I dislike the idea of running EE in the main because it doesn't play well with the synergies of the deck, but I can see it still being correct, expecially if you are running Searches which give you that extra card selection. I also do like Spellbomb a lot, and can't really see myself ever cutting them completely. I had to cut something and that was my justification. I can easily see myself going back up to two. As for AV, I think the mana efficiency is crucial in modern that it's worth it to run AV even though the card has a non negligible fail rate. The fact it's a 3-for-1 that can't be discarded from your hand or blood mooned/ghost quartered out of the game is big too.
i'm running 2x pyromancer main alongside 2x anger of the gods and 1x damnation out of the board and its never proved a problem. commiting a pyromancer to the board actually often forces them to overextend and then damnation just wins. pyromancer + spotremoval the turn after you wipe the board is also a great folow up to lock the game down.
Running 2 Pyros alongside boardsweeps doesn't make your deck completely dysfunctional, but there is some tension. I think you are priced to board pyro out against decks like Affinity and Mardu Pyromancer since against Affinity Pyromancer isn't good enough at locking the opponent, and because Mardu can exploit an opener that contains both Pyro and Anger and because our Pyromancer tokens might not be enough to contest with lingering souls -tokens. In general Pyromancer becomes less important in the MUs where we are bringing in our sweepers. It's not a huge cost, but I'm pretty sure I might have trouble replacing the bad game one cards with reasonable SB cards if I have to board out additional Peezys.
I'm torn. I love nothing more than Young Pyro, but as Hunans, Spirits and vengevine decks are trending up I also love to have access to two Angers in my board, and these two things are at odds. The prevalence on KCI and the strength of Affinity with the addition Karn makes me long for a second Rejection as well, although that one is less crucial.
I gave Search for Azcanta a try but immediately reverted back to 3 AVs.
I'm currently playing a funky list with 3 AVs, 3 Tasigurs, 3 Serum Visions and a Faithless Looting. SB has 2 Anger 2 EE at the expense of cutting down to just one Spellbomb, which is a dangerous feeling. Grave decks seem to be on a downtick though, and decks like KCI and BR hollow one are examples of decks where Spellbomb looks like an important tool but often falls short.
I'm on 4 AV, 2 Serum 2 Opts. Thinking of going up to 4 opts and 0 serums, because snap opt.
Regarding needing Anger and then that clashing with young pyro; I have 4 young pyros in my main and no wipes in the side. I beat vengevine/humans with straight out elemental tanking until which time I start taking over with the incremental card advantage (push, snap push, block with snap, bolt, claim snap and bolt or kommand snap, snap bolt etc etc etc...)
I still don't have leyline of the void which really pains me. If I had that much cash to spend on cardboard I would definitely be upgrading my mires to tarns first. So my GY hate is so far away. Agree that spellbomb just doesn't feel as great, although it has done work for me.
forgoing Angers in favor of a full playset of Pyros is pretty interesting. I can easily see it being superior in MUs like BR Hollow One while giving nice advantage against the DS decks that are seeing more and more play atm. However I don't think the tokens do enough against decks like Spirits and Elves, and something like Dredge can probably compete even with an army tokens until it can dig to Conflagrate.
I'm torn. I love nothing more than Young Pyro, but as Hunans, Spirits and vengevine decks are trending up I also love to have access to two Angers in my board, and these two things are at odds. The prevalence on KCI and the strength of Affinity with the addition Karn makes me long for a second Rejection as well, although that one is less crucial.
I gave Search for Azcanta a try but immediately reverted back to 3 AVs.
I'm currently playing a funky list with 3 AVs, 3 Tasigurs, 3 Serum Visions and a Faithless Looting. SB has 2 Anger 2 EE at the expense of cutting down to just one Spellbomb, which is a dangerous feeling. Grave decks seem to be on a downtick though, and decks like KCI and BR hollow one are examples of decks where Spellbomb looks like an important tool but often falls short.
Zahid sounds like it could have potential, but I can't see it being totally lights out. Steel Leaf + Defense beats it in combat, Reid's -3 kills it, and Ghalta still overpowers it.
I honestly don't know how I like Unsummon just yet. It has performed decent in the games I drew it, but it does make you more prone to flooding out. My plan is in particular to combine Padeem and Unsummon in the MU against Stompy. If I only draw one and not the other it might get awkward.
Has anyone tried a red splash? The mana is basically free with sulfur falls, spirebluff, plus possibly spite of industry. Ntm prism in a pinch.
Could gain access to hour of devastation or spray, sweltering suns, abrade etc
Not that control is a major issue but also having banefire in the board with statuary seems like fun.
The splash would be anything but free. With such a low land count it's common we're going to keep hands with one land, map and prism, especially when on a mulligan or if the land is a Void. Running the risk of having lands ETB tapped is a very steep price as well.
Also, has anyone considered adding some copies of Efficent Construction as Sai 5+? A Sai that can't be hit with removal seems feasible, and it's a four drop so it can be cast off Baral's Expertise.
Aether Meltdown is better than these since it can be played proactively and doesn't allow the opponent to hir for 5. Even that plan has its problems though. I'm currently trying out all kinds of things, but there are no quick fixes.
Efficient Construction is a sideboard card at best. It's quite decent against UB and Grixis, but I doubt it would bring anything important to the table as we already have Sai. I'd rather dedicate every possible SB slot to beating Stompy.
EDIT: Daan Pruijt won the Dutch nationals piloting Reservoir Storm.
I haven't played this deck in forever, but I saw Gabriel Nassif streaming with it and then I started watching DiabloXSC. I was excited when I saw you two in a mirror Tiemuu. I've picked up most of the things needed to update from my old version and plan to jam it in paper tomorrow. What do you think of a version that focuses more on Karn, Tezzeret, Antiquities War in the main?
I actually streamed the match myself too, g1 was pretty cool from my perspective.
Marc tried out Karn in the MD but switched back. I've never been too impressed with Karn outside of the UW MU and don't see it being good in the MD. The huge construct tokens are impressive, but my intuition tells me the game usually won't come down to that and the game is already won or lost based on other factors. That's just me though.
Here's my most recent list, I'm also on 4x Sai atm. My sb is changing constantly, I think I'm off of 2nd Totem.
What matchups do you want the sideboarded Whir of Invention in? Also, I noticed you went up to 20 lands when most lists are still on 18.
Yeah, I was still losing more games and matches due to screwing than flooding so adding the 4th Void seemed like a good move to make. Whir is mostly for Grixis control MU. I've felt that it's less profitable to force spells to resolve on your own turn with Rebuke etc., since they have Abrades and Contempts to deal with resolved threats, which UW was lacking. For that reason I wanted to have more spells that I can use to start a fight with on the opponents' EOT.
I am going to take this deck to my county's nationals, they will be a week after m19 release. What would you change in the deck from new cards we getting?
If you want to see my most up to date list at any given time you should check my most recent VOD on my twitch channel.
Thanks for that! Completely makes sense and helps me avoid learning that over the course of a month of testing with it.
Is there a sideboard guide posted previously I can see? Much appreciated. Really hoping I can get gud enough with this to run it in GPLA instead mono red.
There is no sb guide because I'm always working on the strategies, especially now that there is a new set out. I've been busy playing prereleases the past couple of days, but I'm going to continue playing and streaming the deck starting from today. As for Sai, there is definitely room for him in this build, although new archetypes might emerge too.
Why no whir of invention? It allows us to search for the missing piece EOT or additional 0cmc pieces. It also can pressure the control players mana. In addition it can also search up potential sideboard hate.
Fun deck though, I’ve been trying some variations and I’m having a blast in standard for the first time in a while.
Hey, I'm glad to hear you've enjoyed playing this deck.
Here's some copypaste from +1 years ago:
I'm not playing Whir in the MD because in general it makes you slower to combo and weaker against aggro. Having more actual Reservoirs and Statuaries makes it easier to gain life incrementally while you dig for the Outcome, which is essential against aggro. With Whir you need to play out your artifacts before you have a Reservoir in play, which denies you the lifegain from playing those artifacts. Your Expertises also become much better this way, both when you are just buying time and resetting board, and when you are trying to combo with a Statuary in play. Having more Reservoirs in the MD also allows you to win without going off with an Outcome; sometimes you can gain enough life through playing multiple Reservoirs and possibly slowing the opponent down with Expertises.
-Unlike Reservoir, Whir cannot be cast for free with Expertise (to get you a Reservoir). This is something like 80% of the reason for why I don't play the card.
-Decreases my artifact density - quite relevant with Crane. There are often situations where I have plenty of resources and I'm trying to dig for Reservoir to win me the game with Baral's Expertise, and 1-mana Cranes are an excellent way to dig for the Reservoir. This wouldn't work with Whir.
-Forces me to build my deck in such a way that it has a critical mass of 0-mana artifacts to support Whir. I would have to cut cards that in my mind are crucial for this deck to operate.***
-Forces me to play (at least a good amount of) my 0-mana artifacts before I have Reservoir in play. The card simply doesn't work harmoniously with the synergies and card interactions of this deck.
***this was back when we had access to 12 "moxen"
Whir could be useful in the board, but the problem is that using Whir to resolve Statuary or Reservoir still doesn't get you anywhere. Card draw and standalone threats are the priority.
I love this deck. This is great to see, congratulations.
Sai, master thopterist has been great so far in testing. To fit everything, I'm trying:
-1 field of ruin, -1 sentinel totem, -2 baaral, +1 mox amber, +3 sai.
I moved the totem and field of ruin to the sideboard. I cut merchant's dockhand to fit everything but this could be a mistake.
Edit:
2 sai main might be enough, moved back to 19 lands and moved the third sai to the sideboard.
I'm starting off lean, cutting a Reverse Engineer and an Expertise from main. I'm looking forward to seeing how well Sai's ability can be used in an actual gameplay situation to prevent flooding.
Running 2 Pyros alongside boardsweeps doesn't make your deck completely dysfunctional, but there is some tension. I think you are priced to board pyro out against decks like Affinity and Mardu Pyromancer since against Affinity Pyromancer isn't good enough at locking the opponent, and because Mardu can exploit an opener that contains both Pyro and Anger and because our Pyromancer tokens might not be enough to contest with lingering souls -tokens. In general Pyromancer becomes less important in the MUs where we are bringing in our sweepers. It's not a huge cost, but I'm pretty sure I might have trouble replacing the bad game one cards with reasonable SB cards if I have to board out additional Peezys.
forgoing Angers in favor of a full playset of Pyros is pretty interesting. I can easily see it being superior in MUs like BR Hollow One while giving nice advantage against the DS decks that are seeing more and more play atm. However I don't think the tokens do enough against decks like Spirits and Elves, and something like Dredge can probably compete even with an army tokens until it can dig to Conflagrate.
I gave Search for Azcanta a try but immediately reverted back to 3 AVs.
I'm currently playing a funky list with 3 AVs, 3 Tasigurs, 3 Serum Visions and a Faithless Looting. SB has 2 Anger 2 EE at the expense of cutting down to just one Spellbomb, which is a dangerous feeling. Grave decks seem to be on a downtick though, and decks like KCI and BR hollow one are examples of decks where Spellbomb looks like an important tool but often falls short.
The splash would be anything but free. With such a low land count it's common we're going to keep hands with one land, map and prism, especially when on a mulligan or if the land is a Void. Running the risk of having lands ETB tapped is a very steep price as well.
EDIT: finally won my trophy!
Aether Meltdown is better than these since it can be played proactively and doesn't allow the opponent to hir for 5. Even that plan has its problems though. I'm currently trying out all kinds of things, but there are no quick fixes.
Efficient Construction is a sideboard card at best. It's quite decent against UB and Grixis, but I doubt it would bring anything important to the table as we already have Sai. I'd rather dedicate every possible SB slot to beating Stompy.
EDIT: Daan Pruijt won the Dutch nationals piloting Reservoir Storm.
I started to record my wins and losses again. I'm currently in the middle of process of trying to crack the nut that is Steel Leaf Stompy.
I actually streamed the match myself too, g1 was pretty cool from my perspective.
Marc tried out Karn in the MD but switched back. I've never been too impressed with Karn outside of the UW MU and don't see it being good in the MD. The huge construct tokens are impressive, but my intuition tells me the game usually won't come down to that and the game is already won or lost based on other factors. That's just me though.
Yeah, I was still losing more games and matches due to screwing than flooding so adding the 4th Void seemed like a good move to make. Whir is mostly for Grixis control MU. I've felt that it's less profitable to force spells to resolve on your own turn with Rebuke etc., since they have Abrades and Contempts to deal with resolved threats, which UW was lacking. For that reason I wanted to have more spells that I can use to start a fight with on the opponents' EOT.
Here's my most recent list, I'm also on 4x Sai atm. My sb is changing constantly, I think I'm off of 2nd Totem.
I managed to get only 6 matches in until I was too tired, more matches today.
If you want to see my most up to date list at any given time you should check my most recent VOD on my twitch channel.
There is no sb guide because I'm always working on the strategies, especially now that there is a new set out. I've been busy playing prereleases the past couple of days, but I'm going to continue playing and streaming the deck starting from today. As for Sai, there is definitely room for him in this build, although new archetypes might emerge too.
Hey, I'm glad to hear you've enjoyed playing this deck.
Here's some copypaste from +1 years ago:
I'm not playing Whir in the MD because in general it makes you slower to combo and weaker against aggro. Having more actual Reservoirs and Statuaries makes it easier to gain life incrementally while you dig for the Outcome, which is essential against aggro. With Whir you need to play out your artifacts before you have a Reservoir in play, which denies you the lifegain from playing those artifacts. Your Expertises also become much better this way, both when you are just buying time and resetting board, and when you are trying to combo with a Statuary in play. Having more Reservoirs in the MD also allows you to win without going off with an Outcome; sometimes you can gain enough life through playing multiple Reservoirs and possibly slowing the opponent down with Expertises.
-Unlike Reservoir, Whir cannot be cast for free with Expertise (to get you a Reservoir). This is something like 80% of the reason for why I don't play the card.
-Decreases my artifact density - quite relevant with Crane. There are often situations where I have plenty of resources and I'm trying to dig for Reservoir to win me the game with Baral's Expertise, and 1-mana Cranes are an excellent way to dig for the Reservoir. This wouldn't work with Whir.
-Forces me to build my deck in such a way that it has a critical mass of 0-mana artifacts to support Whir. I would have to cut cards that in my mind are crucial for this deck to operate.***
-Forces me to play (at least a good amount of) my 0-mana artifacts before I have Reservoir in play. The card simply doesn't work harmoniously with the synergies and card interactions of this deck.
***this was back when we had access to 12 "moxen"
Whir could be useful in the board, but the problem is that using Whir to resolve Statuary or Reservoir still doesn't get you anywhere. Card draw and standalone threats are the priority.
I've had similar plans in my mind apart from trying 18 lands. This is my first list though: https://puu.sh/AREyS/6288fdce0a.png
I'm starting off lean, cutting a Reverse Engineer and an Expertise from main. I'm looking forward to seeing how well Sai's ability can be used in an actual gameplay situation to prevent flooding.