@ ajfirecracker, you could add this to the tips and tricks section: you can't use ichorid as a guy for nether shadow because ichorid comes back at the beginnning of the upkeep and nether shadow comes back at the end.
Many of us run several Contagions in the main deck. Also Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian both outrun him. DRS is annoying, but not a game ending card.
You might want to slow down and take some take some time to look into the cards before you advise what should be added to a primer. Read Ichorid and Nether Shadows oracle text.
And on the subject of grafdigger's cage, that card isn't played much because its hate is so broad that it can easily hinder the deck it is used in. More common are things like relic of progenitus and tormod's crypt. However, we can use leyline of sanctity against that, and if we're lucky we could even unmask oureslf so we don't lose a turn
All in all, i would run leyline and unmask over removal. And you'll still have slots left for other cards.
Cage is the #1 sideboarded card in all of Legacy. Where are you getting your numbers from?
To clarify, I don't intend to blow myself out of the water with Fetchs and shocks. Just more fetchs and basics so I is a little easier to cast spells past 3cmc.
I am going to test around with upping my Fetchlands, basics and only running three Shocklands. No fastlands and maybe even a Urborg. The Fetchs give you extra to fill your bin against relics.
I ran into this playing at the SCGs. Manaless shines bright like a diamond when people don't know about Manaless Dredge. That being said, what I have found is Manaless Dredge is now common place. Mostly due to the price. I played two SCG last year and placed just outside the top 16 each time. Both times I was one Manaless deck out of 2-3 in the room of 300+. Earlier this year I played 6 Rounds, before dropping, and didn't run into a person that didn't instinctively know how to play against Manaless. One was a Manaless player playing Reanimator that day, and the other five have friends in there playgroups that play Manaless. After walking the room I found at least 5 Manaless players other than myself. It is hard to be the unknown when eveyone knows who we are.
After three years of Manaless I have made the Switch to LED Dredge and I'm not looking back.
Affinity is not a good match up if they land Arcbound Ravager. Game one is heavily favored for them. A Cranial Plating equipped Vault Skirge on turn two with no Dismember in hand is very very bad. Game two can get better, but it isn't a good match up.
It's basically just discard in place of LD with a good chunk of maindecked graveyard hate to ensure velocity of a resolved Skeins. It's probably terrible (I played it a couple of times against Faeries and Affinity to little success), but if Skeins had half a chance of ever working then maybe this might be the route. Or not...:frown:
I don't think helping them fill their grave is the way to go even if you are playing gravehate in the main.
So I'm fairly new to playing Legacy though I've been watching it for about 2 years. I love Manaless Dredge because I just like winning with cards most people think are awful and I like being able to either grind people out with a swarm of zombies, horrors, and spirits or just killing them with the combo.
I decided on only running 3 Balustrade Spies because you only need one copy to perform the combo with. I like running the full 4 Chancellors as then even if my opponent decides to draw first I still get a nice Force Spike to time walk them and being able to Dread Return them game 1 vs Storm is really valuable. Sideboard is fairly standard, almost entirely anti-combo. Contagion for dealing with problem creatures like Meddling Mage, Scooze, and DRS. Wurm as my insurance against being decked out and also good vs Sneak and Show, a 15/15 who when it dies I get 3 5/5s? Seems good vs Emrakul.
Any advice on piloting the deck or my list in general?
Ok i would do -1 chancellor +1 balustrade spy you want to have 4 because you don't want to be stuck looking for one and then stall... or you could do +1 balustrade spy -1 shambling shell, i think you have more than enough dredgers.
emrakul has flying so you can't block him with worldspine wurm but i suppose if next turn you have the 3 wurms and a few beaters you could swing for 20 or more, so maybe he is good. Better than blightsteel colossus.
The combo rarely needs protection. Force of Will and the rest of the "Blue" package was never there to protect the combo. It was to protect your graveyard from RIP and Cage.
What happens when when they Force your Dread Return, you Pact, and they Daze your Return again.
Exactly, the counter is there only to stop RiP, Cage and whatever other hate from taking effect.
Cabal Therapy is your best tool if you're quick enough, and is always going to rape their hand before you combo out anyway.
ok good points. So should I be running 4 cabal therapy? If so, what should I swap out? I was running 3 because a 4th never seemed necessary but on second thought i probably should run 4.
You are trying to stretch the deck in to many directions and your loosing the core because of it. Manaless doesn't need to win turn two. It just needs to win. Try going back to a simple basic build before you think your going to break the format. This is my suggested build for starting.
Also, i had a thought: could we possibly run pact of negation instead of force of will? if we use it on the turn we combo out, it's basically a free counter.
The combo rarely needs protection. Force of Will and the rest of the "Blue" package was never there to protect the combo. It was to protect your graveyard from RIP and Cage.
What happens when when they Force your Dread Return, you Pact, and they Daze your Return again.
Have anyone tested Choke as a sideboard card against Twin/Scapeshift/UWR control?
I tested it against Scapeshift. Choke was not great. It ether ate a counter, Repealed, Cryptic Commanded or got played around. Boil was awesome tho. It required 1 more mana, but it was an instant that absolutely had to be countered. They ether addressed it or lost. Other than Search for Tomorrow, Tribe Elder, and Scapeshift that deck just wants to go "Land, go". Forcing them to take action on their turn is very important. I keep two Boils in the board for this match up and I am not looking back.
So I'm fairly new to playing Legacy though I've been watching it for about 2 years. I love Manaless Dredge because I just like winning with cards most people think are awful and I like being able to either grind people out with a swarm of zombies, horrors, and spirits or just killing them with the combo.
I decided on only running 3 Balustrade Spies because you only need one copy to perform the combo with. I like running the full 4 Chancellors as then even if my opponent decides to draw first I still get a nice Force Spike to time walk them and being able to Dread Return them game 1 vs Storm is really valuable. Sideboard is fairly standard, almost entirely anti-combo. Contagion for dealing with problem creatures like Meddling Mage, Scooze, and DRS. Wurm as my insurance against being decked out and also good vs Sneak and Show, a 15/15 who when it dies I get 3 5/5s? Seems good vs Emrakul.
Any advice on piloting the deck or my list in general?
Looks like a solid balanced start. It is better to start with a very basic build than trying to break the format with something gimmicky. The best advice I can give you is about your timing and triggers. I always announce what phase I am in and then skim threw my graveyard looking for the triggers I am activating. To make this faster I generally keep my graveyard fanned out left to right. Left being the bottom. Remember the tricks with grave order too. Which is very important with Nether Shadown Dredging isn't just flipping cards into your grave. All the cards Dredged to the grave are going at the exact same time. So you chose the order they hit the grave. Also Ichorid has a oracle text. Both Ichorid and Nether Shadow effects activate that the beginning of the upkeep. Helps to keep reoccurring your shadows. The only other advice I can give is to watch out because Bridge from Bellow it very tricky. It has a double clause. If you sac a bunch of stuff to say a Dread Return your opponent can sac or destroy one of their own creatures in response and you will loose your bridges and when the tokens effect checks and see there are no bridges in your gave they will fizzle.
Just some inside tips for non legacy savvy players.
hard to say, not a whole lot on the ban list that would help us. i could see cascading into a stoneforge mystic as being a good plan, but stoneforege is a whole nother deck. deathrite coming off would be good for us. people played him over ooze and we liked that.
gravetroll can't do anything for us, he would mill our living ends away. blood briad we never used before banning, can't use sword of the meek either.
Fighting threw Batterskulls every other round would really make my upset playing Living End.
Many of us run several Contagions in the main deck. Also Street Wraith or Phantasmagorian both outrun him. DRS is annoying, but not a game ending card.
You might want to slow down and take some take some time to look into the cards before you advise what should be added to a primer. Read Ichorid and Nether Shadows oracle text.
Boom
Canadian Threshold
Death and Taxes
Patriot Aggro
U/R Delver
BUG Delver
U/W Miracles
Stoneblade/Death Blade
High Tide
Jund (Some lists)
Just to name a couple off the top of my head. Almost all of those decks being Tier 1.
Cage is the #1 sideboarded card in all of Legacy. Where are you getting your numbers from?
After three years of Manaless I have made the Switch to LED Dredge and I'm not looking back.
I don't think helping them fill their grave is the way to go even if you are playing gravehate in the main.
You are trying to stretch the deck in to many directions and your loosing the core because of it. Manaless doesn't need to win turn two. It just needs to win. Try going back to a simple basic build before you think your going to break the format. This is my suggested build for starting.
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Chancellor of the Annex
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
4 Bridge from Below
//Instant (2)
2 Contagion
//Sorcery (10)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
2 Gitaxian Probe
The combo rarely needs protection. Force of Will and the rest of the "Blue" package was never there to protect the combo. It was to protect your graveyard from RIP and Cage.
What happens when when they Force your Dread Return, you Pact, and they Daze your Return again.
I tested it against Scapeshift. Choke was not great. It ether ate a counter, Repealed, Cryptic Commanded or got played around. Boil was awesome tho. It required 1 more mana, but it was an instant that absolutely had to be countered. They ether addressed it or lost. Other than Search for Tomorrow, Tribe Elder, and Scapeshift that deck just wants to go "Land, go". Forcing them to take action on their turn is very important. I keep two Boils in the board for this match up and I am not looking back.
Looks like a solid balanced start. It is better to start with a very basic build than trying to break the format with something gimmicky. The best advice I can give you is about your timing and triggers. I always announce what phase I am in and then skim threw my graveyard looking for the triggers I am activating. To make this faster I generally keep my graveyard fanned out left to right. Left being the bottom. Remember the tricks with grave order too. Which is very important with Nether Shadown Dredging isn't just flipping cards into your grave. All the cards Dredged to the grave are going at the exact same time. So you chose the order they hit the grave. Also Ichorid has a oracle text. Both Ichorid and Nether Shadow effects activate that the beginning of the upkeep. Helps to keep reoccurring your shadows. The only other advice I can give is to watch out because Bridge from Bellow it very tricky. It has a double clause. If you sac a bunch of stuff to say a Dread Return your opponent can sac or destroy one of their own creatures in response and you will loose your bridges and when the tokens effect checks and see there are no bridges in your gave they will fizzle.
Just some inside tips for non legacy savvy players.
Fighting threw Batterskulls every other round would really make my upset playing Living End.
Somehow I feel that number is off a little bit low.
Goblins is about 700$ on the lowest end. Unless you are build without Ports, but still Wasteland 55$ buying them Heavily played.