I like him a lot, going to proxy him up and test him! Also, more reason to run dark ritual. Almost debating cutting more of the 1CMC cards and running Chalice of the Void. It hoses so many cards in the current meta.
Yes he seems to be very expensive. Just some short thoughts from my side. I think he is pretty nice designed and very powerful. If you are behind your opponent (assuming he trys to win with creatures) you can jumpblock and gain some nice life back - if you have some support with Liliana / Mishra / Nether Spirit it`s getting a weird situation:
Either your opponent trys to hunt sorin down - this somehow will save you some turns and finding a solution, or you will stall the board and use his ultimate to really turn the game at once. If you play him on the empty board, pop out 1-2 tokens (depending if you have mishra online) and make emblems to rush the oponent.
If have used the W/B shell discussed some pages before. Though, I think Bloodghast does not perform in this list quite well:
- due to the white splash and the fact that Mox Diamond should be implemented we don`t have the slots to be aggressive (at least I cant find them - please correct me otherwise, had the same issues with a B/G built - bloodghast does just work extremely good in a aggressive built with pox and rack support; ZAthe`s / Scicion of God builts show how controllish those builts look like and I believe his built works fine)
- In this built I think pox should be used max as one off, as Vindicate really gives a great solution thus beeing spot removal for everything the tokens stay alive which also helps alot
- In the games I have played so far I rushed above 25 life quite quickly after Sorin has stabled the field - this advantage would be eleminated with pox
- As Sorin costs 4mana pox is also not that handy - I had even games where I dont want to cast Smallpox!
So my suggestions on the list and open slots some pages ago:
-4 Bloodghast which leaves us at 9 open slots
+4 Vindicate
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Cursed Scroll (works great without playing pox)
+1 Crucible of Worlds
+1 Enlightened Tutor
Though I had just played some random games. However, I liked Bitterblossom very much. At the moment I would even consider reducing 1 Lili and maybe add Ghostly prison - as there are really no more interaction with liliana expect from crucible...
Some guy wrote 1-2 pages ago that we might consider to play a special Sorin Deck. I think he might be right, just imagine the following cards:
Might be a B/W built which is a hybrid of Staxx and Pox - dont know if that works somehow
Would love to hear some feedback on these thoughts. And after looking a little bit around, Sorin might be around 40€ which is really a lot - but I`m afraid he`s worth that money (by the way alfiriel, where have you preorderd Sorin and for how much - PN would be nice)
Best Regards,
BadTouch
I think it is very possible to include Sorin into this deck. The problem comes in when you add too much 3CMC+ cards. If you focus too much on sorin this deck becomes Deadguy Ale, or a BW death and taxes. I think Bitterblossom is a great addition. It has always worked decently for me, and when it didn't, not much would help me anyways.
I also like the new BW land: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/94/735/635032496593962804.jpg
Yes it is 4 mana to activate but combined with Sorin, bloodghasts, and bitterblossom...ouch. In a white shell with Flagstones of Trokair, you should never have a reason not to play smallpox. I agree with Pox though, not a huge fan of more than 2 of those and vindicate. Just my thoughts.
I like vindicate but its possible it is too slow, while incredibly useful and awesome does it do enough? I would also advocate at least 1-2 Flagstones of Trokair. With Urborgs and smallpox they are solid. What's the opponent going to do, wasteland them? Karakas is a must though!
Imho Sorin itself wants as much creatures as he can get, in order to use his -2, but Pox is limited in its creature choices so I figured 4 Mishra's would be ok. 3 should be ok too, if the deck struggles with its colored mana.
I think it is worth at least a test. Since he is GG that build tends to run more lands/Mox Diamond so getting him out 1st turn into 2nd turn smallpox seems solid. It is also very possible he ends up being too expensive to want to play. What makes bloodghast good is he is essentially continuously free. I do however like this guy in conjunction with Kitchen Finks and or Eternal Witness but you would need to run more creatures which screw things up.
But I do think the deck need another win condition, hopefully one day I will find one.
Quest for the Nihil Stone If you can drop it early and they have no instant speed draw, it will punish them and hard. Is it good? maybe, could be worth a test
I was looking through some older posts and found Quest for the Nihil Stone...Now I know it is similar to the rack but has anyone tried it out?
I know the rack is an artifact so less hate, it is colorless which can be significant in a multicolored pox build. Can potentially start damaging immediately. However it can do very little sometimes.
cons for QotNS:
Can sit there for a while if you have no discard or they can draw a card during their upkeep. Easier to disrupt. Not an artifact? You "MAY", so you can forget about it.
I don't get what is so special about the unearth interaction. You basically just get a 2/1 for an extra black mana. Plus Snapcaster has to be in your graveyard.
Well to be honest Unearth is terrible if you don't have the creatures to support it. With how much pox makes everyone sacrifice or lili discarding, using utility creatures like eternal witness and kitchen finks is awesome. Hell even a single Skaab Ruinator. Life loss with pox is a real concern.
Unearth changes the focus of the deck which may be a good or bad thing. I have had great success with it on MWS. I love creatures though so I am bias
I don't think you would have to commit that heavily to blue. You can cut out the majority of draw, counters and other garbage and focus on what would help. I think you could have something testable with 8-13 blue cards.
Brainstorm: card draw/filter that pox (least in my testing) sorely needs.
Snapcaster Mage: I know he is everwhere but he is so good...combined with IoK/Thoughtseize, brainstorm, surgical extraction, hymn, innocent blood, unearth (this card is insane, return snap for 1 mana, flashback it for another creature (eternal witness and kitchen finks are crazy good with this) cycle it if all else fails) the list goes on...
Stifle: This card is surprisingly useful and only rarely a dead card even lategame. A clutch stifle can stop planeswalkers, fetches, activated things like deeds, bombs, explosives, etc.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: As a singleton or as a deuce he provides a lot of utility and survivability for the long drawn out games. May be too hard to reliably cast with big Pox but plays so well with Lili and all the destruction pox packs.
I hope to test out a blue pox version this weekend at a local tourney. I'm not sure the exact build I will try but I'll post my results when I get them. The biggest problem with shifting to more blue is the CMC...chalice of the void straight up rapes.
@CRish3: It isn't that much like Team America (although I never understood why you would name a deck Team America without it being R/W/U). Using staple color cards like Brainstorm, Snaps, Bob, Hymn, etc doesn't make it the same. Sure some of the newer versions run some similar cards, this has more recursion and destruction without so much blue.
That being said, I could try using a couple Pox, and change around the creatures, just trying to think a little outside the box...
Hello, I have been a long time fan of Pox. Here are a couple of lists I have been testing out recently.
BUG Pox - I have been playing around with this. The mana base can be tough at times. The combination of eternal witness, unearth and snapcaster is awesomely fun. Infact Unearth has been absolutely devestating almost everytime I have been able to use it. Been toying with ruinator or terravore, ruinator seems better, tough to say, there have been times he's a dead draw but can always be pitched to Lili then unearthed. Also been playing with Garruk Relentless over Jace TMS...both have won me games and both have been useless, sometimes the extra bodies have been key but other times I have needed the fixing Jace gives...
BU Pox - I have been really loving this build. It can screw people over so bad and slow tempo like you wouldn't believe. Waste, Spox, stifle and surgical can absolutely rape. Been having troubles with aggro, playing around with Innocent blood and some more removal over tempo loss, results to come. Still working on sideboards, Thinking about using spell snare, counter suites, Chalice of the void, and delver of secrets, dunno how I feel about that as it strays from the theme but offers some nice resiliency.
I am a long time reader of these forums but first time poster. I have been having a love affair with Innistrad and decided to share a decklist I have been brewing. I know there are many other similar decks running out there but this brew has been pretty nasty in the few test games I have managed to play so far. Here is my favorite draft so far:
Creatures: All of the creatures listed should be obvious. The deck has a very low curve topping out at 3 for Clique and Liliana so Confidant works out well. Snapcaster is a new face but being able to flashback a Hymn or Brainstorm is awesome and there is plenty of fodder for him. Bloodghast is primarily for what he does best, recursion, and pitching. Bitterblossom and Clique are there for utility, finishing or whatever is required. Having 10 wizards to bounce with riptide can be absolutely backbreaking and can set up for some hilarious tricks.
Poxes: Both cards are very similar to each other and even alone these cards can cripple opponents. Liliana can be hard to keep out but in the worst she's an edict every other turn assuming she isn't beaten, burned or removed.
Spells: You have your standard discard package with Thoughtseize and Hymn. I have been finding in some matches I have been drawing too much discard and not enough wincons. It may be beneficial to swap out either hymn or thoughtseize for Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Stifle or other similar cards. Brainstorm is just amazing and is needed for filtering and card draw. With how much discard, and removal this deck packs Surgical/Extirpate are amazing. Very rarely had I wished it was something else. It is hard to decide which is better as both have had their pros and cons in terms of lifeloss vs uncounterability.
Lands: The mana base is pretty up in the air. I haven't had enough testing to really have a problem so far. I haven't had too many problems with the wrong colors although I have had useless wastelands cluttering my field. It is sometimes hard to get the right colored mana early but come midgame it hasn't been a problem. I haven't drawn many of the 1 ofs in most of my games but when I have they have been solid.
Other cards to test:
There are a bunch of cards I have been wanting to test as they seem to have some very fun synergies with the deck.
Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy
These cards are so good with Snapcaster. They work well with Liliana and Bitterblossom. Card draw and targeted removal may be a necessity. To be tested.
Death's Shadow
Believe it or not with all the lifeloss in this deck (thoughtseize, smallpox, fetches, bob, bitterblossom, surgical, etc this guy can be an absolute beast. The only problem is he has no evasion but with more removal he can be a sick finisher. Currently testing him more.
Diabolic Edict, Chainer's Edict, Geth's Verdict, Innocent Blood
These cards are needed in today's meta but they become increasingly worse as the game progresses. Targeted removal may be better for more aggro based decks but as long as you are constantly on top of creature removal these can be better. There are others to be included of course that I have not listed like Smother, Dismember, Doom Blade, etc.
Daze, Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell
Your counterspell suite. I personally am not a fan of counters and choose to run discard over it. Adding them would certainly change the feel of the deck.
Vengeful Pharaoh
1 of but could be fun, has good synergy with the deck. Utility and a solid late-game beater.
Tombstalker, Abyssal Persecutor
Both would be finishers. Tomb is a tough sell with bob. Has both good synergy and bad depending on how the game is going. Abyssal I like better but can be incredibly difficult to remove. Would have to side in a little bit more removal but can be very difficult to deal with.
Why can't it be pitched? It also survives a pox/smallpox and gets bigger. Seems pretty good.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/94/836/635032496620171476.jpg
I like him a lot, going to proxy him up and test him! Also, more reason to run dark ritual. Almost debating cutting more of the 1CMC cards and running Chalice of the Void. It hoses so many cards in the current meta.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/94/755/635032496599266940.jpg
ouch...thanks wizards
I think it is very possible to include Sorin into this deck. The problem comes in when you add too much 3CMC+ cards. If you focus too much on sorin this deck becomes Deadguy Ale, or a BW death and taxes. I think Bitterblossom is a great addition. It has always worked decently for me, and when it didn't, not much would help me anyways.
I also like the new BW land: http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/94/735/635032496593962804.jpg
Yes it is 4 mana to activate but combined with Sorin, bloodghasts, and bitterblossom...ouch. In a white shell with Flagstones of Trokair, you should never have a reason not to play smallpox. I agree with Pox though, not a huge fan of more than 2 of those and vindicate. Just my thoughts.
I like vindicate but its possible it is too slow, while incredibly useful and awesome does it do enough? I would also advocate at least 1-2 Flagstones of Trokair. With Urborgs and smallpox they are solid. What's the opponent going to do, wasteland them? Karakas is a must though!
The problem is Gerrard's verdict could be good in pox as life is needed but hymn is just better sadly. One great thing about including white is Flagstones of Trokair, and Karakas. Also access to Path to Exile/Swords to Plowshares.
I hope Sorin works out. He seems solid, even if bland flavorwise...would be sick in deadguy ale...
I think it is worth at least a test. Since he is GG that build tends to run more lands/Mox Diamond so getting him out 1st turn into 2nd turn smallpox seems solid. It is also very possible he ends up being too expensive to want to play. What makes bloodghast good is he is essentially continuously free. I do however like this guy in conjunction with Kitchen Finks and or Eternal Witness but you would need to run more creatures which screw things up.
I like the new Gravecrawler.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/94/518/635032496530781184.jpg
If only there were more zombies other than Skullbriar, the Walking Grave...why cant bloodghast have been a zombie
another card to consider is Unearth. So much fun to play and very versatile, especially with Eternal Witness, Finks and the other CMC 3 dudes.
Quest for the Nihil Stone If you can drop it early and they have no instant speed draw, it will punish them and hard. Is it good? maybe, could be worth a test
I know the rack is an artifact so less hate, it is colorless which can be significant in a multicolored pox build. Can potentially start damaging immediately. However it can do very little sometimes.
pros for QotNS:
Easily turned on. 4 turn clock (usually less). Losing life > dealing damage. Doesn't target. Awesome with Chains of Mephistopheles and Liliana of the Veil.
cons for QotNS:
Can sit there for a while if you have no discard or they can draw a card during their upkeep. Easier to disrupt. Not an artifact? You "MAY", so you can forget about it.
Thoughts? Could it be a possibility?
Well to be honest Unearth is terrible if you don't have the creatures to support it. With how much pox makes everyone sacrifice or lili discarding, using utility creatures like eternal witness and kitchen finks is awesome. Hell even a single Skaab Ruinator. Life loss with pox is a real concern.
Unearth changes the focus of the deck which may be a good or bad thing. I have had great success with it on MWS. I love creatures though so I am bias
Brainstorm: card draw/filter that pox (least in my testing) sorely needs.
Snapcaster Mage: I know he is everwhere but he is so good...combined with IoK/Thoughtseize, brainstorm, surgical extraction, hymn, innocent blood, unearth (this card is insane, return snap for 1 mana, flashback it for another creature (eternal witness and kitchen finks are crazy good with this) cycle it if all else fails) the list goes on...
Stifle: This card is surprisingly useful and only rarely a dead card even lategame. A clutch stifle can stop planeswalkers, fetches, activated things like deeds, bombs, explosives, etc.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor: As a singleton or as a deuce he provides a lot of utility and survivability for the long drawn out games. May be too hard to reliably cast with big Pox but plays so well with Lili and all the destruction pox packs.
I hope to test out a blue pox version this weekend at a local tourney. I'm not sure the exact build I will try but I'll post my results when I get them. The biggest problem with shifting to more blue is the CMC...chalice of the void straight up rapes.
That being said, I could try using a couple Pox, and change around the creatures, just trying to think a little outside the box...
I haven't read too far back into the pox but I think blue could offer some interesting choices even if it isn't the best splash color.
Snapcaster Mage, Brainstorm/draw/fixing, Vendilion Clique, Stifle, Propaganda, Back to Basics, Flusterstorm/counters, elemental blasts, Phantasmal Image/clones, Chain of vapor/bounce
BUG Pox - I have been playing around with this. The mana base can be tough at times. The combination of eternal witness, unearth and snapcaster is awesomely fun. Infact Unearth has been absolutely devestating almost everytime I have been able to use it. Been toying with ruinator or terravore, ruinator seems better, tough to say, there have been times he's a dead draw but can always be pitched to Lili then unearthed. Also been playing with Garruk Relentless over Jace TMS...both have won me games and both have been useless, sometimes the extra bodies have been key but other times I have needed the fixing Jace gives...
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Eternal Witness
1 Skaab Ruinator
3 Kitchen Finks
Spells - 17
4 Smallpox
4 Unearth
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Worm Harvest
3 Life from the Loam
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Mox Diamond
Lands - 21
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
BU Pox - I have been really loving this build. It can screw people over so bad and slow tempo like you wouldn't believe. Waste, Spox, stifle and surgical can absolutely rape. Been having troubles with aggro, playing around with Innocent blood and some more removal over tempo loss, results to come. Still working on sideboards, Thinking about using spell snare, counter suites, Chalice of the void, and delver of secrets, dunno how I feel about that as it strays from the theme but offers some nice resiliency.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Dark Confidant
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells - 20
4 Stifle
4 Smallpox
2 Unearth
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Bitterblossom
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Mox Diamond
Lands - 22
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Riptide Laboratory
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Bloodghast
3 Bitterblossom
2 Vendilion Clique
Poxes:
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Smallpox
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
Lands:
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Riptide Laboratory
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Swamp
3 Island
Card Choices:
Poxes: Both cards are very similar to each other and even alone these cards can cripple opponents. Liliana can be hard to keep out but in the worst she's an edict every other turn assuming she isn't beaten, burned or removed.
Spells: You have your standard discard package with Thoughtseize and Hymn. I have been finding in some matches I have been drawing too much discard and not enough wincons. It may be beneficial to swap out either hymn or thoughtseize for Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict, Stifle or other similar cards. Brainstorm is just amazing and is needed for filtering and card draw. With how much discard, and removal this deck packs Surgical/Extirpate are amazing. Very rarely had I wished it was something else. It is hard to decide which is better as both have had their pros and cons in terms of lifeloss vs uncounterability.
Lands: The mana base is pretty up in the air. I haven't had enough testing to really have a problem so far. I haven't had too many problems with the wrong colors although I have had useless wastelands cluttering my field. It is sometimes hard to get the right colored mana early but come midgame it hasn't been a problem. I haven't drawn many of the 1 ofs in most of my games but when I have they have been solid.
Other cards to test:
Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy
These cards are so good with Snapcaster. They work well with Liliana and Bitterblossom. Card draw and targeted removal may be a necessity. To be tested.
Death's Shadow
Believe it or not with all the lifeloss in this deck (thoughtseize, smallpox, fetches, bob, bitterblossom, surgical, etc this guy can be an absolute beast. The only problem is he has no evasion but with more removal he can be a sick finisher. Currently testing him more.
Diabolic Edict, Chainer's Edict, Geth's Verdict, Innocent Blood
These cards are needed in today's meta but they become increasingly worse as the game progresses. Targeted removal may be better for more aggro based decks but as long as you are constantly on top of creature removal these can be better. There are others to be included of course that I have not listed like Smother, Dismember, Doom Blade, etc.
Daze, Force of Will, Spell Snare, Counterspell
Your counterspell suite. I personally am not a fan of counters and choose to run discard over it. Adding them would certainly change the feel of the deck.
Vengeful Pharaoh
1 of but could be fun, has good synergy with the deck. Utility and a solid late-game beater.
Tombstalker, Abyssal Persecutor
Both would be finishers. Tomb is a tough sell with bob. Has both good synergy and bad depending on how the game is going. Abyssal I like better but can be incredibly difficult to remove. Would have to side in a little bit more removal but can be very difficult to deal with.
Jace, the Mind Sculpter
No description necessary. He wins games by himself.
Standstill
I have a lot of Love/Hate with this card. Still very good.
I haven't dealt too much with a sideboard. Possible Includes: Perish, Leyline of the Void, Pithing Needle or Phyrexian Revoker, Edicts, Tormod's Crypt, Hydroblast or Blue Elemental Blast, Propaganda
Comments welcomed and needed!