I would like to see Dread Return come off the banned list. I think it would open up a new generation of Dredge Reanimator style decks. Modern lacks many of the key cards that Legacy Dredge uses to become the degenerate power house. Without cards like Ichorid, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Lion's Eye Diamond, Cephalid Coliseum, and not to forget one of the best card Dredge has ever seen, Cabal Therapy Dredge isn't a deck.
I think opening up Dread Return to the Modern format could be very interesting without being overpowering.
Game 1s we never mulligan....unless your on the Force of Will plan I guess...
If your sideboard (or mainboard) is packing hate, Games 2-3 it's possible to mulligan. However, if you suspect they have little hate and you have a REALLY good opener sans antihate cards and they still elect to play first after realizing your Manaless Dredge, I would keep it.
I never mul game one. When I do mul in game two it is selective and I am still packing Unmasks in the main.
Blue Manaless is like no other manaless build. It is more skill intensive than all the others I have played.
You discard during the cleanup step, which is after the end step, not part of it. This is really key because it means your opponent cannot respond until their turn (i.e. they miss an untap on their Deathrite Shaman or Relic of Progenitus)
Whirlpool Rider for 3-4 cards is not a majority of your deck. That's 9 to 24 cards, assuming you replace each draw with a dredge.
I've finally settled on what Legacy deck that I want to play, obviously Manaless Dredge, after stumbling around a few crappy budget decks. This deck is just a ton of fun, and like nothing I've ever played before, plus being able to sac my creatures for effects and get more creatures back, and just straight up win is amazing.
I've been goldfishing with the deck for a few days, and I'm extremely certain that this is the deck I want to play for a good long while.
As a newcomer to the deck, are there any articles/ posts that I drastically need to read to get a better handle on the deck?
I already know that I'm not a fan of a starting 7 without a Dredge-r, even less so a starting 8 without one, and as such I'm not super sure how to mulligan. I know that mulliganing should be kept to a very small minimum since we need to discard, but what do I do in the small percentage that I don't have a Dredge card?
Thanks for all the reading that this thread is going to give me!
Check some of the videos I just posted.
On the Mulligan topic. I normally choose to keep even if I do not have a Dredger. Dredgers make up about 25% of the deck, you are bound to run into one very soon. There are "Special Cases" that I will Mulligan however, but those are very specific to situations. If you ever move into the Blue Dredge build you will have to learn a whole new system for keeping and Mulliganing.
I hope you all missed Manaless playing at the SCG on camera. Cabal Therapys would have won game one. Dredging Nether Shadows the right way would have won game two much faster. It should have been 2-0 but he lost 1-2...
If you are going to take Manaless to a SCG Open, please please please learn the deck.
To those who don't know:
When you dredge, all the cards enter the graveyard at the same time. You can put them in in any order.
I like to leave my graveyard compressed rather than splayed out all over the table. I treat it like a second deck in terms of physical presentation (but face up). When I dredge, I flip over the correct number of cards separately from everything else, order the cards as I choose, and point out any triggers (ex: Narcomoeba). Then I add those cards to the graveyard, which is still in a nice, neat pile. When I want to examine my graveyard, I set my hand down, pick up the graveyard, and look through it like I would a hand.
The key thing here is to resolve your dredge effect all at once. You choose the order whenever multiple cards are put in the graveyard at the same time, so you should almost always put Nether Shadow at the bottom, giving him the best chance to trigger. The same goes for whenever you discard Nether Shadow to Phantasmagorian.
This is what your getting at.
404.3. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.
I hope you all missed Manaless playing at the SCG on camera. Cabal Therapys would have won game one. Dredging Nether Shadows the right way would have won game two much faster. It should have been 2-0 but he lost 1-2...
If you are going to take Manaless to a SCG Open, please please please learn the deck.
I'm trying the deck out because I want to play Legacy.
I won game 1 against some UW thingie, and he boarded in and play T1 Grafdigger's Cage and T2 Rest in Peace.
How does this deck handle that? It gotta be a way because it won in Cincinatti, right? It can't be that easy to stop?
Honestly, it comes down to luck and speed sometimes. The Dryad and Blue builds have countermeasures, but in small Meta's Manaless gets hated out pretty hard.
At SCG Milwaukee on October I played a Spy list and was able to places 40th without seeing any real hate. Earlier this month I played a Legacy Open Trial and went undefeated with my Blue Dredge and to counter three pieces of hate in 4 rounds. The next day at the Legacy Open I won round one against Reanimator.(One of the best games I have ever played) After that it all went down hill when the next three people I played happened to be Manaless players that where not playing Manaless that day and I couldn't keep up with the hate. Same day, same event Caleb Calhoun placed top 8 with a Spy list. It kinda comes down to luck.
Feline was visiting me in the midwest a couple days ago so we did a High Tide Deck Tech for my channel. I will just leave this here for you guys. Deck Tech with Feline Longmore
Bwahaha! I actually know Jeremy. He showed up to that event with one of those folded up rule sheets from the Fat Packs. During the match's he would put it out and start reading it out loud. Things like the combat step and explain that he just started playing two days ago. (I doubt revised was two days ago.) Then we would combo out for the win. lol
On the Bribery I was told he actually used it against Reanimator to use there own Griselbrand against them to combo out.
In games against a fist full of counter magic where the game 2 will be a grind hard games. Many decks have FoWs, Daze's, Spell Pierce's and even Miracles is now packing 2 Red Elemental Blast in the main and 2 in the side. When LED Dredge looses it is often game 2 and 3 where it went like this. Counter, Counter, Wasteland. Then they try to drop their hate. In a lot of games LED Dredge players will bring in Ashen Ghoul, 2x lands and cards like Firestorm or Darkblast that will allow you to set up your dredging regardless if that spell resolves.
Ok, its 5am here, I've been up since 9am spending most of the day decorating, so I could be overtired and being dumb, but how does REB do anything significant vs dredge? Most of the time we have 4 blue permanents and 7 blue spells in the deck. I get the others, but using REB to fight dredge feels like using Null Rod vs High Tide. While they theoretically do something, what they do is usually gonna be insignificant.
It counters Breakthrough, and Careful Study. That is 8 spells in Quadlazer. I only brought it up because it is a 1cmc counterspell that has become very popular in many decks including RUG Delver, Miracles, UR Delver and Painter. It is actually very bad for us in game two when we are on the draw.
I think opening up Dread Return to the Modern format could be very interesting without being overpowering.
Thoughts?
LotV is only seen in about 3.2% of decks. Those numbers may vary depending on your meta.
I never mul game one. When I do mul in game two it is selective and I am still packing Unmasks in the main.
Blue Manaless is like no other manaless build. It is more skill intensive than all the others I have played.
I will with Blue Manaless, but that depends on the matchup.
If you already Dredger 2 or 3 time it is.
Older Manaless Deck Tech
Blue Dredge
Combo Explained
Game Play, Game One
Game Play, Game Two
Game Play, Game Three
Check some of the videos I just posted.
On the Mulligan topic. I normally choose to keep even if I do not have a Dredger. Dredgers make up about 25% of the deck, you are bound to run into one very soon. There are "Special Cases" that I will Mulligan however, but those are very specific to situations. If you ever move into the Blue Dredge build you will have to learn a whole new system for keeping and Mulliganing.
Just started altering a three days ago. This is my newest.
This is what your getting at.
404.3. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.
If you are going to take Manaless to a SCG Open, please please please learn the deck.
In that match up it is better, but milling into a Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite isn't going to win against Reanimator.
Honestly, it comes down to luck and speed sometimes. The Dryad and Blue builds have countermeasures, but in small Meta's Manaless gets hated out pretty hard.
At SCG Milwaukee on October I played a Spy list and was able to places 40th without seeing any real hate. Earlier this month I played a Legacy Open Trial and went undefeated with my Blue Dredge and to counter three pieces of hate in 4 rounds. The next day at the Legacy Open I won round one against Reanimator.(One of the best games I have ever played) After that it all went down hill when the next three people I played happened to be Manaless players that where not playing Manaless that day and I couldn't keep up with the hate. Same day, same event Caleb Calhoun placed top 8 with a Spy list. It kinda comes down to luck.
Deck Tech with Feline Longmore
On the Bribery I was told he actually used it against Reanimator to use there own Griselbrand against them to combo out.
It counters Breakthrough, and Careful Study. That is 8 spells in Quadlazer. I only brought it up because it is a 1cmc counterspell that has become very popular in many decks including RUG Delver, Miracles, UR Delver and Painter. It is actually very bad for us in game two when we are on the draw.