MTG Salvation

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Quote from CatParty »

Quote from idSurge »

I would hope it never goes beyond things like Pridemate then. I doubt, deeply, that if Wizards has even thought about this, that they would consider the ramifications to Legacy and Modern.

It would (will?) be beyond obnoxious.

If people find this thread unbearable now, let's start thinking about us fighting over 1 mana difference, or 1 toughness.

No thanks.

I understand Ajani's Pridemate was errata'd to be a "MUST" ability - but what was the cause of this? Did it screw with the program's system, or the game play?

Things like this have back and forth game play ramifications that bother me. Take just Pridemate, for example, if I know I'm playing around a Citywide Bust, I may not want to take the advantage of those +1/+1 counters. Not all advantages are advantages in all cases; I had this come up like a month ago with WAR when I proliferated one of my opponent's creatures into a 4/4 to Despark it (or something while Drafting).

I'm just not sure all these things should be messed with even when you think it's taking the advantage, that "may" is a very powerful word.

I like this direction.

Also a reason for me to want to keep playing Grixis. I'm 100% on for the Awakened Inferno.

I'm not yet on the ban wagon for this one, but I do think it's really annoying that they keep printing "0cmc" things for graveyard decks. Now we have everything from 2/1s, 3/3s, and 3/2 fliers to an 8/8, back down to 2/2 token swarm that in some lists for no reason turns into a 9/7 for R as well as a 4/3 haste in a random color, now we're looking at the potential for T2 mill with grave strategy back up. But SFM is still banned? Counterspell is too good? We can only allow one flavor of control and it's UW? Give me a break.

Hogaak is probably just another passing phase, but they keep printing the same stuff that keeps getting this "WHOA, IT'S FREE, BROKEN META FOR SIX MONTHS BECAUSE NOT ENOUGH TOURNAMENT RESULTS"* and always in the same strategy (graveyard) and it's getting tiring. I admit they did actually ban KCI, but they epicly failed to recognize that hate cards like RIP and Void are getting out paced by yard strategies once they figure out the play pattern. It's still happening. We've seen Dredge vine win T2 against RIP, regular dredge pull out wins against good solid hate, Phoenix ignore it and win with other angles because "xerox" (like hard casting a Phoenix because you have low removal now). And now they think they'll just print an 8/8 that's psudo free AND give it a new win angle in mill!? How is this different?

After Hogaak is adequately hated out of the meta, I can't wait for them to print the next grave strategy that we have to lament over for the next 3-6 months despite me owning literally all of the grave hate relevant to anyone (I even went out of my way to get 4 Withered Wretch) and for no reason other than WotC "forgot it breaks things". Remember when you had to pay for things? Remember when the benefit from playing land was that you could generate more mana? Well now it's that you get two 2/1s, a couple 3/3s, and maybe an 8/8. Remember when the text on spells mattered beyond "cantrip"? Well, doesn't matter now because you get a few 3/2 flying haste! Counterspell kills diversity, but if I smack my deck full of "draw a card" I can play 3 of the exact same creature every game for 6 months.

I'll admit that control got some toys. We got some powerful things. But where is the free stuff? Azcanta is a T2 do nothing. Jace, as we've all found out, is pretty fragile. Teferi comes into play after you're dead. Veto is a card that only polices control, so it's awesome that control now pushes itself out of the meta. Archmage's Charm is pretty middling to bad. Force of Negation? Good sideboard tech against niche decks. Where is my removal that I can use every time I play a land? Why can't I cast Essence Scatter every time I cast 3 spells? Snapcaster? You know that costs actual mana, right? And then I still have to pay for the spell!

Tired of graveyards. Tired of free. Tired of being told "you're getting powerful things" only to watch it receive minimal testing at release and no one pay it a second thought.

/rant

*Not trying to shoot at ktk, btw, just how they ban things or how long it takes the meta to adjust.

I apologize. I would expect downvotes, but as a great king once said "We, we don't do that here."

Graveyard hate is just the new discard because so many decks use it so effectively. That means removal is often just a bunch of Unsummons with differing costs. Exile is still the only actual removal.

Then there are decks that ignore this completely. Removal is removal against Humans, for example.

Just doesn't line up well. If graveyard hate was relevant against everyone- or even the vast majority, people wouldn't be so shy to mainboard it. That's why we start seeing 1-2 main when a deck creeps into ridiculous territory. I think we'll see some of that with Hogaak for awhile until it calms down, but I do think it's sort of funny that we have barely a weekend gone by of it's legality and it's being called for banning. If it continues this way? Ya, I'll jump on board, but not after a weekend.

I sort of have three reactions to this.

1) I think this is a wonderful addition to the format. I hope it continues the march toward preventing non-games.

2) If combo becomes degenerate and they do ban it out of existence, then I default back to #1.

3) If combo does become degenerate and they do nothing about it, then this is the exact reason I was very against a Force of Will type card originally. While I am happy to see the whole cycle, I do fear that it has paved the way for it to be a requirement and for more degenerate things to be printed.

Overall I think the rule change is good. While I can see that it probably pushes some decks harder than it pushes other decks, I do think there were other steps taken have a more direct impact on the allowance of such combo to exist. While I have nothing against combo, I do have thoughts about the T4 rule.

Quote from BlazingRagnarok »

Except this set will impact modern more than most standard sets, and it undoubtedly contains cards that would never see the light of standard. Expecting something that just about everybody knows would be acceptable in modern such as Counterspellis one thing, but some people's expectations involved some of the most powerful cards in Legacy such as Force of Will and True-Name Nemesis, which absolutely nothing in that interview supports. There's a whole lot of space between putting out a set that is pushed compared to standard and turning Modern into some kind of no-RL Legacy.

Players have every right to be disappointed about this product's pricing or the lack of personal favorite cards, but we were never, from the start, entitled to seeing the Legacy-caliber cards around which many players based their expectations.

How effective the set is compared to a Standard set is clearly up for debate but the fact that it's even debatable is really frustrating to people; I'm just trying to establish where the set expectations could have come from.

As for people wanting Force of Will, Wasteland, TNN, and Black Lotus, I'm not giving sanctuary what actual predictions people made. I'm just pointing out a WotC announcement that hypes up the set as something that will impact Modern more than a Standard set.

Quote from ktkenshinx »

I want to pose to you the same question I posed to others: where did your hyped expectations come from?

I went back and rewatched the announcement and they literally say (@14:48) "you don't have to worry about putting cards that are too broken into Standard. They can just skip into where they're meant to be" then the other two just agree, then they name a couple cards that have made a difference in Modern. Then @21:03 Nassif, "... as you were saying, sets generally don't have that big of an impact on Modern. Maybe 5ish cards can break through and make an impact because for whatever reason in the context of Modern they are more powerful than in the context of Standard, so there are things that can be printed into Standard safely while being powerful in Modern, but the majority of the time it's tough to do that. With this set you can just push the boundaries completely" then goes on to describe some things that would be too much for Standard (despite WotC admittedly considering Counterspell for Standard).

On the other hand... The dude in red does temper Nassif's statement a bit by saying that Nassif doesn't know what's in the set. Then after the cards are revealed, the guy in Blue says, "...an opportunity to deliver a bunch of stuff from a creative, or flavor, or mechanical direction that we've been wanting to do for awhile but couldn't find a place... Of course we try to fit them into Standard if we can but there's alot of ways that they can't. Either for complexity or the wrong audience and the answer just has to be 'no'".

I mostly wanted to include that first paragraph to show that the initial announcement of the set does set a power level expectation in the vein of "this will impact Modern more than a Standard set" and "we can print things that are too good for Standard". You can argue that all that doesn't matter because of the statements in the second paragraph, but frankly they don't actually relate to reining in the power level expectations that have now been set on an official WotC announcement.

Maybe there are more relevant quotes, maybe not. But evidence has been provided.

What's the expected amount of cards from a Standard set expected to impact Modern? Like 1 to 4? WAR certainly seems above average, and that might be contributing to the disappointed feelings. I think apart from the Canopy Lands, there are probably 4 to 6 cards that will impact Modern immediately and probably some more that will become important if they print the right tools. I think that's pretty good to be honest.

Am I disappointed? Ya. Do I know better? Ya. Do I care that I know better? no...

This makes me happy. I will find a home for this.

"[MH1] - Mirrodin Besieged"

H-how are they putting the whole set of MBS into MH1? Oh, it's a Dragons vs Khans style card, neat! "... loses the game..."- what thee actual hell?

Goes in Whir as a side card or as a 1 of alternate win? I don't see Affinity wanting this and can't think of any other Modern decks that would care for this unless Lantern returns. Too bad Lattice doesn't make everything in all zones Artifacts, just makes them colorless.

No, the non-black clause is a fairly big deal. Just a complete non-card against GDS and anything else trying to abuse Gurmag. 1 isn't a big deal, to be honest. Especially if it's keeping you safe from a reasonable part of whatever meta you're in.

I'm pretty high on Kaya's Guile right now. Many are pointing at Edict + Exile, but I think Edict + 4 life is way better. Control is often just trying to scrape by at this point in the game and that combination is pretty good. The 1/1 is probably fairly useless outside desperation, but the Exile is a handy mainboard hate option in the right situations. I think the Entwine is mostly a trap or very win-more.

As a predominantly UBx player I'm not high on seeing White get more good things, but I do like this card. Could have been BG.

Lavinia, Azorius Renegade: "BE GONE, EVIL!!"

"She does this every turn..."

Can Dredge even handle packing this into it's list? I'm not overly familiar with the deck's finer points, but I would assume it has limited flex spots and they're more concerned with anti-hate than this.