Ongoing investigation seems perfect! I'm almost envisioning a small green splash with one tamiyo.. would have to test the mana base a lot though. The second ability of ongoing investigation is actually very strong.
They went with Bant for Duskwatch because it gives you a late game mana sink. The biggest problem for our deck, and it may be its ultimate downfall, is flooding out. However, there were more UW spirits than Bant spirits at the PT, and I still believe UW is stronger just based on consistency.
Subjugator Angel doesn't help a whole lot for us since most of our creatures are flyers. We don't really need to tap the opponents entire board (unless the spirit mirror becomes more common). Currently, nebelgast is good enough to stop their one or two flying blockers if needed.
It's likely you are trying to play a different deck. O-Command is your payoff draw-go spell. If you are running Always Watching, then you aren't playing draw-go, and that is probably why you are not liking the card.
Even with always watching, you will not have a strong board presence against other decks. Hell even against the mirror your creatures have 2 toughness to my two power. Making them equal. The ability to control the game in the air and counter the control elements of your opponent is the key to the deck. Always watching does not apply pressure or prevent your opponent from stopping your game plan. It only adds to the pressure you have already set up (at which point you were likely already winning).
It seems like you are trying to play a flying version of Wr Humans aggro, which isn't playing to the strengths of the spirit deck. You will get demolished by your opponent's Elder Deep-Fiends, Emrakuls, and Ishkanahs without always having counterspell at the ready. I get that you may be trying to win prior to them being able to cast those cards, and Always Watching helps you in that aspect, but I don't think that is a game winning approach. Your opponent will have a ton of removal, and you will need o defend against it with either more creatures or counterspells. Always watching is almost a dead card against midrange and control in spirits (it has a much better application in straight aggro though). I'll concede that always watching is helpful against liliana and the buff to wanderer is nice, but not necessary.
The best game plan I've found is to apply enough pressure to be winning the race to 0 life, while backing up your pressure with counterspells and end of turn creatures. You can easily win games with 2 creatures on the board, and continue to hit your opponent for 3-4 dmg each turn while avoiding sweeper blow outs, and countering any large game winning type spells your opponent has.
Been testing this deck a lot and came up with the following observations (which seem to differ from many here).
Always Watching is awful. It adds nothing to the board and is literally just a win more card. The only time I like it is against lili decks, so I have kept it in the sideboard as a 1-2 of. It is actually terrible in the mirror or against bant where you are just trying to out tempo your opponent. Always watching belongs in a deck as its curve topper, not in a tempo deck like this one. It is much more important to keep playing creatures and defending them with countermagic. Draw-go is our best advantage and Always Watching is not where we want to be.
Ojutai's Command is one of the best cards in the deck. Some of you may just be playing it wrong, I'm not sure. It is almost always a 2 for 1, is never dead and, with the way the pro tour is shaping up, is fantastic against the new meta (emerge, Ishkanah and emrakul). I can't see having less than three in the mainboard.
I was not a believer in Substantiate, but after further testing I agree it is very important. And is basically my only removal at this point. I don't care for it as a 4 of, since you rarely want multiples in your hand. But as a 2 or 3 of it works amazingly.
Elder Deep-Fiend I am still on the fence about. I do like the card and it has tested OK, especially against midrange decks. It wasn't great against Bant or the mirror though. Also, more and more decks are valuing instant spells, which makes elder deep-fiend worse. I decided to remove it since I felt Archangel was more powerful in my testing and offered more blowout situations. Also, nebelgast had a lot of the same effects as Deep Fiend in the late game.
Lastly, I noticed the deck fails to win anytime it floods out. I am still working on ways to address this. The best answer I have is Spectral Shepherd. The card is almost unbeatable for black midrange deck, and also gives you a lot of small combos when you have the mana. However, it is terrible early game, and duplicates do nothing together. Thus it's only a one of, and doesn't consistently solve the original problem of flooding out. I've tried Bygone Bishop in the main, but then I felt overloaded on 3 drops that are weak early in the game. I still might go back to two bishops in the main depending on the meta though (if it gets grindier as the pro tour might be suggesting)
I really like Jeff's control build, but the lack of nebelgast herald just seems wrong. Really feels like you can combine tempo and control. For example:
Been working on a list for a few months now, and have kept tuning to the meta. Recently tested a lot on cockatrice and having fantastic results against meta decks. Esper Dragons can't beat Den Protectors. If you draw even one game one you have the advantage in that game. I would put this list at about 50% against control g1, and 60-70% after sideboard. It isn't much of an upgrade against red decks, but in those matchups you just need to play whip to win.
Pretty sure my sideboard is too heavy anti-control, and might need one more anti-aggro spell and another anti midrange spell. Abzan with anafenza can be a *****...
So I think I was right about not needing caryatid. Just saw the only undefeated list at GP LA is an aggressive abzan list that uses coursers without caryatids.
The question I have is how important is sylvan caryatid? I plan on trying an abzan list that still runs coursers but instead of caryatid, uses lions and deathdealers at the two drop. This way I gain better end game top decks; though I lose out on early game acceleration or mana fixing.
My argument for not needing mana fixing is I can easily create a 25 land mana base with 17g, 17b, and 16w... I don't think caryatid is that necessary for mana fixing.
As far as acceleration, sure that is nice to see turn 3 rhinos. But a turn 2 lion into removal or Anafenza (or even courser) turn 3, and finally a turn 4 rhino isn't bad either.
And every time I play the mirror I feel like all that matters is who draws better in the late game or wins super early due to pressure backed by removal. Both scenarios where I don't think caryatid helps much.
Also, in a deck without caryatid I'm really digging my MD Ajani and Wingate rocs even more!
A card you're missing which could be very strong with 4 Kiora is Fog. I've found pulling of Kiora's ult to be pretty easy in bant control and having fog almost ensures it will happen. I like the simic charms though too, and the list seems very tight. So maybe fog is just for the sideboard.
I'm having a real struggle between Liliana's Reaver and Desecration Demon.
While Desecration Demon is a better card in its own right, reaver synergizes with the deck better. It works better with whip, it works better with detain, and it ensures your opponent cant just attack into you without fear of return dmg since they can just sac a creature to stop demon.
However, everytime I see a lone blood baron enter the field I wish reaver was a desecration demon...
Playing less than 25 lands seems like a huge mistake. I don't like the deck with less than 26 personally. Missing land drops is what kills me most of the time. With 8 Temples in the deck, you can scry away what you don't need on land-heavy draws.
Wish I had read this before Wednesday night... Played a local tourney, about 8 people, and the only games I lost were because of being mana light. 25 is indeed the minimum land count for this deck.
Also, I've gone back to cartel aristocrat as a 2 of so when I bring in soul ransom from the sideboard it becomes an even stronger card. Precinct Captain was nice, but even with 17 white mana sources it still feels a bit rough. Next thing I'm trying out is Liliana's Reaver over Desecration Demon. There's a lot of manipulation to allow your reaver to get through and hit your opponent, doubly so using a whip of erebos after a supreme verdict. The effect is very strong if it hits. Desecration Demon was nice as a fat body with flying, but it did always feel like it didn't belong in the deck. I will miss it for dealing with flyers though... We shall see.
CFBs articles seem worse and worse every time I read them. If anyone has played this deck they'd understand there's interaction between each card. Whip is important in recurring your creatures after you verdict. Xathrid necromancer makes verdict feel one sided. And desecration demon + obzedat are your best whip targets.
If you're goal is to just play a three color white weenie deck you'd be better off with just going W/B aggro.
The idea behind this deck is to start with early pressure if possible and be able to keep that pressure on by controlling the mid game with verdict/detention sphere/removal/lyev skynight. Backed up with the obzedat/whip combo to win the late game.
I have not enjoyed using cartel aristocrat in the deck though, even against aggro where it is the most useful. I've tuned the deck to be more consistent of a mana base while incorporating the card I think best shuts down red (as well as control decks and opposing desecration demons); Precinct Captain. Precinct Captain allows you to have more defense against aggro decks while also being a better threat to close the game than a Daring Skyjet. However, this cost the inclusion of mutavault to allow for more white mana sources. I did notice in playtest that mutavault was not being used to its potential anyways since you almost always will tap all of your mana each turn, or leave it up for removal. Mutavualt wasn't a big loss.
24 Lands might be a little light and I may have to find room for one more land... but the curve isn't that high and my 1-3 cc cards are pretty high impact until I get to 5 mana.
I tested the previous version seen online at a local PTQ and the changes above are what I'm proposing as a result. I ended up 4 and 3 before dropping. Should have been 5 and 2 if I hadn't misplayed my final game, either way not enough to top 8. This deck is a lot of fun, but its inconsistency was obvious, hopefully taking out the mutavaults will help.
Subjugator Angel doesn't help a whole lot for us since most of our creatures are flyers. We don't really need to tap the opponents entire board (unless the spirit mirror becomes more common). Currently, nebelgast is good enough to stop their one or two flying blockers if needed.
Even with always watching, you will not have a strong board presence against other decks. Hell even against the mirror your creatures have 2 toughness to my two power. Making them equal. The ability to control the game in the air and counter the control elements of your opponent is the key to the deck. Always watching does not apply pressure or prevent your opponent from stopping your game plan. It only adds to the pressure you have already set up (at which point you were likely already winning).
It seems like you are trying to play a flying version of Wr Humans aggro, which isn't playing to the strengths of the spirit deck. You will get demolished by your opponent's Elder Deep-Fiends, Emrakuls, and Ishkanahs without always having counterspell at the ready. I get that you may be trying to win prior to them being able to cast those cards, and Always Watching helps you in that aspect, but I don't think that is a game winning approach. Your opponent will have a ton of removal, and you will need o defend against it with either more creatures or counterspells. Always watching is almost a dead card against midrange and control in spirits (it has a much better application in straight aggro though). I'll concede that always watching is helpful against liliana and the buff to wanderer is nice, but not necessary.
The best game plan I've found is to apply enough pressure to be winning the race to 0 life, while backing up your pressure with counterspells and end of turn creatures. You can easily win games with 2 creatures on the board, and continue to hit your opponent for 3-4 dmg each turn while avoiding sweeper blow outs, and countering any large game winning type spells your opponent has.
Always Watching is awful. It adds nothing to the board and is literally just a win more card. The only time I like it is against lili decks, so I have kept it in the sideboard as a 1-2 of. It is actually terrible in the mirror or against bant where you are just trying to out tempo your opponent. Always watching belongs in a deck as its curve topper, not in a tempo deck like this one. It is much more important to keep playing creatures and defending them with countermagic. Draw-go is our best advantage and Always Watching is not where we want to be.
Ojutai's Command is one of the best cards in the deck. Some of you may just be playing it wrong, I'm not sure. It is almost always a 2 for 1, is never dead and, with the way the pro tour is shaping up, is fantastic against the new meta (emerge, Ishkanah and emrakul). I can't see having less than three in the mainboard.
I was not a believer in Substantiate, but after further testing I agree it is very important. And is basically my only removal at this point. I don't care for it as a 4 of, since you rarely want multiples in your hand. But as a 2 or 3 of it works amazingly.
Elder Deep-Fiend I am still on the fence about. I do like the card and it has tested OK, especially against midrange decks. It wasn't great against Bant or the mirror though. Also, more and more decks are valuing instant spells, which makes elder deep-fiend worse. I decided to remove it since I felt Archangel was more powerful in my testing and offered more blowout situations. Also, nebelgast had a lot of the same effects as Deep Fiend in the late game.
Lastly, I noticed the deck fails to win anytime it floods out. I am still working on ways to address this. The best answer I have is Spectral Shepherd. The card is almost unbeatable for black midrange deck, and also gives you a lot of small combos when you have the mana. However, it is terrible early game, and duplicates do nothing together. Thus it's only a one of, and doesn't consistently solve the original problem of flooding out. I've tried Bygone Bishop in the main, but then I felt overloaded on 3 drops that are weak early in the game. I still might go back to two bishops in the main depending on the meta though (if it gets grindier as the pro tour might be suggesting)
Here is where I'm currently at:
4 Rattlechains
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
4 Nebelgast Herald
3 Archangel Avacyn
1 Spectral Shepherd
4 Ojutai's Command
4 Clash of Wills
3 Unsubstantiate
Lands
2 Evolving Wilds
4 Port Town
8 Island
7 Plains
4 Prairie Stream
3 Negate
3 Bygone Bishop
1 Planar Outburst
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Dispel
1 Always Watching
2 Declaration in Stone
8 Island
1 Meandering River
8 Plains
4 Port Town
4 Prairie Stream
Creatures
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Rattlechains
4 Nebelgast Herald
4 Spell Queller
3 Archangel Avacyn
4 Clash of Wills
2 Essence Flux
3 Ojutai's Command
Sorceries
1 Planar Outburst
Enchantments
2 Stasis Snare
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Declaration in Stone
3 Negate
3 Bygone Bishop
2 Summary Dismissal
2 Planar Outburst
1 Confirm Suspicions
4 Satyr Wayfinder
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
2 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
3 Den Protector
3 Deathmist Raptor
Noncreature (9):
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Murderous Cut
2 Whip of Erebos
1 Sultai Charm
1 Thoughtseize
3 Forest
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Mana Confluence
2 Frontier Bivouac
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Opulent Palace
3 Temple of Malady
2 Yavimaya Coast
3 Thoughtseize
2 Stratus Dancer
1 Bile Blight
1 Ultimate Price
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Treasure Cruise
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Merciless Executioner
1 Soul of Innistrad
1 Crux of Fate
Pretty sure my sideboard is too heavy anti-control, and might need one more anti-aggro spell and another anti midrange spell. Abzan with anafenza can be a *****...
Suggestions?
Is thoughtseize that bad in the current meta?
My argument for not needing mana fixing is I can easily create a 25 land mana base with 17g, 17b, and 16w... I don't think caryatid is that necessary for mana fixing.
As far as acceleration, sure that is nice to see turn 3 rhinos. But a turn 2 lion into removal or Anafenza (or even courser) turn 3, and finally a turn 4 rhino isn't bad either.
And every time I play the mirror I feel like all that matters is who draws better in the late game or wins super early due to pressure backed by removal. Both scenarios where I don't think caryatid helps much.
Also, in a deck without caryatid I'm really digging my MD Ajani and Wingate rocs even more!
Food for thought.
While Desecration Demon is a better card in its own right, reaver synergizes with the deck better. It works better with whip, it works better with detain, and it ensures your opponent cant just attack into you without fear of return dmg since they can just sac a creature to stop demon.
However, everytime I see a lone blood baron enter the field I wish reaver was a desecration demon...
Wish I had read this before Wednesday night... Played a local tourney, about 8 people, and the only games I lost were because of being mana light. 25 is indeed the minimum land count for this deck.
Also, I've gone back to cartel aristocrat as a 2 of so when I bring in soul ransom from the sideboard it becomes an even stronger card. Precinct Captain was nice, but even with 17 white mana sources it still feels a bit rough. Next thing I'm trying out is Liliana's Reaver over Desecration Demon. There's a lot of manipulation to allow your reaver to get through and hit your opponent, doubly so using a whip of erebos after a supreme verdict. The effect is very strong if it hits. Desecration Demon was nice as a fat body with flying, but it did always feel like it didn't belong in the deck. I will miss it for dealing with flyers though... We shall see.
If you're goal is to just play a three color white weenie deck you'd be better off with just going W/B aggro.
The idea behind this deck is to start with early pressure if possible and be able to keep that pressure on by controlling the mid game with verdict/detention sphere/removal/lyev skynight. Backed up with the obzedat/whip combo to win the late game.
I have not enjoyed using cartel aristocrat in the deck though, even against aggro where it is the most useful. I've tuned the deck to be more consistent of a mana base while incorporating the card I think best shuts down red (as well as control decks and opposing desecration demons); Precinct Captain. Precinct Captain allows you to have more defense against aggro decks while also being a better threat to close the game than a Daring Skyjet. However, this cost the inclusion of mutavault to allow for more white mana sources. I did notice in playtest that mutavault was not being used to its potential anyways since you almost always will tap all of your mana each turn, or leave it up for removal. Mutavualt wasn't a big loss.
Here's the list:
4x Godless Shrine
4x Hallowed Fountain
5x Plains
3x Temple of Deceit
4x Temple of Silence
4x Watery Grave
2x Desecration Demon
3x Imposing Sovereign
4x Lyev Skyknight
3x Obzedat, Ghost Council
4x Precinct Captain
4x Soldier of the Pantheon
4x Xathrid Necromancer
1x Doom Blade
2x Far // Away
1x Ultimate Price
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Detention Sphere
2x Whip of Erebos
24 Lands might be a little light and I may have to find room for one more land... but the curve isn't that high and my 1-3 cc cards are pretty high impact until I get to 5 mana.
I tested the previous version seen online at a local PTQ and the changes above are what I'm proposing as a result. I ended up 4 and 3 before dropping. Should have been 5 and 2 if I hadn't misplayed my final game, either way not enough to top 8. This deck is a lot of fun, but its inconsistency was obvious, hopefully taking out the mutavaults will help.