I have read your commander deck list and I really want to make a jhoira commander deck. The thing is that I started mtg at the start of this year so I only have cards from theros and onwards. Is there any good cards that would fit in a jhoira edh deck?
Full disclosure, I don't play Standard. So if I miss anything, that's why.
You can build a reasonable Jhoira deck using only cards in Standard. The problem comes when you say "How do I win?" If you don't go for some sort of combo, then you are just trying to beat people to death. The best beaters (Eldrazi, Blightsteel or even just Inferno Titan) are all out of Standard. You could try and kill people with creatures like Tromokratis, but then you might just think, I should be playing Surrak and have access to all the green creatures like Hydra Broodmaster.
You can also make a fairly decent dragon tribal Jhoira using a lot of the dragons in Standard.
I'm going to include cards that have just rotated out of standard with Khan. I think if you do some binder hunting then you can snap up a bunch of these now that they are dropping in price.
> Beaters Stormtide Leviathan - This is your bread-and-butter "budget beater". It does everything you want. It beats, and it slows the game down to your budget pace. And it fixes your mana.
Utvara Hellkite - This is about the fastest "budget" clock you have that just rotated out of standard and so you might get one for cheap.
Spawn of Thraxes/Scourge of Fleets - If you play an almost all basics land base, you should consider these. They don't combo with MLD. They don't kill people quickly. But they are dollar rares that you might have, that don't have irrelevant abilities.
Arbiter of the Ideal - Value card. 4 damage is not much of a clock, which might be helpful so that people don't kill it. Generally though, cards like Future Sight are better for this.
Master of Predicaments - Maybe this works. Especially when people don't know your deck. You can also use it politically.
Soul of Shandalar - The "3RR: 3 to player and 3 to dude" is not irrelevant." It really is only 6 power on the table, but at least its got a mana sink.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Indestructible is super relevant versus some player's decks. Its not Avacyn, cause you have to keep mana open (that's the reason Bribery is better than this btw, just steal an Avacyn).
> Clone and Theft Clever Impersonator - This card is just bonkers. And if you can't afford money cards, just clone other peoples stuff.
Hellkite Tyrant - You'll never pull the wincon off, but at least you can steal some good artifacts. Remember that you gain control of them forever, not just until Hellkite Tyrant leaves play.
Stolen Identity - Again, if you can't afford money cards, try cloning them. Unfortunately, this gets outclassed by cards like Phyrexian Metamorph.
Zealous Conscripts - Combos with Kiki-Jiki but he's gotten really expensive lately because of Modern. Still, stealing a big beater and then hitting that player with it works. Especially if you play some sort of sac outlet. Eg, Greater Gargadon style deck, with Dominus of Fealty, Insurrection etc etc.
> Mana Springleaf Drum - You can tap Jhoira for mana with this since you are rarely going to be attacking with her. Its really only going to be good if you play a lot of Inspired dudes that are in Standard, "No good attacks, pass turn. End of your turn, tap my dude"
Chromatic Lantern - I'd try and pick one of these up. It lets you play a little bit more greedy on your mana base.
Izzet Cluestone - Its a common. If you need to make it to 99 and have a one...
> Draw Treasure Cruise - If you're playing a slower long game, then this is going to just be "U: Draw three". Maybe it's a nonbo if you are playing cards like Snapcaster Mage, but you said standard.
Mercurial Chemister - This guy is good in games that slow right down. As soon as you get more than two activations of his "U: Draw 2" then you are on route to value town. It is really going to depend on how fast the games you play are. And I'd probably only include him if you had one, I wouldn't be looking for him.
> Removal Cyclonic Rift - This card is blantantly unfair. You should play it.
Curse of the Swine - Really depends on what you are up against. If you playing against decks where "exile" is important then play this. In most cases though cards like Blasphemous Act are better.
Vandalblast - Really shines in games where people have mana rocks and greedy artifacts.
Rapid Hybridization - One mana answer to a lot of problem generals. There are better answers like Hinder, but this is a common.
> Combo Howl of the Horde - If you end up getting your hands on a card like Time Warp, I'd consider this. Its a good cheap dollar rare addition, and it does some unfair things. But I would really look at the number of instants/sorceries you are playing before I added it.
Firemind's Foresight - There are a lot of combos with this card. Remember that it is only instants though. The "instant win" is Reiterate, Reset and Lightning Bolt to win on next opponent's upkeep. But you can get plenty of value of this regardless, especially if you get a copy of Mystical Tutor. For example, you could easily cast it end of turn for a Mystical Tutor, Increasing Vengeance and any three CMC instant, and then Mystical Tutor for Temporal Mastery, copying it a bunch with Increasing Vegeance. But you only play it if you have the cards to support it.
Enter the Infinite/Omniscience - If you can pick up a copy of both of these, you can play them. Just be warned that once people catch on, they will try and deck you.
> Equipment Chariot of Victory - You really should be playing Lightning Greaves because it protects Jhoira and it enables your late game fatties to come crashing in on the turn you play them. However, its entirely possible that this card is good in a budget Jhoira deck. Especially if you are trying to make it up to 99. It gives you first strike and trample, which means that your big 6/6 dudes aren't getting chumped. But other than that, it doesn't do much, and its the same CMC as Jhoira which is awkward. So its worth a consider and might be an early addition and early replacement.
That's a good starting point. I'd be looking at building up to 99 with any of these cards, and then doing some trading for some of the big hitters from previous sets.
mhmhm, what cards do add him to hand in mono white?
anyhow i did change my kaervek into malfegor, Vedalken Orrery is awesome, also i didn't take into consideration that he's a nice evasive beater WITH a wipe, aswell (especially with Skullclamp ,lol) im happy.
still the thread can keep goin,i love lists.
You can bounce him with cards like Erratic Portal. Or you can just use That Which Was Taken. Either option isn't great though cause of the total cost.
Sadly a lot of the monowhite commanders are great for a board wiping (like Mageta, Teroh or even Elesh Norn), but the restriction to only white really hurts too much. So if you want to board wipe a lot, you are better off playing something like Zurgo Helmsmasher and playing all the board wipes in the deck. But that's not what you want.
I'm actually building a Dralnu deck right now so this thread is good timing for me. I have a gimmicky all instants Talrand deck and it seems like a good evolution.
I was looking through gatherer for ways to make it fun. It seems like you could just jam every Time Warp and combo win that way, but that seems kinda boring. For example, play Time Stretch, next turn you can play Dralnu and the turn after you can tap him to flash it back for five total turns. You can also play him as a storm commander (eg google Bryant's Pile of Broken) but that seems also kinda boring.
I think you could make a fun Dralnu deck if you play a bunch of the Spellshaper cards and madness cards. Tapping spellshapers to discard madness cards and then flashing them back with Dralnu seems pretty fun. But I'm not sure how you win, other than Exsanguinating the table.
The Crucible of Worlds combo with Strip Mine doesn't really work outside green. You'd need to bribery Azusa to make it work in Jhoira. Because without the ability to play extra lands, all you do is screw you and another player out of land drops. Then a third player wins the game. Its part of that whole "land destruction isn't the problem, bad players using land destruction is the problem". So in Jhoira, I use it to combo with cards like cycle lands, Tolaria West and fetches to make sure I hit all my land drops. Also with draw spells that discard.
I have a guide for Jhoira in my signature. Its going to be more competitive than you're after, but I have put a lot of effort into it, and maybe reading it would give you some card ideas.
Mana base
I like your mana base, its got a good balance between basics and nonbasics, so even if you are only playing low powerlevel games, it means you aren't blown out by cards like Ruination. But there are some other good nonbasics to consider.
Desolate Lighthouse is good in Jhoira decks that don't try and explode in turn 1-2. It gives you some midgame filtering. And you can keep your mana open to counter, suspend or filter.
Cascade Bluffs/Temple of Epiphany are two more duals if you want. But if you don't have its not a big deal. Also you spelt Sulfur Falls wrong.
Crucible of Worlds works with your two search lands, tect edge and strip mine. You don't need it with this list, but if you make some changes, add more "draw sevens" etc etc, just think about it.Artifacts Tezzeret the Seeker. You play a bunch of artifacts, some of them are silver bullets. Tezzeret gives you a way to search up relevant ones like Torpor Orb, or graveyard hate.
Trinket Mage/Treasure Mage. Could be good. Fetch your big guys like Duplicant and Steel Hellkite when you need them.Creatures Diluvian Primordial. You're playing Molten Primordial, just a thought. I'm not sure if its "too powerful". Actually I'm not sure how powerful is "too powerful". I really like Akroma for blue players, you could consider that? Or other big dumb beaters like Inkwell Leviathan.
Bogardan Hellkite. Not this card exactly, but you have cards like Inferno Titan and you could easily play a few more "hit people for a bunch" dudes. They combo with your Gratuitous Violence for a big bunch of noninfinite damage.Time counters Fury Charm. You really should play this. Its so versatile. I'd be playing it before Clockspinning that's for sure.
Rift Elemental. I see people suggest Jhoira's Timebug all the time, but I'd play this guy first. He's not free like Timebug, but he can hit for 5+ easily, and he's balanced in my opinion.Board wipes
I don't know what your games are like, so maybe you need some better board wipes? For creatures that need to die, not be bounced or for creatures with haste.
Blasphemous Act. 13 damage to all creatures for R. I also like Inferno in casual decks.
Evacuation. Instant speed. It works well with your counterspells and Jhoira so you can leave mana up.Card draw Thirst for Knowledge. Pitch artifacts that you don't want. You've got a few.
Reforge the Soul. Cheap Wheel of Fortune number 2 if you wanted to play more.
Preordain. The problem with Brainstorm and Halimar Depths in your deck is that you don't have all the fetches. So you're going to have dead cards and can't shuffle. So I'd give some thought as to wether Brainstorm is better than Preordain (or not exactly Preordain, but something like that).
I built an all instant and flash creatures Talrand deck for my girlfriend to teach her things like the value of playing at the end of turn when you have the maximum information. The deck doesn't win much, mainly cause there aren't very many good Instants that win the game in blue. You basically just make a bunch of drakes and beat face. But without non-instant cards like Coat of Arms, its not a fast clock.
Its viable and its funny. I threw together the whole thing for under $30, including Zendikar islands and Dragonshield sleeves. But its a gimmick deck, and like all gimmick decks, you get blown out by some really specific piece of tech. So for instants, cards like Dosan the Falling Leaf.
Seems pretty solid. How does this deck fare in 1v1? Or againest something like removal.dec?
I don't play 1v1. I've done it a couple times with a friend's Kaalia deck, and it was hilariously fast. If I was I would play a lot more Electrolyze and Counterspell variants. There are some fun ones, like Jilt. I have nothing against it, I just don't see the point of 1v1 commander. There are plenty of other formats that are 1v1. Even 2HG is kind of 1v1. I like EDH multiplayer because politics
Against removal.dec, you can either rush an early Jhoira when you'll need to untap to suspend, or if you're scared of removal, cast Jhoira on 5 mana and suspend immediately. Depending on what kind of removal they are, and what you suspend, sometimes you just won't care what they are doing. For example, if you play against a Mogis, God of Slaughter deck that has land destruction, creature hate and artifact hate, and you get Omniscience suspended, you can sometimes just not care. But if you get Krosan Grip'd, that will blow you out.
Cards that are good versus removal decks are Leyline of Anticipation (play at end of turn) and Crucible of Worlds (gives you some prot against land hate) and Sneak Attack (sneak attack Eldrazi/Blightsteel, send them to the stone ages)
as a competitive deck, what turn(s) do you usually win by?
Not as fast as some other combo decks, like an Arcum deck that can win by turn 3. We have a guy who used to play an Arcum deck but he stopped because everyone adapted and plays low cost spot removal, and a well timed Nature's Claim can blow you out. And he'd have to go so all in that it would leave him neutered. And we have another guy who plays a Black White Ad Nauseam deck, but that deck is a lot more defensive now and so it doesn't go off as fast.
You can occasionally luck out an early Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite hand and just win on the spot. But if you keep that sort of hand you can get blown out easily by a Torpor Orb or Swords to Plowshares.
Probably the most consistently you can get an early win by is turn 6 (5-7ish), by having things suspended and hardcasting Obliterate. How fast you can win does depend on what you first suspend. If you suspend Omniscience and hardcast Obliterate, then you can usually dig and get a draw 7 into draw 7 going. Then if you get something like a Consecrated Sphinx into Time Spiral you draw your deck and win.
It does depend heavily on what your opponents are playing. I had a game recently where I was playing against a Borborygmos Enraged who had a godhand. Ramped, cast Wildfire, rebuilt with Oracle of Mul Daya. I was on three mana, and didn't cast Jhoira so I could Hinder his commander. But he saw it coming and just didn't cast Borb. So I left three mana up and he just outvalued me over the next couple turns, then killed the table.
If you play against a monoblue player, like Azami (we've got two Azami players), then you usually have to try and wait them out. Get some sort of value engine online. Unless you can get Leyline of Anticipation, then if they ever tap out you can usually get them with something. Which means if they never fully tap out, you just outvalue them. Akroma, Angel of Fury is in here for exactly this reason, dealing with monoblue players that spend the whole game with a hand full of counterspells, eyeing up your board.
Point is, it is hard to say. If you go too early, you'll spend too many resources.
You're right, and he runs that in a Sharuum the Hegemon artifact deck. Never thought about Stony Silence though... I'll have to keep that one in mind. The combo does back fire every now and then, but so far, others that we play with haven't had those answers, it's good to keep in mind though, thanks
Also the Fated Return thing is a great idea, I'll have to tell him about that (regrets it already)
Because if you're against a casual beats deck, and you bring back an indestructible Palisade Giant. Do you just put your hand down, look at them and say "Do you have ANY cards that deal with this?" I feel like that's what you do
You should run Obstinate Familiar. It will randomly prevent you from losing to Nekusar players or getting stroked out. You can also just win by skipping draws until the other person decks themselves if you have some sort of protection like Solitary Confinement running .
Obstinate Familiar would mean having to play Red. And I'm pretty sure you can beat most Nekusar decks with lifegain and well-timed enchantment removal. For example, playing Purity. And if you were worried about getting stroked out, hexproof is a far better answer because it protects you against a whole range of threats. For example Seht's Tiger or Dawn Charm.
But basically, its the fact that you can't play it in Karador and Karador seems like the best commander for this.
Have you tried Darksteel Forge + Leonin Abunas + Mycosynth Lattice + Platinum Emperion or Palisade Giant? With all the recursion effects and stuff you're going to have, the only way to get around that combo would be Hallowed Burial. And there are more than enough tutors out there to search them back from your library once someone gets a burial off. My husband does this to me frequently in our 1v1 matches and it's a pain to try to figure out a way around, but it is a fun challenge.
The problem with Platinum Emperion is that you can't play lifegain. That's the problem I've run into in every EDH deck where I've wanted Platinum Emperion, its just better to be hexproof/shroud and have a huge lifepool. Palisade Giant is good though. You could Fated Return it as a trick
That is a pretty sweet little combo though. But you'd only play Darksteel if you were playing a lot of artifacts. And I only have four, Crucible of Worlds, Platinum Angel, Solemn Simulacrum and Skullclamp. CatParty and Wildfire393 were talking about enchantments, and I think its better to go the enchantment route than artifacts in Junk colors.
You can beat it with Stony Silence where no one can tap for mana again, or Merciless Eviction to exile all permanents or Hellkite Tyrant to steal all your permanents. Actually, turning all permanents into artifacts seems like it could backfire badly.
Of note, there is a way to "permanently" deny someone their Commander (though Karn restarting the game would still give it back to them):
If a creature phases out with auras or equipment attached to them, those cards phase out with that creature, and will only phase in when that creature phases back in. This is known as phasing "indirectly".
If a creature token phases out, it immediately ceases to exist.
If a card is phased out indirectly while attached to a creature token, it will never phase back in, because the card it is attached to will never phase back in.
So all we need to do is somehow turn their general into an equipment, attach it to a token, and then phase that token out!
The easiest way to do this is: Soul Sculptor to make the general no longer a creature Liquimetal Coating to make the general an artifact Bludgeon Brawl makes the general an equipment Mimic Vat or Soul Foundry imprints Vulshok Battlemaster. Activate to create a token, which will attach that equipment to the token Battlemaster
Swing. Teferi's Vale triggers at the end of combat and phases the token out.
As far as "unkillability" goes, the most succinct combination of cards I've seen is this:
Privileged Position and Greater Auramancy to make everything untargetable Solitary Confinement keeps you from taking damage or being targeted. Gibbering Descent lets you skip your upkeep so you never sac the Confinement. [c] Blood Moon turns off all nonbasic lands Dovescape turns any opposing spell into Birds, stopping them from being able to use Merciless Eviction or similar to clear your field Humility prevents any creature-based effects from wiping your field
Your opponents are still free to do things, but nothing they do will have any real value on you, because noncreatures are reduced to birds and creatures are humbled (neither of which can damage you), and lands are all basic.
Cycling effects can work, but Resounding Wave can't target your stuff, and Decree of Pain finds no creatures to get rid of.
Uncounterable effects work, but Abrupt Decay can't target your stuff, and Obliterate can't destroy enchantments
There's nothing with Forecast, Channel, Suspend Triggers, or other effects that can kill you
Wow that is legit impressive. I've had someone do most of that in a game before. But I beat it with Boseiju, Who Shelters All casting Apocalypse in my Jhoira deck. If they'd had Blood Moon, I couldn't have done that.
The problem with all the of the "permanently get rid of Commander" examples is that Karn is the silver bullet. The exception being if your opponent is allowed infinite setup and for example, then they've got like infinite Meddling Mages naming every card in magic, and a Stabilizer so you couldn't cycle Decree, and an X so you couldn't Y and etc etc.
So in your example you could counter it by having stuff in play already. Like Tranquil Grove. But there's no point to that conversation because it continues backwards endless. "Well then I remove your Grove before I go for it", "Well I counter your removal" etc etc. And your deck would have to be 5 color playing Blood Moon in it which hurts you the most. And playing Blood Moon hurts lands which makes you that guy.
So its pretty cool and its a fun thought experiment, but its not quite what I'm after. Because if you're allowed infinite setup, then its easier to exile every card they have, and play Platinum Angel and Abyssal Persecutor. Technically I'm unkillable but that's not the point
i pulled off a sort of unkillable board state once. its really weird, but its an infinite loop, so the game technically tied (though we all agreed that i won infinitely).
i donated lich's mirror to my last opponent, cast false cure, then killed him via combat damage. he then shuffles up, but since lich's mirror is mine, it doesn't get shuffled off, and starts in his battlefield. but as his life resets, the gain 20 life actually makes him lose 40 life, meaning he loses again, lich's mirror triggers again, and so on and so forth. that way, you can still be in the game, but your commander would be safe. in the most convoluted way possible.
i dont think its actually ever possible to have a 100% safe commander. its gonna die/tucked/exiled at some point if it is affecting the game in some meaningful way.
That's not unkillable though, that's an game ending infinite loop. Like having Enchanted Evening in play and playing Ajani's Chosen with no one having an answer. I mean resiliency.
Dying and exile both mean you can recast him. And tucked you can tutor for him.
For example, if they Worst Fears you and choose to leave your commander in exile you can use cards like Riftsweeper to get it back.
Obviously you can't make a total 100% immune deck. Someone could mill you out and hit you with Identity Crisis. You still have to draw and play stuff when its relevant, but you can build a deck and put these sort of answers in.
Whats so good about the two Teysa? Is it cause they give you a repeatable targeted creature exile?
And you definitely can't use Braids against casual players. They are ok with you hitting their hands, creatures whatever. But if you hit lands you are the bad guy. And you can't play cards like Acidic Slime because if you get a Karmic Guide loop and someone points out that you could destroy all their lands, but you say "I don't want to" then you're being that guy.
I've been playing with some guys who have some seriously casual decks. And they're the kind that like 2+ hour long political games. Battlecruiser, big creatures, not much removal, etc etc.
I was talking to them about the idea of "Can you ever permanently get rid of someone's commander?" assuming the deck pilot didn't make a mistake. Just because its a fun topic and I know the answer.
What happens if I Hinder your commander to the bottom, can you get him back? Yes with cards like Chord of Calling.
Ok, what if I Hinder your commander into your library and then cast Praetor's Grasp, keeping him in exile forever. Yes because of rule 903.13;
If a card is put into the exile zone face down from anywhere, and a player is allowed to look at that card in exile, the player must immediately do so. If it’s a commander owned by another player, the player that looked at it turns it face up and puts it into the command zone.
Ok, but what if no one can look at it, such as Hinder it to the top, activate Pyxis of Pandemonium and then destroy my Pyxis? Is it gone forever? Well, it would be... but Karn Liberated can restart the game.
Anyway, this is all got my thinking. I wanted to build an inoffensive "unkillable" deck. And I wanted to ask for ideas on things that would kill me and answers. I picked Karador, Ghost Chieftain because he seemed like the best with the inbuilt recursion. Also in casual games being able to recur Spore Frog and Kami of False Hope seems good.
A couple of points
I realise that the only way to become truly unkillable is to lockdown your opponents. Destroy all their lands, counterspell lock them etc etc. That's not what I want. Think of it like, your deck is almost a challenge to opponents. Build better decks to beat me.
Edric, Spymaster of Trest doesn't want combos. Jhoira of the Ghitu doesn't run infinite combos although she does combo Obliterate and Eldrazi. Azusa, Lost but Seeking is usually faster just by ramping into threats but I've never seen Azusa combo outside of Crucible + Strip Mine and squirrel's nest + earth craft. Kaalia of the Vast might run combos but is usually better off with big creatures and MLD. Gaddock Teeg usually runs a combo as a win con. At least the ones I've seen.
Jhoira does have infinite combos. Extra turns are really good with her, and if you find a way to recur them like Archaeomancer and Riptide Laboratory you can take infinite turns. I also play Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite/Deceiver in my Jhoira.
You do need them to be competitive. If you want to have a competitive deck without mass land destruction than you are going to have a better time adding green and playing RUG colors. A "RUG ramp into fatties" deck such as Riku of Two Reflections or Maelstrom Wanderer is going to get them out faster than Jhoira and it will have lands in play. The mass land destruction in Jhoira decks is to slow your opponents down, and your friends don't like being slowed down.
You can house ban mass land destruction, and more power to you guys for making EDH want you want. But you'll be casual, not competitive.
Full disclosure, I don't play Standard. So if I miss anything, that's why.
You can build a reasonable Jhoira deck using only cards in Standard. The problem comes when you say "How do I win?" If you don't go for some sort of combo, then you are just trying to beat people to death. The best beaters (Eldrazi, Blightsteel or even just Inferno Titan) are all out of Standard. You could try and kill people with creatures like Tromokratis, but then you might just think, I should be playing Surrak and have access to all the green creatures like Hydra Broodmaster.
I would go out and get a copy of Obliterate or Decree of Annihilation before I started building Jhoira.
You can also make a fairly decent dragon tribal Jhoira using a lot of the dragons in Standard.
I'm going to include cards that have just rotated out of standard with Khan. I think if you do some binder hunting then you can snap up a bunch of these now that they are dropping in price.
> Beaters
Stormtide Leviathan - This is your bread-and-butter "budget beater". It does everything you want. It beats, and it slows the game down to your budget pace. And it fixes your mana.
Utvara Hellkite - This is about the fastest "budget" clock you have that just rotated out of standard and so you might get one for cheap.
Spawn of Thraxes/Scourge of Fleets - If you play an almost all basics land base, you should consider these. They don't combo with MLD. They don't kill people quickly. But they are dollar rares that you might have, that don't have irrelevant abilities.
Arbiter of the Ideal - Value card. 4 damage is not much of a clock, which might be helpful so that people don't kill it. Generally though, cards like Future Sight are better for this.
Master of Predicaments - Maybe this works. Especially when people don't know your deck. You can also use it politically.
Soul of Shandalar - The "3RR: 3 to player and 3 to dude" is not irrelevant." It really is only 6 power on the table, but at least its got a mana sink.
Soul of New Phyrexia - Indestructible is super relevant versus some player's decks. Its not Avacyn, cause you have to keep mana open (that's the reason Bribery is better than this btw, just steal an Avacyn).
Diluvian Primordial/Molten Primordial - Value beaters who let you steal other people's things. Theft is always a good tactic when on a budget.
> Clone and Theft
Clever Impersonator - This card is just bonkers. And if you can't afford money cards, just clone other peoples stuff.
Hellkite Tyrant - You'll never pull the wincon off, but at least you can steal some good artifacts. Remember that you gain control of them forever, not just until Hellkite Tyrant leaves play.
Felhide Spiritbinder - Maybe. Its worth considering.
Stolen Identity - Again, if you can't afford money cards, try cloning them. Unfortunately, this gets outclassed by cards like Phyrexian Metamorph.
Zealous Conscripts - Combos with Kiki-Jiki but he's gotten really expensive lately because of Modern. Still, stealing a big beater and then hitting that player with it works. Especially if you play some sort of sac outlet. Eg, Greater Gargadon style deck, with Dominus of Fealty, Insurrection etc etc.
> Mana
Springleaf Drum - You can tap Jhoira for mana with this since you are rarely going to be attacking with her. Its really only going to be good if you play a lot of Inspired dudes that are in Standard, "No good attacks, pass turn. End of your turn, tap my dude"
Chromatic Lantern - I'd try and pick one of these up. It lets you play a little bit more greedy on your mana base.
Izzet Cluestone - Its a common. If you need to make it to 99 and have a one...
> Draw
Treasure Cruise - If you're playing a slower long game, then this is going to just be "U: Draw three". Maybe it's a nonbo if you are playing cards like Snapcaster Mage, but you said standard.
Keranos, God of Storms - Just value. Slow though.
Mercurial Chemister - This guy is good in games that slow right down. As soon as you get more than two activations of his "U: Draw 2" then you are on route to value town. It is really going to depend on how fast the games you play are. And I'd probably only include him if you had one, I wouldn't be looking for him.
> Removal
Cyclonic Rift - This card is blantantly unfair. You should play it.
Curse of the Swine - Really depends on what you are up against. If you playing against decks where "exile" is important then play this. In most cases though cards like Blasphemous Act are better.
Vandalblast - Really shines in games where people have mana rocks and greedy artifacts.
Rapid Hybridization - One mana answer to a lot of problem generals. There are better answers like Hinder, but this is a common.
> Combo
Howl of the Horde - If you end up getting your hands on a card like Time Warp, I'd consider this. Its a good cheap dollar rare addition, and it does some unfair things. But I would really look at the number of instants/sorceries you are playing before I added it.
Firemind's Foresight - There are a lot of combos with this card. Remember that it is only instants though. The "instant win" is Reiterate, Reset and Lightning Bolt to win on next opponent's upkeep. But you can get plenty of value of this regardless, especially if you get a copy of Mystical Tutor. For example, you could easily cast it end of turn for a Mystical Tutor, Increasing Vengeance and any three CMC instant, and then Mystical Tutor for Temporal Mastery, copying it a bunch with Increasing Vegeance. But you only play it if you have the cards to support it.
Enter the Infinite/Omniscience - If you can pick up a copy of both of these, you can play them. Just be warned that once people catch on, they will try and deck you.
> Equipment
Chariot of Victory - You really should be playing Lightning Greaves because it protects Jhoira and it enables your late game fatties to come crashing in on the turn you play them. However, its entirely possible that this card is good in a budget Jhoira deck. Especially if you are trying to make it up to 99. It gives you first strike and trample, which means that your big 6/6 dudes aren't getting chumped. But other than that, it doesn't do much, and its the same CMC as Jhoira which is awkward. So its worth a consider and might be an early addition and early replacement.
That's a good starting point. I'd be looking at building up to 99 with any of these cards, and then doing some trading for some of the big hitters from previous sets.
You can bounce him with cards like Erratic Portal. Or you can just use That Which Was Taken. Either option isn't great though cause of the total cost.
Sadly a lot of the monowhite commanders are great for a board wiping (like Mageta, Teroh or even Elesh Norn), but the restriction to only white really hurts too much. So if you want to board wipe a lot, you are better off playing something like Zurgo Helmsmasher and playing all the board wipes in the deck. But that's not what you want.
I was looking through gatherer for ways to make it fun. It seems like you could just jam every Time Warp and combo win that way, but that seems kinda boring. For example, play Time Stretch, next turn you can play Dralnu and the turn after you can tap him to flash it back for five total turns. You can also play him as a storm commander (eg google Bryant's Pile of Broken) but that seems also kinda boring.
I think you could make a fun Dralnu deck if you play a bunch of the Spellshaper cards and madness cards. Tapping spellshapers to discard madness cards and then flashing them back with Dralnu seems pretty fun. But I'm not sure how you win, other than Exsanguinating the table.
Also, I think Thousand-Year Elixir would be a good card in Dralnu.
There's Dragon Mage for card draw and a big dumb beater. And of course there is also Keranos, God of Storms.
I have a guide for Jhoira in my signature. Its going to be more competitive than you're after, but I have put a lot of effort into it, and maybe reading it would give you some card ideas.
I like your mana base, its got a good balance between basics and nonbasics, so even if you are only playing low powerlevel games, it means you aren't blown out by cards like Ruination. But there are some other good nonbasics to consider.
Desolate Lighthouse is good in Jhoira decks that don't try and explode in turn 1-2. It gives you some midgame filtering. And you can keep your mana open to counter, suspend or filter.
Cascade Bluffs/Temple of Epiphany are two more duals if you want. But if you don't have its not a big deal. Also you spelt Sulfur Falls wrong.
Forgotten Cave/Smoldering Crater/Lonely Sandbar/Remote Isle. I'm a huge fan of these in Jhoira because you sometimes stall out and its nice to just filter.
Crucible of Worlds works with your two search lands, tect edge and strip mine. You don't need it with this list, but if you make some changes, add more "draw sevens" etc etc, just think about it.
Artifacts
Tezzeret the Seeker. You play a bunch of artifacts, some of them are silver bullets. Tezzeret gives you a way to search up relevant ones like Torpor Orb, or graveyard hate.
Relic of Progenitus/Scrabbling Claws. Dunno what your games are like, but you might need graveyard hate?
Trinket Mage/Treasure Mage. Could be good. Fetch your big guys like Duplicant and Steel Hellkite when you need them.
Creatures
Diluvian Primordial. You're playing Molten Primordial, just a thought. I'm not sure if its "too powerful". Actually I'm not sure how powerful is "too powerful". I really like Akroma for blue players, you could consider that? Or other big dumb beaters like Inkwell Leviathan.
Bogardan Hellkite. Not this card exactly, but you have cards like Inferno Titan and you could easily play a few more "hit people for a bunch" dudes. They combo with your Gratuitous Violence for a big bunch of noninfinite damage.
Time counters
Fury Charm. You really should play this. Its so versatile. I'd be playing it before Clockspinning that's for sure.
Rift Elemental. I see people suggest Jhoira's Timebug all the time, but I'd play this guy first. He's not free like Timebug, but he can hit for 5+ easily, and he's balanced in my opinion.
Board wipes
I don't know what your games are like, so maybe you need some better board wipes? For creatures that need to die, not be bounced or for creatures with haste.
Blasphemous Act. 13 damage to all creatures for R. I also like Inferno in casual decks.
Evacuation. Instant speed. It works well with your counterspells and Jhoira so you can leave mana up.
Card draw
Thirst for Knowledge. Pitch artifacts that you don't want. You've got a few.
Reforge the Soul. Cheap Wheel of Fortune number 2 if you wanted to play more.
Blue Sun's Zenith/Stroke of Genius/Opportunity/Thoughtflare/Overwhelming Intellect. Big dumb draw spells if you find that cards like Borrowing 100,000 arrows isn't working out for you.
Preordain. The problem with Brainstorm and Halimar Depths in your deck is that you don't have all the fetches. So you're going to have dead cards and can't shuffle. So I'd give some thought as to wether Brainstorm is better than Preordain (or not exactly Preordain, but something like that).
Its viable and its funny. I threw together the whole thing for under $30, including Zendikar islands and Dragonshield sleeves. But its a gimmick deck, and like all gimmick decks, you get blown out by some really specific piece of tech. So for instants, cards like Dosan the Falling Leaf.
I don't play 1v1. I've done it a couple times with a friend's Kaalia deck, and it was hilariously fast. If I was I would play a lot more Electrolyze and Counterspell variants. There are some fun ones, like Jilt. I have nothing against it, I just don't see the point of 1v1 commander. There are plenty of other formats that are 1v1. Even 2HG is kind of 1v1. I like EDH multiplayer because politics
Against removal.dec, you can either rush an early Jhoira when you'll need to untap to suspend, or if you're scared of removal, cast Jhoira on 5 mana and suspend immediately. Depending on what kind of removal they are, and what you suspend, sometimes you just won't care what they are doing. For example, if you play against a Mogis, God of Slaughter deck that has land destruction, creature hate and artifact hate, and you get Omniscience suspended, you can sometimes just not care. But if you get Krosan Grip'd, that will blow you out.
Cards that are good versus removal decks are Leyline of Anticipation (play at end of turn) and Crucible of Worlds (gives you some prot against land hate) and Sneak Attack (sneak attack Eldrazi/Blightsteel, send them to the stone ages)
Not as fast as some other combo decks, like an Arcum deck that can win by turn 3. We have a guy who used to play an Arcum deck but he stopped because everyone adapted and plays low cost spot removal, and a well timed Nature's Claim can blow you out. And he'd have to go so all in that it would leave him neutered. And we have another guy who plays a Black White Ad Nauseam deck, but that deck is a lot more defensive now and so it doesn't go off as fast.
You can occasionally luck out an early Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite hand and just win on the spot. But if you keep that sort of hand you can get blown out easily by a Torpor Orb or Swords to Plowshares.
Probably the most consistently you can get an early win by is turn 6 (5-7ish), by having things suspended and hardcasting Obliterate. How fast you can win does depend on what you first suspend. If you suspend Omniscience and hardcast Obliterate, then you can usually dig and get a draw 7 into draw 7 going. Then if you get something like a Consecrated Sphinx into Time Spiral you draw your deck and win.
It does depend heavily on what your opponents are playing. I had a game recently where I was playing against a Borborygmos Enraged who had a godhand. Ramped, cast Wildfire, rebuilt with Oracle of Mul Daya. I was on three mana, and didn't cast Jhoira so I could Hinder his commander. But he saw it coming and just didn't cast Borb. So I left three mana up and he just outvalued me over the next couple turns, then killed the table.
If you play against a monoblue player, like Azami (we've got two Azami players), then you usually have to try and wait them out. Get some sort of value engine online. Unless you can get Leyline of Anticipation, then if they ever tap out you can usually get them with something. Which means if they never fully tap out, you just outvalue them. Akroma, Angel of Fury is in here for exactly this reason, dealing with monoblue players that spend the whole game with a hand full of counterspells, eyeing up your board.
Point is, it is hard to say. If you go too early, you'll spend too many resources.
Because if you're against a casual beats deck, and you bring back an indestructible Palisade Giant. Do you just put your hand down, look at them and say "Do you have ANY cards that deal with this?" I feel like that's what you do
Obstinate Familiar would mean having to play Red. And I'm pretty sure you can beat most Nekusar decks with lifegain and well-timed enchantment removal. For example, playing Purity. And if you were worried about getting stroked out, hexproof is a far better answer because it protects you against a whole range of threats. For example Seht's Tiger or Dawn Charm.
But basically, its the fact that you can't play it in Karador and Karador seems like the best commander for this.
The problem with Platinum Emperion is that you can't play lifegain. That's the problem I've run into in every EDH deck where I've wanted Platinum Emperion, its just better to be hexproof/shroud and have a huge lifepool. Palisade Giant is good though. You could Fated Return it as a trick
That is a pretty sweet little combo though. But you'd only play Darksteel if you were playing a lot of artifacts. And I only have four, Crucible of Worlds, Platinum Angel, Solemn Simulacrum and Skullclamp. CatParty and Wildfire393 were talking about enchantments, and I think its better to go the enchantment route than artifacts in Junk colors.
You can beat it with Stony Silence where no one can tap for mana again, or Merciless Eviction to exile all permanents or Hellkite Tyrant to steal all your permanents. Actually, turning all permanents into artifacts seems like it could backfire badly.
Wow that is legit impressive. I've had someone do most of that in a game before. But I beat it with Boseiju, Who Shelters All casting Apocalypse in my Jhoira deck. If they'd had Blood Moon, I couldn't have done that.
The problem with all the of the "permanently get rid of Commander" examples is that Karn is the silver bullet. The exception being if your opponent is allowed infinite setup and for example, then they've got like infinite Meddling Mages naming every card in magic, and a Stabilizer so you couldn't cycle Decree, and an X so you couldn't Y and etc etc.
So in your example you could counter it by having stuff in play already. Like Tranquil Grove. But there's no point to that conversation because it continues backwards endless. "Well then I remove your Grove before I go for it", "Well I counter your removal" etc etc. And your deck would have to be 5 color playing Blood Moon in it which hurts you the most. And playing Blood Moon hurts lands which makes you that guy.
So its pretty cool and its a fun thought experiment, but its not quite what I'm after. Because if you're allowed infinite setup, then its easier to exile every card they have, and play Platinum Angel and Abyssal Persecutor. Technically I'm unkillable but that's not the point
That's not unkillable though, that's an game ending infinite loop. Like having Enchanted Evening in play and playing Ajani's Chosen with no one having an answer. I mean resiliency.
Dying and exile both mean you can recast him. And tucked you can tutor for him.
For example, if they Worst Fears you and choose to leave your commander in exile you can use cards like Riftsweeper to get it back.
Obviously you can't make a total 100% immune deck. Someone could mill you out and hit you with Identity Crisis. You still have to draw and play stuff when its relevant, but you can build a deck and put these sort of answers in.
For Karador though, where possible the creature versions though right?
So Dread instead of No Mercy. And Archetype of Endurance before you add Privileged Position right (though I have both so I'll probably use both).
Although, I could probably play an entire enchantment suite, like Greater Auramancy and play the support cards like Replenish.
Ophiomancer is a good one, I forgot about it because I never bought any of the precons. It should go well with cards like Viscera Seer, Butcher of Malakir, Sadistic Hypnotist, Aura Shards. And its a rattlesnake.
Whats so good about the two Teysa? Is it cause they give you a repeatable targeted creature exile?
And you definitely can't use Braids against casual players. They are ok with you hitting their hands, creatures whatever. But if you hit lands you are the bad guy. And you can't play cards like Acidic Slime because if you get a Karmic Guide loop and someone points out that you could destroy all their lands, but you say "I don't want to" then you're being that guy.
I was talking to them about the idea of "Can you ever permanently get rid of someone's commander?" assuming the deck pilot didn't make a mistake. Just because its a fun topic and I know the answer.
What happens if I Hinder your commander to the bottom, can you get him back? Yes with cards like Chord of Calling.
Ok, what if I Hinder your commander into your library and then cast Praetor's Grasp, keeping him in exile forever. Yes because of rule 903.13; Ok, but what if no one can look at it, such as Hinder it to the top, activate Pyxis of Pandemonium and then destroy my Pyxis? Is it gone forever? Well, it would be... but Karn Liberated can restart the game.
Anyway, this is all got my thinking. I wanted to build an inoffensive "unkillable" deck. And I wanted to ask for ideas on things that would kill me and answers. I picked Karador, Ghost Chieftain because he seemed like the best with the inbuilt recursion. Also in casual games being able to recur Spore Frog and Kami of False Hope seems good.
A couple of points
- I realise that the only way to become truly unkillable is to lockdown your opponents. Destroy all their lands, counterspell lock them etc etc. That's not what I want. Think of it like, your deck is almost a challenge to opponents. Build better decks to beat me.
- I also realize that you can get 90% of the way to unkillable with Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Archetype of Endurance and Platinum Angel in play. But you still can lose to cards like Final Judgment or just plain old Cyclonic Rift. And Platinum Angel should be an insurance policy, you don't want to rely on it.
- Not making people angry is important. So cards like Deathgreeter are better than Blood Artist despite most EDH player's addiction to value.
Here's where I've ended up (trying to get creatures where possible)Attacking - Blazing Archon, Spore Frog, Kami of False Hope, plus just life gain
Prot. to me - Aegis of the Gods, Seht's Tiger
Mill - Purity, Krosan Reclamation, Loaming Shaman, Fated Return (on Platinum Angel)
Exile - Riftsweeper, Pull from Eternity
Land D - Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds
Board wipes - Planar Cleansing, Austere Command, Bane of Progress
And after that round it out with ramp, lifegain, Sun Titan package, Ranger of Eos package, Reveillark/Karmic Guide/Saffi Eriksdotter and fun casual cards like Abyssal Persecutor and Little Girl.
TL;DR: Building deck to survive in long casual games. What cards help you survive in WGB?
Jhoira does have infinite combos. Extra turns are really good with her, and if you find a way to recur them like Archaeomancer and Riptide Laboratory you can take infinite turns. I also play Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite/Deceiver in my Jhoira.
You can house ban mass land destruction, and more power to you guys for making EDH want you want. But you'll be casual, not competitive.