Those slots were never available to you in the first place! And even if you manage to win a PTQ (Your only real chance now) even if you do well at the PT you now have to win another PTQ to get back. This doesn't help anyone except the grinders.
You now have LESS OF A CHANCE to qualify. Do you understand that? If there is LESS CHANCE it doesn't make it EASIER.
If I type in all caps do you understand it better? Please tell me you do.
And I argue that old system was more bad. It encouraged people to not play, which is ultimately worse for the game overall. If I had a bad string of tournaments (which happens), then I could lose YEARS of work, which would make me more likely to just give up the "dream" of having the "gravy train". And most of the playing community is probably more in my boat, where they use FNM as their "playtest" group.
I have a family and job, I don't have much free time other then to play on MTGO and at FNMs. At least this system gives me the hope that if I play well at every FNM and maybe make an appearance at some "higher level" tournaments then I will be able to maybe get an invite at least to the FNM tournament. Who knows, just maybe I am lucky enough to get an invite to the Pro Tour because these "grinders" that you're so ******* worried about don't actually have an effect on the system. Is there the chance that it could happen, yes. Did the old system encourage you to not play "real" games, yes. Which do you think is worse overall for the game?
Like I said, I don't think the system is perfect or without it's flaws, but it is the future of MTG, deal with it. If you don't like it, then just be an adult about it and walk away instead of bashing the system. Sorry you losing your gravy train, and new people will rise to take your place. I believe that I am an above average player (usually it was just commitment that kept me from going to the "next" level, I didn't want to travel nor drop hundreds of dollars on decks), but I don't expect the game to reward be beyond what I put into it, be that money and/or time.
And if Alice turns out to be a real problem, you really don't think that WotC won't do something about it?
Lastly, I would rather that WotC focus their resources on the actual design (health) of the game and less on organized play. If you want a system that gives you a chance to make a living at playing MTG, then make it happen instead of complaining about not having one.
right, which is why the pro's suggested, rating decay as a solution to that
No, I don't see an issue there. Because each Pro Tour is a single discrete event. Doing well in one should have no bearing on acceptance to the next.
I have no problems with people having to qualify for each individual tour separately. I also think people are dramatically overestimating how many people will spend the ridiculous amounts of money it would cost to grind out entry onto a single pro tour. There is no way that can yield a positive return on investment.
there only needs to be 100 players out of millions who want to do it, there will be
See, I think that everyone is missing what is happening here. WotC cannot sustain designing MTG (making worlds, characters, cards, etc.) AND organizing play. Their is no reason for them to, unless they jack up prices and keep the winnings down. At that rate, no one would go. Or they could funnel the cost onto us in a different way (i.e. higher pack prices which is not what I want to happen). For the overall future of MTG, these are steps that need to be taken. They have limited resources and those resources need to used very carefully.
Do you have ANY idea how much $$$ Wizards is making, just on MODO alone? Digital Objects that cost zero to make (yes I know there are server costs, but it's minimal compared to their intake). Let's take an online PTQ for example. PTQ's online are like 500 players or more. It's 30 TIX to enter at 1$ per ticket. That's 15,000$ intake for them, and they give out what in return, a predetermined number of packs that is nowhere near that amount in real $'s and one, a single pro tour invite, out of 500 people. And that is ONE event, and not including paper magic etc... Wizard's is INTAKING a ton of money.
And the majority of players would disagree with your post I say.
And it's not like competitive MTG is going away, WotC (Hasbro) is looking for someone (maybe starcitygames) to be the "banner" carrier for them.
no, hasbro execs are looking at numbers on pieces of paper and trying to make them look good... and not realize, who and why and how those numbers even get there...
I'm a little confused as to why cutting the number and accessibility of pro events will be the death of the game. Granted, it's a lame thing to do for those that want to attempt getting into them, and pretty obviously all of Wizard's recent actions are the result of Hasbro putting the squeeze on them to cut unprofitable spending and aggressively push more product.
But, I would assume the vast majority of their profits come from casual players and FNM-level players. And my impression is that the majority of casual and FNM players don't particularly care all that much about the specifics of the pro tour/GPs/nationals/worlds/etc. because it simply doesn't apply to them.
Why does everyone keep saying that the "main way" or the "only way" to make it ont the PTQ is to grind your way on there?
Under this system 2 people qualify by winning a PTQ for every 1 person that qualifies by grinding...
Seems to me like the main way to qualify is by winning a PTQ.
the issues are greater than that... under the new system, someone can win the 1st and 2nd pro tour, and still not be qued for the 3rd... don't you see an issue there?
In that "open letter to Wizards", how many of those players still play on a regular basis? Or rather, ACTUALLY have to play to get anything out of the system now?
Wizards (Hasbro) has made the choice to move to a system that rewards people that play (or as the complainers like to call it "grinding") so deal with it. I would have actually preferred that they completely started the PWP system with everyone at 0.
This is a new age in MTG, and for the ones that are worried that we are going to lose "pros", don't you think that we will have new ones to fill the gap? People retire all the time from the game. Look at Jon Finkel and Kai Budde, they are great players yes. Some of the best, but they don't play very often anymore. Guess who has taken up the spotlight now, people like Gerry Thompson, Brad Nelson, etc.
And about the international scene, like I said, everyone is complaining instead of taking action to make a great tournament scene there.
I live in Muskegon, MI, with a population of about 200,000 people. Not a small town by any means, but not a huge metropolitan area either. The nearest big tournaments have been 3 hours away (that would be every bit of $100 in gas and food alone to go, not including entry fee, hotel, etc.), one way, for me. So it's not like you think it is here either, we don't have 5k's in every city or anything like that. If I wanted to play in a bigger tournament, I would talk to my local game shops about maybe getting one here or I would get in contact with a major player like Starcitygames to get it to happen.
EDIT: I just want to add, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling!!!", get a grip people. It's not the end of MTG by any means.
yes, that guy Jon Finkel who didn't play for years and then came back out of nowhere and just won a PT... maybe that's because he's way more skilled than any of the "players" are going to be.
Jon took YEARS off of magic and did nothing, came back and won a PT right off the bat, no grinder will EVER be able to do this.
To be honest, I am not sure exactly what the incentives are anymore for a player. Say you qualify on PWP for a Pro Tour and win it, prize is 40,000. After taxes you clear somewhere around 25,000. Let's say you travel to 5 GP's, 10 PTQ's, Side Events, FNM's etc... I'd be willing to bet that you are spending approx 10k on grinding it out with travel, hotel, entry fees, cards etc... So to win a Pro Tour you can make 15k... McDonalds pays you more.
People blowing things out of proportion.... On salvation...Get out of here
you mean the 16 players that got there because they grinded onto the PT in the first place... In a skill based world we would have almost the same 16 player at worlds every year... Under the new system, we will have mostly 16 new players every worlds... I challenge this to Wizards.
Let's make a new event... you take the 16 players invited to worlds every year... and the players will hand pick 16 players and we will face them off...
I guarantee you, the hand picked players would win every single year...
IIRC, we didn't get the list for FtV: Legends until we were a week out. So no, probably not yet, if we're playing by WotC's rules.
That said, I'm killing myself to see the full list too.
So after a brilliant letter from the best 5 players to ever live (well it didn't have PV) including Kai Budde, John Finkel, and LSV; Wizards took the ball and ran in the OTHER direction.
Similar things have happened to card games before and I think to not good effect ...
No, I'm saying that if skill alone is the determining factor to qualifying for the pro tour, then people with many non-magic commitments can have some professional success. If however travel to weekly lower level tournaments (5ks, even fnm grinding) is a necessary condition for qualification, then a number of players who might be quite good are ruled out. In brief, who deserves to be a pro? Is being skilled at this game enough, or do you have to grind as well? I think the former. The original quote that I was responding to was addressing the issue of grinding and defending its place in the new pwp system.
this... a WoW way of thinking... those who grind get the best gear... I would challenge almost any gamer that plays WoW, or Halo etc... to play SNES games and games like Counter-Strike that are completely skill based games.
I very well doubt that TO's would have a hard time raising funds to reward players. So what if the prize pool is low (maybe it could be higher as well), they are playing for pride more then anything at this stage.
If people really want to make a living at playing MTG, they could make it happen. Raise the entry cost (which means at this point it still is only for a select, or privileged, group of players as well) and you have higher rewards.
And I have a job and family, but if I really wanted to make it happen, I'm pretty sure that I could. Just shut up and play. Not everyone is privileged to have the money, skill, time, etc. to be a "pro". And on top of that, this doesn't even effect the majority of MTG players. How many individuals really go to National Qualifiers, maybe 10% of the MTG community?
What you don't understand, is that 10% is the reason why much of the 90% exists. Look at any major sport, do you think that anywhere close to 10% of baseball, or basketball, or football players have a chance at being pro, no, it's way less than 1%... however, if you were to ask anyone of them why they got into the sport, they'd cite off their favorite pros in the NBA, MLB, or NFL... I want to be Peyton Manning when I grow up, or Kobe is the bomb, etc... the point is, having a solid pro structure is what inspires other kids... even at my local FNM where most of the players have never been to a major event, they talk about people like Chapin and LSV etc like they are their mentors... I've told them about how I've been to PT's and friends with this player and that, and they are like "You know Ben Lundquist... are you serious?"...
I've traveled all over for MTG throughout my life and the tight social structure is what makes this game popular... traveling to events to see all the people you know from around the world is A LOT of why this game is so popular.
Look at it this way, you have pros in every major city across the US and Europe. Each of those Pros have a story and a group of friends that they hang out with. Each of those friends have more friends etc... and they fuel the Magic community in their respective cities. Here in Texas, we have an entire forum dedicated to TexasMagic... texasmagiczone.com... here the players stay close nitted and discuss who made what, when, where... who quallified for the PT, whose carpooling to events, etc... and without the pro's that live here, those social structure's would most likely fall apart... they want to travel with the pro so they can get better and know more people etc... If we start having the magic scene be store to store based, we will see a giant falling off of the social structure that this game is losing.
If we start to break apart the Pro structure of this game, it will eventually domino downwards to the store level, and the only people left will be kids who play for the wizards and dragons... and by judging from my local store, most of the time they play once a week at most due to lack of financial support. They can't afford to draft or play in multiple events a week. They work at grocery stores and starbucks and can't afford 15$ drafts every week, and to buy new packs to make new decks for all the formats. I live in Texas, where it's a very large state and I know almost every single Magic player that is in it for the competition of the game and those are the people who are going to PTQ's, buying cases to practice draft (when INN was released, my practice team bought a total of 10 cases between us to practice sealed, drafting and to obtain sets for constructed play... the FNMers and casual players bought maybe a case or 2 worth of boxes combined, so when you think that the casual player is the one busting packs every week to support MTG, you are very very wrong), drafting every week, and building gauntlets to playtest for events. Every PTQ in this state consists of the same people. Around 70% regulars and the other 30% are the locals who come out to only the PTQ closest to their home. From what I am already hearing, that 70% is losing interest more and more every day with the PWP system and now this. When they first announced PWP, I was like, cool I'm going to grind my ass off, go to every PTQ, 2 FNM's a week, every GP I can make, every thursday night draft, every single event possible... then after a week I was like, WHAT THE EFF AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE, grinding hardcore to MAYBE get on the PT again.
In short, my point is, the FNMers, the netdeckers, the casual player, they look up to the pro's... and their friends are semi-pros.... and those semi-pros have a ton of friends who comprise travel groups to major events, and those travel groups have stores that have casual players that look up to them because they are good players and have the insight of the PT etc... if we crumble the pro circuit, it will effect the casual player, that's just my 2c
Contrary to popular thought, America isn't actually the only country in the world.
this is my biggest issue with all the changes that WOTC is making, and I LIVE IN THE US... I hate cooperate america that only ever worries about their bottom line, when that means "oh snap, I didn't get my 2 milly bonus this year, hrmm where can we make that up"
WOTC does A LOT of things without thinking them through, AKA every single version of Magic Online. Their philosophy with things seems to be "shoot now, ask questions later"
You can see the patterns with things like when Lowyrn was released... "from now on blocks will be 4 sets consisting of two mini blocks, and those mini blocks can be drafted either 112 or 122 or 133 or 233 or oh we don't even know what were saying anymore but here it is... oh crap we made a mistake, well go back to three set blocks, but let's draft them backwards now and see what happens..." then we move to modo, Let's make this crazy cool modo with 3d playing rooms and leagues and all this... crap nobody here knows how to code... let's just release v3 that has more issues than 2 ever did... I know we can give people a timeline of when we plan to add certain features to get them onboard with the buggy program... "but sir we aren't ever go to get to those feature.... SHHHHHHHH!!!"
this... LISTEN!
This....is Spam Warning.
right, which is why the pro's suggested, rating decay as a solution to that
there only needs to be 100 players out of millions who want to do it, there will be
wizards better know what they are doing, cause when the dust settles, I think things are going to change, A LOT
Do you have ANY idea how much $$$ Wizards is making, just on MODO alone? Digital Objects that cost zero to make (yes I know there are server costs, but it's minimal compared to their intake). Let's take an online PTQ for example. PTQ's online are like 500 players or more. It's 30 TIX to enter at 1$ per ticket. That's 15,000$ intake for them, and they give out what in return, a predetermined number of packs that is nowhere near that amount in real $'s and one, a single pro tour invite, out of 500 people. And that is ONE event, and not including paper magic etc... Wizard's is INTAKING a ton of money.
no, hasbro execs are looking at numbers on pieces of paper and trying to make them look good... and not realize, who and why and how those numbers even get there...
read my post #120
the issues are greater than that... under the new system, someone can win the 1st and 2nd pro tour, and still not be qued for the 3rd... don't you see an issue there?
yes, that guy Jon Finkel who didn't play for years and then came back out of nowhere and just won a PT... maybe that's because he's way more skilled than any of the "players" are going to be.
Jon took YEARS off of magic and did nothing, came back and won a PT right off the bat, no grinder will EVER be able to do this.
To be honest, I am not sure exactly what the incentives are anymore for a player. Say you qualify on PWP for a Pro Tour and win it, prize is 40,000. After taxes you clear somewhere around 25,000. Let's say you travel to 5 GP's, 10 PTQ's, Side Events, FNM's etc... I'd be willing to bet that you are spending approx 10k on grinding it out with travel, hotel, entry fees, cards etc... So to win a Pro Tour you can make 15k... McDonalds pays you more.
you mean the 16 players that got there because they grinded onto the PT in the first place... In a skill based world we would have almost the same 16 player at worlds every year... Under the new system, we will have mostly 16 new players every worlds... I challenge this to Wizards.
Let's make a new event... you take the 16 players invited to worlds every year... and the players will hand pick 16 players and we will face them off...
I guarantee you, the hand picked players would win every single year...
don't kill yourself, there is no animate dead IRL
can you link the letter?
this... a WoW way of thinking... those who grind get the best gear... I would challenge almost any gamer that plays WoW, or Halo etc... to play SNES games and games like Counter-Strike that are completely skill based games.
You grind, you make the Pro Tour...
What you don't understand, is that 10% is the reason why much of the 90% exists. Look at any major sport, do you think that anywhere close to 10% of baseball, or basketball, or football players have a chance at being pro, no, it's way less than 1%... however, if you were to ask anyone of them why they got into the sport, they'd cite off their favorite pros in the NBA, MLB, or NFL... I want to be Peyton Manning when I grow up, or Kobe is the bomb, etc... the point is, having a solid pro structure is what inspires other kids... even at my local FNM where most of the players have never been to a major event, they talk about people like Chapin and LSV etc like they are their mentors... I've told them about how I've been to PT's and friends with this player and that, and they are like "You know Ben Lundquist... are you serious?"...
I've traveled all over for MTG throughout my life and the tight social structure is what makes this game popular... traveling to events to see all the people you know from around the world is A LOT of why this game is so popular.
Look at it this way, you have pros in every major city across the US and Europe. Each of those Pros have a story and a group of friends that they hang out with. Each of those friends have more friends etc... and they fuel the Magic community in their respective cities. Here in Texas, we have an entire forum dedicated to TexasMagic... texasmagiczone.com... here the players stay close nitted and discuss who made what, when, where... who quallified for the PT, whose carpooling to events, etc... and without the pro's that live here, those social structure's would most likely fall apart... they want to travel with the pro so they can get better and know more people etc... If we start having the magic scene be store to store based, we will see a giant falling off of the social structure that this game is losing.
If we start to break apart the Pro structure of this game, it will eventually domino downwards to the store level, and the only people left will be kids who play for the wizards and dragons... and by judging from my local store, most of the time they play once a week at most due to lack of financial support. They can't afford to draft or play in multiple events a week. They work at grocery stores and starbucks and can't afford 15$ drafts every week, and to buy new packs to make new decks for all the formats. I live in Texas, where it's a very large state and I know almost every single Magic player that is in it for the competition of the game and those are the people who are going to PTQ's, buying cases to practice draft (when INN was released, my practice team bought a total of 10 cases between us to practice sealed, drafting and to obtain sets for constructed play... the FNMers and casual players bought maybe a case or 2 worth of boxes combined, so when you think that the casual player is the one busting packs every week to support MTG, you are very very wrong), drafting every week, and building gauntlets to playtest for events. Every PTQ in this state consists of the same people. Around 70% regulars and the other 30% are the locals who come out to only the PTQ closest to their home. From what I am already hearing, that 70% is losing interest more and more every day with the PWP system and now this. When they first announced PWP, I was like, cool I'm going to grind my ass off, go to every PTQ, 2 FNM's a week, every GP I can make, every thursday night draft, every single event possible... then after a week I was like, WHAT THE EFF AM I DOING WITH MY LIFE, grinding hardcore to MAYBE get on the PT again.
In short, my point is, the FNMers, the netdeckers, the casual player, they look up to the pro's... and their friends are semi-pros.... and those semi-pros have a ton of friends who comprise travel groups to major events, and those travel groups have stores that have casual players that look up to them because they are good players and have the insight of the PT etc... if we crumble the pro circuit, it will effect the casual player, that's just my 2c
this is my biggest issue with all the changes that WOTC is making, and I LIVE IN THE US... I hate cooperate america that only ever worries about their bottom line, when that means "oh snap, I didn't get my 2 milly bonus this year, hrmm where can we make that up"
WOTC does A LOT of things without thinking them through, AKA every single version of Magic Online. Their philosophy with things seems to be "shoot now, ask questions later"
You can see the patterns with things like when Lowyrn was released... "from now on blocks will be 4 sets consisting of two mini blocks, and those mini blocks can be drafted either 112 or 122 or 133 or 233 or oh we don't even know what were saying anymore but here it is... oh crap we made a mistake, well go back to three set blocks, but let's draft them backwards now and see what happens..." then we move to modo, Let's make this crazy cool modo with 3d playing rooms and leagues and all this... crap nobody here knows how to code... let's just release v3 that has more issues than 2 ever did... I know we can give people a timeline of when we plan to add certain features to get them onboard with the buggy program... "but sir we aren't ever go to get to those feature.... SHHHHHHHH!!!"
WTF WOTC?