Wizards is running out of ideas lol. 22 years 88 sets later...the tank is running empty. Its bound to happen. The only thin they have LEFT is to rehash old cards, slap new CMC on them, rearrange the rarity, etc. I mean...you can literally only do SO MUCH with a card game.
And still Khans was a good block, Innistrad fantastic while Avacyn Restored was pretty bad etc. Sometimes a set will suck. If it had been a trend going on for some time you could be correct, but WOTC has done ups and downs for 10 years + Once in a while the power creep reaches a plateau, and that's good for the game long term.
Having said that, I agree that this set seems a little uninspired.
First impression of the Pro Tour metagame makes me think that Kolaghan's Command will be a very good card moving forward. Artifact decks are out in force, making all 4 modes very relevant. 2 dmg+discard is pretty good against all of the land light burn decks too. This style of deck looks like it is able to take advantage of the card very well. Been testing straight BR, and Fleshbag Marauder is also a good way to squueze in some extra value. Anyway, good job on the deck, I'll test both this and other color variations.
Having said that, mono red is very likely one of the decks to beat in the wake of Vancouver. Do you plan to upgrade SB for this MU, or just accept being a dog, focusing on other decks?
Yeah, I was pretty surprised too, 28 lands rarely felt like too much. I could see 27, but I actually don't know if it would be better. And as the filterers are cheap, they are pretty easy to squeeze in in all stages of the game. Magmatic insight is a great turn 1 play, setting up for the turns to come. As for individual cards choices it will need more testing, but as we run through our deck so fast I think we can afford to play more miser's copies and 2-ofs than most standard decks. Between the digging and Kolaghan's Command I rarely miss playsets of the creatures. The exception is Hangarback Walker, which is a the t2 play I want most of the time.
About your suggestions: Thoughtseize is more of a sideboard card in this decks and format I think, but a couple of Murderous Cut would certainly be nice. I'll try cutting a Siege and an Angler for those. And a singleton Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury is a great idea, it shores up a bit against Elspeth and other Planeswalkers too, making the lack of Hero's Downfall a little easier.
Credit's where credit's due: This deck idea makes use of concepts discussed in the MBC and the Grixis Delve threads, but I do not want to digress the excellent analysis there.
This deck idea started with the breakthrough of Kolaghan's Command and the big delve creatures in Modern. When cards become staples in eternal formats, it means that the inherent power level is high. Still they see little play in Standard.
So what make these cards good? Cheap card filtering, easy ways to fill the Graveyard , value creatures to get back. So while Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions obviously are in a different league, we DO have access to cheap filtering and graveyard filling effects: Namely Tormenting Voice and Magmatic Insight. As value creatures go Fleshbag Marauder makes a pretty decent target for Kolaghan's Command, as do Hangarback Walker. While the walker obviously is at is most efficient as a two-drop, both cards kiiiinda (if you squint) look like Snapcaster in that they are decent cards in all stages of the game. And when we have thopters it's a good idea to play a couple of Pia and Kiran Nalaar. They are also good value both mid and late game.
For the moment I do not see the need to go blue, so let's make the big Delve dudes Gurmag Angler.
As we play a LOT of filtering and need lands to discard to insight we should play a lot of lands. Starting out with 28 and throwing in two Foundry of the Consuls to reinforce the thopter theme. Running with 9 fetches, 4 RB, 4 Evolving Wilds and 1 red fetch, to fuel Delve and thin some.
Obviously lots of tweaking to do, but I think the core concept is pretty decent, I have a winning record against several T1 decks, but of course the sample size is way too small. Feedback very welcome.
Tested something similar, the Hornet Nest really shores up against most of the creatures burn can't deal with. I do however play 4 Savage Knuckleblade instead of the Sphinxes/Ancient. He does a really good impersonation of Aetherling in addition to being great earlier. I also play miser's Chandra (great with Nest), Sarkhan (mostly as 4 to problem creatures) and Crater's Claws (situationally great with Knuckleblade, possible late game finisher).
Prophet is very powerful in the right shell. I've been having some success with modifying Miharas devotion shell from the PT into Simic. Prophet enhances the combo aspect of the deck by quite a lot. This is a rough sketch:
The main nut to crack for me is how to justify having 4 Squee maindeck. It has historically been a very powerful card, but with merely 4 infestations, I am unsure. this may very well change with Lilliana though. Seismic assault is way too heavy on red, imo that is a different deck. When Innistrad is released I will prolly playtest something like this:
Yeah, BGr is kinda grindy without the Unburial Rites and giant legends. Been playing some matches and going over the Innistrad spoiler. Really like the knight-package, guess the challenge is streamlining and avoid cramming all the synergistic cards in. Anyway, some thoughts and untested ideas:
Punishing Fire. Already playing green, so is it worthwhile? It's a decent spell and additional discard fodder for the cost of giving the opponent a life. Honestly dunno, I ll playtest it some.
Infernal Tutor. With a dump-your-hand playstyle it's a demonic tutor. Both this one and the fire are pretty mana intensive though, generally uses up a turn. Probably too low-impact without the powerlevel of Legacy/Vintage
Vengeful Pharaoh as a singleton to help shoring up some matchups. The top of your library-clause is mostly irrelevant with dredge+discard outlets
And a couple of Innistrad cards:
Gnaw to the Bone. Strictly sideboard, but should be able to gain 10+ life without costing a card.
Rally the Peasants. Prolly far-fetched, but swarm strategy with a 2 power bonus could kill out of nowhere. Singleton at most.
Mulch. No immediate impact, but carddrawing+graveyard dump could be ok. For 2 mana it does not do enough methinks.
Madness cards:
Gibbering Descent for the kitchen table :tongue:. Big Game Hunter is sporadically played in legacy, so the powerlevel is clearly there. Really do not know. Dark Withering does much of the same work.
The deck concept has been seen before as Dawn of the Dead in vintage and has some things in common with Baghdad Bob as well. The core is strong, but Bazaar of Baghdad is hard to replace, to say the least.
Any ideas for good discard outlets? Sorry bout posting only loose ideas and thoughts, let's streamline it together
Hello there. First of all: nice primer, if that's your first you're a natural.
Really like the idea, been tinkering with something similar, but since I'm exclusively a Modo player I have not gotten the chance to play with the Innistrad goodies yet (of which Lilliana is an autoinclude)
I have been playing with a slight red splash and thought I'd throw in some ideas.
Aggro is an awful matchup, red lets you SB Firespout, slowrolling the zombie army, swarming the board post spout. I agree on deathmark being a necessary sideboardcard.
Red lets you actually play Squee in a pinch, he's definitely no Tarmogoyf, but he chumps decently.
Since you pretty much dump your hand every game hellbent is a possible fit. Keldon Megaliths pick off a lot of utility creatures, hierarch and Bob among others. I have also been playing Gathan raiders as an additional thing to do with Squees and extra lands. He's also a beefy body, 3 mana 5/5 are ok against a lot of decks.
I play 4 bloodghasts, they're very good against control and decent for racing. They get sideboarded out a lot though, reprint cabal therapy please!
I have also tried a singleton Demon of Death's Gate. It has broken a few stalemates, eating Bloodghasts and dime a dozen Zombies. One of the advantages of playing a deck where your hand is mostly for throwing away is that playing weird miser singletons does not hurt too bad, they're already half a zombie anyway
Ancient grudge is a good card for the sideboard, leylines could also be ok, free or random cards for infestations.
Playing a single Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace too, surprisingly decent in some situations, notably against control and as an emergeny discard outlet.
Anyway, just some stuff off the top of my head, regards.
And still Khans was a good block, Innistrad fantastic while Avacyn Restored was pretty bad etc. Sometimes a set will suck. If it had been a trend going on for some time you could be correct, but WOTC has done ups and downs for 10 years + Once in a while the power creep reaches a plateau, and that's good for the game long term.
Having said that, I agree that this set seems a little uninspired.
Having said that, mono red is very likely one of the decks to beat in the wake of Vancouver. Do you plan to upgrade SB for this MU, or just accept being a dog, focusing on other decks?
About your suggestions: Thoughtseize is more of a sideboard card in this decks and format I think, but a couple of Murderous Cut would certainly be nice. I'll try cutting a Siege and an Angler for those. And a singleton Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury is a great idea, it shores up a bit against Elspeth and other Planeswalkers too, making the lack of Hero's Downfall a little easier.
Thanks for the input!
This deck idea started with the breakthrough of Kolaghan's Command and the big delve creatures in Modern. When cards become staples in eternal formats, it means that the inherent power level is high. Still they see little play in Standard.
So what make these cards good? Cheap card filtering, easy ways to fill the Graveyard , value creatures to get back. So while Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions obviously are in a different league, we DO have access to cheap filtering and graveyard filling effects: Namely Tormenting Voice and Magmatic Insight. As value creatures go Fleshbag Marauder makes a pretty decent target for Kolaghan's Command, as do Hangarback Walker. While the walker obviously is at is most efficient as a two-drop, both cards kiiiinda (if you squint) look like Snapcaster in that they are decent cards in all stages of the game. And when we have thopters it's a good idea to play a couple of Pia and Kiran Nalaar. They are also good value both mid and late game.
For the moment I do not see the need to go blue, so let's make the big Delve dudes Gurmag Angler.
So the core of the deck, first draft, becomes:
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Magmatic Insight
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Kolaghan's Command
As we play a LOT of filtering and need lands to discard to insight we should play a lot of lands. Starting out with 28 and throwing in two Foundry of the Consuls to reinforce the thopter theme. Running with 9 fetches, 4 RB, 4 Evolving Wilds and 1 red fetch, to fuel Delve and thin some.
The rest of the deck is Removal and Card advantage: Outpost Siege, Languish and a couple of Roast.
Oh, and a copy of Pyromancer's Goggles. This one have ranged from useless to totally insane in early testing. In grindy matchups Magmatic Insight off this card becomes Tidings turn 5. Kolaghan's Command does a pretty decent Cruel Ultimatum impression and Roast is a onesided Wrath. Against aggro we just discard it to a Tormenting Voice.
So the decklist becomes:
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Spells:
4 Magmatic Insight
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Kolaghan's Command
2 Languish
3 Outpost Siege
2 Roast
1 Pyromancer's Goggles
4 Temple of Malice
4 Evolving Wilds
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Foundry of the Consuls
8 Mountain
4 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Obviously lots of tweaking to do, but I think the core concept is pretty decent, I have a winning record against several T1 decks, but of course the sample size is way too small. Feedback very welcome.
Prophet into fatties into Zegana can generate some pretty disgusting sequences.
4 verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Keldon Megaliths
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
1 Forest
4 Bloodghast
4 Squee, goblin Nabob
3 Gathan Raiders
1 vengeful Pharaoh
4 Sedraxis Specter
1 Demon of Death's Gate
Spells
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
4 Zombie Infestation
4 Smallpox
4 Life from the Loam
Gotta explore the white though, definitely sounds interesting, Knight of the Reliquary is pretty ok with loam I've heard
Punishing Fire. Already playing green, so is it worthwhile? It's a decent spell and additional discard fodder for the cost of giving the opponent a life. Honestly dunno, I ll playtest it some.
Infernal Tutor. With a dump-your-hand playstyle it's a demonic tutor. Both this one and the fire are pretty mana intensive though, generally uses up a turn. Probably too low-impact without the powerlevel of Legacy/Vintage
Vengeful Pharaoh as a singleton to help shoring up some matchups. The top of your library-clause is mostly irrelevant with dredge+discard outlets
And a couple of Innistrad cards:
Gnaw to the Bone. Strictly sideboard, but should be able to gain 10+ life without costing a card.
Rally the Peasants. Prolly far-fetched, but swarm strategy with a 2 power bonus could kill out of nowhere. Singleton at most.
Mulch. No immediate impact, but carddrawing+graveyard dump could be ok. For 2 mana it does not do enough methinks.
Madness cards:
Gibbering Descent for the kitchen table :tongue:. Big Game Hunter is sporadically played in legacy, so the powerlevel is clearly there. Really do not know. Dark Withering does much of the same work.
The deck concept has been seen before as Dawn of the Dead in vintage and has some things in common with Baghdad Bob as well. The core is strong, but Bazaar of Baghdad is hard to replace, to say the least.
Any ideas for good discard outlets? Sorry bout posting only loose ideas and thoughts, let's streamline it together
Really like the idea, been tinkering with something similar, but since I'm exclusively a Modo player I have not gotten the chance to play with the Innistrad goodies yet (of which Lilliana is an autoinclude)
I have been playing with a slight red splash and thought I'd throw in some ideas.
Aggro is an awful matchup, red lets you SB Firespout, slowrolling the zombie army, swarming the board post spout. I agree on deathmark being a necessary sideboardcard.
Red lets you actually play Squee in a pinch, he's definitely no Tarmogoyf, but he chumps decently.
Since you pretty much dump your hand every game hellbent is a possible fit. Keldon Megaliths pick off a lot of utility creatures, hierarch and Bob among others. I have also been playing Gathan raiders as an additional thing to do with Squees and extra lands. He's also a beefy body, 3 mana 5/5 are ok against a lot of decks.
I play 4 bloodghasts, they're very good against control and decent for racing. They get sideboarded out a lot though, reprint cabal therapy please!
I have also tried a singleton Demon of Death's Gate. It has broken a few stalemates, eating Bloodghasts and dime a dozen Zombies. One of the advantages of playing a deck where your hand is mostly for throwing away is that playing weird miser singletons does not hurt too bad, they're already half a zombie anyway
Ancient grudge is a good card for the sideboard, leylines could also be ok, free or random cards for infestations.
Playing a single Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace too, surprisingly decent in some situations, notably against control and as an emergeny discard outlet.
Anyway, just some stuff off the top of my head, regards.