This game is weirdly (normally?) flat in terms of high posters. Recent games have gotten me used to a player or two spam posting their way to super high post counts and that (thankfully) isn't happening here. Going to do a bit of a thought dump and try to spark some discussion.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
Leaning towards Highroller being town, he's stubborn and the proposal is sucking all the air out of the thread but it's such a weird hill to die on. Especially as a first game back after a long hiatus. Like I could see his play coming from scum but I have a hard time seeing it in this situation and this way. In particular pairing the random lynching order bringing up and dropping just feels so natural. Such a bizarre thing to propose and immeadiately drop when challenged if scum. Like if he's scum this all had to be preplanned and if he had this random lynching idea in mind ahead of time and really believed it I'm not sure why he'd bring it up at all. And if it was a discussion starter he didn't believe in it's such a weird thing to bring up to immeadiately drop. I'm still paranoid about his quickness to call anyone against the mass claim scum and his focus on it could easily be a distraction tool, but that paranoia doesn't really make sense when looking at the possible mindsets behind bringing the mass claim and random lynching up.
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Going to talk about KA and Terry together. I really dislike both their reactions to the Rezombie/Vez stuff. KA attacks Vez for being overly defensive. I didn't feel Vez was particularly defensive, but more importantly I don't think that should be a scum indicator. I don't feel like the attack was well founded, Vez is routinely argumentative, and KA should pick up on both of those things given his familiarity with Vez. And his continuing too early to tell schtick feels the opposite of Cantrip's lack of clarity, avoiding comment and shutting down discussion. As for Terry his vote feels so gotcha. I know that's standard Terry but it's very opportunistic and so shadeful. At some level attacking KA for their tone while mimicking it for effect. He doens't engage on the substance of why KA's vote is bad or really do anything with it other than attack the style while copying it. I don't know what to make of his reaction towards me. Been trying to think on it and I can't really wrap my head around either POV for thinking I was needling him to engage him.
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
@Iso yes he's telling the truth about a publicly confirmed part of his role (or FPS'ing which seems highly unlikely given his, well, everything) and I'm taking that as town+. I usually am a fan of publicly announced information being claimed when it goes public. If Highroller hadn't been so adamant about a mass claim I'd be assuming there was more to his claim to come.
@Bur hopefully you're exams went better than you think.
@Axelrod That's not too dissimilar to my breakdown (I'm even lower on Rezombie's reaction). What do you make of KA's reaction to the (extended) reaction? What about Terry's?
@Grape: Why did you go out of your way to highlight that my flavorclaim suggestion in another game was scum-motivated, but didn't note that I wasn't serious about it?
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
Alright. I threw out my idea from earlier. Mechanics talk is too easy to fake and I shouldn't town read people over it.
Looking back through the thread the things I like most are Bur's naked vote on Rezombie, Vez's indignation at most things, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Things that are pinging me hardest Rezombies hard push on Vez for oversharing but zero interest in pushing highroller, KAs interest in vezs defensiveness and no interest in Zom's aggression, Terry's shade laden vote, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Vote: Rezombie
I just don't get his focus this game. Going from "I don't like Vez ignoring Grapes advice and need to hear more from highroller" to "I don't care why people are voting me" and not really following up on highroller and jumping on me with a bandwagony gotcha feels blatantly scummy to me.
@Terry I'm not doing anything to try and motivate you. Though you are awesome. I think your vote was forced feeling and the mimicking of the joke you were supposedly finding over the top is a discrediting sort of thing I could see scum you doing.
@Rezom the vote makes it obvious I'm scum reading him. That's kind of half the point of voting.
Okay. So you decided to cut out the part about me saying how scum gain targetting information and ignore my example of how it outweighed the numbers advantage. I really want to town read you here because your random lynching order suggestion and walk back read so pure but this proposal is just nuts.
@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
@Highroller yeah I'm poking at things as they come up, it's called scum hunting. I think it's fairly obvious from my posts I'm very suspicious of KA and Terry (probably not together), slightly pinged by Bur, confused by rezombie, and feeling alright about Vez.
As for your plan it's bad. It assumes the numbers advantage will overcome the targeting advantage scum gain. My last scum game in a powered game like this was pirates mafia. And team was dying to claim 2 of our roles because they were verifiable and looked townie. The third one could pass. We would have loved having the information early and been better able to organize night actions. We won largely because our roles made us valuable post mass claim and looked townie. It also let us figure out who was safe to kill based on the protective reads (though we failed 1 guess badly) and knew one person wasn't going to be tracked so they could safely kill.
It's an extreme example but the mass claim cinched that game for us. And wouldn't have hurt us if it happened D1 iirc.
@Highroller it's hinting at his claim and points to 1 of 3 cards. 2 of them have similar abilities. I don't know how they'd translate into this game. But I'm anti claiming today so I don't want to really start speculating.
Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. Seems a fair bit weaker than me being obviously mafia.
[quote from="Grapefruit21 »" url="/forums/community-forums/mafia/799971-banned-mafia-day-1-carde-diem?comment=61"]*snip*
I have no understanding of the resistance towards a day one claim in a game in which everyone has a role.
While I agree with all of highroller's point for a normal or semi-normal game, I am totally opposed to a massclaim this game. Wuffles has spent way too long designing this game and a mass-claim would hinder the town mostly. I don't have a problem with people who claim day 1 if they believe it's for the greater good of the game, but it's not a good idea, highroller being an exception.
This isn't helpful but it's hilarious. For the record I think it's absolutely awful to mass claim early in a normal game. When people can just hide behind vanilla claims it doesn't accomplish much.
Here it could have upside if scum are low on manipulation, weren't given or can't come up with believeable fake claims, and we are able to design a useful best case scenario that doesn't rely on scum. Without knowing we'll have all three of those I think it's too risky and I'd much rather give information roles one night to be under the radar.
Anyway this isn't finding scum.
@Rezombified Why don't you care why people are voting you? And why do you think Vezok saying his role doesn't use the GY is valuable information? I'm of the opinion we should keep things very tight to the chest and that really doesn't give anything about his role or card type away.
Grape: Vezok wasn't defensive in Phantom Tollbooth. Defensiveness in this context is caring a lot about what other people think of your alignment.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment. Especially early. Strongly believe defensiveness is NAI for Vez. As for your definition I don't think it fits what Vez has done. 34 I'd agree is defensive but it's much more vociferous about his idea being valid/good play than really arguing that he's obviously town for it. 28 is a bit more about the alignment but most of it's centered on him defending his idea. There really isn't much indication there that he cares about how people are reading him.
@Bur okay that was my impression too. For another reason as well, Terry didn't really even break my request. Saying he doesn't care about the graveyard doesn't share his card type. It's more than I would have done, but it didn't even really violate what I said. So using my post to push Vezok there is a weird look.
@Dan I kept what exactly bugging me vague. As for the other quote that's just poor writing by me. It's a technically true statement, but I was more wondering why he brought it up and defending bringing it up if it wasn't something he much to say about.
Sorry, I don't like double posting, so was waiting for someone else to reply, then had to go to sleep and haven't been able to post until now because of work.
I actually have a second ability that activates when I die. I am able to create two goblin corpses to add to the graveyard including my own. They can be any goblin card I want (spoiler warning: at least one of them is definitely going to be Goblin Gardener. Believe in the sausage tree, man. Believe in your dreams!), and are either townie, mafia, or neutral. Again, no idea what this does, but the presence of neutrality indicates there are probably other neutrals in the game.
Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm...
Bur: I can't seem to quote your post without something weird happening, but as to "Why did you decide to claim this...?", I pretty much always claim Day 1. I would imagine Axelrod remembers this.
I don't know why this isn't common practice. The town's advantage is numbers. The Mafia's advantage is that early on they have all of the relevant information, as no one knows who they are, they know who each other are, and therefore they can control the flow of information (hence why the mafia generally have two plays: 1. lurk, or 2. try to have one member take control of the town's discussion). The neutral role's advantage is that no one necessarily expects that they'll be in the game, and/or they have some sort of ability to compensate for their being greatly outnumbered.
The town have two ways to get rid of the mafia's inherent advantage:
1. Decide lynching order at the start of the game by random number generator, as the last people are more likely to be town than mafia, but this is easy to screw with, and frankly, takes 100% of the fun out of the game, however much it might make mathematical sense, thereby making it dumb and boring,
OR,
2. Roleclaim early. This generally breaks games unless the mod has put in planning to counter this strategy, and even then it doesn't generally put the town at a disadvantage, it just kind of gets them where they started.
This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all? Why does that improve odds compared to lynching based on reads/behavior/mechanics? Just completely lost by how that does anything helpful.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
@Vez Fair enough. It definitely generated some reactions. I'm really geeking out about this setup as well.
I think I like where Cantrip's head is at. He's being a bit opaque but in a way that feels like he's trying to generate reactions and not hide his opinions. I also like that he naked voted Rezombie and didn't back down. I also like his poking at people ignoring his naked vote. Drawing scrutiny to oneself ins't a hard town tell but it's >rand to be town.
Leaning towards Highroller being town, he's stubborn and the proposal is sucking all the air out of the thread but it's such a weird hill to die on. Especially as a first game back after a long hiatus. Like I could see his play coming from scum but I have a hard time seeing it in this situation and this way. In particular pairing the random lynching order bringing up and dropping just feels so natural. Such a bizarre thing to propose and immeadiately drop when challenged if scum. Like if he's scum this all had to be preplanned and if he had this random lynching idea in mind ahead of time and really believed it I'm not sure why he'd bring it up at all. And if it was a discussion starter he didn't believe in it's such a weird thing to bring up to immeadiately drop. I'm still paranoid about his quickness to call anyone against the mass claim scum and his focus on it could easily be a distraction tool, but that paranoia doesn't really make sense when looking at the possible mindsets behind bringing the mass claim and random lynching up.
Bur is a nearly empty mixed bag. I liked his naked vote and sticking by it (similar to cantrip in that regard) but some other parts feel forced. In particular his poke at KA to interact with him. Weird targeting and nonexistant follow through. Poking at KA given his cryptic can't see the whole picture yet posts makes sense but selecting him only is bleh.
Going to talk about KA and Terry together. I really dislike both their reactions to the Rezombie/Vez stuff. KA attacks Vez for being overly defensive. I didn't feel Vez was particularly defensive, but more importantly I don't think that should be a scum indicator. I don't feel like the attack was well founded, Vez is routinely argumentative, and KA should pick up on both of those things given his familiarity with Vez. And his continuing too early to tell schtick feels the opposite of Cantrip's lack of clarity, avoiding comment and shutting down discussion. As for Terry his vote feels so gotcha. I know that's standard Terry but it's very opportunistic and so shadeful. At some level attacking KA for their tone while mimicking it for effect. He doens't engage on the substance of why KA's vote is bad or really do anything with it other than attack the style while copying it. I don't know what to make of his reaction towards me. Been trying to think on it and I can't really wrap my head around either POV for thinking I was needling him to engage him.
@GanDan can you point me to a scum game of yours from before your break?
@Bur hopefully you're exams went better than you think.
@Axelrod That's not too dissimilar to my breakdown (I'm even lower on Rezombie's reaction). What do you make of KA's reaction to the (extended) reaction? What about Terry's?
What about it?
I read KA as scummy but not as scummy as Rezombie.
I mentioned that you were scum because it seemed relevant to Vez's point. And it wasn't a serious proposal? Being the awful teammate I was I never read that game. I just remember you asking me if I knew anything about your flavor in the team chat.
Looking back through the thread the things I like most are Bur's naked vote on Rezombie, Vez's indignation at most things, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Things that are pinging me hardest Rezombies hard push on Vez for oversharing but zero interest in pushing highroller, KAs interest in vezs defensiveness and no interest in Zom's aggression, Terry's shade laden vote, and highrollers absolute self confidence.
Vote: Rezombie
I just don't get his focus this game. Going from "I don't like Vez ignoring Grapes advice and need to hear more from highroller" to "I don't care why people are voting me" and not really following up on highroller and jumping on me with a bandwagony gotcha feels blatantly scummy to me.
I'm not getting the cantrip suspicion.
@Rezom the vote makes it obvious I'm scum reading him. That's kind of half the point of voting.
@Vez you were with me in pirates, would you say the claim played to our advantage?
More votes on Terry please.
As for your plan it's bad. It assumes the numbers advantage will overcome the targeting advantage scum gain. My last scum game in a powered game like this was pirates mafia. And team was dying to claim 2 of our roles because they were verifiable and looked townie. The third one could pass. We would have loved having the information early and been better able to organize night actions. We won largely because our roles made us valuable post mass claim and looked townie. It also let us figure out who was safe to kill based on the protective reads (though we failed 1 guess badly) and knew one person wasn't going to be tracked so they could safely kill.
It's an extreme example but the mass claim cinched that game for us. And wouldn't have hurt us if it happened D1 iirc.
Anyway if you think I'm obviously mafia why are you voting Vez over me? Your case on him boils down to he is scum that is afraid to go against the flow on claiming. Seems a fair bit weaker than me being obviously mafia.
What do you think that says about highroller?
This isn't helpful but it's hilarious. For the record I think it's absolutely awful to mass claim early in a normal game. When people can just hide behind vanilla claims it doesn't accomplish much.
Here it could have upside if scum are low on manipulation, weren't given or can't come up with believeable fake claims, and we are able to design a useful best case scenario that doesn't rely on scum. Without knowing we'll have all three of those I think it's too risky and I'd much rather give information roles one night to be under the radar.
Anyway this isn't finding scum.
@Rezombified Why don't you care why people are voting you? And why do you think Vezok saying his role doesn't use the GY is valuable information? I'm of the opinion we should keep things very tight to the chest and that really doesn't give anything about his role or card type away.
I pretty strongly disagree with that assessment. Especially early. Strongly believe defensiveness is NAI for Vez. As for your definition I don't think it fits what Vez has done. 34 I'd agree is defensive but it's much more vociferous about his idea being valid/good play than really arguing that he's obviously town for it. 28 is a bit more about the alignment but most of it's centered on him defending his idea. There really isn't much indication there that he cares about how people are reading him.
@Bur okay that was my impression too. For another reason as well, Terry didn't really even break my request. Saying he doesn't care about the graveyard doesn't share his card type. It's more than I would have done, but it didn't even really violate what I said. So using my post to push Vezok there is a weird look.
@Dan I kept what exactly bugging me vague. As for the other quote that's just poor writing by me. It's a technically true statement, but I was more wondering why he brought it up and defending bringing it up if it wasn't something he much to say about.
Well that is interesting. Maybe there is a Deathrite Shaman in this game (I figured the cards used in the art just wouldn't be in the game). Still expect a Yawgmoth's will. Dig through time or treasure cruise could play off that as well. I'm drawing blanks on other banned cards that care about graveyards. Nothing in dredge except Bazaar is banned anywhere these days. And Bazaar wouldn't care about the cards in the GY already. Hmmm...
This is just completely foreign to me. Why does a random lynching order set at the start of the game help at all? Why does that improve odds compared to lynching based on reads/behavior/mechanics? Just completely lost by how that does anything helpful.
That said I suspect you're right about two and the standard consensus is too anti claim. Especially in heavy PR games like this. I'm not in favor of a D1 mass claim here (or almost ever), but I think D3 and sometimes D2 claims are usually correct.
@Vez Fair enough. It definitely generated some reactions. I'm really geeking out about this setup as well.
Vote: Terry