You can always run blooming marsh instead of black cleave cliffs great alternative
it's not in anyway, the advantage of of blackcleave cliffs is the ability to bolt or discard turn 1, for no life. I can't think of any deck that needs green on turn 1 for no life that also needs discard. Some sort of BUG midrange with dorks maybe? Lantern? But they don't need red.
BGx Elves often runs a full set of Blooming Marsh, but that's all that comes to mind immediately. Maybe Living End has a few as well?
But yeah, Blackcleave is super important for the reasons you noted.
Any thoughts on the price trajectory of Vendillion Clique? I am looking to get a Morningtide foil, but with the reprint in 25, I wasn't too sure if now would be a good time. I am hoping to pick up the card for around 75 rather than the 90/100 dollar price tag currently.
To loop back around to this question, original printing foils are notorious for their price stickiness. Morningtide foils have been on a downward trajectory after being bought out around M15, but a simple meta shift (Modern or Legacy) could send them up to the $200 range easily, and reprints aren't likely to deflate them. (The current trend is probably more price correction than reprint-related, since it's never dipped around reprint time.) So you may be able to save a few bucks by waiting a couple months, but my suspicion is that their floor isn't much below their current value because of the original+foil deal.
Kind of an aside here, but... everyone talks about one of the main obstacles of reprinting cards for Modern being that it has to be considered how it would affect Standard.
Well, I think if you look at that issue, you will realize that we're assuming that an aspect of expansion sets is the way it is only because it's always been that way. But we've seen evidence of the contrary. New cards don't have to be legal in Standard.
Commander sets are legal in Legacy and Vintage. They add new cards to those formats, and those new cards never have to worry about "passing through Standard". So with that in mind, they could create a set where the cards are legal in Modern, Legacy, and Vintage, but not in Standard (Unless it's something already legal in Standard). They could use this set to reprint all kinds of things that would be great in Modern but cause problems in Standard. They could even print new cards specifically made to match the power level of Modern without worrying about how they would affect Standard.
I mean, hell... they could release a set containing new cards only for Vintage, on the same power level as the cards that make Vintage worth playing. Not saying they should, just that there are a lot of options here. The idea that the cards would ruin Standard is based on a faulty premise.
The reason people assume that was because WotC repeatedly stated that they had no intention of letting cards into Modern via anything other than Standard. However, the mood around that has started to change after Maro's recent tweet on the subject, which is AFAIK the first time they've ever said anything other than "No. Full stop."
What do you guys mean with "Cloudpost would make Tron OP"? Do you mean a deck with both the Tron and Post manabase or Cloudpost as a "Tron" archetype of producing tons of colorless mana? Going to assume it's the latter.
I have considered Cloudpost in the past and still may love it, but I see a couple of problems with it. Firstly, Tron can play it AND Tron, making it a super powerful deck that can also play Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn now. The second problem is Glimmerpost, which shores up some of Tron's worst matchups.
I rarely am so explicit but Cloudpost would literally break Tron/E.Tron completely. It would get to Eldrazi winter levels.
Oh, c'mon. IIRC the deck failed to get a single top8 slot in that first and last Modern GP while it was legal. Even if 12post is more powerful than Tron, it stills crumples to combo. Besides, having Eye of Ugin banned is huge since now they can't sequence a play of using a land tutor to get the Eye and then use the Eye to get an Eldrazi. Now 12Post would have to rely on getting luky with Stirrings to get their Eldrazi on time.
The main argument against Cloudpost would probably be that it is the kind of deck that preys on the fair decks and by doing so it favors the preponderance of the linear kind of decks that are seen more as a necessary evil than something worth promoting. But with land hate getting better Cloudpost is a far more safe card to unban than Pod or Twin.
Discussing the current metagame, what is your position on Infect as of now? Seems to have fallen out of favor as of late but the kind of strategy required to beat it is quite unique (enough cheap removal) and doesn't get splash damage from Affinity or Bogles hate.
Historically speaking, 12 Post has been a format-breaker. It took only one month to get banned, and that was before Thespian's Stage or the Newdrazi. In the subsequent No Banlist Modern gauntlets people run time to time, it's usually Eldrazi Winter On Steroids (Eye helps, but the Post package is the bigger factor IMO). It's generally in competition for the most broken deck in the format with Almost-Legacy Elves (sporting Glimpse of Nature and Skullclamp), Basically Show-And-Tell, and HeyLookIGot7 (or 8 counting me) CardsUnbanned Storm.
Of course NBLM isn't a great barometer. But combined with Legacy 12 Post and the deck requiring a 1-month-in emergency ban, I think it's a terribly unwise unban target.
That's a good point about the names, since they do lead to a lot of confusion and misevaluation. I know some other games also use "tier" to mean "frequency of play," but I don't know how common that is and/or if there's an accepted term for frequency that's less value laden.
That said, Humans at Common and Skred at Mythic sends an even wrong-er signal IMO, since it has the same problem with being value laden but this time in the opposite direction.
Hmm, I'm not sure everyone's onboard with Counterspell being Modern-safe, which is mostly who I'm addressing. But yeah, I'm super banking on this tweet. Maybe we'll get a Fatal Push-style counter that's stronger in Modern than Standard, but after missing the chance with Delve, and then with Revolt, and then with Cycling, and now with Kicker unless some Kicker cards went unspoilered, I'm not too hopeful with that one.
However, I don't think Standard folks are as against Counterspell as you think. The last time the format had a widely played effectively-Counterspell card was Silumgar's Scorn which was effectively the same thing the bulk of the time in the Constructed decks that ran it. (And even if you didn't draw into a Dragon, Force Spiking a card early on is a non-trivial thing.) Not only did I never hear anyone complain about it, it was a part of one of Standard's greatest eras.
I could be wrong though. I haven't had my finger on the pulse of Standard for a long time.
Yeah for sure. I think you need something to counter with 2 mana that costs 3 or 4 mana and isn't dead late. Prohibit is basically unplayable because it cannot counter Lili and that is mostly gameover... I do run more Counters than most UW lists with 1 Snare, 3 Knot and 1-2 Negate but it is definitly not good enough. Maybe a reverse Countersquall but that is just a nuance. UU counter target spell with Cmc 3 may be okay but not really. Counterspell is what we need.
I'm so tempted to bring us to that terrible place of custom card discussion, lol*.
*Not that it's a terrible place per se, but probably when it happens in Established Modern.
KTK found a very interesting analysis of the Modern meta. I'm not up enough on the method or the meta to provide thoughts on its accuracy/relevance, but as idSurge said, it passes the sniff test.
As a Control player, the thing that really jumps out at me is that the two control decks putting up any results are the two that have adopted land hate as an integral part of their strategy: UW (Field of Ruin, Spreading Seas) and Blue Moon (the card it's named after).
I can't help but feel disappointed in that status quo. When I play Control, I want to trade threats and responses in a race of tempo vs. incremental advantage. But the field is so diverse and Control's answers are so weak/narrow/sparse/slow (pick 1-4 depending on your colors) that it looks like we just need to suck it up and become Ponza-lite to be competitive. Of course decks like Jeskai can put up results too, but seems pretty dependent on getting matchups that are soft to cards that say "Deal 3 damage," which more and more decks either a) aren't (e.g. Hollow one), or b) are disruptive enough not to be that soft to it anyways (e.g. Humans).
I really don't see how being stuck under a Bolt - Remand - Blood Moon is less frustrating or better for the meta than Counterspell. Just give us a Thoughtseize-level viable catch-all. Hell, make it dome me for 2 or ramp my opponent a la Path. I'll gladly jump off the mana-screw-you plan and play some real control
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
I think it is a problem, when the creature is a Bird, Hierarch or even a Dark Confidant. I'm not that big of a fan to kill the mana creatures, but Oust them was mostly a good thing as they normally don't want to re-draw it. Pathing Confindant is really bad just because you have to do it in your turn and Jund really likes beeing ramped for T3. There maybe some other situation, where it is really bad, but mostly I do agree, that the upsides of Path are way better for this kind of deck than the downsides, especially when you overload on these effects with Settle and Field.
UW is favored vs most bird decks. Who cares if they play a bird unless it's ponza with a sick curve. But I do agree path is a terrible card vs rock decks. But even with path as the removal spell vs rock decks the match up is very close.
I guess to clarify. Path does have downsides. But I think a bigger weakness of the deck is lack of good 2 cmc counters.
Yeah, that is abolutely right, but I'm sure they will not give us Counterpell, which would be fine for the format I think so maybe some kind of fatal push Counter? But again, I don't expect them to do that anytime soon. Something what I would like in the format would be an Unexpectedly Absent, which could be really shut down some of the bad situations this deck could face. For lifegain, you mostly need something that is added to another effect. I do play 1-2 Blessed Alliance Main as well as one Sphinx's Revelation for these reasons, but mostly other cards would be more effective if I wouldn't value the lifegain part of these cards.
Prohibit is a "fatal push" counter, but it's probably not playable. miscalculation could be interesting, but it's probably more playable in the control decks without path.
UW has the tools to crush creature decks with settle the wreckage, oust, condemn, terminus, etc...
UW has the tools to he favored vs combo with all the various blue counter spells.
But when you try to make a balanced deck, trying to beat fair and unfair decks. It's the counter spell suite that's the weakest, as they are all situational, until you hit 3/4 mana(but none of the 3 mana counters are worth playing).
I think this deck will see more improvement from getting a better counterspell than getting a 1 cmc removal spell.
I agree. I was doing some homebrew testing with what is basically Path to Counterspell for WU and it felt like that was the missing piece.
I never expected it in Standard Playable Set but I expect to see them in Commander Decks eventually especially with them buffing the power. Granted that doesn't help Modern Playability.
I hadn't thought of pushing it through a supplemental product, but it would have to have the crap printed out of it. Given Sword of Fire and Ice is sitting pretty at $50 with virtually off the back of casual, EDH, and a 1-of in some Legacy lists. (I think that covers it, right?)
with Rickster, rogue_LOVE and Gen0syde86 help, I've came with a solid build and I finally went undefeated yesterday! I won against Burn with a Jace -12 (the card is awesome). Also, I won againt Ad Nauseam 2-1, losing game 1 but winning postboard with 2 Dispel, 2 Ceremonious Rejection, 2 Stony Silence and 3 Detention Sphere. I took out 4 Path, 2 Supreme and 2 Wall. It felt great to win that match.
Congratulations! Ulting Jace vs. Burn has got to be a sweet feeling.
On GSZ, think of it like this: if Llanowar Elves had a second mode that said "You may pay an additional 2 when you cast this spell to turn it into a Tarmogoyf," that would be a problem*. And that's card actually is not actually as good as GSZ. That amount of flexibility and ubiquity and consistency and power all for such a small cost is hugely problematic.
*For the unaware, GSZ is effectively a mana dork when used to fetch Dryad Arbor.
I love that DRS will likely eat a Legacy ban eventually. That such a simple design can be OP is a great lesson.
I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they printed that card. Like... that was seriously approaching Skullclamp levels of obviously broken. (Not the same level of power, mind, but the same level of obviously not balanced.) I actually literally looked at the spoiler, thought "Wow, they seriously f***ed up!" and then ordered every one I could find.
But yeah, Blackcleave is super important for the reasons you noted.
This seems hard to square given the difference in strength and results between Jund and Grixis.
I think maybe by "mainly black" you mean "has more black symbols," but I think either way this is a misevalutation.
To loop back around to this question, original printing foils are notorious for their price stickiness. Morningtide foils have been on a downward trajectory after being bought out around M15, but a simple meta shift (Modern or Legacy) could send them up to the $200 range easily, and reprints aren't likely to deflate them. (The current trend is probably more price correction than reprint-related, since it's never dipped around reprint time.) So you may be able to save a few bucks by waiting a couple months, but my suspicion is that their floor isn't much below their current value because of the original+foil deal.
The reason people assume that was because WotC repeatedly stated that they had no intention of letting cards into Modern via anything other than Standard. However, the mood around that has started to change after Maro's recent tweet on the subject, which is AFAIK the first time they've ever said anything other than "No. Full stop."
Historically speaking, 12 Post has been a format-breaker. It took only one month to get banned, and that was before Thespian's Stage or the Newdrazi. In the subsequent No Banlist Modern gauntlets people run time to time, it's usually Eldrazi Winter On Steroids (Eye helps, but the Post package is the bigger factor IMO). It's generally in competition for the most broken deck in the format with Almost-Legacy Elves (sporting Glimpse of Nature and Skullclamp), Basically Show-And-Tell, and Hey Look I Got 7 (or 8 counting me) Cards Unbanned Storm.
Of course NBLM isn't a great barometer. But combined with Legacy 12 Post and the deck requiring a 1-month-in emergency ban, I think it's a terribly unwise unban target.
But yeah, mainly Jeskai and UW Control.
That said, Humans at Common and Skred at Mythic sends an even wrong-er signal IMO, since it has the same problem with being value laden but this time in the opposite direction.
However, I don't think Standard folks are as against Counterspell as you think. The last time the format had a widely played effectively-Counterspell card was Silumgar's Scorn which was effectively the same thing the bulk of the time in the Constructed decks that ran it. (And even if you didn't draw into a Dragon, Force Spiking a card early on is a non-trivial thing.) Not only did I never hear anyone complain about it, it was a part of one of Standard's greatest eras.
I could be wrong though. I haven't had my finger on the pulse of Standard for a long time.
I'm so tempted to bring us to that terrible place of custom card discussion, lol*.
*Not that it's a terrible place per se, but probably when it happens in Established Modern.
As a Control player, the thing that really jumps out at me is that the two control decks putting up any results are the two that have adopted land hate as an integral part of their strategy: UW (Field of Ruin, Spreading Seas) and Blue Moon (the card it's named after).
I can't help but feel disappointed in that status quo. When I play Control, I want to trade threats and responses in a race of tempo vs. incremental advantage. But the field is so diverse and Control's answers are so weak/narrow/sparse/slow (pick 1-4 depending on your colors) that it looks like we just need to suck it up and become Ponza-lite to be competitive. Of course decks like Jeskai can put up results too, but seems pretty dependent on getting matchups that are soft to cards that say "Deal 3 damage," which more and more decks either a) aren't (e.g. Hollow one), or b) are disruptive enough not to be that soft to it anyways (e.g. Humans).
I really don't see how being stuck under a Bolt - Remand - Blood Moon is less frustrating or better for the meta than Counterspell. Just give us a Thoughtseize-level viable catch-all. Hell, make it dome me for 2 or ramp my opponent a la Path. I'll gladly jump off the mana-screw-you plan and play some real control
Or maybe I'm totally out of touch. IDK; change my mind.
I agree. I was doing some homebrew testing with what is basically Path to Counterspell for WU and it felt like that was the missing piece.
I hadn't thought of pushing it through a supplemental product, but it would have to have the crap printed out of it. Given Sword of Fire and Ice is sitting pretty at $50 with virtually off the back of casual, EDH, and a 1-of in some Legacy lists. (I think that covers it, right?)
Probably never/the cycle is already complete.
Congratulations! Ulting Jace vs. Burn has got to be a sweet feeling.
*For the unaware, GSZ is effectively a mana dork when used to fetch Dryad Arbor.
I honestly don't know what they were thinking when they printed that card. Like... that was seriously approaching Skullclamp levels of obviously broken. (Not the same level of power, mind, but the same level of obviously not balanced.) I actually literally looked at the spoiler, thought "Wow, they seriously f***ed up!" and then ordered every one I could find.