After playing in a few local tournies 20+ players each, and seeing more linear decks and eldrazi, feels like remand has gotten much worse for me at least locally so far, upping mana leaks and serum visions for now instead of any remands, also trying 1 Pia and Kiran main and going down to 1 clique as again Clique seems much worse against those decks as well (not eldrazi so much as burn and affinity, etc..).
Just put the wraths in to try them, while I did side them in round 1 and 3, never drew them, but will continue for a while to see how often they do work when I do get them.
Round 1 (1-0) Zoo
honestly I should have lost he miss played game 3 pretty badly and flat out punted, Game 1 was close but he got me game 2 I rolled with a great curve
Round 2 (2-0) Infect
Not much to say here I won both games easily, game 2 Zealous on double elf was sweet
Round 3 (2-1) BW Tokens
G1 he drew more spectrals than I did\
G2 I curved out great, he didn't
G3 I drew awful he got Intagible and Zealous and I didn't
Round 4 (3-1) Burn
Stole game 1
Game 2 Forge Tender, Double firewalker nough said
Crumble to Dust is great in that it ends Tron. But if we stumble in our land drops then they already played Karn and we lose anyways. Fulminator Mage and Shadow of Doubt and the bird are all tempo plays that slow them down. If we have a snapcaster mage or a geist in play then we can take advantage of that tempo. I played a game today against Blue Tron where I remanded Ugin 4 times but only dealt 6 damage in that time frame with Snapcaster. (Didn't end up mattering since they played platinum angel and I got them to -1 life but then never drew a path, doom, wear//tear or snapcaster.) So we would need to take advantage of that tempo gain.
Thoughts?
Well for the more R/W/U version I'm going to toy with molten rain since snappy can get it back, think it could help the Tron/Bloom match-Ups and have random aplications elsewhere, could be good for your 4 color version as well, at least might be worth exploring.
So I recently wen to my first Modern FNM with this deck, and I noticed my meta is full of URx decks, especially Twin. I recently got enough money to push for some serious upgrades and I want to know how many Auriok Champions I should run, and what my Inquisition/Thoughtseize split should look like. I'm nervous to run 4 Thoughtseize in a meta where Bolt+Snap is pretty common, and where there are certainly other decks that exist in my meta. Maybe I just had weird matchups and it's a coincidence that I saw three URx decks in a row. I saw players with Merfolk, Jund, Zoo, Titan Control, Affinity, and numerous others. Champion seems good in a meta like this, but I'm skeptical on running a playset, but I want to because black also exists in the meta.
In a meta like that I could see running 3 champion main instead of 2, and go down to 6 discard effects main, 4 inquisition, 2 seize, use the sideboard to beef up the discard more when needed via 3 duress. normally though I would go into an unknown meta with 2 champs at most and 7 discard standard.
I personally have been running 3 Serum Visions since I built my version of the deck and I love them in the deck, it is great for helping after boarding as you said to help hit powerful hate cards. It smoothes out some otherwise clunky hands which is key with this deck because mulling hurts this deck more than a lot of others. I run 24 lands, with the 3 visions and vary rarely have mana issues. I also run 2 cryptics, 2 remand, 2 leak and 2 snare for my counter suite, and has been good, though at times leak feels the worst of the bunch. I find 4 bolt, 3 helix, 2 electroylzye to be plenty of burn for the burn their face plan with snappies and thhe card drawing, selection I have. Also I feel visions allows me to only run 3 geists and avoid a lot of those awkward double geist hand by scrying one away. I do not currently splash black, but may consider trying it just to see.
Hey guys, I've made a list of matchups, and please rate each them as good, slightly good, slightly bad, or terrible. This will help our sideboard plans, and also be a good info for new people on this deck, and last it will help determine if splashing R or G actually helps against the close matchups, vs just being better against good matchups.
Burn (Atarka)
Merfolk
Zoo
Elves
Affinity
Infect
Bogles
Abzan CoCo
Soul Sisters
D&T
Abzan Liege
Hatebears
Abzan Ally/Aristocrats
Classic Abzan (Junk)
Jund
U/R Delver
Grixis Delver
Temur Delver
Grixis Control
UW Control
UWR Control
UWR Geist
Faeries
U/R Twin
Grixis Twin
Temur Twin
Scapeshift
Scapeshift w/ Through the Breach
Living End
Ad Nauseum
Amulet Bloom
Grishoalbrand
G/R Tron
Mono-U Tron
I don't know what I've left out. Obviously some of these are not big in every meta but some stores have weird stuff, like my store has two guys that play Abzan Ally/Aristocrats decks so I included it.
If you guys post here, I will summarize all the answers. Please answer based on the core WB deck, not splashes, with the full 4 Souls, 4 Spectral, 4 Bitterblossom, and 4+ anthems.
Well one's sideboard can determine how a match will go as well, are you just asking how game 1 is against each deck?
I only splash red for Crumble to Dust and Wear // Tear. Otherwise it is straight WB. Other than fetches, I only run two Sacred Foundrys to give me access to the little red I need.
Hello, i am new to the forum and following this thread for a long time now. I recently splashed red for sideboard options and would like to see your whole list. After work i will post my list.
As you can see, red is a very light splash. Basically for Crumble to Dust. Wear // Tear is just a bonus for splashing red.
Why are you not playing Spectral Procession?
The mana base is much easier without it. Spectral Procession, while good, is not worth it to me to bend-over backwards with the mana. There are many posts in this thread about the mana base as people try to figure out how to play spells that cost B, W, WW, 1BB and WWW. For just two colors, BW tokens mana base is stretched. Yes, Fetid Heath helps significantly, but not worth it in my opinion. Without Spectral Procession the need for Fetid Heaths is gone. This allows me to run Shambling Vent instead (which I find an amazing inclusion). Also, I like the fact that midnight haunting is an instant. It makes one fewer spirit, but being able to hold up mana for removal and then make two spirits end of turn is worth it. It also puts blue decks in a bind. Counter the end of turn spirits or wait for the possibility of something bigger. Anecdotally, I have snuck in many planeswalkers in after a counter went off on the spirits.
First of all you are only running 2 lands that either don't produce White or can go get a land that does, so like all other BW toaken decks your manabase can easily support it, also if from time to time you have to pay 4 for it it's not that bad, heck you are willing to pay 3 for only 2 tokens in midnight haunting. Frankly I just don't agree wit you on any level, and really think you are making the deck worse by not including procession, it is a powerful enough card to make the manabase work for it in this deck, because of cards like Virtue and Sorin makes Procession insane. While the instant part of haunting does help it, this deck taps out to do so many other things all the time, that I just don't think it is as relevant as often as you try to make it out to be. Anyway goodluck to you sir.
What are the actual payoff spells you get for playing with red? Bolt is kind of obvious, however imo not really necessary, Path does the job more then fine, and playing one or two-of Dismember or Murderous Cut is working as well, though neither of the options is great in the early game, but I want to cast hand disruption at that point anyway, and not beeing able to do so to cast Bolt will leave the opponent with more options early on, giving them a chance to resolve key spells.
The other card you mentioned was Mardu Charm. Sure, it has quite a lot of flexibiliy, but neither of the modes is worth anything close to 3 mana, and I dont reallt think any of those modes is really needed either. We have Path, Dismember and Cut for removal, Inquisition and Thoughtseize for hand disruption and obvi Lingering Souls and Spectral Procession for Tokens.
My main problem with splashing red is the cost for the mana base. I do already have 1 Vault, 2 Ghost Quarter (**** you Tron) and 1 Swamp, and not beeing able to cast Procession on turn 3 is hurting me already. So splashing Red would basically cost us the ability to play our second best card, which is not really worth it imo.
I would however like to know your experience playing the Deck, mby I am just overvalueing the solid manabase, and small upgrades for some of the cards (mainly Bolt) could be doable.
I only splash red for Crumble to Dust and Wear // Tear. Otherwise it is straight WB. Other than fetches, I only run two Sacred Foundrys to give me access to the little red I need.
Hello, i am new to the forum and following this thread for a long time now. I recently splashed red for sideboard options and would like to see your whole list. After work i will post my list.
I have been testing black white tokens with much success on cockatrice and am almost sold on getting the deck - but I can't decide on what list is the most effective. What are general opinions on spectral processions - is it a must have? I tried playing a few games with raise the alarm and secure the waste as replacements, and noticed that my mana was not only a lot more efficient, but also allowed me to take less damage (no more shock fetching out of fear that I could draw processions and not be able to cast it turn 3). Is the general opinion that a clunky mana base is worth playing a more powerful card? Would enjoy hearing from people who play the deck a lot!
In my opinion Procession is a must have, a lot of times it is the best card in the deck especially with Virtue or Sorin in play, I think too many people are being too cute by not playing you are weakening the deck, adjust the mana base anyway necessary to make Procession fit, it turns on heath all by itself and can help win many a race, can trade 2 for one a lot, I can't go on enough about how much happier I am for spectral to be in my hand in this deck, yes from time to time you have to cast it for 4, honestly that isn't the end of the world, also IOK can't hit it I can go on and on why this card is a must have 4 of staple for this deck.
RD1 VS Enduring Ideal deck 1-0 2-0
Not much to say his deck wasn't really equipped to beat me
RD2 Vs Grixis Faires 2-0 2-1
Game 1 I thought he was Twin as I only Saw Pestermite, and Lavamancer won game
Game 2 he drop T2 Bitterblossom, protects with spellstutter
Game 3 I roll him hyper agro Geist in Resto Draw with burn
Rd3 Vs Zoo (Doug Rice finished 6th) 1-2 2-1
Lost game one to triple Boros charm had him next turn
Game 2 I keep board clear early ride T3 gesit T4 resto to save it from Eidolon for win
Game 3 I had to mull kept a bit risky hand and got beat
Rd4 Vs Jund 2-0 3-1
Beat him easy Game 1 and 2, I got geists and he never got Lilly
Rd5 Vs Abzan Company (Logan Mize Finished 2nd) 1-2 3-2
Beat him in as long game 1
he values me out game 2 and I draw a lot of land
game 3 I mull to 6 get stuck on 2 land for too long, he gets chord witness going that I can't stop
Rd6 vs Grixis Twin 1-2 3-3
Game 1 he gets pretty lucky, long game he is able to kolaghans for exarch, and 2 to my geist token plus bolt it, and block he has no cards, he rips twin off the top, I have him dead with geist if he doesn't rip had 4 in deck with about 30 cards left, it happens
Game 2 I get him\
Game 3 he was able to combo out, after ripping my counter spells out with 3 discard spells, I was ahead on board
Dropped after that, again the deck is very competitive, I def could have won against zoo, and really should have beat twin but sometimes it gets lucky, the company deck feels like a tough matchup, really hurt I never drew my sidboarded Pyroclasms, but you have to play both the combo and the value of cards like company and chord very tough to do, especially with skites in te deck as well.
Just put the wraths in to try them, while I did side them in round 1 and 3, never drew them, but will continue for a while to see how often they do work when I do get them.
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
3x Raise the Alarm
2x Bitterblossom
1x Secure the wastes
4x Intangible Virtue
4x Path to Exile
1x Smother
1x Murderous Cut
4x Inquistion of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
2x Liliana of Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Windswept Heath
4x Godless Shrine
2x Isolated Chapel
1x Fetid Heath
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Swamp
7x Plains
2x Stony Silence
2x Kor Firewalker
1x Burrenton Forge tender
2x Timley Reinforcements
2x Rest in Peace
1x Duress
2x Wrath of God
2x Zealous Persecution
1x Disenchant
Round 1 (1-0) Zoo
honestly I should have lost he miss played game 3 pretty badly and flat out punted, Game 1 was close but he got me game 2 I rolled with a great curve
Round 2 (2-0) Infect
Not much to say here I won both games easily, game 2 Zealous on double elf was sweet
Round 3 (2-1) BW Tokens
G1 he drew more spectrals than I did\
G2 I curved out great, he didn't
G3 I drew awful he got Intagible and Zealous and I didn't
Round 4 (3-1) Burn
Stole game 1
Game 2 Forge Tender, Double firewalker nough said
Well for the more R/W/U version I'm going to toy with molten rain since snappy can get it back, think it could help the Tron/Bloom match-Ups and have random aplications elsewhere, could be good for your 4 color version as well, at least might be worth exploring.
In a meta like that I could see running 3 champion main instead of 2, and go down to 6 discard effects main, 4 inquisition, 2 seize, use the sideboard to beef up the discard more when needed via 3 duress. normally though I would go into an unknown meta with 2 champs at most and 7 discard standard.
I think it has been at least for the last several months most BW tokens decks that do well run 3-4 Bitterblossoms for the most part
Well one's sideboard can determine how a match will go as well, are you just asking how game 1 is against each deck?
No on auto includes because they come into play tapped without 2 basics, so while maybe I could see having one or 2 maybe, def needs testing.
First of all you are only running 2 lands that either don't produce White or can go get a land that does, so like all other BW toaken decks your manabase can easily support it, also if from time to time you have to pay 4 for it it's not that bad, heck you are willing to pay 3 for only 2 tokens in midnight haunting. Frankly I just don't agree wit you on any level, and really think you are making the deck worse by not including procession, it is a powerful enough card to make the manabase work for it in this deck, because of cards like Virtue and Sorin makes Procession insane. While the instant part of haunting does help it, this deck taps out to do so many other things all the time, that I just don't think it is as relevant as often as you try to make it out to be. Anyway goodluck to you sir.
Why are you not playing Spectral Procession?
In my opinion Procession is a must have, a lot of times it is the best card in the deck especially with Virtue or Sorin in play, I think too many people are being too cute by not playing you are weakening the deck, adjust the mana base anyway necessary to make Procession fit, it turns on heath all by itself and can help win many a race, can trade 2 for one a lot, I can't go on enough about how much happier I am for spectral to be in my hand in this deck, yes from time to time you have to cast it for 4, honestly that isn't the end of the world, also IOK can't hit it I can go on and on why this card is a must have 4 of staple for this deck.
RD1 VS Enduring Ideal deck 1-0 2-0
Not much to say his deck wasn't really equipped to beat me
RD2 Vs Grixis Faires 2-0 2-1
Game 1 I thought he was Twin as I only Saw Pestermite, and Lavamancer won game
Game 2 he drop T2 Bitterblossom, protects with spellstutter
Game 3 I roll him hyper agro Geist in Resto Draw with burn
Rd3 Vs Zoo (Doug Rice finished 6th) 1-2 2-1
Lost game one to triple Boros charm had him next turn
Game 2 I keep board clear early ride T3 gesit T4 resto to save it from Eidolon for win
Game 3 I had to mull kept a bit risky hand and got beat
Rd4 Vs Jund 2-0 3-1
Beat him easy Game 1 and 2, I got geists and he never got Lilly
Rd5 Vs Abzan Company (Logan Mize Finished 2nd) 1-2 3-2
Beat him in as long game 1
he values me out game 2 and I draw a lot of land
game 3 I mull to 6 get stuck on 2 land for too long, he gets chord witness going that I can't stop
Rd6 vs Grixis Twin 1-2 3-3
Game 1 he gets pretty lucky, long game he is able to kolaghans for exarch, and 2 to my geist token plus bolt it, and block he has no cards, he rips twin off the top, I have him dead with geist if he doesn't rip had 4 in deck with about 30 cards left, it happens
Game 2 I get him\
Game 3 he was able to combo out, after ripping my counter spells out with 3 discard spells, I was ahead on board
Dropped after that, again the deck is very competitive, I def could have won against zoo, and really should have beat twin but sometimes it gets lucky, the company deck feels like a tough matchup, really hurt I never drew my sidboarded Pyroclasms, but you have to play both the combo and the value of cards like company and chord very tough to do, especially with skites in te deck as well.
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Flooded Strand
2x Arid Mesa
4x Celestial Colonnade
2x Tectonic Edge
2x Island
1x Plains
1x Mountain
2x Steam Vents
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Eijano Castle
2x Sulfur Falls
3x Geist of St. Traft
3x Restoration Angel
2x Vendilion Clique
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Path to Exile
3x Lightning Helix
2x Electrolyze
2x Spell Snare
2x Remand
2x Cryptic Command
2x Mana Leak
3x Serum Vision
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Wear/Tear
1x Negate
2x Dispel
2x Pyroclasm
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Blood Moon
When I was splashing green for Abrupt Decay it was helping the merfolk and Twin matchup, but adding more shocks def hurts the Burn match-up.