If you run a full land package where it can get back very powerful lands (dark depths, strip mine etc.) , you support explore effects (dryad of elysian grove, exploration) AND you run zuran orb for the sac combo. (duplicate fetchlands help too)
Currently I run all those powerful lands, fastbond, explore, oracle mul daya and was about to re-include dryad in my 3 creatures slot as it also helps 4/5c good stuff / super friends / golos... I could add crop rotation and zuran orb, but not so sure about it...
crop rotation is key if you support dark depths imo.
I love zuran orb. I have duplcates that make fastbond + zuran orb + crucible more consistent, but even if I was singleton I’d probably still include orb.
The combo would come together uncommonly in singleton, but when it does it’s really unique/fun.
Orb sees very fringe play outside the combo, but it’s not dead.
Currently running both hermits + thragtusk in my 450 vintage cube. But I am considering Titania instead of the tusk to go along the way with some land matters (depths, fetch, orcish lumberjack etc).
Perhaps too slow?
I'm starting to see thragtusk as 24-25th playable that has anti-agro sideboard applications at the moment.
Titania is way more narrow, but it has way more upside.
The only way I'd say Titania > thragtusk is if
If you run a full land package where it can get back very powerful lands (dark depths, strip mine etc.) , you support explore effects (dryad of elysian grove, exploration) AND you run zuran orb for the sac combo. (duplicate fetchlands help too)
Card seems fine, but it's obviously way better in a value focused slower format like MOM limited or standard than it is in a vintage cube.
This got tested a lot in standard/pioneer/modern early into the cards life cycle and it fell out of favor everywhere.
I'd consider testing it in a modern legal cube, but doesn't interest me otherwise. Lightning strike clones seems better to me in a faster format because of the speed of damage and the ability to answer 3 toughness things . Slow the format down and that pendulum swings the other way. The potential value is worth the damage offset. In MOM limited it was a bomb and way better than a lightning strike.
Also depends on how your red decks are trying to win
I run silver bordered cards if they provide a really interesting cube experience and are the appropriate power level (not TOOO broken, but also competitive with what's out there). This one is great on power level and solid enough on function/gameplay. For me, any silver bordered card that is not self explanatory misses the mark. To each their own though, card is cool.
Tainted is more on plan with what the color combination is trying to do.
Generally I like UB to be hard reanimator, soft reanimator (value reanimator/control) or tempo/control - prioritizing delve spells. There's some fringe UB combo decks too.
Tainted is so much better in a reanimator shell than Sauron's ransom, that it makes up for it being worse in a control/combo shell.
Unless all your play group is 100% active and up to date on all the new cards/mechanics , I'd dock points from sauron's ransom because of the rings tempt mechanic.
I can tell you is I tested Magus of the Order and it was flop. I'll be surprised if this can perform better.
Natural order is better than Magus of the Order more than pod is better than Vannifer.
Natural order is much better than pod tho. Requires much less to enable and it's ceiling is just as high if not higher.
If Magus flopped for you, I expect vannifer to flop. However, it's a solid playable in a dedicated pod deck and a fun card when you are chaining off.
I liked Magus of the order fwiw... Card is a 720 power level card atm imo.
Up the beanstalk seems sweet in a deck with multiple alternate casting costs (delve/FOW/Elementals), but that's too narrow for my taste.
I think organically in a ramp deck it's not going to be the engine you want it to be. Generally if a ramp deck is casting multiple 5+ cost cards it's in a good spot as it is and doesn't need more card advantage. Not terrible?
- Dark Depths was what I was leaning on first when I was thinking of new combos to add, but it requires more slots and has a lot more dead weight. Thopter + Sword only takes two slots, are generally more useful on their own, and helps my plan of bolstering more artifact based strategies.
I encourage the sword + thopter test and look forward to your findings.
I wanted to mention that dark depths combo was a fail when I first tested it years ago , but was pleasantly surprised with it once I tried it again and added enough support.
It has a lot of cross over with the lands.Dec deck, so a lot of the support peices aren’t like “dark depths only”. Thespian stage and vampire hexmage are the closest to unplayable but have some niche applications.
Crop rotation , knight of the reliquary and elvish reclaimer have cross over with strip mine/cradle abuse.
Fastbond and exploration can enable a whole archetype if supported enough.
Park map is a great card for
It, but not vintage legal.
A big incentive for my support of
It is If you assemble the perfect dark depths deck (cards I mentioned above, strip mine and a couple black tutors), it can compete with the very best archetypes in the cube.
If you are already deeply supporting lands, the combo really only takes up 3 slots and comes together more often than I predicted.
[quote from="steve_man »" url="/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-card-and-archetype/830619-bro-cube-scrapwork-mutt?comment=4"]
I agree it’s meh filler in most artifact decks or combo decks but I am happy to play the card in a reanimator deck.
I’d never cut a discard outlet that draws cards for 2 mana.
It’s better than anything that isn’t power, premium discard, top end, tutor, enabler or reanimator spell.
That sounds like a lot but in general reanimator decks are forced to play some generic good stuff cards, of which the mutt is better than.
I like it slightly better than say oonas prowler or putrid imp.
a big advantage it has over charming scoundrel is costing colourless. You can easily play it in a UB or mono B reanimator deck with like 2-3 red sources.
Yes, but discard outlets are a dime a dozen these days. Mono red alone has Faithless Looting / Cathartic Pyre / Bitter Reunion / Charming Scoundrel / etc. Black has the second of Entomb with Unmarked Grave. There are a ton of multicolored discard outlets in UR / UB color combination. Being colorless doesn't do it many favors when there's already an abundant number of effects that are better at being a discard outlet than this. Not to mention that Currency Converter also exists.
</blockquote>
Yes there are plenty of discard outlets available, but reanimator decks want plenty to function optimally. I cannot recall a pure reanimator deck that ive ever cut any serviceable discard outlets, especially ones that generate velocity. Reanimator decks are a mix of B, BU, BR, BG (and 3+ color). A colorless discard outlet is significantly more versatile than an off black one, period. The amount of discard outlets that exist reduce the critical need for additional discard outlets, but they aren't so plentiful as to invalidate the value of an additional mid-tier option.
To be clear, one of my initial arguments is that the card is better than a 23-24 playable in reanimator... Not that it's a critical piece for the archetype to function.
I probably wouldn’t play the mutt if I wasn’t also leaning into heavy welder support, but it’s a very reasonable card to support reanimator more while not being dead elsewhere.
I stumbled up on this scrolling in the leak section. My gut reflex is to ignore fight/protection spells for green as it's generally off plan for the green decks I support, but jesus is this one pushed. No way to blow you out with removal, protection , reach and can act as removal for 1 mana.
I don't know what kind of combos exist, but if you have untap/tap mechanisms besides combat, you can kill multiple things.
You can also generate extra mana with creatures like rofellos.
Particularly good if you support green agro and have middling creatures with high P/T
Mutt does a little bit of everything, but it's not particularly good at one of those things. This suffers card #24-25 syndrome for me in any deck that would want its abilities (aggro / reanimator / artifacts matters / etc), which makes it very filler-ish to me. Charming Scoundrel is much better all around. I think Jaxis, the Troublemaker also does a lot of what this wants to do while fitting into more red strategies since it's more inherently aggressive and has some very powerful interactions with its copy ability.
I agree it’s meh filler in most artifact decks or combo decks but I am happy to play the card in a reanimator deck.
I’d never cut a discard outlet that draws cards for 2 mana.
It’s better than anything that isn’t power, premium discard, top end, tutor, enabler or reanimator spell.
That sounds like a lot but in general reanimator decks are forced to play some generic good stuff cards, of which the mutt is better than.
I like it slightly better than say oonas prowler or putrid imp.
a big advantage it has over charming scoundrel is costing colourless. You can easily play it in a UB or mono B reanimator deck with like 2-3 red sources.
I love this card as an enabler. Ive had it in my cube for almost a year? It's never amazing, but it does exactly what you want it to do in a reanimator deck or a welder deck. Sees play in decks that need critical artifact thresholds as well.
Weird set for me. Am trying a lot of new stuff out in my cube right now so am not in a mood to test much that I don’t think has a high chance of sticking. A ton of cards from this set on the fringes but no obvious staples.
Likelyhood I see it in my cube for a year+
75%+
Restless vinestalk
Court of garenbrig (some chance I axe All monarch and initiative, orherwise it’d be auto)
25%+
the goose mother
10%+
Virtue of loyalty
the Other manlands and gruff triplets are my most likely other tests. Maybe some of the multi color adventure cards. Likely a sleeper from there.
Wheee! Embrace the power creep.
Not close for me, worse than thirst’s, of which I run neither (but I want to).
“Draw x cards” have to be ultra efficient for me to want them with all the draw punishing effects that exist and cards that generate card advantage and play to the battlefield.
Would have loved for this effect to be mono coloured. My cube aggressively supports blink , but even I have trouble justifying this over a teferi , soulherder or a genesis engine to try it out.
seems solid, some people might want it for synergy/variety but for me it falls short of the competition. I’ll pass on testing it.
I hope I’m wrong!
crop rotation is key if you support dark depths imo.
I love zuran orb. I have duplcates that make fastbond + zuran orb + crucible more consistent, but even if I was singleton I’d probably still include orb.
The combo would come together uncommonly in singleton, but when it does it’s really unique/fun.
Orb sees very fringe play outside the combo, but it’s not dead.
if you add Titania , even more reason to play it!
I'm starting to see thragtusk as 24-25th playable that has anti-agro sideboard applications at the moment.
Titania is way more narrow, but it has way more upside.
The only way I'd say Titania > thragtusk is if
If you run a full land package where it can get back very powerful lands (dark depths, strip mine etc.) , you support explore effects (dryad of elysian grove, exploration) AND you run zuran orb for the sac combo. (duplicate fetchlands help too)
This got tested a lot in standard/pioneer/modern early into the cards life cycle and it fell out of favor everywhere.
I'd consider testing it in a modern legal cube, but doesn't interest me otherwise. Lightning strike clones seems better to me in a faster format because of the speed of damage and the ability to answer 3 toughness things . Slow the format down and that pendulum swings the other way. The potential value is worth the damage offset. In MOM limited it was a bomb and way better than a lightning strike.
Also depends on how your red decks are trying to win
Tainted > Ransom
Tainted is more on plan with what the color combination is trying to do.
Generally I like UB to be hard reanimator, soft reanimator (value reanimator/control) or tempo/control - prioritizing delve spells. There's some fringe UB combo decks too.
Tainted is so much better in a reanimator shell than Sauron's ransom, that it makes up for it being worse in a control/combo shell.
Unless all your play group is 100% active and up to date on all the new cards/mechanics , I'd dock points from sauron's ransom because of the rings tempt mechanic.
Natural order is better than Magus of the Order more than pod is better than Vannifer.
Natural order is much better than pod tho. Requires much less to enable and it's ceiling is just as high if not higher.
If Magus flopped for you, I expect vannifer to flop. However, it's a solid playable in a dedicated pod deck and a fun card when you are chaining off.
I liked Magus of the order fwiw... Card is a 720 power level card atm imo.
Up the beanstalk seems sweet in a deck with multiple alternate casting costs (delve/FOW/Elementals), but that's too narrow for my taste.
I think organically in a ramp deck it's not going to be the engine you want it to be. Generally if a ramp deck is casting multiple 5+ cost cards it's in a good spot as it is and doesn't need more card advantage. Not terrible?
I encourage the sword + thopter test and look forward to your findings.
I wanted to mention that dark depths combo was a fail when I first tested it years ago , but was pleasantly surprised with it once I tried it again and added enough support.
It has a lot of cross over with the lands.Dec deck, so a lot of the support peices aren’t like “dark depths only”. Thespian stage and vampire hexmage are the closest to unplayable but have some niche applications.
Crop rotation , knight of the reliquary and elvish reclaimer have cross over with strip mine/cradle abuse.
Fastbond and exploration can enable a whole archetype if supported enough.
Park map is a great card for
It, but not vintage legal.
A big incentive for my support of
It is If you assemble the perfect dark depths deck (cards I mentioned above, strip mine and a couple black tutors), it can compete with the very best archetypes in the cube.
If you are already deeply supporting lands, the combo really only takes up 3 slots and comes together more often than I predicted.
Yes there are plenty of discard outlets available, but reanimator decks want plenty to function optimally. I cannot recall a pure reanimator deck that ive ever cut any serviceable discard outlets, especially ones that generate velocity. Reanimator decks are a mix of B, BU, BR, BG (and 3+ color). A colorless discard outlet is significantly more versatile than an off black one, period. The amount of discard outlets that exist reduce the critical need for additional discard outlets, but they aren't so plentiful as to invalidate the value of an additional mid-tier option.
To be clear, one of my initial arguments is that the card is better than a 23-24 playable in reanimator... Not that it's a critical piece for the archetype to function.
I probably wouldn’t play the mutt if I wasn’t also leaning into heavy welder support, but it’s a very reasonable card to support reanimator more while not being dead elsewhere.
I stumbled up on this scrolling in the leak section. My gut reflex is to ignore fight/protection spells for green as it's generally off plan for the green decks I support, but jesus is this one pushed. No way to blow you out with removal, protection , reach and can act as removal for 1 mana.
I don't know what kind of combos exist, but if you have untap/tap mechanisms besides combat, you can kill multiple things.
You can also generate extra mana with creatures like rofellos.
Particularly good if you support green agro and have middling creatures with high P/T
I agree it’s meh filler in most artifact decks or combo decks but I am happy to play the card in a reanimator deck.
I’d never cut a discard outlet that draws cards for 2 mana.
It’s better than anything that isn’t power, premium discard, top end, tutor, enabler or reanimator spell.
That sounds like a lot but in general reanimator decks are forced to play some generic good stuff cards, of which the mutt is better than.
I like it slightly better than say oonas prowler or putrid imp.
a big advantage it has over charming scoundrel is costing colourless. You can easily play it in a UB or mono B reanimator deck with like 2-3 red sources.
The unearth is an important part of the card fwiw
Depends what you prioritize
Likelyhood I see it in my cube for a year+
75%+
Restless vinestalk
Court of garenbrig (some chance I axe All monarch and initiative, orherwise it’d be auto)
25%+
the goose mother
10%+
Virtue of loyalty
the Other manlands and gruff triplets are my most likely other tests. Maybe some of the multi color adventure cards. Likely a sleeper from there.
Not close for me, worse than thirst’s, of which I run neither (but I want to).
“Draw x cards” have to be ultra efficient for me to want them with all the draw punishing effects that exist and cards that generate card advantage and play to the battlefield.
seems solid, some people might want it for synergy/variety but for me it falls short of the competition. I’ll pass on testing it.
I hope I’m wrong!