"Salvation will not be granted by the Lunarch Council. It must be earned--at the edge of a sword, if necessary."
Welcome to my primer on semi-competitive Thalia, Heretic Cathar EDH! As the title suggests, this is my attempt at exporting Legacy Death & Taxes to the EDH/Commander format. While there are plenty of familiar faces from the Legacy deck, this list is more an attempt at preserving the "spirit" of Legacy D&T, rather than trying to make some cards (like Rishadan Port) viable in a format where they simply aren't as useful.
Table of Contents
Why you should or shouldn't play this
Alternate commanders
The List
Strategy and Card Breakdown
Strategy
Primary Cards
Maybeboard/"Benched" cards
Weaknesses
Personal Aside
Part I: Why you should or shouldn't play this
You should play Thalia if...
You've played Legacy D&T before and enjoyed it.
You enjoy the hatebear and/or land destruction strategy
Your meta is ok with this kind of strategy, or you just don't care.
You like mono-white but don't want to play "equipment beatdown" or Soldier/Human/Angel tribal.
You enjoy close, intense games where you need to keep thinking one step ahead of your opponent.
You probably shouldn't play Thalia if...
You dislike land destruction or "Winter Orb" effects.
You dislike making plays that will make other players hate you.
The first alternative that most players will look to, the original Thalia does offer a cheaper mana cost and a tax that most players associate with D&T. Paying 1 more is, after all, often brutal in formats like Legacy where costs are kept as low as possible in order to maximize efficiency each turn. However, in EDH, I've found that this kind of tax just isn't as potent. Paying 1 for Mana Crypt or 2 for Sol Ring sucks, but at most it sets your opponent off by a turn. One turn in EDH, unlike Legacy, isn't a big enough deal, and with all the rocks, mana dorks and creature-based ramp in the format, it's hard to find any deck that will seize up just because their spells cost 1 more.
By far the most powerful hatebear in EDH, Teeg shuts down most things that are scary for a hatebear deck: boardwipes, combo pieces, finisher spells and game-ending enchantments like Humility. The problem with Teeg for me is this, however: first, as this is an attempt at translating Legacy D&T (traditionally WW, though the user SwordstoTimeshares is known for running a successful GW version), Teeg would skew this list into something else, like Modern's GW Hatebears; second, Teeg lacks immediate presence. What I mean by this latter statement is that Teeg shuts down the possible cards an opponent can play, and while those he shuts down are undoubtedly the most powerful, most decks will still be packing targeted removal and creatures anyway. Thalia, Heretic Cathar, by contrast, hits nonbasics (whether they are absurd mana producers like Cabal Coffers or screwing over fetchlands) which means that, as soon as she lands, she's interacting in some way.
Much of what I've said about the previous two applies to GAAIV. The UW color identity ruins the D&T theme and his tax, while good since you can get a double-reduction on two-colored spells, isn't as oppressive as it could be. GAAIV is still a really solid choice, however, simply because you get the blue versions of powerful white enchantments in Propaganda and Arcane Laboratory, not to mention more card draw and some counter magic.
Anyone who remembers me from the D&T thread will know how much I love this guy. In Legacy D&T he was the out, or at least such a massive threat that opponents killed him on sight. However, the lack of Karakas (for obvious reasons) in this format, along with the numerous ways to cheese his ability through untap effects, flickers and bounces means that, ultimately, any competitive Mangara list will divide itself into one of two categories: either a Death & Taxes list that happens to have a commander you might summon once or twice, or a list that's more akin to Stax than D&T, relying more on artifacts and enchantments than creatures.
Like Magara, Hokori ends up playing more like Stax than D&T, and I think he draws far more hate than Thalia, who has a more deceptive power level.
There are, of course, other "hatebearish" commanders, but they are too specific in their effect to really earn their spot in the big chair, such as Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Kataki, War's Wage.
The Death & Taxes strategy, and therefore this deck's strategy, is to break your opponents' decks using disruptive creatures and spells, forcing them to "play fair." "Playing fair," within the context of D&T, means that players should only play basic lands, should pay for their creatures at their full cost using these lands and that they cannot recycle their cards to generate more value than any other player. Naturally, a Craterhoof Behemoth is much more efficient and powerful if it's played off an Eldritch Evolution or resurrected by Unburial Rites. Of course a Mizzix deck is going to generate insane value by playing a bunch of spells in a turn and cast Mind's Desire with Storm at 15. The plan with Thalia is to look at these degenerate plays and say "no more."
Though never quite powerful enough for Legacy (except for a matchup like Storm), effects which limit the number of spells per turn are actually very strong in EDH.
Generally, threat assessment is key with a deck like this. You have very few tutors or card draw, and in a game you need to both establish your own board state while also stopping the opponent's--whether it is by small gains or absolute game grinders like Winter Orb. Thalia is usually key to slowing down your opponent; playing her early is therefore crucial. Her abilities are deceptively powerful: the creatures and nonbasics entering tapped is great at generating Tempo, a complicated concept in Magic that more or less translates to a measure of how more advanced your board is compared to the other players'. By hindering fetch lands, preventing early plays (due to duals or Command Towers coming in tapped or discouraging them to be played altogether and therefore forcing them to play their basics first) and by stripping your opponent of the ability to play chump blockers or exploit hasty dudes, Thalia is able to get in for some commander damage while allowing you to play more threats that the opponent has to (or should at least try to) answer.
This brings us to the the second part of the strategy: committing hate pieces to the board that are relevant. This ties in with the threat assessment: some commanders are inherently more threatening than others, and sometimes you can hit two with one hate piece. Say, for example, you are in a three-person pod. You are playing against Meren of Clan Nel-Toth and Brago, King Eternal. In your hand, you have the following:
You have three mana available to you. You need to hit both players, so which do you choose?
In this position, I'd wait for either Meren or Brago to make a move and flash in Containment Priest. Here the Priest does double-duty as hate against Meren's graveyard recycling and Brago's flicker abusing. Rest in Peace and Ghostly Prison have their uses against either commander but do little against the other.
However, depending on what Meren and Brago have to exploit, Hushwing Gryff can also do a ton of work--but playing it means sacrificing a relevant equipment from Stoneforge Mystic, one of the deck's few sources of tutoring and, through the equipment, card advantage. But if the Gryff keeps the game's equilibrium in your favor, sometimes you have to accept friendly fire and sandbag the Mystic until the Gryff has been answered.
I used this very specific situation because it is actually pretty common for the deck to find itself presented with decisions like this--and some that aren't even as clean. Most of the time you will have to work with what you draw in your opening hand; sometimes your cards will turn off some of your other cards, as Hushwing Gryff would SFM. However, if it means that you are keeping things "fair," the downside for you is rarely as bad as the downside for your opponents. And in the case of 1v1 games, this threat assessment and solution is substantially easier, as you can be far more selective with your hate.
Playing hate effects isn't the path to win with this deck, however. What makes a Death & Taxes strategy different from a Stax strategy is that its locks and hate pieces are also creatures--meaning that they also can serve as win cons. The control imposed by Death & Taxes is of a weaker kind, less of a guarantee and more of an arranged opportunity. This is as true for the Legacy and Modern versions as it is for this one, and waiting around for an opportune time to strike. If they're open and your Leonin Arbiter can smack them for two, do it! This deck is all about winning through incremental gains, not about overwhelming opponents all at once.
Sometimes referred to as the "Swiss Army Knife of Legacy," Umezawa's Jitte is an incredibly versatile equipment capable of generating card advantage regardless of whether the equipped creature is on the offensive or defensive.
Generally speaking, once your opponents get their forces up and ready to block, you have two ways to keep the advantage in combat: creatures with flying and creatures with first strike, each more powerful with any of the Swords of X and Y or Umezawa's Jitte. So long as you can attack without losing a valuable hate piece you should, as any wasted turn could eventually result in losing the game. First strike is surprisingly valuable to this end, especially when paired with Umezawa's Jitte. Because of how combat works with first strike, a creature equipped with a Jitte will actually have either two more power or four more toughness, depending on which mode you decide to use (either applying the -1/-1 effects to the blocker/blocked creature or the +2/+2 effect to the equipped creature).
To aid in this general aim of taxation and weenie-style combat, the deck has a number of very powerful spells to keep our low-cost, "early game" spells potent into the late game: Armageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Cataclysm and Retribution of the Meek. Board wipes, such as Wrath of God, aren't so great in this deck since it relies so much on its creatures to carry the game, and while Austere Command would be lovely to have, six mana is already steep in a deck built around taxes, land destruction and Winter Orb. Catastrophe gets by on both these accounts as it is a third copy of Armageddon or an overpriced Wrath of God, serving as a great last resort when facing simply too many creatures--or players.
To sum up the strategy in short: play hatebears, tax aggressively and destroy your opponent's resources to keep the pressure on.
Card Breakdown: the Primary Cards
These are cards which should never really be cut from this deck if you want to keep it competitive. I've personally spent months testing many of the possible cards for this deck and almost every day I'll devote some time to researching other possible additions or cuts. While I won't say my list is perfect, I will say that I have spent enough time with it (and the Death & Taxes archetype) to have a good feel for the things it needs and the things it can live without.
Do note, however, that the Gryff does not interact with "as X enters the battlefield" or "X enters enters the battlefield with Y" effects, like Iona, Shield of Emeria or Triskelion respectively.
Tutors, like ETBs, saturate the format at every level of play. Some decks tutor only once or twice a game; some every turn; most at least three or four times for lands. Thus Mindcensor is invaluable as a strong answer to these effects without being overly punishing. For those searching for a basic off Sakura-Tribe Elder, the chances of it being in the top four is at least decent. For them to cast Tooth and Nail entwined for Craterhoof and Avenger is far less likely. The fact that the Mindcensor doesn't hurt you is all the more reason to play him. And, like Leonin Arbiter, he turns Ghost Quarter and Path to Exile into brutal removal.
Their absolute potency didn't really occur to me as I made the deck; I most put them in as answers to Mizzix or other combos. Then I realized how many spells EDH players try to cast in a turn and I realized that, by limiting them down to only one, you turn most EDH decks into slow, ponderous machines. Whether it's ramping up with mana rocks or land fetches in the early turns or chaining spells and effects in the midgame, many EDH strategies need to cast many spells in a turn just to function on a normal level, let alone win a game. Canonist is slightly softer, as she allows artifact decks to play mostly unhindered, but since this deck plays a number of mana rocks and equipment she also hurts less, and her cheaper CMC means she can affect the game sooner.
I initially wrote him off because of his casting cost. When I realized he could be tutored with Recruiter of the Guard I immediately tossed him in. Hokori is, simply put, amazing for this deck. You can bamboozle players who've tapped out; you can play him early and force them to remove him instead of something else. He makes Thalia's Kismet-tax even more potent. You can equip a Sword of Feast and Famine on him and laugh like a maniac. Really, when it comes to Hokori, there's no limit to the reasons to play him in this deck.
She fills in many roles while barely affecting us. The Priest serves as an answer to reanmation spells, creature tutors, creature cheaters (such as Elvish Piper), flicker/blink shenanigans and, if your opponent is running anything with Meld, they'll have even more of a reason to hate their cards. Containment Priest also turns Oblivion Ring and Flickerwisp into hard removal!
Instead of destroying lands, this just makes them useless. There's really no need to explain why you need Winter Orb in this deck, though I will say that I won't run Static Orb because you can cheese it with mana rocks the same way you can cheese Winter Orb.
While Meekstone has some unfavorable interactions with some cards in the deck, on the whole these cards turn Thalia's tap effect into a kind of removal for threats. On their own, however, they also do a lot of work by keeping large creatures from running roughshod and neutralizing buff and swing strategies.
While not strictly analogous, these have become the cards synonymous with graveyard hate in the formats the're legal in. Cage is typically more useful (like Priest it hits several strategies) but RIP also removes cards, meaning at the very least it will accomplish something even if it is removed.
Like Eidolon and Canonist, Rule of Law hits EDH decks hard and is even harder to remove. I will typically play this first if given the choice between it or one of the others, but redundancy is crucial in a deck like this.
A brutal card against enchantresses or artificers. Landing this early against them is great for gaining tempo and late game (or in a pinch) you can pop it to remove one of their threats. Combos well with Sun Titan, as does Seal of Cleansing.
Tangle Wire is simply busted. This card can keep a table locked down while you spring ahead. It can pull you back into a game. You can Flickerwisp it to keep the misery going. You can bring it back with Sun Titan. It can tap itself to pay for it's tax; you can tap equipment and Clues to pay for it, too. Rarely will a Tangle Wire hurt you more than your opponents and the fact it can power up Winter Orb (or make it relevant again) just makes Tangle Wire and auto-include.
Equipment
The equipment in this deck, unlike most mono-white decks, are few and carefully selected. Other decks will try to run ten or more; this deck only has six: Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of Light and Shadow, Sword of Feast and Famine, Sword of the Animist, Umezawa's Jitte and Skullclamp. While other equipment could hypothetically enter the deck, such as Lightning Greaves or Champion's Helm, these each serve important roles and frankly the list is too tight to meddle with equipment that don't demand removal from an opponent or serve to shore up the deck's weaknesses.
Each of the Swords of X and Y provide important protection from removal and, because of this protection, can also connect past an opponent's defenses, crucial for exploiting their powerful triggered effects. Umezawa's Jitte (like Fire and Ice) can remove small threats or buff the equipped creature, or even gain life if you need to stay alive just long enough to win. Sword of the Animist provides ramp in a deck sorely needing it and shines most after you've wiped the lands with an Armageddon. Skullclamp, aside from being a means of putting down a bear that's hurting you too much, punishes the opponent for removing one of your creatures, and the minor buff to power means that Thalia takes one fewer turn to hit for lethal commander damage.
Usually Mentor of the Meek is favored since it is seen as a cheaper and more immediate version of the same effect. However, in this deck, paying 1 more for a creature can turn an already complicated game into a logistical nightmare. Mentor is constantly demanding that you use him or lose him, and often times the demand of presenting taxes outweighs the demand of paying for an extra card. The net result is that you lose the ability to either tax as aggressively as you could or end up with an empty hand and a 2/2 for 2W. Bygone Bishop, by contrast, produces Clues for no additional cost and these Clues, beyond being cards in a can, can be used to pay for Tangle Wire's upkeep tax or fed to an opposing Smokestack.
Crucible performs two big roles: first to make Armageddon hurt a lot less and second to abuse the hell out of Wasteland, Strip Mine and Ghost Quarter. It's a slow grind and you have to basically sacrifice your land drop, but with these lands (Strip Mine especially) you can keep an opponent from doing anything meaningful while you work with the lands you already had. Crucible is also great for abusing Buried Ruin or Inventor's Fair, which at the time of this writing I have not gotten around to testing.
Like Thalia, this card is deceptively powerful. Wisp, being a 3/1 with flying, attacks hard and trades well; it can remove annoying things your opponent has; it can reset planeswalkers. It performs many roles and only gets better if you have an Aether Vial
Vial isn't, I'll admit, as powerful in the singleton, 99-card format of EDH as it is in 60-card decks with a playset. However, it generates virtual mana and lets you "cast" creatures at instant speed without the opponent being able to counter them or even know what they are until the ability resolves. With the way the curve is set, Vial can stay at either two or three counters and will usually have something to sneak in, leaving your mana free to cast artifacts, enchantments or Armageddon.
Although it is often seen as a card used to generate card advantage with X/1 creatures, Skullclamp also serves as a kind of tax by dissuading removal.
Maybeboard/"Benched" Cards
While my list is really tight, there is a large number of cards that could be included. My choices reflect my meta more than anything else, though many of these cards aren't included because of their mana cost or simply because their effect is narrow or lack enough impact.
A big omission from the Legacy deck, Port definitely has a use in this list, especially in two-player games where tapping down a land like Gaea's Cradle or Cabal Coffers can definitely hinder the opponent's progress. However, what I've found is that the effect is mostly useless, as any decks will use something like Deserted Temple to untap their land or will simply around it. You're better off playing removal like Wasteland or Armageddon, or using something like Winter Orb to keep them grasping for mana than try to select a single threat. It may make its way into the deck at some point, however.
Dust Bowl and Flagstones of Trokair are practically made for one another, especially when you have Crucible of Worlds to go crazy with it. However the interaction is rather clunky to set up and, generally speaking, spending effectively four mana and a land to destroy one nonbasic land isn't the best use of resources in the deck. Tectonic Edge, similarly, isn't very reliable and only hits once your opponent has enough lands to probably not care about whatever you are removing.
As hosers for specific kinds of cards, these are great. If you run into decks reliant on the effects these answer, fit them in; otherwise, these are narrow and starve the deck of precious W mana.
Currently testing alongside Mikokoro. Like Mikokoro, the Sanitarium provides a source of extra cards when you need fuel and interacts well with Spirit of the Labyrinth. In fact, it interacts even better with Spirit, as it forces an opponent to just discard while you get to loot if used on their turn. However, Mikokoro provides actual card advantage, while Sanitarium is dependent on Spirit of the Labyrinth to start turning a profit, so the jury is still out as far as I'm concerned.
Getting back one of the legends in this deck is usually a good thing (as they tend to be more powerful that the others), but given that they only have five targets I can't really justify their presence.
Something I'm currently testing. While he's great for stalling combat-focused decks, combat is a part of this deck as well. Being 0/3 also means that he cannot be tutored by Recruiter of the Guard, which is kind of a letdown. Of course a real Moat would be preferable, but I'm just not that rich.
Like Magus, this card has some uses but a lot of downsides--namely it totally hinders your ability to pressure your opponents and, on top of that, drains 1W from you each upkeep. You can sidestep this by using Sun Titan to effectively turn off your opponent's combat step but, overall, it's a very unreliable combo and by itself Peacekeeper just doesn't do what you want it to do.
Perhaps some of the more glaring omissions from the deck, Silence and Rod do a lot of work against artifact decks. However, in a deck with mana rocks, equipment and utility artifacts like Scroll Rack and Sensei's Divining Top, I find that they are simply too corrosive. If your meta is replete with artifact decks, however, I definitely recommend fitting one or both of them in. Or, you could alternatively run...
Hokori's little brother is a cheaper all-around Energy Flux, but he still can provide a lot of solid value in the right meta. Like Rod and Silence, I don't run him since he corrodes the deck in its current iteration, but I would sooner add him than Rod or Silence since his effect is at least manageable.
A neat twist on combat hate, Michiko is another card I've been testing. The main issue is just that most players will either remove her and attack, or simply wait until they can alpha strike. Enforcer presents some of the same problems as well. And at four and five CMC respectively, they ultimately may never see play just because you have other, better things you can cast for less.
Though extremely powerful in Legacy, Prelate poses a number of problems in commander--primarily, what do you call? Four hits most of the board wipes, but it also turns off your Armageddon, Ravages of War and Cataclysm, arguably some of the deck's most powerful cards. Naturally she works better in a deck like Gaddock Teeg, where you can name three (to hit Toxic Deluge), two or one (for spot removal). Ultimately running Prelate means playing the kind of mind tricks that don't always work unless you play in an establish, unchanging meta.
Of these, Blind Obedience is the only one I'm actively testing. Authority is great because it is cheap and the lifegain provides a good cushion against aggro decks, but the effect is already stapled on your commander and the redundancy just doesn't seem worth the slot. Kismet and Gatekeeper, functionally identical, are both too expensive to really provide the same kind of impact. Thalia hits far less, but she hits the relevant stuff (outside of artifacts). It is only because of the kind of quasi-artifact hate that Obedience provides (in addition to a bit of lifegain off spells via Extort) that I consider it worth running over these other options.
Thorn and Glowrider both are nice in terms of redundancy but, in truth, don't contribute enough. Vryn Wingmare is better than Glowrider 90% of the time simply by having flying. Original Thalia is simply better than Thorn because she can attack. Sphere and Golem tax more spells overall, but this means they hurt you as well, and Golem costing 4 is also kind of a hard sell. Ultimately these cards are best suited for a Guardian of Thraben build.
Though this is no Balance, Equipoise is another card I've been playing around with. You can deny countermagic, turn combat in your favor and can serve to crush token-based strategies. However, the card doesn't really remove anything and, as the permanents phase back in on their upkeep, Equipoise can actually help an opponent if someone casts a wipe.
Though it is obviously potent against anything from fetch lands to superfriend decks, Field also makes a fifth of the deck that much harder to use with no real way to avoid the tax itself.
Though probably a bit win-more, a Platinum Angel effect for only 1WW seems likely worth some testing. Whether it will replace Elspeth, Knight-Errant seems dubious, however, given her amazing utility and perfect ultimate. The fact that this Gideon, or any other Gideon really, doesn't really provide any kind of tax or removal is another mark against it.
Of these, Judgment is the only thing really worth running, given that it can hit anything with hexproof, shroud, protection from white or indestructible. The problem, however, comes down to the cost of these cards--WW is already in high demand for the hatebears and hate pieces in this deck and, at least in my experience, the drain on mana to cast Judgment has never yielded enough value in whatever it is removing.
This deck has a few major weaknesses that should be addressed:
It is not that great in 4+ player games
A lot of this is simply because you can't hit enough players all at once. That's not to say this deck will fold, or even that it won't put up a fight. It just means that you have to change your strategy. Multiplayer games draw in more degenerate decks, usually ones focused on grinding down or comboing out and those are the decks you have to target. Sell yourself not as the fun police but the protector of the game and use this political leverage to eliminate the bigger threats. Then, once the most threatening decks have been eliminated or neutered, shift focus to the next biggest threat. Ultimately games like this will rely on cards like Retribution of the Meek, Cataclysm and Dusk // Dawn to keep things manageable for you. Armageddon and its ilk should only be played when you know your are close to either losing or winning. Winter Orb and Hokori should also be played with extreme caution, as most players won't easily forget the salt these cards like to rub in their wounds.
It is also not great at catching up
This deck does not poses any infinite combos. It does not have any source of extreme card drawn. It cannot repair itself quickly if its hand and field is wiped out completely (like it could have been against Leovold, RIP you bastard). In the face of cards like Elesh Norn, Iona, Dread of Night or Night of Souls' Betrayal, this deck will struggle until the card is answered.
What Thalia has, however, is a strong suite of disruptive cards and a design that is meant to answer these problems before they even occur. Mana denial, land destruction and an aggressive-control style means that the opponent is either dead or very nearly dead by the time they can play these answers, at which point this deck will usually have the means to answer that in kind. When playing this deck, it is crucial to remember that: Thalia prevents the bad stuff before it even happens, not answer it after it's already resolved.
Anything packing a bunch of removal is going to be rough
Jund and Junk decks, anything devoted to removing killing creatures (King Macar, the Gold-Cursed and Horobi, Death's Wail come to mind) or anything generally devoted to punishing creature strategies, like Humility, will make for difficult games. Equipment and mana denial will help in these games.
Cataclysm excels not only as a kind of pseudo-Balance--it kills planeswalkers, too!
Part V: Personal Aside
If you've read this far, I want to thank you for sticking with me as I explain my thoughts on this deck. D&T has been with me for most of my time playing Magic: it was the first Legacy (and also competitive) deck and though I've tried other archetypes I always came back to it because there is just nothing quite like it. As a creature deck that plays more like a control deck than an aggro deck, it occupies a unique position in its format as both a predator of greedy strategies and proof that a deck does not need to contain staples to do well in the format. I've met many D&T players in my time and I can say confidently that they are among some of the most brilliant players in Legacy. After all, they chose a deck with no guarantees, no game-breaking locks and no auto-win combos. Instead they opted for a strange, rickety machine that starts off with a Plains and a Vial and ends with the opponent staring at their hand in anger, beaten by a bunch of 2/1's and 2/2's that, on the surface, don't seem to change the game that much at all. The feeling of winning with a bunch of cards once dismissed as "White Weenies," of toppling a $3,000 deck with one maybe a third its value, is something unparalleled for me. It's that rush of narrow victory, knowing your opponent was only one mana way from removing a Thalia, or casting their Jace, the Mind-Sculptor, or attaining a lethal Storm count that kept me coming back to it time and time again.
Last year I sold my Legacy Death & Taxes. I know it's only a deck, that there are literally hundreds of thousands of others decks running identical cards out there right now. But it was also my deck. Memories of travelling to a GP with friends, late nights brewing online with strangers, practicing hands and discovering some tiny little interaction that, actually, gave the deck some new tool to pick apart the opponent's the next time I played--everything about it was also linked to me and to my memories. Selling it for money--just enough to scrape by, not even enough to do anything meaningful--was likely losing selling your first car. It was like losing a friend.
So, it is my hope that this primer helps anyone else unfortunate enough to be in my position--and for anyone else who has wanted to play D&T in a format other than Legacy! I am open to discussion of certain card choices pr critiques of the deck in general and will try to keep this primer up to date.
I certainly don't see it pulling more weight than Magus/Recruiter or Pridemage/Teeg in those respective builds, but it makes a stronger case for mono-white with its more resilient manabase.
Stacking the effect is one thing, but in reality the combo we lose to even WITH Thalia out doesn't really care about one more mana if you can't kill them fast enough. An OmniTell opponent gets to 5 mana, casts Show and Tell, drops Omni, then "hardcasts" Emmy. Still GG.
As Barbed said, I don't think this fights for Flickerwisp spots at all. Also remember: casting a Plowshares for 1W is already *kind of* annoying. Casting for 3 or 4 makes the spell downright bad. I'm wary to cut Avengers for them as well, because even though it's been bandied around forever that Avengers don't serve any utility, they do. 3-toughness matters a whole lot against -1/-1 effects, Punishing Fire, blocking any X/2s of opponents, etc. I don't even *like* Avenger on paper for what this deck does, but even in the Wg build I have to acknowledge Avenger as a smoothing agent to overall victorious play. At best, Wingmare is for flex spots, not something you want to use to have 8 Thalias. The times are rare where Thalia taxing the DnT player is awkward, but they still exist. DnT just happens to be the deck best positioned to skirt around it.
CMC3 makes it seriously "Just OK" in my book. The worst of it is over by that turn, for better or worse. Turn 3 is when harder taxes need to come into play. Otherwise, if this was truly a bonafide strategy, we'd already see DnT lists with 4 Thalia, 4 Thorn of Amethyst. Time will tell.
I agree with your points regarding Avenger and StP (or vial or equipment). I would never run 4 for this reason and I'd be hesitant to drop one if another tax was already in effect.
However I think it's thoroughly better than most of the other lackluster options we have in Censor and Spirit. It needs testing (as everyone has already said) but my hypothesis is that it will see some kind of play. Even as a singleton I like it. It lends more consistency to the deck while giving us fliers to annoy planeswalkers and get SoFI/Jitte activations.
But I'm seeing it as less a combo hater (really, as you said, Thalia isn't that much better anyway) and more as a way to really beat up on Pyromancer and fair blue decks. Casting a Jace for 6 or Lilly for 5 really gets my engine revving, let alone nerfing their cantrips and removal (if an StP for three is bad for us, imagine how terrible it is for Blade!)
I'm eager to get a few copies and test it. Maybe that angel, too. Mostly I'm excited to see better hatebears come out.
although I like the card, our other three drops are simply better. Typically three drops are the top of your curve. I would argue we don't want many. No more than 5-6. The D&T list that placed second at a SCG IQ played 6 (x1 Brimaz, x3 Flicker, x1 even minds censor, x1 crusader. What do you cut from that to make room for the new card?
I don't think you cut anything. In theory you "could" cut two drops, but then you become top heavy.
Maybe it's because I play my deck more old school, but my list usually has about seven three-drops and it hasn't really felt top-heavy.
I also don't see much value in copying a winning list straight up. Yes, I understand the logic (that is, it placed well so it must do something right) but I think, especially in a deck like D&T, the player piloting that deck also matters. Some of us are more comfortable with an aggressive deck, others like myself prefer a more controlling style, and others (apparently, since I haven't been keeping up) like to splash. None of them are really wrong, just approaching the concept of D&T differently.
The new Pegasus is good, but being a 2/1 I wouldn't consider anything near full set on the main. It also doesn't pull enogh weight as a sideboard card due to the high CMC. It's also non legendary so you can't do Karakas shenanigans against many decks where Thalia shines. He would've been SO much better (like, 4x material) at 1/2. But WotC seems to have the erroneous idea when making hatebears thinking more power is better because White Weenie.
Even a 1WW 1/2 would be much better. But nope, we can't get creatures from WotC that don't suck in a major way that makes them nearly unplayable. Like the new Angel, even a 2WW 2/4 would be hundreds of miles better. It happened with SotL also. WotC, just stop printing X/1s dangit, we have more than enough of them.
As it is right now I would only play it in Monowhite as you can splash better cards in other colors.
The 2/1 trend is more likely for balance. You get an awesome effect for little cost, but it dies to a stiff breeze. Such is life under the NWO.
I'm not sold on x/1s being terrible. We can avoid the downsides pretty easily. It's the effect I'm more concerned with--and I like the consistency the Mare will hypothetically add.
I certainly don't see it pulling more weight than Magus/Recruiter or Pridemage/Teeg in those respective builds, but it makes a stronger case for mono-white with its more resilient manabase.
Stacking the effect is one thing, but in reality the combo we lose to even WITH Thalia out doesn't really care about one more mana if you can't kill them fast enough. An OmniTell opponent gets to 5 mana, casts Show and Tell, drops Omni, then "hardcasts" Emmy. Still GG.
As Barbed said, I don't think this fights for Flickerwisp spots at all. Also remember: casting a Plowshares for 1W is already *kind of* annoying. Casting for 3 or 4 makes the spell downright bad. I'm wary to cut Avengers for them as well, because even though it's been bandied around forever that Avengers don't serve any utility, they do. 3-toughness matters a whole lot against -1/-1 effects, Punishing Fire, blocking any X/2s of opponents, etc. I don't even *like* Avenger on paper for what this deck does, but even in the Wg build I have to acknowledge Avenger as a smoothing agent to overall victorious play. At best, Wingmare is for flex spots, not something you want to use to have 8 Thalias. The times are rare where Thalia taxing the DnT player is awkward, but they still exist. DnT just happens to be the deck best positioned to skirt around it.
CMC3 makes it seriously "Just OK" in my book. The worst of it is over by that turn, for better or worse. Turn 3 is when harder taxes need to come into play. Otherwise, if this was truly a bonafide strategy, we'd already see DnT lists with 4 Thalia, 4 Thorn of Amethyst. Time will tell.
I agree with your points regarding Avenger and StP (or vial or equipment). I would never run 4 for this reason and I'd be hesitant to drop one if another tax was already in effect.
However I think it's thoroughly better than most of the other lackluster options we have in Censor and Spirit. It needs testing (as everyone has already said) but my hypothesis is that it will see some kind of play. Even as a singleton I like it. It lends more consistency to the deck while giving us fliers to annoy planeswalkers and get SoFI/Jitte activations.
But I'm seeing it as less a combo hater (really, as you said, Thalia isn't that much better anyway) and more as a way to really beat up on Pyromancer and fair blue decks. Casting a Jace for 6 or Lilly for 5 really gets my engine revving, let alone nerfing their cantrips and removal (if an StP for three is bad for us, imagine how terrible it is for Blade!)
I'm eager to get a few copies and test it. Maybe that angel, too. Mostly I'm excited to see better hatebears come out.
I'll be trying this out as a 2-of in the flex slots. Though the deck doesn't necessarily NEED more of this effect, the fact that this creature has flying pushes it into the realm of real playability. Glowrider has always been on the outside looking in; the mana cost was restrictive, and it didn't quite have enough else going for it to justify the slot. Flying seems like a dealbreaker for me. Many forum regulars have advocated having a good numbers of fliers in the deck to have a sufficient amount of evasion against board stalls and a solid number of blockers against delvers.
This is what I'll be trying out. Maybe this Pegasus will pull me out of my Legacy slump!
I think being able to consistently keep the Thalia tax on the board will be the selling point for the Mare. We always talk about mulling aggressively since we lack card selection, but by adding this card I think our hands will be a bit more forgiving--on top of the awesome flying stapled to it.
6 taxes, 9 fliers AND my favorite "bad" card: Mangara (or Crusader, Censor, Brimaz or whatever). It'll be Christmas in July for us, boys/girls.
So, they just spoiled a flying glowrider? It's obviously worse than Thalia and another critter with 1 toughness, but doesn't the thought of this together with Thalia make you drool? You could even have two of these and Thalia to have super-trinisphere on a stick shenanigans...
It seems so risky, but also so worth it if it works.
Not actually sure... Can't save with Karakas, no first stike, competing for three drop with Flickerwisp... It is a bit fishy, but having 2 Thalia's out seems nice.
My only concern is the X/1 part. First strike rarely matters since it's flying (going to trade with Delvers). Also, why does it compete with Flickerwisp? If anything, it competes with our beater flexspots.
Yeah this guy replaces maybe Avenger or whatever flex you're running, if anything. Wisp is basically sacrosanct in this deck as far as I'm concerned.
Probably better than Mindcensor for anyone that's playing it. It'll probably fit into a flex spot for some people; can't see it as anything but a 0-2.
Yeah 2 seems like a solid number. Making our StP's nigh-uncastable with multiples/Thalia out is a bit concerning but most opponents are probably hurting more if that's the case.
It's great that we've received two neat toys in Origins though, even if one is just a bit too expensive.
The critical part is the CC. Tripple white is no joke with our mana base (much harder than Resto for those who ran it) and I can rarely see us wanting to tick up our Vials to 4 just for this angel. That's the bad side.
As for the good side, it's AD-immune and Bolt-proof. It can also block Delvers, Batterskull, even 4/5 Goyfs like a champ.
It also fits very well our taxing theme. Aside from stopping them from alpha-striking, it can also prepare our alpha-strike when you tap down their lands during their upkeep and our following upkeep to leave them without mana. Sadly, the card is too slow to stop Elves from stomping us (and they have insane amounts of mana anyway).
The effect is definitely powerful, but only testing can determine whether or not it's worth the high investment cost.
*sigh* So close. If it had some other ability like Flash, or if it was a 3/4 for WWW instead...
We've supported 4-drops before, though. Maybe she can work.
Relic Hunter, the new origins spoiled card, is a definitely worse version of SFM, but I think it probably bears some form of testing especially if you're running a 4SFM build. Having a 5th, albeit more conditional form of equipment tutoring on a stronger body is certainly interesting to me.
It really isn't. We already have a better 3/3 for 2 and she has flying and vigilance. And that's if this Glory Seeker that says "kill me before I become a problem" survives a turn AND connects--something that cannot be relied on in a format like Legacy where if a creature lives for a turn it is a stroke of luck.
I hope I'm not coming across as a dick. That's not my intention. I'm just saying don't dilute your deck with him. He's neat, he's cool, I'll probably play him.in EDH. But is he a sound legacy card? Not by a long, looong shot.
What does everyone else think about no Spirits in the mainboard? It seems like a tough call given the number of Brainstorms and Treasure Cruises floating around.
You know, it seems like Spirit would be mandatory in the main... and yet I couldn't disagree more. She attacks the possibility of something and does nothing to stop the actual cards in their hand. Meanwhile, you don't want to attack with her because you want to keep the tax going in the hopes that it is really putting the screws to your opponent. I've found myself twiddling my thumbs with her in play, knowing that they'll block her in an instant while my opponent feels no pressure and will naturally draw into removal.
Spirit is at her best in a meta of combo and hard control like Miracles; a meta where Snapcaster's Ambush Viper mode is the only thing that will block her. This isn't that meta right now.
I like it where it is now in my list. A silver bullet for the occasional blowout or lock-down. As a main deck card, though? I want my opponents to struggle over which card to blow their Lightning Bolt on. Spirit just isn't that card.
I only saw Relic once (NicFit) and it was decent. My plan was to use it vs UR Delver primarily for the T ability. However, in retrospect, I am not so confident in it. The cantrip effect is nice, but I think it'll turn back into either Ratchet Bomb or Grafdigger's Cage.
I'm also leaning towards cutting the Gut Shots and adding a Sunlance and another bullet, probably Oblivion Ring or Ghostly Prison.
I completely agree about mangara I ran without him once and I never will again. I find him to be b necessary at least2 of in my 75.
I am with you there on the numbers; two has been very solid for me. I can also see the merits of a single copy, too, but I prefer to see him more often than not.
Out of curiosity Blightning, what's your gameplan versus UWr Landstill? In the past I tended to mulligan aggressively to Vial/a relevant threat, but it's popped up in my meta recently (with an exceptional player piloting it), and I feel like I get outvalued constantly. Granted, I've seen an average of two Swords a game in pre-board matches against him, but I'm trying to find alternate avenues of attack outside of variance.
Vial and Mangara are the best cards against them. I was fortunate to have both in one of my games; post-board, I remove a single SFM, Jitte and STP for Cataclym, E Tutor, Spirit, Needle and Judgment. Do note that Flickerwisp is good vs Standstill if you are slipping him into play off a Vial. Sometimes, especially when you do not have a Vial, you have to let them get the Standstill trigger; usually if you are landing a big threat like Brimaz/Mangara it doesn't hurt so much.
Wastelands usually aim for Factories; however, nabbing a Karakas is obviously good.
EDIT: if you expect Standstill a lot, consider SotL in a larger number.
3-2-1. Got an achievement for that one. I dropped and got cheesesteak and Voodoo Donuts (if any of you guys every make it to Portland, do yourself a favor and get some of the food from the joints in the area, especially the street vendors; it's all wicked good).
Omni: 0-2
Fish (with SEAHUNTER!!): 1-1
Old School UWr Standstill: 2-0
UWR Stoneblade: 2-1
UB Tezz: 2-0
Jund Punishing NicFit: 0-2
Some quick notes:
-Anyone not running Mangara is wrong. He, as he always does, pulled my ass out of some many fires yesterday. My UWr Blade opponent audibly griped over who to kill: Mangara, SFM or Thalia. This is what people aren't getting about Mangara of Corondor: it's not that he's an aggressive threat against combo or an all-star against tempo; it's that, in the matchups where there is spot removal and the game goes long, where we want to keep a threat like an SFM or a Revoker in play, Mangara is simply superb--not because he removes stuff but because he magnetizes your opponent's removal and draws their attention. He forces them to choose between losing the game sooner, to a large threat, or later by being unable to cast spells. Someone will disagree, I'm sure, but I'm standing my ground on this one: until something shakes either the deck or the meta up, Mangara should be a staple in most lists.
-The single Spirit in my board was perfect for me. I always feel like she clutters up my main and, since I have Tutor, I always had her when I needed her. I also had her naturally in my game-three opener against UWR Blade; he was very tilted at that point (Batterskull+SoFI did some heavy lifting in the previous game) and he just lost it when she hit play on the second turn. She got suited up with a SoFI a few turns later and proceeded to pummel (and even without the draw trigger, I am still more on the SoFI train than any other Sword of X/Y mentioned previously).
-E Tutor was such a relief to have. It really took the stress off my natural draws and having Canopy also made it less disadvantageous in some situations.
-The side needs work. I felt very light on hate for the rounds I lost and my fish matchup was pretty rough without Sunlance. Tidal Warrior was a card. :[ Containment Priest was fun vs Seahunter, though!
-I am dropping Crusader for another Avenger, I think, or maybe a Brimaz or Linvala. Regardless, evasion > pro GB and he's just really frail for the meta right now, given his role in the deck. My blade opponent was crapping his trousers, though; he apparently had no idea that MC has double strike.
-on the whole, I loved my list. It's very classic, much like the days of Innistrad-era Legacy. Even in the games I lost, I still felt like I was in it most of the game, or that I had a chance to rip something.
Death & Taxes in EDH
Welcome to my primer on semi-competitive Thalia, Heretic Cathar EDH! As the title suggests, this is my attempt at exporting Legacy Death & Taxes to the EDH/Commander format. While there are plenty of familiar faces from the Legacy deck, this list is more an attempt at preserving the "spirit" of Legacy D&T, rather than trying to make some cards (like Rishadan Port) viable in a format where they simply aren't as useful.
Table of Contents
Primary Cards
Maybeboard/"Benched" cards
Part I: Why you should or shouldn't play this
You should play Thalia if...
You probably shouldn't play Thalia if...
There are, of course, other "hatebearish" commanders, but they are too specific in their effect to really earn their spot in the big chair, such as Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Kataki, War's Wage.
Part II: The List
For some useful data and a more user-friendly view, you can also check this list out on TappedOut.
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
Creatures
1 Angel of Jubilation
1 Archangel of Tithes
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Bygone Bishop
1 Containment Priest
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flickerwisp
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Hushwing Gryff
1 Leonin Arbiter
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mother of Runes
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Serra Ascendant
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sun Titan
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Ancient Den
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Emeria, The Sky Ruin
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kor Haven
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
18 Plains
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
Mana Rocks
1 Coalition Relic
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mind Stone
1 Sol Ring
Other Artifacts
1 Aether Vial
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Meekstone
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of the Animist
1 Tangle Wire
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Winter Orb
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crackdown
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Land Tax
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Rest in Peace
1 Rule of Law
1 Seal of Cleansing
Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instants and Sorceries
1 Armageddon
1 Cataclysm
1 Dusk // Dawn
1 Catastrophe
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Idyllic Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Ravages of War
1 Retribution of the Meek
1 Swords to Plowshares
Part III: Strategy and Card Breakdown
Strategy
The Death & Taxes strategy, and therefore this deck's strategy, is to break your opponents' decks using disruptive creatures and spells, forcing them to "play fair." "Playing fair," within the context of D&T, means that players should only play basic lands, should pay for their creatures at their full cost using these lands and that they cannot recycle their cards to generate more value than any other player. Naturally, a Craterhoof Behemoth is much more efficient and powerful if it's played off an Eldritch Evolution or resurrected by Unburial Rites. Of course a Mizzix deck is going to generate insane value by playing a bunch of spells in a turn and cast Mind's Desire with Storm at 15. The plan with Thalia is to look at these degenerate plays and say "no more."
Though never quite powerful enough for Legacy (except for a matchup like Storm), effects which limit the number of spells per turn are actually very strong in EDH.
Generally, threat assessment is key with a deck like this. You have very few tutors or card draw, and in a game you need to both establish your own board state while also stopping the opponent's--whether it is by small gains or absolute game grinders like Winter Orb. Thalia is usually key to slowing down your opponent; playing her early is therefore crucial. Her abilities are deceptively powerful: the creatures and nonbasics entering tapped is great at generating Tempo, a complicated concept in Magic that more or less translates to a measure of how more advanced your board is compared to the other players'. By hindering fetch lands, preventing early plays (due to duals or Command Towers coming in tapped or discouraging them to be played altogether and therefore forcing them to play their basics first) and by stripping your opponent of the ability to play chump blockers or exploit hasty dudes, Thalia is able to get in for some commander damage while allowing you to play more threats that the opponent has to (or should at least try to) answer.
This brings us to the the second part of the strategy: committing hate pieces to the board that are relevant. This ties in with the threat assessment: some commanders are inherently more threatening than others, and sometimes you can hit two with one hate piece. Say, for example, you are in a three-person pod. You are playing against Meren of Clan Nel-Toth and Brago, King Eternal. In your hand, you have the following:
You have three mana available to you. You need to hit both players, so which do you choose?
In this position, I'd wait for either Meren or Brago to make a move and flash in Containment Priest. Here the Priest does double-duty as hate against Meren's graveyard recycling and Brago's flicker abusing. Rest in Peace and Ghostly Prison have their uses against either commander but do little against the other.
However, depending on what Meren and Brago have to exploit, Hushwing Gryff can also do a ton of work--but playing it means sacrificing a relevant equipment from Stoneforge Mystic, one of the deck's few sources of tutoring and, through the equipment, card advantage. But if the Gryff keeps the game's equilibrium in your favor, sometimes you have to accept friendly fire and sandbag the Mystic until the Gryff has been answered.
I used this very specific situation because it is actually pretty common for the deck to find itself presented with decisions like this--and some that aren't even as clean. Most of the time you will have to work with what you draw in your opening hand; sometimes your cards will turn off some of your other cards, as Hushwing Gryff would SFM. However, if it means that you are keeping things "fair," the downside for you is rarely as bad as the downside for your opponents. And in the case of 1v1 games, this threat assessment and solution is substantially easier, as you can be far more selective with your hate.
Playing hate effects isn't the path to win with this deck, however. What makes a Death & Taxes strategy different from a Stax strategy is that its locks and hate pieces are also creatures--meaning that they also can serve as win cons. The control imposed by Death & Taxes is of a weaker kind, less of a guarantee and more of an arranged opportunity. This is as true for the Legacy and Modern versions as it is for this one, and waiting around for an opportune time to strike. If they're open and your Leonin Arbiter can smack them for two, do it! This deck is all about winning through incremental gains, not about overwhelming opponents all at once.
Generally speaking, once your opponents get their forces up and ready to block, you have two ways to keep the advantage in combat: creatures with flying and creatures with first strike, each more powerful with any of the Swords of X and Y or Umezawa's Jitte. So long as you can attack without losing a valuable hate piece you should, as any wasted turn could eventually result in losing the game. First strike is surprisingly valuable to this end, especially when paired with Umezawa's Jitte. Because of how combat works with first strike, a creature equipped with a Jitte will actually have either two more power or four more toughness, depending on which mode you decide to use (either applying the -1/-1 effects to the blocker/blocked creature or the +2/+2 effect to the equipped creature).
To aid in this general aim of taxation and weenie-style combat, the deck has a number of very powerful spells to keep our low-cost, "early game" spells potent into the late game: Armageddon, Ravages of War, Catastrophe, Cataclysm and Retribution of the Meek. Board wipes, such as Wrath of God, aren't so great in this deck since it relies so much on its creatures to carry the game, and while Austere Command would be lovely to have, six mana is already steep in a deck built around taxes, land destruction and Winter Orb. Catastrophe gets by on both these accounts as it is a third copy of Armageddon or an overpriced Wrath of God, serving as a great last resort when facing simply too many creatures--or players.
To sum up the strategy in short: play hatebears, tax aggressively and destroy your opponent's resources to keep the pressure on.
Card Breakdown: the Primary Cards
These are cards which should never really be cut from this deck if you want to keep it competitive. I've personally spent months testing many of the possible cards for this deck and almost every day I'll devote some time to researching other possible additions or cuts. While I won't say my list is perfect, I will say that I have spent enough time with it (and the Death & Taxes archetype) to have a good feel for the things it needs and the things it can live without.
Stoneforge Mystic
Snapcaster Mage
Reclamation Sage
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
Bane of Progress
Avenger of Zendikar
Craterhoof Behemoth
Solemn Simulacrum
Fleshbag Marauder or Merciless Executioner
Wood Elves
Flametongue Kavu
Mystic Snake
Literally anything worth bonding to Deadeye Navigator
Aura Shards
Pandemonium
Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Do note, however, that the Gryff does not interact with "as X enters the battlefield" or "X enters enters the battlefield with Y" effects, like Iona, Shield of Emeria or Triskelion respectively.
Each of the Swords of X and Y provide important protection from removal and, because of this protection, can also connect past an opponent's defenses, crucial for exploiting their powerful triggered effects. Umezawa's Jitte (like Fire and Ice) can remove small threats or buff the equipped creature, or even gain life if you need to stay alive just long enough to win. Sword of the Animist provides ramp in a deck sorely needing it and shines most after you've wiped the lands with an Armageddon. Skullclamp, aside from being a means of putting down a bear that's hurting you too much, punishes the opponent for removing one of your creatures, and the minor buff to power means that Thalia takes one fewer turn to hit for lethal commander damage.
Although it is often seen as a card used to generate card advantage with X/1 creatures, Skullclamp also serves as a kind of tax by dissuading removal.
Maybeboard/"Benched" Cards
While my list is really tight, there is a large number of cards that could be included. My choices reflect my meta more than anything else, though many of these cards aren't included because of their mana cost or simply because their effect is narrow or lack enough impact.
Other noteworthy cards:
Part IV: Weaknesses
This deck has a few major weaknesses that should be addressed:
It is not that great in 4+ player games
A lot of this is simply because you can't hit enough players all at once. That's not to say this deck will fold, or even that it won't put up a fight. It just means that you have to change your strategy. Multiplayer games draw in more degenerate decks, usually ones focused on grinding down or comboing out and those are the decks you have to target. Sell yourself not as the fun police but the protector of the game and use this political leverage to eliminate the bigger threats. Then, once the most threatening decks have been eliminated or neutered, shift focus to the next biggest threat. Ultimately games like this will rely on cards like Retribution of the Meek, Cataclysm and Dusk // Dawn to keep things manageable for you. Armageddon and its ilk should only be played when you know your are close to either losing or winning. Winter Orb and Hokori should also be played with extreme caution, as most players won't easily forget the salt these cards like to rub in their wounds.
It is also not great at catching up
This deck does not poses any infinite combos. It does not have any source of extreme card drawn. It cannot repair itself quickly if its hand and field is wiped out completely (like it could have been against Leovold, RIP you bastard). In the face of cards like Elesh Norn, Iona, Dread of Night or Night of Souls' Betrayal, this deck will struggle until the card is answered.
What Thalia has, however, is a strong suite of disruptive cards and a design that is meant to answer these problems before they even occur. Mana denial, land destruction and an aggressive-control style means that the opponent is either dead or very nearly dead by the time they can play these answers, at which point this deck will usually have the means to answer that in kind. When playing this deck, it is crucial to remember that: Thalia prevents the bad stuff before it even happens, not answer it after it's already resolved.
Anything packing a bunch of removal is going to be rough
Jund and Junk decks, anything devoted to removing killing creatures (King Macar, the Gold-Cursed and Horobi, Death's Wail come to mind) or anything generally devoted to punishing creature strategies, like Humility, will make for difficult games. Equipment and mana denial will help in these games.
Cataclysm excels not only as a kind of pseudo-Balance--it kills planeswalkers, too!
Part V: Personal Aside
If you've read this far, I want to thank you for sticking with me as I explain my thoughts on this deck. D&T has been with me for most of my time playing Magic: it was the first Legacy (and also competitive) deck and though I've tried other archetypes I always came back to it because there is just nothing quite like it. As a creature deck that plays more like a control deck than an aggro deck, it occupies a unique position in its format as both a predator of greedy strategies and proof that a deck does not need to contain staples to do well in the format. I've met many D&T players in my time and I can say confidently that they are among some of the most brilliant players in Legacy. After all, they chose a deck with no guarantees, no game-breaking locks and no auto-win combos. Instead they opted for a strange, rickety machine that starts off with a Plains and a Vial and ends with the opponent staring at their hand in anger, beaten by a bunch of 2/1's and 2/2's that, on the surface, don't seem to change the game that much at all. The feeling of winning with a bunch of cards once dismissed as "White Weenies," of toppling a $3,000 deck with one maybe a third its value, is something unparalleled for me. It's that rush of narrow victory, knowing your opponent was only one mana way from removing a Thalia, or casting their Jace, the Mind-Sculptor, or attaining a lethal Storm count that kept me coming back to it time and time again.
Last year I sold my Legacy Death & Taxes. I know it's only a deck, that there are literally hundreds of thousands of others decks running identical cards out there right now. But it was also my deck. Memories of travelling to a GP with friends, late nights brewing online with strangers, practicing hands and discovering some tiny little interaction that, actually, gave the deck some new tool to pick apart the opponent's the next time I played--everything about it was also linked to me and to my memories. Selling it for money--just enough to scrape by, not even enough to do anything meaningful--was likely losing selling your first car. It was like losing a friend.
So, it is my hope that this primer helps anyone else unfortunate enough to be in my position--and for anyone else who has wanted to play D&T in a format other than Legacy! I am open to discussion of certain card choices pr critiques of the deck in general and will try to keep this primer up to date.
Thanks, and as always--keep taxing!
OH LORD THAT PIMP.
Maybe it's because I play my deck more old school, but my list usually has about seven three-drops and it hasn't really felt top-heavy.
I also don't see much value in copying a winning list straight up. Yes, I understand the logic (that is, it placed well so it must do something right) but I think, especially in a deck like D&T, the player piloting that deck also matters. Some of us are more comfortable with an aggressive deck, others like myself prefer a more controlling style, and others (apparently, since I haven't been keeping up) like to splash. None of them are really wrong, just approaching the concept of D&T differently.
The 2/1 trend is more likely for balance. You get an awesome effect for little cost, but it dies to a stiff breeze. Such is life under the NWO.
I'm not sold on x/1s being terrible. We can avoid the downsides pretty easily. It's the effect I'm more concerned with--and I like the consistency the Mare will hypothetically add.
I agree with your points regarding Avenger and StP (or vial or equipment). I would never run 4 for this reason and I'd be hesitant to drop one if another tax was already in effect.
However I think it's thoroughly better than most of the other lackluster options we have in Censor and Spirit. It needs testing (as everyone has already said) but my hypothesis is that it will see some kind of play. Even as a singleton I like it. It lends more consistency to the deck while giving us fliers to annoy planeswalkers and get SoFI/Jitte activations.
But I'm seeing it as less a combo hater (really, as you said, Thalia isn't that much better anyway) and more as a way to really beat up on Pyromancer and fair blue decks. Casting a Jace for 6 or Lilly for 5 really gets my engine revving, let alone nerfing their cantrips and removal (if an StP for three is bad for us, imagine how terrible it is for Blade!)
I'm eager to get a few copies and test it. Maybe that angel, too. Mostly I'm excited to see better hatebears come out.
This is what I'll be trying out. Maybe this Pegasus will pull me out of my Legacy slump!
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Vryn Wingmare
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
I think being able to consistently keep the Thalia tax on the board will be the selling point for the Mare. We always talk about mulling aggressively since we lack card selection, but by adding this card I think our hands will be a bit more forgiving--on top of the awesome flying stapled to it.
6 taxes, 9 fliers AND my favorite "bad" card: Mangara (or Crusader, Censor, Brimaz or whatever). It'll be Christmas in July for us, boys/girls.
Yeah this guy replaces maybe Avenger or whatever flex you're running, if anything. Wisp is basically sacrosanct in this deck as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah 2 seems like a solid number. Making our StP's nigh-uncastable with multiples/Thalia out is a bit concerning but most opponents are probably hurting more if that's the case.
It's great that we've received two neat toys in Origins though, even if one is just a bit too expensive.
*sigh* So close. If it had some other ability like Flash, or if it was a 3/4 for WWW instead...
We've supported 4-drops before, though. Maybe she can work.
It really isn't. We already have a better 3/3 for 2 and she has flying and vigilance. And that's if this Glory Seeker that says "kill me before I become a problem" survives a turn AND connects--something that cannot be relied on in a format like Legacy where if a creature lives for a turn it is a stroke of luck.
I hope I'm not coming across as a dick. That's not my intention. I'm just saying don't dilute your deck with him. He's neat, he's cool, I'll probably play him.in EDH. But is he a sound legacy card? Not by a long, looong shot.
Which was also in said Maverick's sideboard.
You know, it seems like Spirit would be mandatory in the main... and yet I couldn't disagree more. She attacks the possibility of something and does nothing to stop the actual cards in their hand. Meanwhile, you don't want to attack with her because you want to keep the tax going in the hopes that it is really putting the screws to your opponent. I've found myself twiddling my thumbs with her in play, knowing that they'll block her in an instant while my opponent feels no pressure and will naturally draw into removal.
Spirit is at her best in a meta of combo and hard control like Miracles; a meta where Snapcaster's Ambush Viper mode is the only thing that will block her. This isn't that meta right now.
I like it where it is now in my list. A silver bullet for the occasional blowout or lock-down. As a main deck card, though? I want my opponents to struggle over which card to blow their Lightning Bolt on. Spirit just isn't that card.
I only saw Relic once (NicFit) and it was decent. My plan was to use it vs UR Delver primarily for the T ability. However, in retrospect, I am not so confident in it. The cantrip effect is nice, but I think it'll turn back into either Ratchet Bomb or Grafdigger's Cage.
I'm also leaning towards cutting the Gut Shots and adding a Sunlance and another bullet, probably Oblivion Ring or Ghostly Prison.
I am with you there on the numbers; two has been very solid for me. I can also see the merits of a single copy, too, but I prefer to see him more often than not.
Vial and Mangara are the best cards against them. I was fortunate to have both in one of my games; post-board, I remove a single SFM, Jitte and STP for Cataclym, E Tutor, Spirit, Needle and Judgment. Do note that Flickerwisp is good vs Standstill if you are slipping him into play off a Vial. Sometimes, especially when you do not have a Vial, you have to let them get the Standstill trigger; usually if you are landing a big threat like Brimaz/Mangara it doesn't hurt so much.
Wastelands usually aim for Factories; however, nabbing a Karakas is obviously good.
EDIT: if you expect Standstill a lot, consider SotL in a larger number.
3-2-1. Got an achievement for that one. I dropped and got cheesesteak and Voodoo Donuts (if any of you guys every make it to Portland, do yourself a favor and get some of the food from the joints in the area, especially the street vendors; it's all wicked good).
List was:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
10 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Gut Shot
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Rest in Peace
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Absolute Law
1 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
1 Pithing Needle
Matches were:
Omni: 0-2
Fish (with SEAHUNTER!!): 1-1
Old School UWr Standstill: 2-0
UWR Stoneblade: 2-1
UB Tezz: 2-0
Jund Punishing NicFit: 0-2
Some quick notes:
-Anyone not running Mangara is wrong. He, as he always does, pulled my ass out of some many fires yesterday. My UWr Blade opponent audibly griped over who to kill: Mangara, SFM or Thalia. This is what people aren't getting about Mangara of Corondor: it's not that he's an aggressive threat against combo or an all-star against tempo; it's that, in the matchups where there is spot removal and the game goes long, where we want to keep a threat like an SFM or a Revoker in play, Mangara is simply superb--not because he removes stuff but because he magnetizes your opponent's removal and draws their attention. He forces them to choose between losing the game sooner, to a large threat, or later by being unable to cast spells. Someone will disagree, I'm sure, but I'm standing my ground on this one: until something shakes either the deck or the meta up, Mangara should be a staple in most lists.
-The single Spirit in my board was perfect for me. I always feel like she clutters up my main and, since I have Tutor, I always had her when I needed her. I also had her naturally in my game-three opener against UWR Blade; he was very tilted at that point (Batterskull+SoFI did some heavy lifting in the previous game) and he just lost it when she hit play on the second turn. She got suited up with a SoFI a few turns later and proceeded to pummel (and even without the draw trigger, I am still more on the SoFI train than any other Sword of X/Y mentioned previously).
-E Tutor was such a relief to have. It really took the stress off my natural draws and having Canopy also made it less disadvantageous in some situations.
-The side needs work. I felt very light on hate for the rounds I lost and my fish matchup was pretty rough without Sunlance. Tidal Warrior was a card. :[ Containment Priest was fun vs Seahunter, though!
-I am dropping Crusader for another Avenger, I think, or maybe a Brimaz or Linvala. Regardless, evasion > pro GB and he's just really frail for the meta right now, given his role in the deck. My blade opponent was crapping his trousers, though; he apparently had no idea that MC has double strike.
-on the whole, I loved my list. It's very classic, much like the days of Innistrad-era Legacy. Even in the games I lost, I still felt like I was in it most of the game, or that I had a chance to rip something.