Mycosynth Lattice and Semblance Anvil
I'm really just curious how these type of effects interact. As an example I have Semblance Anvil imprinted with an artifact creature with Mycosynth Lattice on the field. Then I go to cast Æther Adept, how much do i have to pay for Æther adept?
Lots of changes today, and I'm currently 2 cards short so I need some suggestions. I had a friend help me work on it a bit Yesterday. I switched a lot of artifact mana out in favor of green mana ramp, to work better with Prophet of Kruphix and Palinchron, I'm not really sure why I had so much in the first place. I also just got rid of things that just didn't seem to fit or were to slow. Kodama's Reach I was informed was too slow of a ramp card, and often I would opt not to get a land for my hand because I already had a ton in hand. Mystic Remora I found was better than Rystic Study, because it hits better early game and its cheaper. Muddle the Mixture works very well in this deck, there are so many transmute targets for it in this deck. As you can see I also went quite a bit more counterspell heavy.
Good luck in your league good sir! I wish there was one close to where I play, but alas. Such is not the case for me. How has Trading Post been for you? It seems pretty expensive and has to tap in order to sac the creature. And from my experience with my playgroup, that's not just not good enough. Do you know what your league will be like? I know some leagues don't allow infinite combos and stuff, which is why I mention it. I might suggest looking at some other more cutthroat Damia lists that are floating around so you can grab some of their tech and incorporate it into what you're already doing. Some cards that come to mind that I would suggest (that are about $10 per card, not too bad) are Oracle of Mul Daya and Deathrite Shaman. The are great ramp spells and are really quite good. Oracle makes sure you consistently are drawing gas and the Shaman acts as grave-hate that works alongside Nezumi Graverobber.
Regards
Well as a matter of fact, I have already ordered an Oracle of Mul Daya. I also have one open card slot open and I've been thinking either Oracle, Phyrexian Reclamation, Skyshroud Claim or maybe a Garruk Wildspeaker. Now it is important to note that for Oracle's role Walking Altas is far far superior in this deck, but that doesn't mean I can't run both. Deathrite Shaman is awesome as well and could take the slot, but he is a little more defensive, good Green Sun's zenith target though. The league is cool with my infinite combos, and in general don't seem to be on my level. I do look at other Damia decks all the time, however I try to ensure that I don't "plagiarize," and that my deck is unique. It is however similar to the Exsanguinate/Blue Sun's Zenith build where they just generally rush to go infinite with Palinchron, and i assure you 99% of the time when I go infinite with Palinchron everyone dies.
Now Trading Post may be mediocre in your deck and you could even be right about my deck, but I would say its synergy with the build is borderline all-star level. First, of course the under-rated forgotten about instant speed chump blocker, by forgotten about I mean my opponent has often forgotten about it. The creature sac is hardly a thing on this guy, but it is still very much a thing, but more importantly I keep necessary artifacts on the field. The best ability on here however is the "discard a card: gain four life." This allows me to get rid of stuff for "Damia re-racks," but I can also pitch a recursion target to the graveyard, like say Kozilek, Butcher of Truth into Nezumi, Grave Robber.
The only thing I really use the last ability on is Solemn Simulacrum. All in all it is very versatile and it couples very well with any combination of Voltaic Key, Kiora's Follower, or Seedborn Muse.
Like I said, I'm not saying your wrong, but that's why its in the deck at the moment. Maybe it could be something better.
Well I'm joining a local EDH league so ill get plenty of play testing in. I already played some of them and out of 14 games with 4 different people I only lost 2. I lost to a 5 colored sliver deck and he pulled some combo i didn't anticipate but could have stopped had I known what he was doing. The other time I just got plain mana screwed, both losses to the same guy. One of the guys however said he came in second last season and I just strait up ROFL stomped him, and he was pissed.
I would really like to make the deck more efficient of course, without adding a ton of extra money.
Right now I think I need suggestestions for things that are individually threats or have some sort of synergy, and relatively low cost.
I'm trying to balance the pro's and Khans of Counterspell vs. Voidslime.
Also I'm thinking about cutting these guys, but would also like suggestions for cuts as well.
I feel like since the deck really isn't about attacking, aside from the shroud aspect, the only creatures that actually benefit from Lightning Greaves are Kozilek, Butcher of Truth and Walking atlas. The other two cards I think are just very expensive and I don't find myself needing them ever. Also I think I may have one too many lands that tap for colorless, Alchemist's Refuge seems to be the weakest of the bunch.
The deck is somewhat budget as in there are no cards in here over 25$, but it is currently valued at $608 (10/1/14) not counting edition and foils. The deck should win turn(7) consistently, as early as turn(4), about 15% of the time less than turn(7). The deck will "kill" every player simultaneously and with out warning, regardless of how many opponents. Also the deck wins by lock out and you should rarely have to attack so if that doesn't sound fun then this deck isn't for you. If you would like to play test it, I have it posted at Tapped Out. All comments greatly appreciated.
The General
Why BUG? What does Damia have to do with Etb Recursion. The answer is pretty simple, she doesn't, it's the colors that are important here. Black gives us Sacrifice, Tutor
and Graveyard Recursion. Blue gives us Blink, Bounce, Control, and Flash. Green of course gives us Ramp, Recycle, Destruction, and Creature Tutors. Also they all have cards that are very central to the core strategy. Damia is simply the best BUG general for this, and her ability is quite helpful.
The Core Cards
Only 11 cards make up the actual purpose of this deck, which is to really abuse ETB effects. Most of the time you want to find some way to go infinite with Palinchron who really is the star of the deck. Otherwise you can just create a choking bind with the various ETB effects. For a soft lock your best bet is to get Mystic Snake or Venser, Shaper Savant into one of the loops detailed below, to basically counter anything that's a threat. The snake will deal with spells permanently, while Venser gets around "can't be countered" and deals with permanents. If you have infinite mana though Venser, Shaper Savant will bounce all permanents and counter all the spells, Acidic Slime will destroy all the lands, or Eternal Witness can infinitely play all the spells in your hand and graveyard.
Nezumi Graverobber + Any sac outlet + Any ETB Creature
Pretty self explanatory, you sac the Etb creature and bring him back with Nezumi Graverobber and do it as many times you can afford. If Palinchron is in here you have infinite mana.
Ashnod's Altar + Nim Deathmantle
Only costing 2 for each itteration I can use any ETB effect as many times as I can afford, infinite mana with Palinchron. I can also do it in response to any creature being targeted. Use it on Acidic Slime to destroy all lands. Really abuse it with Seedborn Muse. Mantle can combo to a lesser extent with anything that lets me sac a creature.
Eternal witness + Living Death + Any of the main four sac outlets
This one is quite a bit more complicated. You have Eternal Witness on the field and a sac outlet, with Living Death in your hand. If your sac outlet is Ashnod's Altar, you have infinite colorless, If Palinchron is on the Field you Have infinite of every color. You sac all your creatures, and play living death, retrieving also what ever you have in your graveyard, all ETB effects get itterated including Eternal Witness who grab's Living Death. You repeat the cycle from here. Just Make sure that your opponents ETB effects are going to be manageable, but keep in mind their ETB's only happen every other recursion. You should be able to win the game.
As mentioned before playing Mystic Snake multiple times is just good, and can create locks when put through the various loops. Shriekmaw has some weaknesses but is sure to find some targets in a multiplayer game and recurred indefinitely can be quite controlling. Prophet of Kruphix and Seedborn Muse fill almost the same role, pre-infinite they can help you really abuse your ETB's with that extra mana, open you up for responses or simply empty your hand for the next "Damia re-rack". Insidious Dreams works very well with Damia, at instant speed play it EOT, draw your win-con with Damia. Before Damia or if you're stalled out early it can be good to stack the deck with what you need, I usually put Scroll Rack on top so I can get all the cards I searched, but it can be slow for this application and draw a lot of attention. Another possibility is to discard a bunch of creatures with it and search for Living Death. Rune-Scarred Demon in and infinite loop of course lets you play the entire deck, otherwise just get that win-con you're missing. Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is an alright beat stick, he draws you 4 cards which is perfect if you just cast Insidious Dreams and flashed in EOT seems good also. None of that however is the reason he is in here. He's here for anti-mill, to potentially protect from graveyard exile, and to just simply recycle stuff. Forbid is awesome with Damia. Have cards in your hand you can't get rid of for the next "Damia re-rack," no problem. Or just pitch some creatures to revive.
Pro Tips
-If a board wipe should occur Nim Deathmantle can potentially save all your creature's at the expense of each.
-When you evoke Shriekmaw, you can sac him to something else like Ashnod's Altar making him cost nothing. Or you can blink him with Deadeye Navigator to Avoid the Sac.
I found that Woodfall Primus was just to slow, as i am trying to speed things up, and that his function is largely already filled by acidic slime. He's no Sylvan Primordial and he brings up the mana curve too much, especially with 3:symg:. Dryad Arbor of course creates mana ramp with Green Sun's Zenith, also i found that maybe i could benefit from more land. While he is more vulnerable to mass removal, I should be stable by then anyway and he can be recurred with creature recursion, flashed in on opponents turns, and Life from the Loam gets him back.
i was wondering, what is your traditional win move? i notice you dont run anything like exsanguinate or blue sun's zenith.
Do you combo out in anyway that i dont see, or do you go for the beat them to death strategy after establishing a lock out with your etb effects?
ive been toying with the idea of getting a copy of Oona, Queen of the Fae for my damia build - have you experimented with her at all? Shes seems ripe for abuse with all the mana this deck can generate, and provides flying blockers if you dont have a ton of mana.
I usually just win from concession. There definitely is a possibility to finish them off with creature damage, but its not really designed for attacking. In general is seems like there is enough synergy and recursion that you can get pretty ridiculous lock out scenarios and most people don't stick around afterwards. I have seen both exsanguinate and blue sun's zenith used in the deck, and i'd consider blue sun, but I have never had a scenario where I achieve infinite mana and don't just win anyway. This next week though I should be able to get some play testing done and should be able to provide a more specific answer to this question. Also ill probably add a section just for this.
Again quite a few cards. Woodfall Primus is the new Sylvan Primordial, I don't think he will attract as much hate, also the persist mechanic will interact well with my sac outlets. I've added quite a bit more tutoring via Insidious Dreams, which should end the game most of the time, and Green Sun's Zenith. Of course Life From the Loam and Strip Mine will interact nicely, but also Life From the Loam puts things into my graveyard which creates more targets for itself but also for the many graveyard recursion effects. I couldn't for the life of me remember why I still had artifact lands, they only interact with Trading Post and Glissa, the Traitor, which is not worth how much more easily they can be removed. I pre-ordered a Polluted delta From Khans of Tarkir as-well.
I am trying to sift through the new sets for cards to improve my deck, make it a bit faster without spending a ton more money. Also I am hoping that Khans of Tarkir brings us some new BUG Generals to play with, But i doubt there will be one i like better for the function of this deck. Damia is just all around solid support. I'm about to roll out some major changes, please offer suggestions.
THESE CHANGES ARE NOT OFFICIAL, merely speculation.
-Avatar of Woe (Conditions for second cost rarely met)
-Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (He's to slow and ive never really gotten use out of him)
+Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
It's important to note that Grimgrin functionally replaces both of these cards, infinite(free) sac outlet, and also repeatable kill effect. Not to mention a rather big creature all for the non-color-intesive low cost of 5cc
-Capsize
+Cyclonic Rift
This one hurts me quite a bit. Capsize is one of my favorite cards, so satisfyingly annoying. But it's a little slow unless i have excess mana lying around, works well with the muses, plus not only does it create infinite mana with doubling cube, it also ends the game with infinite mana. Rift on the other hand is a lot less conditional, and just ends the game. Capsize might see a comeback.
Your deck-list seems very similar to mine, save for the fact that you have a lot more money in yours than I do. I didn't realize that Jace, the mind sculptor wasn't banned anymore, also i guess sylvan Primordial is banned now. I decided against Oracle of Mul daya for the shear reason that based on the nature of this deck to attract hate already, I really don't want people to know whats coming. Kruphix, god of horizons, I feel like wouldn't fit to well, Utopia Sprawl, is just card disadvantage with land removal, but maybe the quickness makes up for it. Mindbreak trap seems to over-costed/conditional. I'd say your probably more experienced than I am but i'd like to hear how those cards are working for you, but more importantly check out my deck and let me know what you think i could do better with out adding a ***** ton of money, because i am definitely not about to get perfect duals and cracks or a jace.
I'm running damia too but I like a lot of the cards u cut. For instance I really like glen elndra.
I had played zombie nfestation with damia, but I find that forcing discard outlets is just weird. Like I don't really want to build around damia that much as u can bring in some crazier creatures. Probably want to look at the following
- oona + palinchron+mana reflection/vorinclex. Infinite mana and then mill them. Good with tooth and nail
-liliana of the veil is a good control card early and acts as a pseudo discard outlet
- corpse dance (reusable shallow grave?)
- whip of erebos gives lifelink and then recursion effect for etb guys.
-havengul lich
-if u are gonna use buried alive, why not have something like mimeoplasm
Here is my build. It's not perfect and I just play this format extremely casually.
I am trying to fit in consecrated sphinx, havengul lich,and one legendary eldrazi into my list, as well as replace things like rampant growth with natures lore etc.
Based on what on what you've said and your deck-list, which I am still digesting, and other research I've conducted These are the cards I'm currently looking at: Oracle of Mul daya which I've been trying to find or... Azusa, Lost but seeking still have to weigh the pros and cons. Havengul Lich Deathrite Shaman Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
and... Maybe Defense of the Heart
I agree with what you said about Forced discard, and i already have 3 discard outlets. I don't think i like graveyard recursion that results in my stuff being exiled.
Well, first of all, I don't really see the synergy between ETB and Damia? Of course your general is pretty expensive, so your deck should not rely on your commander to be out there, but still it feels a little strange. In addition, I think you would like to have a few discard outlets to ensure you maximize your profits when you do get her to stick... Cards like Geth, Lord of the Vault are cool, but I don't really see the point in this deck. You can't recur your ETB creatures with him, his ability costs you mana you could use to play your cards to empty your hand and hes rather costly...
My general advice: cut everything with high costs unless it's game ending and add moarrr ramp.
Do you have any recommendations on discard outlets. Also i think i might want to get something with more graveyard recursion, and something else with repeatable removal to replace avatar. You make a good point with Geth, Lord of the Vault, but he can end the game if I get infinite mana, he's also good with Seedborn Muse, but in general he's probably to slow and conditional.
I'm really just curious how these type of effects interact. As an example I have Semblance Anvil imprinted with an artifact creature with Mycosynth Lattice on the field. Then I go to cast Æther Adept, how much do i have to pay for Æther adept?
-Carrion Feeder
-Glissa, the Traitor
-Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
-Progenitor Mimic
-Coalition Relic
-Crystal Shard
-Gilded Lotus
-Voltaic Key
-Rhystic Study
-Kodama's Reach
-Black Sun's Zenith
-Rise from the Grave
-Scroll Rack
+Exploration
+Mystic Remora
+Counterspell
+Cryptic Command
+Muddle the Mixture
+Nature's Claim
+Nature's Lore
+Skyshroud Claim
+Glen Elendra Archmage
+Phantasmal Image
+Wooded Foothills
Well as a matter of fact, I have already ordered an Oracle of Mul Daya. I also have one open card slot open and I've been thinking either Oracle, Phyrexian Reclamation, Skyshroud Claim or maybe a Garruk Wildspeaker. Now it is important to note that for Oracle's role Walking Altas is far far superior in this deck, but that doesn't mean I can't run both. Deathrite Shaman is awesome as well and could take the slot, but he is a little more defensive, good Green Sun's zenith target though. The league is cool with my infinite combos, and in general don't seem to be on my level. I do look at other Damia decks all the time, however I try to ensure that I don't "plagiarize," and that my deck is unique. It is however similar to the Exsanguinate/Blue Sun's Zenith build where they just generally rush to go infinite with Palinchron, and i assure you 99% of the time when I go infinite with Palinchron everyone dies.
Now Trading Post may be mediocre in your deck and you could even be right about my deck, but I would say its synergy with the build is borderline all-star level. First, of course the under-rated forgotten about instant speed chump blocker, by forgotten about I mean my opponent has often forgotten about it. The creature sac is hardly a thing on this guy, but it is still very much a thing, but more importantly I keep necessary artifacts on the field. The best ability on here however is the "discard a card: gain four life." This allows me to get rid of stuff for "Damia re-racks," but I can also pitch a recursion target to the graveyard, like say Kozilek, Butcher of Truth into Nezumi, Grave Robber.
The only thing I really use the last ability on is Solemn Simulacrum. All in all it is very versatile and it couples very well with any combination of Voltaic Key, Kiora's Follower, or Seedborn Muse.
Like I said, I'm not saying your wrong, but that's why its in the deck at the moment. Maybe it could be something better.
1 Damia, Sage of Stone
Creatures (22)
1 Acidic Slime (ETB)
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Deadeye Navigator (ETB)
1 Eternal Witness (ETB)
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Kiora's Follower
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Mystic Snake (ETB)
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Palinchron (ETB)
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Phyrexian Metamorph (ETB)
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Rune-Scarred Demon (ETB)
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Shriekmaw (ETB)
1 Solemn Simulacrum (ETB)
1 Venser, Shaper Savant (ETB)
1 Viscera Seer (SAC)
1 Walking Atlas
Spells - (27)
1 Acquire
1 Beacon of Unrest
1 Beast Within
1 Buried Alive
1 Counterspell
1 Cryptic Command
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dark Ritual
1 Farseek
1 Forbid
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Insidious Dreams
1 Krosan Grip
1 Life From the Loam
1 Living Death
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Nature's Claim
1 Nature's Lore
1 Putrefy
1 Reanimate
1 Skyshroud Claim
1 Spin into Myth
1 Tooth and Nail
1 Voidslime
1 Liliana Vess
Enchantmants (3)
1 Exploration
1 Leyline of Anticipation
1 Mystic Remora
Artifacts (8)
1 Ashnod's Altar (SAC)
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Mana Vault
1 Mimic Vat
1 Nim Deathmantle
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Trading Post (SAC)
Lands (38)
1 Academy Ruins
1 Alchemist's Refuge
1 Breeding Pool
1 Command Tower
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Exotic Orchard
6 Forest
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Halimar Depths
1 Hinterland Harbor
1 Homeward Path
4 Island
1 Mosswort Bridge
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reflecting pool
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
1 Temple of the False God
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Watery Grave
1 Woodland cemetery
1 Wooded Foothills
-Mana Vault
I made this swap because Doubling Cube lost a lot of it's synergy when i took out Capsize, and also its just relatively slow.
-Woodfall Primus
-Forest
+Dryad Arbor
+Alchemist's Refuge
I found that Woodfall Primus was just to slow, as i am trying to speed things up, and that his function is largely already filled by acidic slime. He's no Sylvan Primordial and he brings up the mana curve too much, especially with 3:symg:. Dryad Arbor of course creates mana ramp with Green Sun's Zenith, also i found that maybe i could benefit from more land. While he is more vulnerable to mass removal, I should be stable by then anyway and he can be recurred with creature recursion, flashed in on opponents turns, and Life from the Loam gets him back.
I usually just win from concession. There definitely is a possibility to finish them off with creature damage, but its not really designed for attacking. In general is seems like there is enough synergy and recursion that you can get pretty ridiculous lock out scenarios and most people don't stick around afterwards. I have seen both exsanguinate and blue sun's zenith used in the deck, and i'd consider blue sun, but I have never had a scenario where I achieve infinite mana and don't just win anyway. This next week though I should be able to get some play testing done and should be able to provide a more specific answer to this question. Also ill probably add a section just for this.
-Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
-Capsize
-Lotus Bloom
-Vraska the Unseen
-Sylvan Primordial
-Geth, Lord of the Vault
LAND
-Tree of Tales
-Seat of the Synod
-Vault of Whispers
+Kiora's Follower
+Insidious Dreams
+Cyclonic Rift
+Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
+Green Sun's Zenith
+Life from the Loam
+Woodfall Primus (ETB)
LAND
+Polluted Delta
+Strip Mine
+Forest
Again quite a few cards. Woodfall Primus is the new Sylvan Primordial, I don't think he will attract as much hate, also the persist mechanic will interact well with my sac outlets. I've added quite a bit more tutoring via Insidious Dreams, which should end the game most of the time, and Green Sun's Zenith. Of course Life From the Loam and Strip Mine will interact nicely, but also Life From the Loam puts things into my graveyard which creates more targets for itself but also for the many graveyard recursion effects. I couldn't for the life of me remember why I still had artifact lands, they only interact with Trading Post and Glissa, the Traitor, which is not worth how much more easily they can be removed. I pre-ordered a Polluted delta From Khans of Tarkir as-well.
Cards that didn't quite make the cut but I want to add soon were, in order: Havengul Lich, Garruk Wildspeaker, and Briarpack Alpha.
THESE CHANGES ARE NOT OFFICIAL, merely speculation.
-Avatar of Woe (Conditions for second cost rarely met)
-Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord (He's to slow and ive never really gotten use out of him)
+Grimgrin, Corpse-Born
It's important to note that Grimgrin functionally replaces both of these cards, infinite(free) sac outlet, and also repeatable kill effect. Not to mention a rather big creature all for the non-color-intesive low cost of 5cc
-Capsize
+Cyclonic Rift
This one hurts me quite a bit. Capsize is one of my favorite cards, so satisfyingly annoying. But it's a little slow unless i have excess mana lying around, works well with the muses, plus not only does it create infinite mana with doubling cube, it also ends the game with infinite mana. Rift on the other hand is a lot less conditional, and just ends the game. Capsize might see a comeback.
-Geth, Lord of the Vault (Is not very focused for the deck, I'm finally giving in)
-Lotus Bloom (After turn 1 and 2 it's just rather slow)
-Vraska the Unseen (I've just never felt good about him)
-Sylvan Primordial (got banned apparently)
+Kiora's Follower (OMG utility, at worst it's extra mana)
+Insidious Dreams (This is either a game-ender or a huge early boost)
Changes up until this point are borderline final, but i still have three slots to fill, and here is what i'm currently looking at.
Ætherspouts
Briarpack Alpha(ETB)
Chasm Skulker
Hornet Queen(ETB)
Deathrite Shaman
Bribery (was previously in here but my play group hated it)
Life from the Loam
Woodfall Primus(ETB)
Necrogen Mists
Green Sun's Zenith
Defense of the Heart
Havengul Lich
Garruk Wildspeaker
Strip Mine (Doesn't actually take up a card slot)
Damia ETB Recursion
There are Actually quite a few Infinite mana combos already, many of them involving palinchron. Palinchron + Nim Deathmantle + Any Sac outlet. Palinchron + Deadeye Navigator. Capsize + Doubling Cube. Also sometimes Doubling Cube just taps for stupid mana, especially if i get phyrexian metamorph or voltaic key.
Based on what on what you've said and your deck-list, which I am still digesting, and other research I've conducted These are the cards I'm currently looking at:
Oracle of Mul daya which I've been trying to find or...
Azusa, Lost but seeking still have to weigh the pros and cons.
Havengul Lich
Deathrite Shaman
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger
and... Maybe Defense of the Heart
I agree with what you said about Forced discard, and i already have 3 discard outlets. I don't think i like graveyard recursion that results in my stuff being exiled.
Do you have any recommendations on discard outlets. Also i think i might want to get something with more graveyard recursion, and something else with repeatable removal to replace avatar. You make a good point with Geth, Lord of the Vault, but he can end the game if I get infinite mana, he's also good with Seedborn Muse, but in general he's probably to slow and conditional.