@QuickHoodies Yes I wanted Kpaca lynched D1. And if Shin flips scum then I'll want to lynch Proph and probably won't be talked out of it. But ever since entering the thread I haven't been actively scum reading Proph. Could be bias since Proph is a player I look up to, but I haven't seen the scum tells I've seen from him before. So my focus hasn't been on him.
As for the push but not a push I finally get what you're saying. You have been getting bad feelings off my posts ever since I dropped the Kpaca push. But you haven't investigated heavily to try and build a case. Fair enough. That said I find that behavior to be rather scummy. If you've been consistently getting these bad feelings I'd expect (based on the way you are treating the rest of your cases) that you would have looked into me. I know you for some reason don't feel entitled to, but it's mafia. This is a game. That's exactly what you're entitled to do. But your reluctance to do so feels like trying to keep the idea alive without committing to a push. And that's why I keep pushing it as scummy behavior.
I want it known for the record that I really would have liked to lynch Shinichi Day 1, but SOME people decided that he wasn't scummy enough, and look where we are now.
Regardless of his alignment, I think we'd be having a much easier time had we offed him early.
I've got similar feelings about Shin. He's been really scummy but I have doubts that I can't explain logically at all. Problem is he's been so floaty I don't think there is any lynch that would shed light on his alignment. I think the only viable lynches today are Shin~=QH>>>AG.
Am now if you're still around. What did you want to pick my brain about?
What are your thoughts on QH? What do you think of the case Proph made (and I added little bits to). Should I be worried that one of my PoE (proph) is putting my other 3 (AG, Shin, QH) forward as his PoE?
Okay so interesting note EternalLurker. You call Zionite out the language of "Kaba being more scummy". As opposed to him saying grape is more townie. And paint that as a scum tell of keeping lynches open. But for a player who believes that scum hunting is the more important hunt that would be the natural diction.
Also after having this conversation with you the idea that you consider Kabazame lock town is still raising my eyebrows. One of your 4 points you admit is a null tell and your stance on Kaba/Pa Tennis is crazy even after the linked ISO. I don't get how you can have multiple people friending with you and be so comfortable declaring one lock town and the other scum.
Also you getting town vibes from me for agreeing with you in that last paragraph tells me you're very likely to be town, just maybe struggling to find a footing for reads that don't revolve around you. Because of all the things to town read me for, slightly backing down my stance on Kabazame should not be one of them.
Been super busy today, will try to make up for it tomorrow.
One quick question @Shinichi in the meantime, though: if Town-you is sure that either I'm scum or Terry is, how does Town-you possibly imagine that I could be the scum out of the pair given that I don't want you lynched toDay, when you'd be such an easy mislynch?
Ohhh give me a break. You've been saying all day you don't want to lynch Shin but you'd be willing to. You aren't leading the charge but you also haven't been fighting against it. Look I think you/Terry is t/t but that is a silly leading question.
1) Initial refusal to vote and all that jazz. Obviously can just be a playstyle difference, but if we all explain why we prefer him voting (mostly, voting leaves records for us to analyze) and he still doesn't do it, that's anti-Town behavior. Thankfully, that didn't happen. His transition into his first vote looked very organic: after a third person told him very clearly why he should vote, he explained his reasons for holding back his vote all this time, then permanently planted his vote on a player who he's clearly established as his strongest scum-read, which is consistent behavior from someone who entered the thread by saying he doesn't like throwing weak votes around.
I see this reasoning (without the obvious benefit of knowing my alignment) to suggest a null read, and am a bit lost on how the words you said translate to a town tell. Showing conviction with a vote is good. But refusing to vote that long regardless of reasoning doesn't seem like it should garner a town read.
2) Buddying up to me. He's taken practically every opportunity he can to say that he's Town-reading me or to use me as a counter-example to people he's scum-reading. The thing is, this has mostly happened after I voted the other person who did that (and I'm still hard-scum-reading that person). If he's scum pocketing me despite seeing my reaction to Tennis doing the same, then he's the ballsiest scum in the world, especially doing that while there's already so much attention on him for having not voted earlier. And if he's scum not intentionally pocketing me, then blatantly Town-reading me when people have been so divided on me is throwing away a fairly viable mislynch possibility. This looks like he's legitimately Town-reading me and trying to work with me. Obviously, since I can't prove my alignment, this isn't useful information for other people, but it's a factor in why I'm Town-reading him.
This just baffles me. You explicitly scum read Pa Tennis for similar behavior but because Kaba town read you afterwards you town read him for it? Can you explain the difference between Tennis' read and Kaba's read? I am struggling to see how you can form a strong read based off the timing of similar behaviors. Especially when elsewhere people are being strongly critical of following other's reasoning even if the leader is being scum read as well.
3) Consistent playstyle. He just hasn't had significant logical inconsistencies in his arguments, and his posting style is consistent with someone who's used to relatively shorter Days. (That's why he agreed with breaking out of RVS quickly and getting to the meat of the game, since he's not used to having plenty of time to **** around at game start; that's why he's careful with his vote, cuz he's not used to Days that are long enough for him to swap his vote around plenty of times; and that's why his activity's picked up in the last few days as deadline approaches.)
You are reading intent into behavior pretty heavily there, but I largely agree with you.
4) Reasonable reads progressions. Expressed early issues with Latin, for example, but considered Latin's reactions to the pressure to be Townie, and slowly changed his view. This one's kinda NAI because Latin's so widely Town-read that rocking the boat here would be dangerous. But still, he's consistent about shifting his reads by only small amounts with each observation he makes, and -- contrary to Grapefruit's claims -- the reads are not self-centered at all. He was leaning scum on Zionite, still didn't lock onto Zionite in spite of his observation about this pretty scummy shade-post Zionite made against him, and finally called Zionite scum when Zionite made a post that wasn't directed towards KZ at all. He's had multiple reasons to scum-read Rodemy (like here) but still considers Rodemy mostly null. He's just so cautious about declaring people scum, yet is fairly okay with Town-reading people, that the only way he's scum is if he's being the good cop to someone else's bad cop; otherwise he's closing off too many mislynch opportunities for no real benefit. And the only bad cops I see as potentially aligned with KZ are Rodemy and Tennis, both of whom I'm scum-reading, so I have absolutely no interest in lynching KZ before either of those (probably Rodemy first, given that Tennis has significantly improved in the last few pages while Rod just soft-claimed scum).
and that's all the time I've got at the moment {:^#{{
Okay this last one has me convinced that you're in a tunnel here because the quotes you provided do the opposite of assure me he's town.
First you quote his response to this post, which you call a scummy shade post.
Kabazame looks more scummy in this exchange than grapefruit.
This might be a semantics thing but there is no shade in that post. It's an unsupported read. In my experience shading is used when someone is besmirching character while not making a read. Which clearly isn't the case here. Anyway you're awarding town points for not OMGUS'ing that post. He doesn't really engage with it either and is using to draw a comparison between my post and Zion's. He asks for follow up but doesn't have any particular question about the read. Then in your effort to show Kaba's reads aren't self centered you quote a post which is an at best NAI and at worst scummy post discrediting Zion for a valid strategy while not engaging with behavior. Which is a classic scum tool. So yeah, his progression there isn't explicitly self centered as I had accused, but it's also not particularly townie as you suggest.
Your secondary point of being slow to scum read but quick to town read is interesting. And in looking at it I just realized I'd been misreading Kaba's side of the town hunting debate this whole time. I thought he was anti town block based on that reply, but he clearly isn't. I need to reread. In my mind I had him taking these behaviors while having an anti-town hunting stance... Ughh... Need to reevaluate.
For the record I still think Zion is more likely town than not. Just a little worried that he's town reading me without stated reason when people are saying I'm lock scum. Well not so much town reading me as agreeing with me that Kaba is likely scum.
@Kabazame Your point is fair that I ignored your town reads in making that statement. What was your original reasoning on Zion being scum before he hopped on your wagon? In my recollection there wasn't much to base the read off before that. As for Toast I strongly disagree with your case here. I feel like you must either be scum or blinded by the fact that he's pushing you to have a scum read on him. I have nothing but good vibes coming off Toast and I find his arguments on you in particular and his worldview as a whole very compelling and likely to be town. I get that you feel like he's misrepresenting you, but I just don't see it.
@Kabazame just so I have your worldview straight; you think Toast is likely scum for pushing you for untrue reasons. You think I'm scum for hopping on your bandwagon with minimal reasoning. And you think Zionite is scum for also hopping on your wagon and bandwagoning it. Then you think my flip makes Zionite more likely to be scum based on our interactions surrounding our push on you.
That seems like a very self centered view of the game.
You in your catch up post cursory reads on everyone, then vote the one person you didn't mention, citing hopping on the wagon. Talk about an action that's trying to let you blend in and back out if needed.
That suggests you think I'm pretty clearly scum Anak. And Kaba's vote was also pretty confident. Maybe it's not specifically saying I'm obv!scum but those are two pretty firm accusations suggesting I am.
It was a terrible vote. He even knew he'd be called out on it and prefaced the line of questioning he'd receive. I don't see why anyone is defending this.
I'm not saying if it was or wasn't. Just curious as to your read on me.
Could you get into why it felt like the former to you? If it's the first time, something dramatic must have shifted fypov.
If you think he's town, then surely the first thing that pops into your head would be "he's pressuring a bad vote" over "fishy white-knighting."
It was the first thought, but then I got a bit paranoid because Zionite has been just about the only person to seemingly town read me. So as I thought about it more I became more worried because he hasn't articulated that town read. It's a gradual development.
Mostly I'm just finding it strange how ironclad people's opinions are right now. Kabazame being EL's top town read is baffling. 3ish people thinking I'm obvious scum is equally baffling. Given the heightened opinions pushing me as scum I am getting paranoid of anyone siding with me who isn't showing their work.
As for the push but not a push I finally get what you're saying. You have been getting bad feelings off my posts ever since I dropped the Kpaca push. But you haven't investigated heavily to try and build a case. Fair enough. That said I find that behavior to be rather scummy. If you've been consistently getting these bad feelings I'd expect (based on the way you are treating the rest of your cases) that you would have looked into me. I know you for some reason don't feel entitled to, but it's mafia. This is a game. That's exactly what you're entitled to do. But your reluctance to do so feels like trying to keep the idea alive without committing to a push. And that's why I keep pushing it as scummy behavior.
I'll buy it. And anything to give this game a jolt.
I've got similar feelings about Shin. He's been really scummy but I have doubts that I can't explain logically at all. Problem is he's been so floaty I don't think there is any lynch that would shed light on his alignment. I think the only viable lynches today are Shin~=QH>>>AG.
Am now if you're still around. What did you want to pick my brain about?
What are your thoughts on QH? What do you think of the case Proph made (and I added little bits to). Should I be worried that one of my PoE (proph) is putting my other 3 (AG, Shin, QH) forward as his PoE?
Also after having this conversation with you the idea that you consider Kabazame lock town is still raising my eyebrows. One of your 4 points you admit is a null tell and your stance on Kaba/Pa Tennis is crazy even after the linked ISO. I don't get how you can have multiple people friending with you and be so comfortable declaring one lock town and the other scum.
Also you getting town vibes from me for agreeing with you in that last paragraph tells me you're very likely to be town, just maybe struggling to find a footing for reads that don't revolve around you. Because of all the things to town read me for, slightly backing down my stance on Kabazame should not be one of them.
Ohhh give me a break. You've been saying all day you don't want to lynch Shin but you'd be willing to. You aren't leading the charge but you also haven't been fighting against it. Look I think you/Terry is t/t but that is a silly leading question.
I see this reasoning (without the obvious benefit of knowing my alignment) to suggest a null read, and am a bit lost on how the words you said translate to a town tell. Showing conviction with a vote is good. But refusing to vote that long regardless of reasoning doesn't seem like it should garner a town read.
This just baffles me. You explicitly scum read Pa Tennis for similar behavior but because Kaba town read you afterwards you town read him for it? Can you explain the difference between Tennis' read and Kaba's read? I am struggling to see how you can form a strong read based off the timing of similar behaviors. Especially when elsewhere people are being strongly critical of following other's reasoning even if the leader is being scum read as well.
You are reading intent into behavior pretty heavily there, but I largely agree with you.
Okay this last one has me convinced that you're in a tunnel here because the quotes you provided do the opposite of assure me he's town.
First you quote his response to this post, which you call a scummy shade post.
This might be a semantics thing but there is no shade in that post. It's an unsupported read. In my experience shading is used when someone is besmirching character while not making a read. Which clearly isn't the case here. Anyway you're awarding town points for not OMGUS'ing that post. He doesn't really engage with it either and is using to draw a comparison between my post and Zion's. He asks for follow up but doesn't have any particular question about the read. Then in your effort to show Kaba's reads aren't self centered you quote a post which is an at best NAI and at worst scummy post discrediting Zion for a valid strategy while not engaging with behavior. Which is a classic scum tool. So yeah, his progression there isn't explicitly self centered as I had accused, but it's also not particularly townie as you suggest.
Your secondary point of being slow to scum read but quick to town read is interesting. And in looking at it I just realized I'd been misreading Kaba's side of the town hunting debate this whole time. I thought he was anti town block based on that reply, but he clearly isn't. I need to reread. In my mind I had him taking these behaviors while having an anti-town hunting stance... Ughh... Need to reevaluate.
@Kabazame Your point is fair that I ignored your town reads in making that statement. What was your original reasoning on Zion being scum before he hopped on your wagon? In my recollection there wasn't much to base the read off before that. As for Toast I strongly disagree with your case here. I feel like you must either be scum or blinded by the fact that he's pushing you to have a scum read on him. I have nothing but good vibes coming off Toast and I find his arguments on you in particular and his worldview as a whole very compelling and likely to be town. I get that you feel like he's misrepresenting you, but I just don't see it.
That seems like a very self centered view of the game.
That suggests you think I'm pretty clearly scum Anak. And Kaba's vote was also pretty confident. Maybe it's not specifically saying I'm obv!scum but those are two pretty firm accusations suggesting I am.
I'm not saying if it was or wasn't. Just curious as to your read on me.
Really? This is you sorting them out? Can you post a full T/S list please.
It was the first thought, but then I got a bit paranoid because Zionite has been just about the only person to seemingly town read me. So as I thought about it more I became more worried because he hasn't articulated that town read. It's a gradual development.
Mostly I'm just finding it strange how ironclad people's opinions are right now. Kabazame being EL's top town read is baffling. 3ish people thinking I'm obvious scum is equally baffling. Given the heightened opinions pushing me as scum I am getting paranoid of anyone siding with me who isn't showing their work.