@ Sting: I would love to see a functional reprint of Vexing Devil, considering it would be exactly the same, except with +1/+1 counters on it. It wouldn't be strictly better because +1/+1 counters causes counter weaknesses. But I would LOVE to see that +1/+1 counter variation of Vexing Devil.
@ilovesaprolings: Ghoultree is a 4 cost 10/10 at the time Nemesis is 2 cost. Nemesis is standard for Gulgari, Ghoultree is not standard. Nemesis can function with +1/+1 counter abilities without relying on scavenge. I've seen several Nemesis decks that worked great in the meta. Also, I never said Nemesis was THE best, I said it was one of the better, probably top 10 but not top 5.
@ 9909: I wouldn't call the functional ones undercoat... A 4 mana 4/4 flyer with Protection from White and the ability to gain +3/+3 later on is really.... Monstrous. A 3/3 for 2 was never undercost as proven by Watchwolf and now it has the ability to get even stronger. A 6/6 for 5 might not be the best, but its on the curve and if you don't have another curve into green, it can turn to a 9/9 next turn. But all in all, I do agree with your "Lazy vs. Skill", as Tribute relies on your Opponents skill as opposed to your skill.
First, I would like to apologize for not being active on my thread. I've been swamped with schoolwork right after posting the thread...
Second, I agree Flicker with Tribute would be interesting, except most opponents who know you're making a flicker tribute deck would probably just choose Tribute sense they don't loss anything as opposed to choosing the negative effect and getting it flickered for another choice.
@ Aqueous12: Something a little more balanced, especially for suicide red
Tribute DemonR
Creature - Devil (R or M) Tribute 1 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may put 2 +1/+1 counter on it.)
When ~ Enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, ~ deals 2 damage to each player.
2/1
I feel the above card would probably instantly be insta picked in every red aggro smash your face in deck, but at least now it isn't completely 1 sided. Kind of like Cackling Devil that dies if your opponent doesn't burn himself.... OH, Idea!!! Tribute 2 and deals 4 damage and sacrifices itself if it doesn't get tributes? Flavor Text "If you ignore it, it will go away, but not without making sure you knew it was there first."
Anyone else feel they dropped the ball with the Monsters again? I, for one, feel Monstrous was a great mechanic. Some of them were 1 or 2 Colorless Mana overcost, but great none the less. I enjoyed my turn Five 9/9 Monster in Green Arbor Colossus (And yes, Six mana is VERY easy turn 5 for Green) or the Nemesis of Mortals that worked oh so well with the Golgari deck. Heck, there is even ONE card that almost every Mono Red played. It might not have been because of Monstrous, but giving the choice to make the red haste flying anti-white beast stronger was always more than functional. For those who don't know, Stormbreath Dragon. Fleecemane Lion was also strickly better than Watchwolf.
Could someone explain to me, how exactly "Monstrosity" was a bad mechanic, except for maybe 1 or 2 Mana overcost? Half the Monstrosity cards were already below the mana curve, but their Monstrosity made them even better when you had nothing to play....
Now... Tribute it taking its place.... an ability that Black Decks would love.... fighting against. Anything with any semi-removal would love fighting against Tribute. Giving the opponent a choice, in my opinion, is much worse then an Instant Speed Bonuses that could be used at the end of your opponents turn.
Could someone explain to me how Tribute is any better than Monstrosity?
Technically, my whole budget is $25, but that's taking into account that $20 is already being used to buy this deck technically, so basic switches won't end up so much.
I think I'll try out Nemesis of Mortals in the deck, a 10/10 for 4 is kinda scary, considering my deck does have a lot of early game trades for 1/2's and 1/1's with deathtouch.
Also: At my shop it is both of stock and is $8 per.
As of right now, I have about 10 extra dollars to push into this for the weekend event next week...
(I've already calculated the price for the cards in there right now, it'll be $15 to buy, and I'll have $10 extra dollars to build past that)
Control is more the feel for it right now, considering that the whole deck has deathtouch and and so much kill in it its not even funny. Nighthowler counts creatures in all graveyards, so that is also a plus.
Personally, I'd like to see this deck more Control then "GRAWWWR!!!" but if Aggro would run better, then be my guest and give suggestions for aggro.
Also: This deck has to work against the Hydra AND be at least slightly competitive in a format. I would hate to go 0-4 simply because I wanted an easy win vs the Hydra.
@AskedForIt: That actually seems like it would be pretty interesting to see. I always thought Agent was a good card, but never really saw it get off combos on people before. The main reason Baleful was in there anyway was simply for a 2 cost deathtouch drop, since I wanted to fill my deck with deathtouch to kill a hydra head (only time I lost was fighting 4 Basics and 2 Elite heads on the board at the same time, and he had a turn of indestructibility and dealt 6 damage to me right after). I'll check that out and see how it ends up working (worse comes to worse, I'll make this into a B/W Orzov Hero deck).
@ Demonalcohol: Hm... didn't even think of gaze of granite. 3 cost Hydra board wipe for the win!!! The I can replace it with a sideboard card.
Alright, so the entire focus of the deck is to kill the hydra with death touch.... So great, I get a thousand 1/1 creatures with deathtouch, but that won't do crut in the tournament, and I'd hate to spend money to build a simple deck designed only to counter the hydra deck. Currently, were I buy my cards, the deck costs roughly $18 to buy (few, that Agent of the Fates is expensive x4 card in this deck).
The main trouble with this deck is, outside of Face the Hydra, it has no real win condition to use... Could someone help me me find a reasonable win condition within a reasonable price? Reaper of the Wilds was a choice, but for a playset of her, even only going at x3, it would be $6.50 ALONE to buy just to add a little consistency to the deck with a technical scry 2 (technical because it scry 1 per, so I cant scry what is beneath it) whenever I block with a deathtouch/attack with a deathtouch...
Outside of that, Killing Gaze (Hydra's are CMC 0) will be replaced with Doom Blade when I fight against a player and not a Hydra, and Dark Betrayal to sideboard vs Black.
But I seriously need to find a standard Win-Condition for this deck, so I won't be "woop-dee-doo, I block you with another one of my 24 deathtouch creatures" when I fight against someone.... Preferable something cheep, but considering that the shop sells most things for repetitively cheep, I was hoping someone could help me edit this deck slightly to have a win condition vs players.
(Playtested this deck vs Hydra, and currently have a 10/12 win and loss ratio! :D)
Fight vs Normal Players! Replace x4Gaze of Granite with x3 Putrefy Replace x4 Killing Gaze with x3 Doom Blade /or/ Dark Betrayal Replace x2 Deadbridge Goliath with x2 Alpha Authority Add +2 Alpha Authority
@ Edward: Nice try, I like the idea where "Mill until they Mill a Land" idea though, except for one thing... The second clause... The Hydra ignores Discard and Draw effects and ignores "impossible actions", and you said yourself that they Hydra has no lands in there deck, and can be inturprited as an impossible action, same for Syncopate, as the Hydra has no mana, Paying mana is an impossible action, therefor the Hydra can simply ignore it.
However, the rules don't state anything about the cards CMC, which because of that, would be easiest to assume all Hydra Heads have a CMC of 0 Mana, but if you ratchet bomb a Hydra with 4 heads, its practically guaranteed to replace the 2 its lost, with a chance more might come to play, since, ya know... 2 heads exploding = 4 cards revealed from the top of the hydra deck.
HOWEVER!!! I noticed a new rule within the video. "If the Hydra's Head enters any other zone, put it into the graveyard", so you could effectivly turn every 1 mana bounce spell you have into a Kill spell (QUICK, SEE IF THEY HAVE A 1 MANA BOUNCE SPELL IN STANDARD!!!). Also: because they have 0 attack points, but are still considered creatures, you can force them to attack you (and block-kill some of them), however forcing them into attack will not do anything unless you have a Wall of Frost or other cards like that, because the Hydra Heads deal damage to you AFTER they untap and play their 1 spell per turn.... damn thats nasty, easy mode you will be taking 3 damage turn 1!?
I may have gotten 8 heads on the field, but I might have gotten ride of an Elite Hydra head or two, and I'll only get 8 heads if I get mega unlucky. More than likely, with odds against me, it will be 4-6 depending on how many heads were there to begin with.
Also, if there were 4 normal hydra heads, each player gains 8 life.
Just a dumb question, but what would happen if I were to throw a Ratchet Bomb at the Hydra Heads? Are they considered CMC 0 for the purpose of card effects, or are they CMC NA where they don't have ANY CMC what so ever, so ratchet bomb would just fizzle?
Sorry, I'm just curious, because I'm wondering if it would be worth it to put a ratchet bomb into my Anti-Hydra deck right now, or not?
Also: Hydra Heads only able to "die"? Or do exile cards work too?
What are "Impossible" effects, that the mat says "you can ignore"?
(if this is the wrong area: could someone move this to the right area?)
Don't know exactly how to say this, it's not really baseless speculation, more of a "What Keywords make sense in Theros"? Personally, I'd love to see Radiance make a standard appearance with it. I really want to see Heroic combo with Radiance in the next set or last set, since radiance is "Target Creature and each creature that shares the same color with it." would make sense with Heroic creatures. Or make a New keyword that says "Target Creature and each creature that shares a creature type with it." would be awesome...
Any other keywords that you think would work in Theros set, with the current sets already out? Maybe one that hasn't been standard for a long while that would combo with Monstrous, or Bestow, or maybe even other card supports not used as a keyword?
Sorry, just random "baseless speculation" and discussion on what people think would be keywords that the Theros set is based around.
One gets +1/+1 counters whenever something hits you (so if you blood bolt yourself, it gains +3/+3 and turns into a 4/4 threat for 3 mana even though you just bolted yourself to the face lol).
The other card I made took the name from Valentine and it was inspired by Valentine. Essensially, it keeps the player alive while it is survivable (it only deals damage when a different card is used. I'm thinking of restricting it to healing only once per turn or something, so there aren't any of those "infinite lifegain/burn combos" I've seen so much.
First costs RB and starts off as a 1/1 creature, gaining +1/+1 for each damage you take every time you get hurt, and the other is a 2RB that heals you whenever you hurt your opponent, and hurts them whenever something YOU control hurts you (as to prevent a pseudo "attack punishment" card).
@ilovesaprolings: Ghoultree is a 4 cost 10/10 at the time Nemesis is 2 cost. Nemesis is standard for Gulgari, Ghoultree is not standard. Nemesis can function with +1/+1 counter abilities without relying on scavenge. I've seen several Nemesis decks that worked great in the meta. Also, I never said Nemesis was THE best, I said it was one of the better, probably top 10 but not top 5.
@ 9909: I wouldn't call the functional ones undercoat... A 4 mana 4/4 flyer with Protection from White and the ability to gain +3/+3 later on is really.... Monstrous. A 3/3 for 2 was never undercost as proven by Watchwolf and now it has the ability to get even stronger. A 6/6 for 5 might not be the best, but its on the curve and if you don't have another curve into green, it can turn to a 9/9 next turn. But all in all, I do agree with your "Lazy vs. Skill", as Tribute relies on your Opponents skill as opposed to your skill.
Second, I agree Flicker with Tribute would be interesting, except most opponents who know you're making a flicker tribute deck would probably just choose Tribute sense they don't loss anything as opposed to choosing the negative effect and getting it flickered for another choice.
@ Aqueous12: Something a little more balanced, especially for suicide red
Creature - Devil (R or M)
Tribute 1 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may put 2 +1/+1 counter on it.)
When ~ Enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, ~ deals 2 damage to each player.
I feel the above card would probably instantly be insta picked in every red aggro smash your face in deck, but at least now it isn't completely 1 sided. Kind of like Cackling Devil that dies if your opponent doesn't burn himself.... OH, Idea!!! Tribute 2 and deals 4 damage and sacrifices itself if it doesn't get tributes? Flavor Text "If you ignore it, it will go away, but not without making sure you knew it was there first."
I'm still going to Miss Monsterous...
Could someone explain to me, how exactly "Monstrosity" was a bad mechanic, except for maybe 1 or 2 Mana overcost? Half the Monstrosity cards were already below the mana curve, but their Monstrosity made them even better when you had nothing to play....
Now... Tribute it taking its place.... an ability that Black Decks would love.... fighting against. Anything with any semi-removal would love fighting against Tribute. Giving the opponent a choice, in my opinion, is much worse then an Instant Speed Bonuses that could be used at the end of your opponents turn.
Could someone explain to me how Tribute is any better than Monstrosity?
Technically, my whole budget is $25, but that's taking into account that $20 is already being used to buy this deck technically, so basic switches won't end up so much.
I think I'll try out Nemesis of Mortals in the deck, a 10/10 for 4 is kinda scary, considering my deck does have a lot of early game trades for 1/2's and 1/1's with deathtouch.
Also: At my shop it is both of stock and is $8 per.
(I've already calculated the price for the cards in there right now, it'll be $15 to buy, and I'll have $10 extra dollars to build past that)
Personally, I'd like to see this deck more Control then "GRAWWWR!!!" but if Aggro would run better, then be my guest and give suggestions for aggro.
Also: This deck has to work against the Hydra AND be at least slightly competitive in a format. I would hate to go 0-4 simply because I wanted an easy win vs the Hydra.
@ Demonalcohol: Hm... didn't even think of gaze of granite. 3 cost Hydra board wipe for the win!!! The I can replace it with a sideboard card.
The main trouble with this deck is, outside of Face the Hydra, it has no real win condition to use... Could someone help me me find a reasonable win condition within a reasonable price? Reaper of the Wilds was a choice, but for a playset of her, even only going at x3, it would be $6.50 ALONE to buy just to add a little consistency to the deck with a technical scry 2 (technical because it scry 1 per, so I cant scry what is beneath it) whenever I block with a deathtouch/attack with a deathtouch...
Outside of that, Killing Gaze (Hydra's are CMC 0) will be replaced with Doom Blade when I fight against a player and not a Hydra, and Dark Betrayal to sideboard vs Black.
But I seriously need to find a standard Win-Condition for this deck, so I won't be "woop-dee-doo, I block you with another one of my 24 deathtouch creatures" when I fight against someone.... Preferable something cheep, but considering that the shop sells most things for repetitively cheep, I was hoping someone could help me edit this deck slightly to have a win condition vs players.
Deathtouch vs Hydra!
4x Agent of the Fates
4x Deadbridge Goliath
4x Deadly Recluse
4x Nighthowler
4x Reaper of the Wilds
4x Thrill-Kill Assassin
4x Wasteland Viper
8x Forest
4x Golgari Guildgate
8x Swamp
Instant
4x Golgari Charm
3x Killing Glare
Sorcery
4x Gaze of Granite
Enchantment
3x Trollhide
4x Alpha Authority
3x Dark Betrayal
3x Doom Blade
4x Putrefy
(Playtested this deck vs Hydra, and currently have a 10/12 win and loss ratio! :D)
Fight vs Normal Players!
Replace x4Gaze of Granite with x3 Putrefy
Replace x4 Killing Gaze with x3 Doom Blade /or/ Dark Betrayal
Replace x2 Deadbridge Goliath with x2 Alpha Authority
Add +2 Alpha Authority
Sideboard as Nessessary Second and Third Game.
However, the rules don't state anything about the cards CMC, which because of that, would be easiest to assume all Hydra Heads have a CMC of 0 Mana, but if you ratchet bomb a Hydra with 4 heads, its practically guaranteed to replace the 2 its lost, with a chance more might come to play, since, ya know... 2 heads exploding = 4 cards revealed from the top of the hydra deck.
HOWEVER!!! I noticed a new rule within the video. "If the Hydra's Head enters any other zone, put it into the graveyard", so you could effectivly turn every 1 mana bounce spell you have into a Kill spell (QUICK, SEE IF THEY HAVE A 1 MANA BOUNCE SPELL IN STANDARD!!!). Also: because they have 0 attack points, but are still considered creatures, you can force them to attack you (and block-kill some of them), however forcing them into attack will not do anything unless you have a Wall of Frost or other cards like that, because the Hydra Heads deal damage to you AFTER they untap and play their 1 spell per turn.... damn thats nasty, easy mode you will be taking 3 damage turn 1!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cucDOae_78c
My only question is, the play mat continuously says "you", does that mean you fight yourself during the event? or a "Host"?
Also, if there were 4 normal hydra heads, each player gains 8 life.
Sorry, I'm just curious, because I'm wondering if it would be worth it to put a ratchet bomb into my Anti-Hydra deck right now, or not?
Also: Hydra Heads only able to "die"? Or do exile cards work too?
What are "Impossible" effects, that the mat says "you can ignore"?
(if this is the wrong area: could someone move this to the right area?)
Any other keywords that you think would work in Theros set, with the current sets already out? Maybe one that hasn't been standard for a long while that would combo with Monstrous, or Bestow, or maybe even other card supports not used as a keyword?
Sorry, just random "baseless speculation" and discussion on what people think would be keywords that the Theros set is based around.
The "gods" blessings are Aura, therefor this is an Aura themed set, much like Bant was.
One gets +1/+1 counters whenever something hits you (so if you blood bolt yourself, it gains +3/+3 and turns into a 4/4 threat for 3 mana even though you just bolted yourself to the face lol).
The other card I made took the name from Valentine and it was inspired by Valentine. Essensially, it keeps the player alive while it is survivable (it only deals damage when a different card is used. I'm thinking of restricting it to healing only once per turn or something, so there aren't any of those "infinite lifegain/burn combos" I've seen so much.
First costs RB and starts off as a 1/1 creature, gaining +1/+1 for each damage you take every time you get hurt, and the other is a 2RB that heals you whenever you hurt your opponent, and hurts them whenever something YOU control hurts you (as to prevent a pseudo "attack punishment" card).