Im in the 0 Serra Avenger camp. 2 Fiendslayer paladin take the stabilizer role, I seen that lifelink is better than vigilance at that.
Get your jitte strap him 100% worry free (except for plow) and run over the game. It will take a 5 toughness creature to stand tow with a 2/2 first striker jitte. Not to mention it doesn't get road block by baleful strix and is caverns friendly.
That is getting towards the guy we need, but still not quite there yet for me. The ideal creature needs (some of):
good with a sword
evasion (flying?)
lifelink (to help recover from early hits)
tutorable (is a bonus)
human (good synergy with Caverns)
Perhaps Kaladesh could give us a flying vehicle that we could power with our disruptive ground creatures.
They did already. For 2 mana is as good as it gets.
Stonecloaker is awesome; did you miss the built-in Flash? In Imperial, whenever I had a Recruiter in hand and wasn't quite sure what to dig up with it (there are MANY instances where this isn't 100% clear if you run a toolbox, because the game state might progress in a way that makes a wholly different creature the solution you are looking for), I very often went for Kor Skyfisher. Stonecloaker arguably is miles better than Skyfisher, and is just as much of a no-brainer to recruit for, since you'll (probably) get to replay the effect. The included GY hate is the icing on the cake.
I'd also like to point out that as far as beaters go, you might want to consider Epochrasite as a one-of. It's awesome against everything that isn't white.
Thanks for the thoughts! I agree Stonecloaker is great, and often better than Skyfisher. The problem is that Flickerwisp is also better than Skyfisher, and is usually better than Stonecloaker, and is also a tutor target, and is already in the deck. So the question I keep going back to is why Stonecloaker now?
Do we need 5+ tutorable bounce effects? If that's the case, then Stonecloaker makes some sense (e.g. over Resto or Skyfisher). I'm just not sure that's the case. Do we need 5+ tutorable fliers? If so, there are many other options than Stonecloaker. Do we need a wider spread of tutorable effects? If so, there are even more options outside of Stonecloaker.
Im using stonecloaker in lieu of the 4th flickerwisp because is tutor able and provides the extra utility:
1. GY hate at instant speed
2. Save a creature W/O vial
3. Re- buys ETB triggers W/O targeting
Before it would have been a good one card random off, but now that we can search it I believe it makes it better.
After some in house testing. This is going to be my deck-list for REL competition as of right now. I have done some non-traditional cuts to fit the recruiter package, along with adding some non typical DNT cards. Im no PRO-player or hardcore grinder (Got a life). But I have some experience years playing this in Modern and Legacy. Short summary of my proposed changes.
-1 Thalia, heretic cathar: I have never tutor for this with a recruiter. She does very little in the mid late game. I think she might lose her job altogether one of these days.
-1 Stoneforge: Since we can tutor for it, I think we can afford to cut 1 on G1.
-1 Sword of this/that: Maybe is just me, but most times Im fetching my first equipment is either jitte or batterskull. The sword is more of a secondary or last option. I decided to put it on the board. To compensate I have raise the "Death" level of the deck by adding a strong suit first strikers to go along with jitte to push thru goyfs/baleful strix or what not.
+1 Stonecloaker: I play this MB in my modern DnT and he is very good. He is here in lieu of the 4th flicker wisp and he adds a lot of versatility. GY hate, save a dude, re-buy a creature without targeting is huge and has evasion. In fair games where we doing the "flicker-hawk" plan. I be getting this instead of the 1st flickerwisp. Play it with a recruiter, splicer, stoneforge or wisp on board and make ur opponent blink on his end step with mom/canonist protection.
+1 Blade splicer: Awesome flicker target for fair games, 2 bodies for 4 PWR, 3/3 First strike colorless is awesome in the mirror among other hate.
You guys worry to much about belcher, Tin fins and glass cannon super fast decks. Those decks rarely go off T1 and as consistent as legacy combo decks are sometimes they lose to themselves. If they go off T1 and win so be it. You can play delver and never have the FoW the few times this happens, is all variance.
I believe the most powerful play in legacy is T1 Deathrite shaman. Fair decks is where I see I get most my losses.
What decks is Fiendslayer Paladin good against other than Burn and Grixis? Please advise
I believe that red removal is the most common in legacy. But to answer your question you have; Jund, Lands (punishing fire), BUG decks, OK vs jeskai decks among others.
I tested Elvish spirit as acceleration a few years ago when I was playing G/W taxes. It was very 50/50 sometimes they were just 2/2 bears, use 1 to pay for a daze other times I got the T1 Thalia but still lost. I decided to do without them. I was at the invitational and played in the Legacy classic and would like to make a few notes.
1. Thalia 2: I ran 2 copies main always resolve due to 2 caverns MD. When she came in she did her thing lands came tapped, dudes came tapped she bashed for 3 unopposed, but when the dust settled I was still the one eating crow in some of those games. I feel like I wanna cut 1 to fit the recruiter package better.
2. Fiend Slayer paladin: I ran 1 copy main and he over-perform BIG! I play vs burn first 2 rounds, when 1-1. But vs other decks he was the dude I want it to see every time and equip worry free. I'll b running 2 in the main now, Lifelink is still super relevant.
3. Ethersworn canonis: MVP of the deck. I ran 2 in the main along with 3 Thalia 1.0. She always resolved (caverns) and she was huge. It very easy for an opponent to solve the mom puzzle with 2 removal spells, canonist stops that. You also get free wins vs the right match ups. She won me a long game vs grixis delver with a T1 dread of night. Every time he went to kill it a vial a insta dead flickerwisp to save it until the equipment came. Delver decks cant do 1 spell at the time.
4. Eldrazi displacer: I ran 2 main and he was good but,Im gonna cut him as part of testing recruiter. I think sanctum prelate is gonna be very good vs fair matches that usually go grindy. Against those decks we just wanna go creature vs creature combat but their support spells is what beat us.
Moving forward this will be my 3 drop selection cutting 1 stoneforge w/ 4 moms.
I'm not sold on cutting Mom at 3; only 7 cards for turn 1 plays?
According to my taste, 8 is the least, and even so I would like to have 10 1-drops, that's way I play 2 Judge's Familiar.
This card can do a lot against the decks for which you are suggesting to use the Prelate.
What would be the gameplan? Sitting there and watch till the second or third turn? Then what can you tutor for re-establishing the field?
While waiting for the third land, we can only use Rishadan Port to contrast the opponent, for sure not Wasteland.
Is this a solid curve?
Take for example Goblins (which I actually play). It goes Vial or Lackey or mulligan. It has Matron, it has some silver bullets, it has Wasteland and Port, it is somehow similar to D&T, but it doesn't rise the curve so much. 8 1-drops are vital.
Time and testing will tell, currently we can only suggest decklist to start with, but nothing more.
I agree that some folks are getting blinded by the new shiny cards. I run 8-9 3 drops and I been thru countless games in which Im unable to play those cards.
I used to play G/W taxes with 4 nobles and 4 vials and STILL got mana screw by delver decks. All I know is that Death N Taxes is gonna be on the rise and the greedier people get with 3 drops and non-basics. The more vulnerable they be in the mirror vs the more "stock" list.
Im not drinking the Kool-Aid kids, tell your Moma Im staying true... to the power of love!
1. 4 Moms, No cuts!
2. 0 Sanctum Prelate in the main, 1 in board.
3. No more than 10 3 drops.
4. 0 Recruiter of the Guard in the main, 2 or 3 in the board with a dedicated toolbox.
Im gonna preach!
This is Death and taxes people. You never skimp on the death side of it.
Sagamore you may be right about recruiter being a little slow and walking into counter magic, but we basically have the same problem now with Stoneforge and Thought Knot and Cabal therapy, and it doesn't make Stoneforge bad.
Also, I think with how heavy D&T will be on humans I think 2 cavern of souls is very reasonable (or even 3?? Probably crazy but worth testing)
I currently run 12 humans since the addition of Thalia 2.0 with 2 caverns and seems good.
You are right about Stoneforge, but how cringing is the feeling when that stoneforge gets daze on T2. That is a HUGE tempo loss vs daze decks that you might never recover off (obviously no vial). How many times have u sandbagged a stoneforge in respect to a daze. I already lost count (albeit I run one if I have multiples). But as bad as getting a 2 drop counter a 3 drop that is unacceptable then you just lose.
On the humans build I surely cut 1 stoneforge rather than Mom which people are fond of doing these days. With 3/4 caverns I think the human deck might have legs.
Note: I just saw Sanctum Prelate. I think thats more a sideboard card vs dirty/unfair decks. Maybe ok vs midrange. Not main worthy.
I agree with all of that against fast, unfair type decks, but as a DnT player, Im not scared of the T1 Belcher or T2 Elesh Norn... enter scoop phase. What makes me poop my shorts are the other fair decks the Jund, Grixis delver, BUG whatever. Thalia 1 is nothing but a mild inconvenience vs those decks that is gonna eat a removal fast. This is what I know is gonna happen:
T3 recruiter (opponent let is resolve and save his counter)Opp develops his board
T4 Play the 3 drop that u fetch, opponent counters it..sad face. Opp develops his board further now u are way behind
You just spent 2 turns on that maneuver and all you have is a 1/1 vanilla on board. All of these of course is with no Vial, if we have a vial we are living the dream. But I believe there is a solution and that is a human heavy build with human type silver bullets supported by at least 3 caverns.
Side Note: I think that Imperial Taxes was a much weaker and softer version of DnT that casually posted results. Most seasoned DnT/Pro players have stick with the mono-white version for that reason I believe.
What I dont like about these heavy recruiter builds is that with no vial, they are just gonna be to slow. Feeling like to little to late to whatever you fetch.
Imperial taxes got magus who can single handedly shut the game out. But what white 3 drop can shut the game out in a fair match up like that.
This is from building and playing the deck in competition. Geist is a trap stay away from him we are not aggro, using a flickerwisp to keep him alives is losing value. V.clique as a one off is ok but is too heavy on the mana.
Personally Im super glad they ban cruise and pod specially. We all knew birthing pod was just a matter of time. Birthing pod pushed all other creature decks out of the competitive format. I wouldn't have mind dig through time in the format.
So, whats the thoughts so far on adding in black? Worth it or just go pod?
I think if we add black we still lose to pod for free like we always do. Is a shame that birthing pod is the only thing keeping this from being a tier 1 deck. The deck has just too many angles.
Im in the 0 Serra Avenger camp. 2 Fiendslayer paladin take the stabilizer role, I seen that lifelink is better than vigilance at that.
Get your jitte strap him 100% worry free (except for plow) and run over the game. It will take a 5 toughness creature to stand tow with a 2/2 first striker jitte. Not to mention it doesn't get road block by baleful strix and is caverns friendly.
They did already. For 2 mana is as good as it gets.
Smuggler's Copter
Im using stonecloaker in lieu of the 4th flickerwisp because is tutor able and provides the extra utility:
1. GY hate at instant speed
2. Save a creature W/O vial
3. Re- buys ETB triggers W/O targeting
Before it would have been a good one card random off, but now that we can search it I believe it makes it better.
After some in house testing. This is going to be my deck-list for REL competition as of right now. I have done some non-traditional cuts to fit the recruiter package, along with adding some non typical DNT cards. Im no PRO-player or hardcore grinder (Got a life). But I have some experience years playing this in Modern and Legacy. Short summary of my proposed changes.
-1 Thalia, heretic cathar: I have never tutor for this with a recruiter. She does very little in the mid late game. I think she might lose her job altogether one of these days.
-1 Stoneforge: Since we can tutor for it, I think we can afford to cut 1 on G1.
-1 Sword of this/that: Maybe is just me, but most times Im fetching my first equipment is either jitte or batterskull. The sword is more of a secondary or last option. I decided to put it on the board. To compensate I have raise the "Death" level of the deck by adding a strong suit first strikers to go along with jitte to push thru goyfs/baleful strix or what not.
+1 Stonecloaker: I play this MB in my modern DnT and he is very good. He is here in lieu of the 4th flicker wisp and he adds a lot of versatility. GY hate, save a dude, re-buy a creature without targeting is huge and has evasion. In fair games where we doing the "flicker-hawk" plan. I be getting this instead of the 1st flickerwisp. Play it with a recruiter, splicer, stoneforge or wisp on board and make ur opponent blink on his end step with mom/canonist protection.
+1 Blade splicer: Awesome flicker target for fair games, 2 bodies for 4 PWR, 3/3 First strike colorless is awesome in the mirror among other hate.
3 flickerwisp
1 stone cloaker
2 recruiter of the guard
2 fiendslayer paladin
1 thalia, heretic cathar
1 mirran crusader
1 sanctum prelate
1 blade splicer
3 phyrexian revoker
3 stoneforge mystic
2 ethersworn canonist
4 mother of runes
Spell: 10
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
1 batterskull
1 umezawa jitte
2 cavern of souls
2 karakas
4 wasteland
3 rishadan port
1 ghost quarter
10 plains
1 horizon canopy
You guys worry to much about belcher, Tin fins and glass cannon super fast decks. Those decks rarely go off T1 and as consistent as legacy combo decks are sometimes they lose to themselves. If they go off T1 and win so be it. You can play delver and never have the FoW the few times this happens, is all variance.
I believe the most powerful play in legacy is T1 Deathrite shaman. Fair decks is where I see I get most my losses.
I believe that red removal is the most common in legacy. But to answer your question you have; Jund, Lands (punishing fire), BUG decks, OK vs jeskai decks among others.
I tested Elvish spirit as acceleration a few years ago when I was playing G/W taxes. It was very 50/50 sometimes they were just 2/2 bears, use 1 to pay for a daze other times I got the T1 Thalia but still lost. I decided to do without them. I was at the invitational and played in the Legacy classic and would like to make a few notes.
1. Thalia 2: I ran 2 copies main always resolve due to 2 caverns MD. When she came in she did her thing lands came tapped, dudes came tapped she bashed for 3 unopposed, but when the dust settled I was still the one eating crow in some of those games. I feel like I wanna cut 1 to fit the recruiter package better.
2. Fiend Slayer paladin: I ran 1 copy main and he over-perform BIG! I play vs burn first 2 rounds, when 1-1. But vs other decks he was the dude I want it to see every time and equip worry free. I'll b running 2 in the main now, Lifelink is still super relevant.
3. Ethersworn canonis: MVP of the deck. I ran 2 in the main along with 3 Thalia 1.0. She always resolved (caverns) and she was huge. It very easy for an opponent to solve the mom puzzle with 2 removal spells, canonist stops that. You also get free wins vs the right match ups. She won me a long game vs grixis delver with a T1 dread of night. Every time he went to kill it a vial a insta dead flickerwisp to save it until the equipment came. Delver decks cant do 1 spell at the time.
4. Eldrazi displacer: I ran 2 main and he was good but,Im gonna cut him as part of testing recruiter. I think sanctum prelate is gonna be very good vs fair matches that usually go grindy. Against those decks we just wanna go creature vs creature combat but their support spells is what beat us.
Moving forward this will be my 3 drop selection cutting 1 stoneforge w/ 4 moms.
3 flickerwisp
2 thalia 2.0 (might cut 1 in future)
2 fiendslayer paladin
2 recruiter
1 blade splicer
1 sanctum prelate
I agree that some folks are getting blinded by the new shiny cards. I run 8-9 3 drops and I been thru countless games in which Im unable to play those cards.
I used to play G/W taxes with 4 nobles and 4 vials and STILL got mana screw by delver decks. All I know is that Death N Taxes is gonna be on the rise and the greedier people get with 3 drops and non-basics. The more vulnerable they be in the mirror vs the more "stock" list.
Im not drinking the Kool-Aid kids, tell your Moma Im staying true... to the power of love!
1. 4 Moms, No cuts!
2. 0 Sanctum Prelate in the main, 1 in board.
3. No more than 10 3 drops.
4. 0 Recruiter of the Guard in the main, 2 or 3 in the board with a dedicated toolbox.
Im gonna preach!
This is Death and taxes people. You never skimp on the death side of it.
I currently run 12 humans since the addition of Thalia 2.0 with 2 caverns and seems good.
You are right about Stoneforge, but how cringing is the feeling when that stoneforge gets daze on T2. That is a HUGE tempo loss vs daze decks that you might never recover off (obviously no vial). How many times have u sandbagged a stoneforge in respect to a daze. I already lost count (albeit I run one if I have multiples). But as bad as getting a 2 drop counter a 3 drop that is unacceptable then you just lose.
On the humans build I surely cut 1 stoneforge rather than Mom which people are fond of doing these days. With 3/4 caverns I think the human deck might have legs.
Note: I just saw Sanctum Prelate. I think thats more a sideboard card vs dirty/unfair decks. Maybe ok vs midrange. Not main worthy.
I agree with all of that against fast, unfair type decks, but as a DnT player, Im not scared of the T1 Belcher or T2 Elesh Norn... enter scoop phase. What makes me poop my shorts are the other fair decks the Jund, Grixis delver, BUG whatever. Thalia 1 is nothing but a mild inconvenience vs those decks that is gonna eat a removal fast. This is what I know is gonna happen:
T3 recruiter (opponent let is resolve and save his counter)Opp develops his board
T4 Play the 3 drop that u fetch, opponent counters it..sad face. Opp develops his board further now u are way behind
You just spent 2 turns on that maneuver and all you have is a 1/1 vanilla on board. All of these of course is with no Vial, if we have a vial we are living the dream. But I believe there is a solution and that is a human heavy build with human type silver bullets supported by at least 3 caverns.
Side Note: I think that Imperial Taxes was a much weaker and softer version of DnT that casually posted results. Most seasoned DnT/Pro players have stick with the mono-white version for that reason I believe.
What I dont like about these heavy recruiter builds is that with no vial, they are just gonna be to slow. Feeling like to little to late to whatever you fetch.
Imperial taxes got magus who can single handedly shut the game out. But what white 3 drop can shut the game out in a fair match up like that.
The splash of blue for WGu has been researched and develop before many pages ago in here. The most powerful and only cards to splash for are:
- Phantasmal image
- Mulldrifter
- Celestial Colonnade
This is from building and playing the deck in competition. Geist is a trap stay away from him we are not aggro, using a flickerwisp to keep him alives is losing value. V.clique as a one off is ok but is too heavy on the mana.
I think if we add black we still lose to pod for free like we always do. Is a shame that birthing pod is the only thing keeping this from being a tier 1 deck. The deck has just too many angles.