I'm chasing some of the rare/narrow cards and one of them I'm not sure. Do you mind telling me about Nether Void? Would you use it in a Aggro or prison black deck ? Currently I have a proxy for it but still haven't drafted it.
Also, any good replacements for Eureka and the Visions poor's man version of Abyss would work? These three cards are pretty hard to find/expensive and feels more narrow than other nice choices.
Also, thank you very much for the tip. I am keeping a "rotated out" cube pool with all the cuts.
I recently finished my unpowered Cube following your suggestion and building steve_man cube.
Now I want to do the same with your Cube as both of you have lots of similarities, I see you do a lot of tinkering and reading your reviews, you usually say "you have been testing with these cards" , How often do you do you do an update (not based on a new set coming out) where you have cards "locked" .
I am considering keepin' some cards at "sidelines" just to try and foresee your changes. DO you keep a list anywhere with cards that "are in consideration" or "I cut but it might go back?
I want to use your cube as the guideline for my powered one but I am afraid I wouldn't be able to keep up with all the changes!
Hi, Bmholle, thanks a lot for your tip! I am feeling really well received at this forum , so thanks for that
I am looking at Steve and Wtw cubes and they are pretty similar, probably under 50 cards different. Maybe I will be able to transition from one to another and have the best of both worlds !
In this case, I was considering using yours as a base (incredible job by the way) and replacing the power 9 with the signets and replacing the super expensive cards with similar ones keeping the curve. Do you think it would hurt a lot?
Hi Fel Barros
I was in your shoes when I first started cubing. I do recommend starting with a well-regarded and thought-out list before tweaking it to your liking. The trick is finding the right one that fits the direction you want to go.
I saw your other thread asking about unpowered 540 lists and Steve_Man's list was suggested. I would recommend modeling on his list if you are set on an unpowered cube. The reason is there will be inclusions/exclusions that are more appropriate for an unpowered list that aren't easy to see if you start with wtwlf's and try to modify it. For example, Trinket Mage is not as good without Moxen, nor are the Tezzerets (though if you are adding all the signets maybe they are still fine). These might be easy to see, but there will be more subtle ones that are harder.
Going forward, as lists are updated, the same logic applies. If you model on wtwlf's you have to ask yourself with each update whether it makes sense for your unpowered version. Whereas if you model on Steve_Mans you know that the updates already consider the appropriate power level / existing cards.
In this case, I was considering using yours as a base (incredible job by the way) and replacing the power 9 with the signets and replacing the super expensive cards with similar ones keeping the curve. Do you think it would hurt a lot?
I have an outdated 540-unpowered cube that I copied from MTGO. There are many problems with that one and I would like to invest in a new cube.
For me, wtwlf123's Cube is the "ultimate" powered Cube. I heard so many complaints about MTGO newest cubes that I am afraid to update using them.
So I built and enjoyed the list but it bothers me to use proxy and I don't want to use p9s nor I am a big fan of powered games.
Do we have a wtwlf123's Cube counterpart anywhere? I was reaching for eidolon's but apparently he left the forums and it's 450 only.
I know there is a lot of 'personal' choices but I would like something following this philosophy from a user on reddit that summarizes my thoughts:
The heart and soul of cube is not necessarily balance, although that's important. Over the past few iterations, balance has taken a front seat to "playing with toys".
Melissa DeTora wrote an article about cube when she took over design for it, and in it, she wrote that, in essence, green was indirectly nerfed because mana rocks are at such a premium, and green no longer has the one thing that gives that slice of the color pie meaning. While this created a more balanced cube, it depowered it greatly. It also made certain combo strategies no longer viable, as almost every combo from this cube required a copious amount of mana. Notably, it cut out the third spoke of the metagame wheel completely, pushed toward aggro-midrange duels. But, most importantly, we play cube to do broken things, and it eliminated the option to do broken things. Whether or not you think those games are fun, that is a primary reason people play a cube that is up for a few weeks out of the year.
"In short, I don't think the primary objective of cube should be to balance it, it should be first to let people play with their toys, then second balance around that fact. It's a pretty obvious for-fun format, and it should be treated as such.
Bring back mana rocks, broken combo nonsense -- not all of it, but we're so far away from the essence of why people play cubes in the first place. I know many cube aficionados who have cut Swords from their cubes, others have cut Show and Tell packages, yet others have cut Time Vault. Everyone has the "one" combo they hate, but this cube seems to have cut nearly every single combo the collected masses hate. The only degenerate strategies left seem to be Reanimator (nerfed), Opposition and Upheaval (pointless with no mana rocks). Two of these three are depowered to the point where it doesn't really feel as fulfilling to execute them, as creature based midrange is more consistent and as powerful. And, honestly I like Standard, but if I wanted that, I'd just play Standard"
I'll have a big champ coming on Saturday and I plan to make Jundjustice. However, Burn is part of my metagame and I want to dedicate some slots to it. Any thoughts?
I really enjoy playing MBC and I do think it has a shot in the meta. Nowadays, a good reason to play a mono-colored deck is the use of a resilient manabase that can use the full 4 ghost quarter/4tectonic edge to prey on enemies.
The creatures should be hard to kill/utility
The spells should only be a mix of removal/discard.
I don't have a fixed decklist but I'd like to use:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Dismember
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
1 Damnation
4 TecEdge
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 Swamps
If you like to budget it, Dark confidant could be replaced by phyrexian revoker and phyrexian arena would be the card-drawing of choice. Thoughtseize could be Wrench Mind.
Another option I envision is to go into a "taxes" style with more critters and Vial:
I know this probably has been discussed quite many times but I'm new and the Primer answer didn't convince me. Can't we run a basic island and a basic forest or swamp in the deck?
When I'm on the draw against Jund or RUG Delver it's not unusual to be landless after the initial wasteslaughter. Besides, they only need one mana to kill my DRS. I'm seriously considering going for 1-2 basics. At least an island so I can cantrip for an out. Against Jund you might have a shot saving fetches (if you drew them) but RUG Delver can stifle you away pretty hardcore.
I played yesterday on a 12-person to a 3-1 finish with very fun games. Game 1 is usually pretty good without the grave hate.
I'm looking for an alternate wincon/board stall against aggro since you can outclass control with manlands and inevitability as they don't set you on a cloak but super fast aggro can pretty much rebuild after your first pyroclasm.
Anyone still working on it? I've seen the Seismic build but not nearly as fun as reanimating Borbo and going straight for the kill.
Played a 80-people and went 6-0 with a split in the finals
I had a 4-color (no black) despite going selesnya allied with Orzhov.
The bombs:
Advent of the Wurm (not as impressive, not easy to get double green, many bounce effects)
Ruric Thar (a monster. If they use a trick to kill it, it's 6 dmg + a creature). Reach make pretty hard life.
Semi-bombs - The 4/4 with 2 birds etb.
The all-star - 6/6 that bounce your own stuff. I had the centaur healer, the 4/4 with two birds, white gatekeeper and 4/5 fight random dude
Removal - The anti-tusk UR and angelic edict.
I played with 17 lands (5 gates) and 2 cluestones.
Format is pretty slow but you can make a Rakdos pretty fast. Faced one but just changed to a bunch of 1/4s and stabilized for the win.
Many people tried to play semi-aggro with lots of dead topdecks and many random critters. Aside from dedicated Rakdos , I'd rather go with 3-4 cluestones and ramp into 5-6 drops.
I've been playing Jund for some time now and there are many times where I believe Ooze would be better than Goyf , anybody shares this opinion? Can't we relate this to what happened to Goyf in Maverick?
Let me contextualize, so you can help me out. I leave my cube in a Hobby Store and we cube twice a week. On Sundays , we do three Cubes. Morning/Afternoon/Night.
It has to be a 720 Cube (so people don't get bored but mainly because we can have 16 people playing at once), it has to be un-powered (besides budget issues, I wouldn't leave a p9 for common use) and it should have aggro-based strategies viable as well, so people can feel this diversity.
I'm chasing some of the rare/narrow cards and one of them I'm not sure. Do you mind telling me about Nether Void? Would you use it in a Aggro or prison black deck ? Currently I have a proxy for it but still haven't drafted it.
Also, any good replacements for Eureka and the Visions poor's man version of Abyss would work? These three cards are pretty hard to find/expensive and feels more narrow than other nice choices.
Also, thank you very much for the tip. I am keeping a "rotated out" cube pool with all the cuts.
I recently finished my unpowered Cube following your suggestion and building steve_man cube.
Now I want to do the same with your Cube as both of you have lots of similarities, I see you do a lot of tinkering and reading your reviews, you usually say "you have been testing with these cards" , How often do you do you do an update (not based on a new set coming out) where you have cards "locked" .
I am considering keepin' some cards at "sidelines" just to try and foresee your changes. DO you keep a list anywhere with cards that "are in consideration" or "I cut but it might go back?
I want to use your cube as the guideline for my powered one but I am afraid I wouldn't be able to keep up with all the changes!
Thanks for a great cube !
I am looking at Steve and Wtw cubes and they are pretty similar, probably under 50 cards different. Maybe I will be able to transition from one to another and have the best of both worlds !
Thank you very much for the recommendation.
In this case, I was considering using yours as a base (incredible job by the way) and replacing the power 9 with the signets and replacing the super expensive cards with similar ones keeping the curve. Do you think it would hurt a lot?
For me, wtwlf123's Cube is the "ultimate" powered Cube. I heard so many complaints about MTGO newest cubes that I am afraid to update using them.
So I built and enjoyed the list but it bothers me to use proxy and I don't want to use p9s nor I am a big fan of powered games.
Do we have a wtwlf123's Cube counterpart anywhere? I was reaching for eidolon's but apparently he left the forums and it's 450 only.
I know there is a lot of 'personal' choices but I would like something following this philosophy from a user on reddit that summarizes my thoughts:
The heart and soul of cube is not necessarily balance, although that's important. Over the past few iterations, balance has taken a front seat to "playing with toys".
Melissa DeTora wrote an article about cube when she took over design for it, and in it, she wrote that, in essence, green was indirectly nerfed because mana rocks are at such a premium, and green no longer has the one thing that gives that slice of the color pie meaning. While this created a more balanced cube, it depowered it greatly. It also made certain combo strategies no longer viable, as almost every combo from this cube required a copious amount of mana. Notably, it cut out the third spoke of the metagame wheel completely, pushed toward aggro-midrange duels. But, most importantly, we play cube to do broken things, and it eliminated the option to do broken things. Whether or not you think those games are fun, that is a primary reason people play a cube that is up for a few weeks out of the year.
"In short, I don't think the primary objective of cube should be to balance it, it should be first to let people play with their toys, then second balance around that fact. It's a pretty obvious for-fun format, and it should be treated as such.
Bring back mana rocks, broken combo nonsense -- not all of it, but we're so far away from the essence of why people play cubes in the first place. I know many cube aficionados who have cut Swords from their cubes, others have cut Show and Tell packages, yet others have cut Time Vault. Everyone has the "one" combo they hate, but this cube seems to have cut nearly every single combo the collected masses hate. The only degenerate strategies left seem to be Reanimator (nerfed), Opposition and Upheaval (pointless with no mana rocks). Two of these three are depowered to the point where it doesn't really feel as fulfilling to execute them, as creature based midrange is more consistent and as powerful. And, honestly I like Standard, but if I wanted that, I'd just play Standard"
Thanks for all the hard work.
Do you happen to have a Legacy Cube? Or , could I 'transform' your cube in an unpowered one? Or it would break it?
And if you don't , do you know a 'counterpart' of you , meaning someone who really understands cube and keep a legacy 540-card cube up-to-date?
4 SFM
4 DRS
4 KOTR
4 BOB
4 Decay
4 StP
4 Thoughtseize
2 IoK
4 Liliana
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Wasteland
SB:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Massacre
2 Engineered Plague
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Gaddock Teeg
The creatures should be hard to kill/utility
The spells should only be a mix of removal/discard.
I don't have a fixed decklist but I'd like to use:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Dismember
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
1 Damnation
4 TecEdge
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14 Swamps
If you like to budget it, Dark confidant could be replaced by phyrexian revoker and phyrexian arena would be the card-drawing of choice. Thoughtseize could be Wrench Mind.
Another option I envision is to go into a "taxes" style with more critters and Vial:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Fulminator Mage
4 Gravecrawler
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Dismember
2 Smallpox
4 Aether Vial
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
4 TecEdge
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13 Swamps
What do you think?
When I'm on the draw against Jund or RUG Delver it's not unusual to be landless after the initial wasteslaughter. Besides, they only need one mana to kill my DRS. I'm seriously considering going for 1-2 basics. At least an island so I can cantrip for an out. Against Jund you might have a shot saving fetches (if you drew them) but RUG Delver can stifle you away pretty hardcore.
I played yesterday on a 12-person to a 3-1 finish with very fun games. Game 1 is usually pretty good without the grave hate.
I'm looking for an alternate wincon/board stall against aggro since you can outclass control with manlands and inevitability as they don't set you on a cloak but super fast aggro can pretty much rebuild after your first pyroclasm.
Anyone still working on it? I've seen the Seismic build but not nearly as fun as reanimating Borbo and going straight for the kill.
I had a 4-color (no black) despite going selesnya allied with Orzhov.
The bombs:
Advent of the Wurm (not as impressive, not easy to get double green, many bounce effects)
Ruric Thar (a monster. If they use a trick to kill it, it's 6 dmg + a creature). Reach make pretty hard life.
Semi-bombs - The 4/4 with 2 birds etb.
The all-star - 6/6 that bounce your own stuff. I had the centaur healer, the 4/4 with two birds, white gatekeeper and 4/5 fight random dude
Removal - The anti-tusk UR and angelic edict.
I played with 17 lands (5 gates) and 2 cluestones.
Format is pretty slow but you can make a Rakdos pretty fast. Faced one but just changed to a bunch of 1/4s and stabilized for the win.
Many people tried to play semi-aggro with lots of dead topdecks and many random critters. Aside from dedicated Rakdos , I'd rather go with 3-4 cluestones and ramp into 5-6 drops.
Anybody found the Shiels/Ford/Costa decklist from San Diego? I'm looking forward to see how it goes
It has to be a 720 Cube (so people don't get bored but mainly because we can have 16 people playing at once), it has to be un-powered (besides budget issues, I wouldn't leave a p9 for common use) and it should have aggro-based strategies viable as well, so people can feel this diversity.