This is a decktype that my friend (elicik) and I have been working on for awhile. Basically, it revolves around abusing cards like Plague Belcher and Exemplar of Strength, which are really big and efficient creatures for their mana cost. Their main downside is that they require you to place -1/-1 counters on your own stuff in order to cast them; this deck seeks to mitigate that cost and even in some circumstances profit from it.
So, without further ado, here's an outline of the deck.
Cards that place -1/-1 counters
These are the main cards that the deck revolves around. Basically, as mentioned earlier, these three are extremely efficient in terms of stats, with the downside of placing down -1/-1 counters on your creatures. Plague Belcher is unique, however, in that it doesn't have a baked-in means of removing counters. To combat this, you're probably going to want to almost-always use him on either a token or Blisterpod, unless you have a Hapatra's Mark in hand.
Side note that a lot of people forget; Nest of Scarabs gives you an insect for each counter that you place, rather than Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons which only gives you one snek even if your card places multiple counters.
Cards that benefit from having big creatures
Because all three of the deck's main creatures are above four toughness, it's very easy to keep Rhonas the Indomitable live. Mouth // Feed is used for a similar reason; at the point in the game where you'd be casting it for its aftermath, you should be able to get quite a few draws off of it.
Other potential cards for the deck
These are basically just miscellaneous cards which somewhat suit the win condition of the deck, but I chose not to include in the sample list because I don't think they're that great considering our other options.
Of these, the most relevant cards for discussion are probably Prowling Serpopard and Channeler Initiate. I did include Prowling Serpopard in the sideboard of my sample list, but that's mostly because I didn't have much else that I thought was worth siding. It's definitely a good card, but very meta based.
Channeler Initiate is good, but the deck doesn't really need a mana dork (at least not with a curve like in the sample), and considering its lack of space a 2 mana 3/4 is, surprisingly, just not good enough considering that Exemplar of Strength exists.
Other than those two, I think Crocodile of the Crossing would be the next logical choice to run, followed by perhaps Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. They're good cards, one providing more aggression with the other providing tokens to murder with our counter placers.
Overall, I really like this deck, and highly recommend giving it a go. It curves out extremely well, a 4/4 and 5/4 + Menace on turn 3 being a pretty strong board state that early on. Also, it utilizes the Black and Green gods very well, which considering the level of pressure they apply by simply existing is something worth noting.
The only real problem with the deck that I've found so far is it's not terribly interactive with the opponent, though as what is essentially an early-format aggro deck, this is to be expected. I imagine if this picks up as a decltype, we'll see a much more utility based build, less focused on the simple advantage from counters.
I definitely see this as one of the more powerful decks of the format. Elicit plans on posting his list on my thread at some point, so you can see his variance in card choice etc.
Hope you enjoyed the read! Nice primer! However, per Standard Deck Creation Rules, "If you want to post a new thread in this forum, please check and make sure there isn't already a thread on the same topic. " Merging threads. - hoser2
So, before the ban of Smuggler's Copter , emrakul, the promised end and Reflector mage we had a healthy 5-8 deck standard, after ban we had a 2 Deck standard. With this ban we may have a new 1 Deck standard, It would make meta gaming easier for new players.. I predict more bans coming.
1 deck standard? Which 1 deck do you think is going to dominate?
Mardu is going to open a can of whoop a$$ on the format. The real point I was trying to make though is banning cards leads to less Diversity. I do think RG Aggro has a chance of competing in the format, and, GW Tokens has picked up a lot of cards wouldn't be surprise if that deck has a resurgence. A lot of people believe BG is going to be the next big deck but I don't see it happening. Yes BG gains by losing a bad matchup but It doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of cards in amonket that are really good against them.
Mardu isn't going to be that oppressive. Mardu Vehicles wasn't successful because it beats every other deck in the format, it was successful because it beats the deck which beats every other deck in the format. It's not that Mardu was some slaughterhouse that nobody could beat, it's just that you're so likely to play against Saheeli that Mardu had a pretty huge advantage in terms of pure winrate.
Views along the lines of "This is bad because they didn't do it 3 days ago" are jaded and pointless. If you disagree with the ban in general, fine, but if that's your reasoning then you don't have a real opinion, you just like complaining about wizards.
Now, onto opinions that can actually be discussed. Banning Cat is IMO the best thing they could have done for the format. No, this isn't going to result in the format being only Mardu Vehicles and maybe BG. The only reason that other decks didn't exist is because Saheeli is so oppressive when pitted against anything that isn't Mardu Vehicles. Other decks were able to beat Mardu fine, it's literally just that Mardu was the only one who could consistently beat Saheeli.
Now that Saheeli is gone, things like Temur Marvel, Temur Tower, Energy, actual control decks, and the plethora of possiblity from Amonkhet will top. Is Mardu still the best deck in the format? Probably. But you can side against it properly, and it doesn't prevent tier 2 decks from existing.
"Ixalan is just a rename of Atlazan" are you ******* kidding me. Just admit you were wrong. I don't know how you could have gotten that Atlazan was a Meso-American world when they only showed a merfolk when most people thought it was referencing Atlantis. Just seems like you're in denial. If the name of the actual set wasn't Atlazan then clearly Atlazan is a fake set, don't know why this is so hard to follow.
The new Bolas walker isn't confirmed for Amonkhet. It's quite likely that he's in Hour of Devastation, since some leaked pack art had bolas on the front.
Also, have you tested running 1 Cultivator's Caravan and 1 Aethersphere Harvester instead of two harvester, in order to make the double white on your 4 Gideons less painful to achieve? It may not even be an issue for you, but looking at the list that's something I'd be concerned about.
March 13th is the next available day that Wizards is able to make any ban decisions.
Is there any possibility that Standard could receive MORE bans?
Personally, while I don't think it's incredibly likely, I think a Felidar Guardian ban is possible. The deck isn't incredibly oppressive in the sense that it's winning tournaments, however, it's oppressive in that its restricting Tier 2 decks from successfully emerging, unless they have built in Anti-Saheeli. Also, they didn't anticipate the loop, so I feel like them banning it because it's a toxic strategy they didn't foresee isn't impossible.
Thoughts? Think we'll see anything? Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
I've played against 2 of them; won vs. Samuel Vuillot in round 12 and I lost vs. Alexandre Habert in round 13 but have to say on a mull to 5 and 6 in both games (first game on the draw so that was pretty horrible). Matchup on paper seems rough, they have all the removal in the world + Balista + Fumigate with a PW package after sb. I also made some mistakes with boarding because in the 'mirror' they tend to board out all their good artifact targets so Release the Gremlins isn't that good, but if they next level you.. it's a big loss because then you really want it! The games vs. Samuel felt very close, game 3 he was bricking on black mana (the deck really needs it, much more than regular Mardu builds), he lost the game with 2 unlicensed, fatal push and I think a Oath of Liliana in hand with zero black sources on the field.
Overall I think the Balista list was fine for the tournament as a meta call, now the factor of the transformational sideboard is known people can target it accordingly.
Do you think the Ballista variant and the walker heavy transformation will remain, or die out now that they're both known?
Yeah, I really like the decktype as a whole so I decided to create an actual primer for it, rather than just a decklist thread.
1 Bontu the Glorified
3 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Bone Picker
4 Blisterpod
4 Defiant Greatmaw
4 Exemplar of Strength
4 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
4 Plague Belcher
2 Nest of Scarabs
Instants - 6
4 Fatal Push
2 Hapatra's Mark
Land - 22
4 Blooming Marsh
9 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
7 Swamp
Sorceries - 2
2 Mouth // Feed
1 Mouth // Feed
1 Bontu the Glorified
2 Verdurous Gearhulk
2 Blossoming Defense
2 Prowling Serpopard
2 Grasp of Darkness
2 Never // Return
3 Manglehorn
This is a decktype that my friend (elicik) and I have been working on for awhile. Basically, it revolves around abusing cards like Plague Belcher and Exemplar of Strength, which are really big and efficient creatures for their mana cost. Their main downside is that they require you to place -1/-1 counters on your own stuff in order to cast them; this deck seeks to mitigate that cost and even in some circumstances profit from it.
So, without further ado, here's an outline of the deck.
Cards that place -1/-1 counters
These are the main cards that the deck revolves around. Basically, as mentioned earlier, these three are extremely efficient in terms of stats, with the downside of placing down -1/-1 counters on your creatures. Plague Belcher is unique, however, in that it doesn't have a baked-in means of removing counters. To combat this, you're probably going to want to almost-always use him on either a token or Blisterpod, unless you have a Hapatra's Mark in hand.
Cards that abuse -1/-1 counters
Basically, these types of cards fall into 3 categories. There are cards that are good fodder for the counters, like Blisterpod(elicik's discovery, a card that I had completely forgotten about) and the various tokens. There are cards that actually benefit from you placing counters on things, like Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons, Nest of Scarabs and Hapatra's Mark. Lastly, there are cards like Bontu the Glorified and Bone Picker which benefit from things like Blisterpod and the tokens from Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons and Nest of Scarabs being killed for -1/-1 fodder.
Side note that a lot of people forget; Nest of Scarabs gives you an insect for each counter that you place, rather than Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons which only gives you one snek even if your card places multiple counters.
Cards that benefit from having big creatures
Because all three of the deck's main creatures are above four toughness, it's very easy to keep Rhonas the Indomitable live. Mouth // Feed is used for a similar reason; at the point in the game where you'd be casting it for its aftermath, you should be able to get quite a few draws off of it.
Other potential cards for the deck
These are basically just miscellaneous cards which somewhat suit the win condition of the deck, but I chose not to include in the sample list because I don't think they're that great considering our other options.
Of these, the most relevant cards for discussion are probably Prowling Serpopard and Channeler Initiate. I did include Prowling Serpopard in the sideboard of my sample list, but that's mostly because I didn't have much else that I thought was worth siding. It's definitely a good card, but very meta based.
Channeler Initiate is good, but the deck doesn't really need a mana dork (at least not with a curve like in the sample), and considering its lack of space a 2 mana 3/4 is, surprisingly, just not good enough considering that Exemplar of Strength exists.
Other than those two, I think Crocodile of the Crossing would be the next logical choice to run, followed by perhaps Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. They're good cards, one providing more aggression with the other providing tokens to murder with our counter placers.
Overall, I really like this deck, and highly recommend giving it a go. It curves out extremely well, a 4/4 and 5/4 + Menace on turn 3 being a pretty strong board state that early on. Also, it utilizes the Black and Green gods very well, which considering the level of pressure they apply by simply existing is something worth noting.
The only real problem with the deck that I've found so far is it's not terribly interactive with the opponent, though as what is essentially an early-format aggro deck, this is to be expected. I imagine if this picks up as a decltype, we'll see a much more utility based build, less focused on the simple advantage from counters.
I definitely see this as one of the more powerful decks of the format. Elicit plans on posting his list on my thread at some point, so you can see his variance in card choice etc.
Hope you enjoyed the read!
Nice primer! However, per Standard Deck Creation Rules, "If you want to post a new thread in this forum, please check and make sure there isn't already a thread on the same topic. " Merging threads. - hoser2
Mardu isn't going to be that oppressive. Mardu Vehicles wasn't successful because it beats every other deck in the format, it was successful because it beats the deck which beats every other deck in the format. It's not that Mardu was some slaughterhouse that nobody could beat, it's just that you're so likely to play against Saheeli that Mardu had a pretty huge advantage in terms of pure winrate.
Now, onto opinions that can actually be discussed. Banning Cat is IMO the best thing they could have done for the format. No, this isn't going to result in the format being only Mardu Vehicles and maybe BG. The only reason that other decks didn't exist is because Saheeli is so oppressive when pitted against anything that isn't Mardu Vehicles. Other decks were able to beat Mardu fine, it's literally just that Mardu was the only one who could consistently beat Saheeli.
Now that Saheeli is gone, things like Temur Marvel, Temur Tower, Energy, actual control decks, and the plethora of possiblity from Amonkhet will top. Is Mardu still the best deck in the format? Probably. But you can side against it properly, and it doesn't prevent tier 2 decks from existing.
Hey friendo wanna chill
Gideon of the Trials is interesting for things like Dynavolt Tower, but honestly I think By Force is just a better, smarter new way to deal with stuff like that. Plus we still retain Anguished Unmaking at instant speed.
I do think that 3 Archangel Avacyn and 25 Land is the way to go moving forward, however. It's just been proven to be effective.
Edit - My current list that I've been using at FNM:
4 Heart of Kiran
Planewalkers - 4
4 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Creatures - 20
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Archangel Avacyn
3 Walking Ballista
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Toolcraft Exemplar
4 Scrapheap Scrounger
Instants - 7
3 Fatal Push
4 Unlicensed Disintegration
3 Aether Hub
4 Spire of Industry
4 Inspiring Vantage
4 Concealed Courtyar
4 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
1 Smoldering Marsh
1 Needle Spires
2 Shambling Vent
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Painful Truths
2 Fumigate
2 Release the Gremlins (To be replaced with By Force come Amonkhet)
2 Stasis Snare
2 Shock
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Fatal Push
Remember that Thing in The Ice is still a Horror.
I've not tested fleetwheel yet, but I like your logic.
Eldrazi and Metalwork are fine decks for FNM, but in the context of high level events they're nearly unplayable.
Also, have you tested running 1 Cultivator's Caravan and 1 Aethersphere Harvester instead of two harvester, in order to make the double white on your 4 Gideons less painful to achieve? It may not even be an issue for you, but looking at the list that's something I'd be concerned about.
Is there any possibility that Standard could receive MORE bans?
Personally, while I don't think it's incredibly likely, I think a Felidar Guardian ban is possible. The deck isn't incredibly oppressive in the sense that it's winning tournaments, however, it's oppressive in that its restricting Tier 2 decks from successfully emerging, unless they have built in Anti-Saheeli. Also, they didn't anticipate the loop, so I feel like them banning it because it's a toxic strategy they didn't foresee isn't impossible.
Thoughts? Think we'll see anything?
Due to the adoption of a State of Standard thread that includes this subject matter, this thread is locked. -hoser2
Do you think the Ballista variant and the walker heavy transformation will remain, or die out now that they're both known?