I was just wondering if a player must "reveal" the card they're exiling when using Force of Will?
We have a person in our casual group who uses Forces a lot and usually just flips the "exiled" card face down. Everyone trusts that it's actually a blue card, but I feel it would be better to reveal it. I don't think he cheats, but it seems like it would be easy to do so if one felt desperate.
I'm guessing you do not have to, but what's the official verdict?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Wow, I'm curious about this too. I've never heard of someone writing down what was in the other person's hand. It feels a bit too encumbersome and time-consuming, especially when you're playing a timed event like FNM.
Was it really THAT crucial to aiding your victory?
I can understand the player being annoyed too, but I guess it depends on the rules actually work.
So, this is kinda a simple yes or no question, but I would like to know regardless.
Today in draft, someone opened a triple mythic pack, and wanted to keep the contents. He basically just.. left.
Is he allowed to do this? I've heard that in sealed/draft, you do not own the contents of your packs until the draft is complete, and that it's technically theft.
I'm curious...Which Mythics did he open? Because a "triple Mythic" pack doesn't mean he automatically got a big money pack that's worth walking off with. I mean sure, he if he got Liliana and Garruk, I could see him being tempted to walk off. But there's always a good chance one or more of the Mythics was a crappy Mythic, like Grimoire of the Dead or Essence of the Wild, then really it's not as big of deal, compared to staying and trying to win.
In either case, if he really wanted to keep the booster, I say he should have at least attempted to buy a new pack from the store, even paying extra for it...if he valued his Mythics that highly.
Also, regardless of whether he would be pursued for theft/banned or not, I'm sure everyone at the event will have a less favorable opinion of him from here on out, and people may refuse to trade/play/draft with him in the future. So even without an official punishment, still a bad move!
Wait, I'm a bit confused about this, since I'm new to the forums. Did Subversion just give the Xover a spam warning? Or did Subversion receive a Spam Warning? I'm guessing Subversion received it and his post was edited.
I can't say that Werewolves are competitive, but I've always been a fan of the beasties (if Folklore and movies) and I'm glad they've finally been introduced to MTG.
I built a deck around them and I went to a Game Day event this past Saturday. I went 3-0, I came in first and I beat a RDW and a UB infect/unblockable type deck. I won $15 in cash, and a play-set of both the Promo cards...felt great to win! Unfortunately, there was only 4 players total at this event. One player had RDW and said he went 4-3 at States. Another player (who actually Won one game against me, but not the match-up) was playing U/B control with un-blockable infect creatures and the last guy was playing a random UW singleton deck. He was pretty new/casual and said he built decks for fun. He didn't see the point of running more than one of the same card, and didn't even know what a playset was.
The guy who played the RDW was probably the best matchup, but I still beat him 2-0. He got me down to 5 life, but eventually ran out of burn/creatures/removal, and I was able to sweep in for the kill in a turn or 2 (if I had remembered to use Wolf Run pumps, it would have been quicker).
I also played this on Sunday in another small "Game Day" tournament. I lost to a Birthing Pod deck. The guy who beat me later helped me think of a better deck construction. We spent about an hour trying to think of spells it could use the handle the current meta, without breaking theme.
I don't think it will be a super-competitive, World Series winning deck, but I think it still has a chance to surprise and defeat the average player using a typical Standard deck, because a lot of people dismiss them and aren't expecting them.
However, I still have limited experience with this deck. I've only played about 6 times and a lot of the decks I used were ran and built by casual players, and were not Top 8 Decks by any means. I'm planning of contiuing to build my WereWolf deck and see how it fares in the FNM and Sat afternoon Type 2 Tournies!
Delver of Secrets - finally getting the respect it deserves (on legacy). I don't know why so many UW, UB, and Mono U decks are still not using this card. Knowing what card is next on the library and a one drop 3/2 flyer is a good thing for control decks.
Champion of the Parish - any opponent should be worried when this card is cast on turn one. Just to give an example on how potent this card could be, I saw this card pumped to 5/5 on turn two, and by turn three it was already 16/16 (could even be higher depending on the cards drawn and used.).
Just curious what everyone usually pays for drafting.
There are 3 stores in our area that draft regularly.
On Thursday evenings (the only night I can actually draft, since I work on Fri Nights), it's $15, but you basically get 2 prize pool packs per player. So if only 8 people show up (which is exactly how much showed up both times I played), 16 packs will be handed out to the top players. Also, the card packs at this place are still $3
Friday Night at the most popular store -$14 Also has the best players
FNM at less popular place $12, never been there, so I'm not sure what that environment or prize distribution is like.
Wow, this thread really exploded. I read every post, and I've got a few things to say..
Most of these probably don't matter, because like most people said, the deal is already done.
@ People saying "at least you got what you wanted". Well, that's sorta true, and kinda not true. Basically, I "wanted" to just get the Copperline Gorge and Beast within (along some Scorch) for my Sun Titan, Thought lash and Ponder (which isn't foil, just textless/Full art). Despite the fact that even THAT trade would've been me losing $4-5, I would've been cool with it, because I was getting cards I wanted. Though, now that everyone is mentioning the EDH deck, I believe I have that deck and that would be a great use for ThoughtLash. I now wish I had kept it, but oh well.
Anyways, after we agreed to that part, I told him I kinda wanted to hold off on trading the other cards, because I wasn't really sure what I wanted yet, since I'm new and getting back into MTG. He said he really wanted to trade for the whole lot/do a larger trade, which is why he did me a favor and threw in the playset of Shocks for our first trade. So I looked through his binder again and he pointed out that the Gavony Townships and the Mentor of the Meek were pretty good in standard. I figured I could probably think of a deck eventually, even though I wanted to do the same with NecroSkitters...but I figured they would be easy to re-obtain.
His first offer was actually even worse for me, I probably would've only received the 2 Gavony Townships for most of the cards he wanted from me, except that I hesitated and he made a comment about "Man, this guy is a tough negotiator", to which I responded, "well, yes..but I'm just getting back into the game, don't know most of the prices and I don't want to get ripped off (which I kinda felt like I had been a time or two, trading in the past week). So, of course I had him check most of the prices on his smart phone, except for the NecroSkitters, which actually ended up being the ones that mattered.
So, in the end, I got cards I may be building a deck around soon, and traded cards that I may have built a deck around at some point, which wouldn't have mattered too much, except that I did lose some value.
So yes, I will admit I was the fool for not looking up prices. I really should've stuck with my initial gut feeling and just waited until I was more certain of the values and what I wanted. I will definitely learn from this, and look up prices before I go trading stuff off.
Unfortunately, I don't have a Smart Phone atm. Otherwise, I would have definitely looked them up. So, really, my only option is to get a Smart-Phone, ask another person's opinion/have someone look it up, or go home and look it up myself. My phone is a Samsung Alias, it does have a 3G Connection, but it doesn't seem to work well on TCG Player, which is the site I use to look up prices atm.
However, if someone knows of a site that's "3G, non-smart phone" friendly, I would love to get some opinions on sites that are commonly used to look up prices. I like TCGplayer.com because it has a wide range of prices from various online dealers, even though it seems to be on the low end.
I guess, like most have pointed out, I can really only learn from this and be smarter in the future. My only other idea is that I could offer to trade something else or buy them back at a $1 each, he'll probably say no, but then I'll know for sure whether he thought they were a dollar or was just quoting them at that to maximize his trade.
He didn't misprice those cards. If he picked out the Necroskitter and then proceeded to tell you that they're $1 each, he knew exactly what he was doing. He made a margin on the trade with you. It happens every day at every card shop in the country. He's under no obligation to make a "fair" trade with you. If you agreed to the deal, then you agreed to the deal. Plain and simple. Next time, know the prices of your cards or don't trade.
Besides, if you gave away cards you weren't going to use, and you got cards you want in return, then you won the trade. It doesn't matter what some numbers tell you. It's not like he made a huge margin anyway.
You might be correct. One of the reasons I didn't ask him to look them up is because another person was agreeing with him that they would be worth $1, at most. They both said they weren't really used anymore, and were super cheap. I know this generally true with most rares, and just kinda took there word for it. Now I feel kinda tricked. I'm not sure if he really meant to deceive me or not, since some of the cards he quoted were higher than their actual price, as seen in the red below
I actually remember for the most part, what the actual trade was.
It was
Trade P. 1
My
Sun Titan-$8 , Thought Lash-$4-5 $1, Textless FNM Ponder $3
for
CopperLine Gorge $8, 2x Beast Within $1.50-$2, 4x Scorch $1 for all 4??
for his
Galvony Township x2 $2 each?=$4? ( he thought they were $5 each--until he looked them up and saw them at $3.50 on some site)
Mentor of the Meek x2 $4-$5 each $8-$10 total
These are prices that I mostly looked up on TCG Player, so it could be different at other places. I'm not sure what place most people use. I do think I'm going to invest in a Smart Phone before too long. My phone can connect to the net, but it's rather slow and I don't know what sites are easy to use on my Cel Phone. It's kinda tough to look up cards on TCG player using my current phone (a Samsung Alias)
With the easy access to online price databases you really should always check card values before a trade. Even if you don't have a smartphone someone else in the room almost certainly does, or you could even ask what the store your playing in has them going for.
You can ask him, and if it really was a mistake on his part he might fix it. But since you have some responsibility to know the value of cards as well you can't really hold him to anything.
Yes, you are correct, sir! I should've had him look up the card values. I think I just felt I would be bothering him too much after he already looked up a few.
I know he runs a booth at one of the more popular Comic/Card shops for Game Day on Saturday, and I know I've seen him before. He seems like a cool and friendly guy, so I thought I could casually bring up that I checked the prices and they were worth more than we had estimated. I definitely won't force him or be too aggressive. It was my mistake for not having him or someone double-check. I'm just hoping he'll be nice enough to reneg.
I was considering just asking for 2 NecroSkitters back. I feel that would still put him a little ahead on the trade, since he would still have a Thought Lash and Necro that were worth $3-$4 more than we thought.
So, I'm just getting back into MTG and I went to a draft tonight. After I was done drafting, I start trading with a guy who stopped by to do some quick traders.
I don't remember all the cards involved, but I do recall that he wanted 3x NecroSkitters. He told me they were worth a $1 each, and we traded them at that value. Also there was a Thought Lash that he said was a $1.
If the cards were that value, I feel the trades would've been pretty fair and I believed him and felt that he was probably right. He did have a smart phone which he used to look up a few values, and I feel stupid for not having him check NecroSkitter.
Anyways, long story short, I come home and looked up the price to find NecroSkiiter is around $5-$6 and Thoughtlash is actually worth around $4-$5...some places more and some places less.
Honestly, I'm kinda mad (mostly at myself) for not double-checking and losing close to $15 on the trade.
I'm sure I'll see him again, and I kinda want to point out the Necro's were worth more than I/he thought, and see if we can do something to compensate for the fact.
I know this is probably bad form, but since this was an in person trade, what do you guys think?
I was thinking of adding ThoughtLash to my Zedruu deck. I'm curious as to why you removed it and some of your other "take this" stuff. What errata are you referring to?
I was just wondering if a player must "reveal" the card they're exiling when using Force of Will?
We have a person in our casual group who uses Forces a lot and usually just flips the "exiled" card face down. Everyone trusts that it's actually a blue card, but I feel it would be better to reveal it. I don't think he cheats, but it seems like it would be easy to do so if one felt desperate.
I'm guessing you do not have to, but what's the official verdict?
Please use card tags in future posts. The Forum Guidelines explain how to do that. -Carsten
Was it really THAT crucial to aiding your victory?
I can understand the player being annoyed too, but I guess it depends on the rules actually work.
What did the Judge do to resolve the situation?
I'm curious...Which Mythics did he open? Because a "triple Mythic" pack doesn't mean he automatically got a big money pack that's worth walking off with. I mean sure, he if he got Liliana and Garruk, I could see him being tempted to walk off. But there's always a good chance one or more of the Mythics was a crappy Mythic, like Grimoire of the Dead or Essence of the Wild, then really it's not as big of deal, compared to staying and trying to win.
In either case, if he really wanted to keep the booster, I say he should have at least attempted to buy a new pack from the store, even paying extra for it...if he valued his Mythics that highly.
Also, regardless of whether he would be pursued for theft/banned or not, I'm sure everyone at the event will have a less favorable opinion of him from here on out, and people may refuse to trade/play/draft with him in the future. So even without an official punishment, still a bad move!
Wait, I'm a bit confused about this, since I'm new to the forums. Did Subversion just give the Xover a spam warning? Or did Subversion receive a Spam Warning? I'm guessing Subversion received it and his post was edited.
I built a deck around them and I went to a Game Day event this past Saturday. I went 3-0, I came in first and I beat a RDW and a UB infect/unblockable type deck. I won $15 in cash, and a play-set of both the Promo cards...felt great to win! Unfortunately, there was only 4 players total at this event. One player had RDW and said he went 4-3 at States. Another player (who actually Won one game against me, but not the match-up) was playing U/B control with un-blockable infect creatures and the last guy was playing a random UW singleton deck. He was pretty new/casual and said he built decks for fun. He didn't see the point of running more than one of the same card, and didn't even know what a playset was.
The guy who played the RDW was probably the best matchup, but I still beat him 2-0. He got me down to 5 life, but eventually ran out of burn/creatures/removal, and I was able to sweep in for the kill in a turn or 2 (if I had remembered to use Wolf Run pumps, it would have been quicker).
I also played this on Sunday in another small "Game Day" tournament. I lost to a Birthing Pod deck. The guy who beat me later helped me think of a better deck construction. We spent about an hour trying to think of spells it could use the handle the current meta, without breaking theme.
I don't think it will be a super-competitive, World Series winning deck, but I think it still has a chance to surprise and defeat the average player using a typical Standard deck, because a lot of people dismiss them and aren't expecting them.
However, I still have limited experience with this deck. I've only played about 6 times and a lot of the decks I used were ran and built by casual players, and were not Top 8 Decks by any means. I'm planning of contiuing to build my WereWolf deck and see how it fares in the FNM and Sat afternoon Type 2 Tournies!
How does the Parish get to 5/5 and then 16/16 on turns 2 and 3?? That's pretty nice.
Also, what decks maximize the Delver of Secrets transformation possibilities?
There are 3 stores in our area that draft regularly.
On Thursday evenings (the only night I can actually draft, since I work on Fri Nights), it's $15, but you basically get 2 prize pool packs per player. So if only 8 people show up (which is exactly how much showed up both times I played), 16 packs will be handed out to the top players. Also, the card packs at this place are still $3
Friday Night at the most popular store -$14 Also has the best players
FNM at less popular place $12, never been there, so I'm not sure what that environment or prize distribution is like.
Wow, this thread really exploded. I read every post, and I've got a few things to say..
Most of these probably don't matter, because like most people said, the deal is already done.
@ People saying "at least you got what you wanted". Well, that's sorta true, and kinda not true. Basically, I "wanted" to just get the Copperline Gorge and Beast within (along some Scorch) for my Sun Titan, Thought lash and Ponder (which isn't foil, just textless/Full art). Despite the fact that even THAT trade would've been me losing $4-5, I would've been cool with it, because I was getting cards I wanted. Though, now that everyone is mentioning the EDH deck, I believe I have that deck and that would be a great use for ThoughtLash. I now wish I had kept it, but oh well.
Anyways, after we agreed to that part, I told him I kinda wanted to hold off on trading the other cards, because I wasn't really sure what I wanted yet, since I'm new and getting back into MTG. He said he really wanted to trade for the whole lot/do a larger trade, which is why he did me a favor and threw in the playset of Shocks for our first trade. So I looked through his binder again and he pointed out that the Gavony Townships and the Mentor of the Meek were pretty good in standard. I figured I could probably think of a deck eventually, even though I wanted to do the same with NecroSkitters...but I figured they would be easy to re-obtain.
His first offer was actually even worse for me, I probably would've only received the 2 Gavony Townships for most of the cards he wanted from me, except that I hesitated and he made a comment about "Man, this guy is a tough negotiator", to which I responded, "well, yes..but I'm just getting back into the game, don't know most of the prices and I don't want to get ripped off (which I kinda felt like I had been a time or two, trading in the past week). So, of course I had him check most of the prices on his smart phone, except for the NecroSkitters, which actually ended up being the ones that mattered.
So, in the end, I got cards I may be building a deck around soon, and traded cards that I may have built a deck around at some point, which wouldn't have mattered too much, except that I did lose some value.
So yes, I will admit I was the fool for not looking up prices. I really should've stuck with my initial gut feeling and just waited until I was more certain of the values and what I wanted. I will definitely learn from this, and look up prices before I go trading stuff off.
Unfortunately, I don't have a Smart Phone atm. Otherwise, I would have definitely looked them up. So, really, my only option is to get a Smart-Phone, ask another person's opinion/have someone look it up, or go home and look it up myself. My phone is a Samsung Alias, it does have a 3G Connection, but it doesn't seem to work well on TCG Player, which is the site I use to look up prices atm.
However, if someone knows of a site that's "3G, non-smart phone" friendly, I would love to get some opinions on sites that are commonly used to look up prices. I like TCGplayer.com because it has a wide range of prices from various online dealers, even though it seems to be on the low end.
I guess, like most have pointed out, I can really only learn from this and be smarter in the future. My only other idea is that I could offer to trade something else or buy them back at a $1 each, he'll probably say no, but then I'll know for sure whether he thought they were a dollar or was just quoting them at that to maximize his trade.
You might be correct. One of the reasons I didn't ask him to look them up is because another person was agreeing with him that they would be worth $1, at most. They both said they weren't really used anymore, and were super cheap. I know this generally true with most rares, and just kinda took there word for it. Now I feel kinda tricked. I'm not sure if he really meant to deceive me or not, since some of the cards he quoted were higher than their actual price, as seen in the red below
I actually remember for the most part, what the actual trade was.
It was
Trade P. 1
My
Sun Titan-$8 , Thought Lash-$4-5 $1, Textless FNM Ponder $3
for
CopperLine Gorge $8, 2x Beast Within $1.50-$2, 4x Scorch $1 for all 4??
and P. 2
My
Varchild's War-Rider $1
3x NecroSkitter $5-$6 (total $15-$18) $1x3 = $3
Foil Plague Boiler $1.50-2?? ($3)
Foil uncommon (gives tokens +1/+1 Vigilance
Foil Phantatog
Captain Sisay $3
Dolmen Gate .75 $3
for his
Galvony Township x2 $2 each?=$4? ( he thought they were $5 each--until he looked them up and saw them at $3.50 on some site)
Mentor of the Meek x2 $4-$5 each $8-$10 total
These are prices that I mostly looked up on TCG Player, so it could be different at other places. I'm not sure what place most people use. I do think I'm going to invest in a Smart Phone before too long. My phone can connect to the net, but it's rather slow and I don't know what sites are easy to use on my Cel Phone. It's kinda tough to look up cards on TCG player using my current phone (a Samsung Alias)
Yes, you are correct, sir! I should've had him look up the card values. I think I just felt I would be bothering him too much after he already looked up a few.
I know he runs a booth at one of the more popular Comic/Card shops for Game Day on Saturday, and I know I've seen him before. He seems like a cool and friendly guy, so I thought I could casually bring up that I checked the prices and they were worth more than we had estimated. I definitely won't force him or be too aggressive. It was my mistake for not having him or someone double-check. I'm just hoping he'll be nice enough to reneg.
I was considering just asking for 2 NecroSkitters back. I feel that would still put him a little ahead on the trade, since he would still have a Thought Lash and Necro that were worth $3-$4 more than we thought.
So, I'm just getting back into MTG and I went to a draft tonight. After I was done drafting, I start trading with a guy who stopped by to do some quick traders.
I don't remember all the cards involved, but I do recall that he wanted 3x NecroSkitters. He told me they were worth a $1 each, and we traded them at that value. Also there was a Thought Lash that he said was a $1.
If the cards were that value, I feel the trades would've been pretty fair and I believed him and felt that he was probably right. He did have a smart phone which he used to look up a few values, and I feel stupid for not having him check NecroSkitter.
Anyways, long story short, I come home and looked up the price to find NecroSkiiter is around $5-$6 and Thoughtlash is actually worth around $4-$5...some places more and some places less.
Honestly, I'm kinda mad (mostly at myself) for not double-checking and losing close to $15 on the trade.
I'm sure I'll see him again, and I kinda want to point out the Necro's were worth more than I/he thought, and see if we can do something to compensate for the fact.
I know this is probably bad form, but since this was an in person trade, what do you guys think?