I do remember the "What About Affinity?" question being answered in the months following the Twin ban. IIRC, a Modern WotC higher-up (don't recall who, unfortunately) said that the format can regulate Affinity. The hate works, and when a meta adapts for Affinity, Affinity loses. That made bans unnecessary in their view.
The same thing was, in their opinion, not true about Twin. Even when WotC printed hate in Standard to reign it in, the meta couldn't adapt to a place when Twin wouldn't be the best deck.
Love it or hate it, that was their line at the time. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it, and that's as someone who got his Twins in the mail literally the week of the banning.
I have been playing control decks for a couple years. Started with mono-U tron, then moved to RUG scapeshift. Since last year, I have been trying Esper variants (mentor/gifts/obzadat). I love the control element, but am a bit tired of being reactive in current meta.
I'm looking for something more linear/combo/fast, and a deck that I can also grow with.
KCI seems really fun, but I can't afford the MOXsss....any recommendation? Thanks a lot!
Cards you already own:
most of the control elements (U counter spells, BW kill spells, B discards, W sideboard cards, Tron lands)
Fetch lands (UW/UB/UG/GB)
Shock lands and some fast lands
Colors you like to play
I LOVE blue, but probably have to shift to other colors if I want a new linear style -- which I'm totally open
Style you like to play (control, combo, aggro, midrange, tempo, ramp, rogue)
currently seeking for COMBO/rouge
Level you want to play at, or aim to build up to (causal, fmn, ptq)
FNM, maybe ptq
If you want Blue combo, Storm is about the blueiest comboiest deck you can get right now. And if you're willing to run Strand and Delta over Tarn, it shouldn't be hard for you to put it together. (I did that for a while and while it will technically cost you points here and there, you almost never need to fetch basic Mountain.)
If you want a little less linearity and a lot of growth potential, Grixis Death's Shadow is a good bet. The meta's kind of hostile to it now (as they say, if Stubborn Denial is bad, GDS is bad), but it's still a fine Tier 2 deck. Sounds like you probably have the money cards too, assuming you're again OK without Tarns and you have the Snaps already.
True-Name Nemesis is a big no go IMO. The rest are all good targets.
Some people have some deep-seated trauma re: Baleful Strix, but I think it's more of the same kind of pushed as any other Modern staple. And speed bumps that incentivize aggressive decks to run a little interaction are always nice. (Better to spend your Bolt on the bird than lose your Angler to it.)
I dont think Counters are the issue. We could with the searching/draw/filtering we have now, run a deck with counters always being present in our hands.
The issue is, how do you turn the corner, or fight against the uncounterable, or prevent the ramp to uncounterable, or move forward with your own plan (free counters?) without losing on the spot.
That fundamentally is why Twin was legit, and anything since, is not.
I see this thought (and variations on it) all the time, and it's a huge case of single-cause fallacy. People pick a) selection, b) disruption, or c) finishers and stake out their ground that their Chosen Control Pillar is the one that matters. (The size of each side shifting with meta and mood.) Then we generally see the different sides battle it out for a few pages with no one making any progress.
This happens because in a way, each side is right: any one of those pillars is completely capable of propelling at least one Control deck into Modern Pillar status. The fallacy is in assuming that because it's true of one of them, the others can't be important.
Twin did make reactive Blue a thing, since the combo finish made up for the poor permission. But deciding that that means "Only a New Threat Will Save Us" is way off base. Twin is just a particularly sticky example, since it's on the banlist and has actually participated in Modern, rather than cards that have never been part of the format or homebrew thought experiments. But Grixis, Jeskai, and UW being in and out of the upper tiers for a while with various UR lists pushing up as well indicates that even if a better threat is sufficient, it's not necessary, and it says nothing about the other elements of Control being insufficient.
Personally I don't care which pillar WotC uses, but the selection pillar is the one that has the most risk since of the three, it would most empower linear decks.
I really don't like the idea of free counterspells as being necessary for control to beat combo. If you want to beat combo play discard, since that's what this format has, or a critical mass of countermagic.
Beating combo decks is easy. Play enough countermagic and sideboard some discard, be sure to play a decent clock.
The problem is that when you want a control deck to beat combo (or on a related note, big mana) in modern you have to give up some points in aggro matchups. Go figure - control loses to aggro, news at 11.
Modern is kind of a weird format in that control decks often have favorable aggro matchups but lose to combo decks. Because they don't play much countermagic.
I agree with Pistallion that there's not really a great need to regulate combo in at the moment. But that's because there are ~12 combo cards on the banlist, with others that aren't combo cards but were banned because of combo decks (Ponder and Preordain). A big reason for that, IMO, is the format's weak permission, coupled with the fact that the leading free counterspell is only playable by degenerate combo decks in the first place.
Personally I think stronger permission would make for a better, more robust meta with stronger self-regulation outside the ban list.
If too much linearity is the complaint, we should look to Legacy and see how their interactive decks work so well.
Firstly, Death's Shadow is the Delver of Modern. Right now, its surprisingly not doing as good as it was pre un-bannings of Jace and BBE. This is my reasoning that Street Wraith should not be banned due to Hallow One because it would kill Death's Shadow, which is a very skill intensive interactive deck. Traditional UR Delver, or pretty much any type of non- Death's Shadow tempo/ turbo-xerox pretty much can't exist in tier 1 Modern due to the tools that make the Legacy decks immensely powerful (Wasteland, Daze, Stifle).
I think the better comparison to Legacy would be the 4c Control decks and the Miracles decks. I think the first interesting thing is how absent counter magic really is besides Force of Will. People always say that counter magic is weak in Modern, but is counter magic just bad in general unless its free? I don't think that FoW will ever be reprinted in Standard, so I don't think that we should hope for that, but I don't think that a UU spell like Counterspell would even help blue based control decks. Cards like Logic Knot and Mana Leak are legal, and yes they are very different than Counterspell, but how relevant is the unconditional counterspell against the current fast meta of Humans and Hallow One? This is a loaded question and there are much more implications on Counterpell vs Mana Leak, but I think that Counterpell is not the answer.
The most glaring thing I see when it comes to Legacy control decks is how much better their cantrips are than Modern. Lets all be honest, Serum Visions is trash and I know most of the time it doesn't feel that great casting it when playing a control deck. I truly believe that if control decks were more consistent, Modern has the answers it needs. Look at all the removal in Legacy and you see that its all pretty much the same as Modern except Swords to Plowshares is traded with Path to Exile, which is not the biggest deal. I believe The main reason Legacy doesn't run Counterspell is because its simply less efficient to the abundance of the 1 CMC removal that both Legacy and Modern share.
So my question is, why is Preordain and Ponder still banned? There's one blue based tier 1 combo deck, and that's Storm. In a meta full of Humans and Death's Shadow (presumably Death's Shadow would rise due to Ponder or Preordain unbaning), how could Storm really thrive? I see Ponder or Preordain buffing fair decks much more than unfair decks. I'd also love to see a printing of Portent or Predict to give more opportunities to gain card advantage.
Lastly, I think it would be fine for Wotc to at least experiment with unbaning Stoneforge Mystic. If it serves to be too good or push out too many decks, then they can just reban it like they did with Golgari Grave Troll. I think that a short term experiment would be beneficial to the longevity of Magic's most popular format. Modern doesn't have Umezawa's Jitte and I believe that control decks really need efficient low cost threats that can also be answers.
Agreed generally, but I think you're underselling Counterspell. Logic Knot is good enough that 3 is common in decks with enough cantrips and fetches to support it, despite multiples being clunky as hell (especially with Snapcaster). I also think it's a trap to look fore The One Answer that will put Modern Control to exactly the right power level (whatever that may be), and dismiss cards that don't fit the bill. Counterspell is a good upgrade, which is good enough for me.
I'm gonna say to the people advocating for stoneforge mystic as if it is the hidden panacea that modern is missing: while I agree that the card itself is probably fine, it will do NOTHING to stop the onslaugh of linear decks. If it somehow becomes too prevalent (since not only control, but also death and taxes can use it effectively), then people will maindeck artifact hate and that will be that.
People who claim that stoneforge mystic is going to fix whatever they think is wrong with modern are, in my view, 100% wrong and their expectations are way too high. I think what people really want is a meta where control and midrange decks are mostly viable in high-level competitive play, which is simply not gonna happen. There are simply too many angles of attack that the linear decks are coming from for the control decks to be able to handle them. Counterspells like daze and force spike are also not gonna help. I think people ignore that humans play cavern of souls and hollow one play cards that recurr from the graveyard. Counterspells are not particularly effective against those decks.
It seems like most of the chatter in this thread at least around Stoneforge Mystic has been subdued and reasonable. It's simply a good step, and one of the best steps that can be accomplished via unbannings.
That said, I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of work that 4/4 vigilance lifelinker can put in. It's not an instant-scoop (if it were, that would be problematic), but it's a good tool for propelling a fair deck into the later stages with resources to spare.
The makeup and content of those linear decks though, is massively different. I can tell you I would much rather play against Affinity, Burn, and Infect than Hollow One, Humans, and Bogles.
This seems very subjective and I don't know if we can take this anywhere beyond your personal preferences. It's also a new argument I haven't heard before, which suggests to me we are moving goalposts. Normally, the argument is "Modern has become too linear now relative to a different time." But now the argument has shifted to "I don't like the kinds of linear decks in this new metagame but the percentage of linear decks is fine." I'm not sure you are trying to make that shift, and not sure if you are doing it intentionally, but that's how it comes across as. If so, it's very disingenuous.
I agree that it's moving the goal post of this specific conversation, but this is a very real concern that deserves discussion. Before the Probe banning, the linear decks were by and large soft to interaction. That meant there were multiple axes regulating them. What we've seen since the Jace and BBE unbannings is the linear decks largely coalescing into those that actually shut down or laugh at interaction*. That greatly weakens the format's primary methods of self-regulation.
I don't have hard numbers for this, but if you look at the top linear decks of each era, I think it holds up. We're talking Kiln Fiend, DS Zoo, and Infect vs. Humans, Hollow One, and Bogles with maindeck Leyline of Sanctity.
*For the most part, those decks were already on the up-and-up when the unbans came through. My hunch is that BBE and Jace just sped up that trend.
(Also note how neatly Stoneforge Mystic buffers the format against this trend.)
I tested Secure the Wastes tonight and it worked quite well against the decks I played. Probably going to keep it in.
The other card I'm not sure of is Field of Ruin. Sometimes it feels great, other times I'm not so sure. Drawing it when you need colored mana is terrible, but it helps a lot agaist manlands and Cavern. Should it be in all our decks?
Manlands, Caverns, Tron lands, and screwing over greedy mana bases are all good arguments. I know that some Grixis lists are running a full 4 Field (and I'd never sleeve up UW without the full set). I'd be hesitant to go up over 2 with Jeskai's 3 colors + heavy color weight, but it's probably doable.
The new meta is making me feel even more strongly that Stoneforge Mystic is a great unban target. At this point, Aggro is just trumping the interaction that's supposed to keep it in check. The early Batterskull is actually a good answer to those aggro decks, without being a complete hoser. For Hollow One, Bolt kills Mystic, Inquiry can discard Skull, Angler outsizes the 4/4, and the swam of recursive creatures can go around it. Humans can Freebooter away the Skull or Reflector Mage the germ while bashing face.
I'm especially in favor of an SFM unbanning as a Humans lover, just to keep the deck in check and keep the ban monkeys off of its back. Better answers means fewer bans. Fewer bans means better Magic.
*Anyway, I don't know how these cards will be able to "get" into Modern, unless WotC is willing to do Modern only sets.
Both cards are not that good in standard. Standard is not a fast format, not countering the first few turns play is not essential as it is in fast eternal formats. Daze would still be strong and heavily played, but not oppressive.
On top of that, there's MaRo's indication that they've warmed up to just bypassing Standard adding cards to the Modern card pool directly.
Force Spike would be good mostly on the play. I'd rather have a new free counter in order to be less dependant on being on the play.
Screw Daze, its place would be mostly the "I fully tapped my mana to deploy my threats feel free to play your answers into my tapped Breeding Pool" decks. Remand and Pact of Negation are enough permission spells for combo and tempo decks.
Pretty much my thoughts too. Apart from just Counterspell or a close enough analog, I'd love to see a good Disrupting Shoal/Force of Will compromise. Same as Shoal, except XUUU, and the alternate cost counters a spell of any CMC at the cost of that much life. Fixes the narrowness problem that leads Shoal to see next-to-zero play, and adds a very relevant cost on top of the card disadvantage to keep it honest and make it rough on decks that ignore the board state and their life total.
They might give us one but I'd be blown away if we ever got both. My money would be on Force Spike, since passing that through Standard seems more likely than Daze. Spell Pierce made it through, so I don't think Force Spike is out of the question. I'd personally love to have Daze, but it seems unlikely. Not sure we'd ever get anything better than Silumgar's Scorn, unless they completely do a 180 on how they feel about counter magic.
I don't see what impact Force Spike has when many reactive decks already have access to Mana Tithe, which is at best a cutesy fun-of run by a tiny fraction of reactive white decks.
Personally my issue with U-based Control doesn't even have to do with win percentages, conversion rates, or representation.
It's the fact that with the exception of Jeskai preying on decks that are weak to 3 damage, the Modern card pool has pretty much forced Control into Ponza Light. I'll suck it up and play RemandMoon or FieldOfSpreadingSeas.dec since they're IMO the best options available, sure. But I'd rather be trading threats for answers, and I have a hunch my opponent would prefer that too.
The same thing was, in their opinion, not true about Twin. Even when WotC printed hate in Standard to reign it in, the meta couldn't adapt to a place when Twin wouldn't be the best deck.
Love it or hate it, that was their line at the time. Personally, I don't really have a problem with it, and that's as someone who got his Twins in the mail literally the week of the banning.
If you want Blue combo, Storm is about the blueiest comboiest deck you can get right now. And if you're willing to run Strand and Delta over Tarn, it shouldn't be hard for you to put it together. (I did that for a while and while it will technically cost you points here and there, you almost never need to fetch basic Mountain.)
If you want a little less linearity and a lot of growth potential, Grixis Death's Shadow is a good bet. The meta's kind of hostile to it now (as they say, if Stubborn Denial is bad, GDS is bad), but it's still a fine Tier 2 deck. Sounds like you probably have the money cards too, assuming you're again OK without Tarns and you have the Snaps already.
True-Name Nemesis is a big no go IMO. The rest are all good targets.
Some people have some deep-seated trauma re: Baleful Strix, but I think it's more of the same kind of pushed as any other Modern staple. And speed bumps that incentivize aggressive decks to run a little interaction are always nice. (Better to spend your Bolt on the bird than lose your Angler to it.)
I see this thought (and variations on it) all the time, and it's a huge case of single-cause fallacy. People pick a) selection, b) disruption, or c) finishers and stake out their ground that their Chosen Control Pillar is the one that matters. (The size of each side shifting with meta and mood.) Then we generally see the different sides battle it out for a few pages with no one making any progress.
This happens because in a way, each side is right: any one of those pillars is completely capable of propelling at least one Control deck into Modern Pillar status. The fallacy is in assuming that because it's true of one of them, the others can't be important.
Twin did make reactive Blue a thing, since the combo finish made up for the poor permission. But deciding that that means "Only a New Threat Will Save Us" is way off base. Twin is just a particularly sticky example, since it's on the banlist and has actually participated in Modern, rather than cards that have never been part of the format or homebrew thought experiments. But Grixis, Jeskai, and UW being in and out of the upper tiers for a while with various UR lists pushing up as well indicates that even if a better threat is sufficient, it's not necessary, and it says nothing about the other elements of Control being insufficient.
Personally I don't care which pillar WotC uses, but the selection pillar is the one that has the most risk since of the three, it would most empower linear decks.
I agree with Pistallion that there's not really a great need to regulate combo in at the moment. But that's because there are ~12 combo cards on the banlist, with others that aren't combo cards but were banned because of combo decks (Ponder and Preordain). A big reason for that, IMO, is the format's weak permission, coupled with the fact that the leading free counterspell is only playable by degenerate combo decks in the first place.
Personally I think stronger permission would make for a better, more robust meta with stronger self-regulation outside the ban list.
Agreed generally, but I think you're underselling Counterspell. Logic Knot is good enough that 3 is common in decks with enough cantrips and fetches to support it, despite multiples being clunky as hell (especially with Snapcaster). I also think it's a trap to look fore The One Answer that will put Modern Control to exactly the right power level (whatever that may be), and dismiss cards that don't fit the bill. Counterspell is a good upgrade, which is good enough for me.
It seems like most of the chatter in this thread at least around Stoneforge Mystic has been subdued and reasonable. It's simply a good step, and one of the best steps that can be accomplished via unbannings.
That said, I also wouldn't underestimate the amount of work that 4/4 vigilance lifelinker can put in. It's not an instant-scoop (if it were, that would be problematic), but it's a good tool for propelling a fair deck into the later stages with resources to spare.
I agree that it's moving the goal post of this specific conversation, but this is a very real concern that deserves discussion. Before the Probe banning, the linear decks were by and large soft to interaction. That meant there were multiple axes regulating them. What we've seen since the Jace and BBE unbannings is the linear decks largely coalescing into those that actually shut down or laugh at interaction*. That greatly weakens the format's primary methods of self-regulation.
I don't have hard numbers for this, but if you look at the top linear decks of each era, I think it holds up. We're talking Kiln Fiend, DS Zoo, and Infect vs. Humans, Hollow One, and Bogles with maindeck Leyline of Sanctity.
*For the most part, those decks were already on the up-and-up when the unbans came through. My hunch is that BBE and Jace just sped up that trend.
(Also note how neatly Stoneforge Mystic buffers the format against this trend.)
Manlands, Caverns, Tron lands, and screwing over greedy mana bases are all good arguments. I know that some Grixis lists are running a full 4 Field (and I'd never sleeve up UW without the full set). I'd be hesitant to go up over 2 with Jeskai's 3 colors + heavy color weight, but it's probably doable.
I'm especially in favor of an SFM unbanning as a Humans lover, just to keep the deck in check and keep the ban monkeys off of its back. Better answers means fewer bans. Fewer bans means better Magic.
On top of that, there's MaRo's indication that they've warmed up to just bypassing Standard adding cards to the Modern card pool directly.
Pretty much my thoughts too. Apart from just Counterspell or a close enough analog, I'd love to see a good Disrupting Shoal/Force of Will compromise. Same as Shoal, except XUUU, and the alternate cost counters a spell of any CMC at the cost of that much life. Fixes the narrowness problem that leads Shoal to see next-to-zero play, and adds a very relevant cost on top of the card disadvantage to keep it honest and make it rough on decks that ignore the board state and their life total.
I don't see what impact Force Spike has when many reactive decks already have access to Mana Tithe, which is at best a cutesy fun-of run by a tiny fraction of reactive white decks.
It's the fact that with the exception of Jeskai preying on decks that are weak to 3 damage, the Modern card pool has pretty much forced Control into Ponza Light. I'll suck it up and play RemandMoon or FieldOfSpreadingSeas.dec since they're IMO the best options available, sure. But I'd rather be trading threats for answers, and I have a hunch my opponent would prefer that too.
I'm skeptical that flash is enough to mitigate the targeting restriction to put this ahead of Journey to Nowhere, which doesn't get played.