make content exclusively for casual, but you can use Commander cards with casual as well.
Playing against the deck you listed is funny because I actually have a very similar deck, it sucks against dedicated burn decks because of the card advantage engines; it also folds to anything with a counterspell suite. Also, playing against Prossh decks makes me sick, I literally have not seen a Prossh deck go down without 3 players focusing on him from turn 1. I'm sure there are ways to beat Prossh as well, but it's not something I want to invest my money in doing; hence, Commander is a very "noob" unfriendly format. In Commander there are about 11 decent "Search your library" effects, so you can essentially run a Commander deck with the same consistency as a Standard deck to power out a "kill everyone" combo as fast as a Standard deck in a format that is put together to be deliberately slower.
I've not done the math about more value than the MRSP, that's actually a pretty cool thing that WotC is doing to promote their product. Benefits both players and company, I can't argue that, I won't argue that. You're probably right. That doesn't make the format more friendly or social.
BTW, I'd be impressed with a dedicated Octopus Tribal deck.
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If you want to stick to attacking and Crystalline Sliver, go for lords and either of the Double Strike Slivers. Trample, Lifelink are obvious auto includes as well.
Just find what you need from //gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?output=spoiler&method=visual&page=0&type=+[Sliver">||subtype%3d+[Sliver]"]here. There is a Sliver for very nearly everything.
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The way I see it, you must include 4 Gemhide Sliver/Mana-who-its, and 4 Homing Sliver in any Sliver deck. That way you can get your mana fixed ASAP and then find/play any sliver in your deck ASAP. You really only need 1 of every other sliver, because after that it's all about tool boxing your deck together; at that point you can get multiples of what you want to make it more consistent. Once you acquire Haste the mana ramp gets to be pretty insane.
My Sliver deck uses Dormant Sliver, Gemhide Sliver, and Heart Sliver to basically play the deck out in a Flash. Since I can't attack with with my deck, I use Psionic Sliver as my win condition and Screeching Sliver as my alternate. And to be really annoying I use Enchanted Evening with Harmonic Sliver to blow up boards. But my deck doesn't attack.
Pulmonic Sliver in case of board wipe. And yes, Quick Sliver + Homing Sliver makes this instant speed board "save". Ghostflame Sliver + All is Dust for style points.
Add Basal Sliver to your deck for infinite Sliver tokens with Gemhide + Basal + Heart + Queen.