The things I want to say to a certain person right now but eh, what's the point?
Here is what I pray for IF the RL never goes away and we wake up one day and USeas and Volcanics are $1,000 a pop.
I pray that Legacy and Vintage totally die and that all the RL cards drop so much in value that all you collectors lose a fortune. I pray that with all my soul because YOU ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DESTROYING THE ETERNAL FORMATS WITH YOUR GREED AND SELFISHNESS.
And may that day come while I am still walking this Earth. Because I will be laughing my ass off every single minute of the onslaught.
So, I have subscribed SCG Premium for a week to watch Jim Davi's Shardless BUG video coverage and of course decided to browse through other articles to make the most of my purchase and found an article, written by Drew Lewin in which he provided an insightful point of view regarding Brainstrom and strongly indicated that the card is safe to stay with us. I had mixed feelings about whether or not I should copy-paste Premium material just to find it is now available for everyone. Here's the link and here's the spoiler with a quote for easier discussing:
This round of bannings was probably the single best possible outcome for Legacy as a format. Treasure Cruise, a card that rewards grindy blue decks to a ridiculous degree, is gone. In its place is a format that we had prior to Khans of Tarkir, but with a valuable addition.
No, not Dig Through Time.
Brainstorm.
I'll explain.
Ever since Brainstorm and Ponder were restricted in Vintage, Legacy aficionados have had this sort of Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Every round of bannings, there would be this fear - however unsubstantiated - that this would be the time that Wizards decided to axe Brainstorm, and the entire format along with it.
Make no mistake, Brainstorm gives the format its identity. I'm not saying it's not oppressive, I'm saying that Legacy isn't Legacy without the card Brainstorm. There would be other decks, a new top tier, all that. But it would be a new format. A lot of iconic cards would be substantially worse, weird fringe decks would become too inconsistent without the capacity to rely on the best filtering spell of all time, and so on. Brainstorm does a lot of work behind the scenes to make the trains run on time.
It also creates a very clean ideological standard. I know nobody who plays Legacy and is agnostic toward Brainstorm's existence. Either they're very pro-Brainstorm: "it's the best card, I want to play Legacy because it's so good, and I feel good casting it, and it's so hard to play, and I feel so smart when I get it right, and this is Legacy, this is what it is for me, this is why I enter the tournament, to cast Brainstorm"; or they're very anti-Brainstorm: "it's so absurdly oppressive, I'm going to play a bunch of underpowered artifacts and/or green and white two-drops that punish the jerks who decided to show up with a bunch of fiddly b******t today." It doesn't matter which side of the ideological spectrum you're on, it just matters that one exists.
That, in a nutshell, is what I feel is missing about Modern. There's nothing in it that inspires strong feelings. It's diverse, sure, and it's rigorously maintained in the weeks before a Pro Tour, sure, but I don't know many people who have strong feelings about any particular card in Modern. The format's identity is "it's diverse and reasonably well-balanced," which is about as compelling as telling me that your favorite breakfast food is granola and yogurt because it's really, really good for you. It's indisputably true, but it is in no way interesting.
Legacy has heroes and villains in deck selection. No one valorizes the people who show up with Delvers and cantrips, just like nobody roots against the Davids who show up with Lava Spikes in a room full of Brainstorm-slinging Goliaths. Part of what makes Legacy interesting as a format is that the villain actually wins a whole lot of the time. The villain is legitimately favored, and most of the people in a room want to be the villain because it's fun. It creates tension. It creates narrative. When you turn on coverage and see one person attacking for two and one person casting Brainstorm, you know who you're supposed to root for. You know who's favored, and you watch the game to see if the person who isn't casting Brainstorm can somehow pull it out. You know that they built their deck with the villain in mind, and so the table is already set for this story.
If you showed me a match between a person casting Siege Rhino and Dark Confidant and another person casting Sakura Tribe-Elder and Scapeshift, I don't know who I'm supposed to root for. None of those cards inspire strong feelings. Sure, one is a combo deck, but nobody is a hero or a villain. They're people playing Magic, and that's fine. It's just lacks the narrative quality of the first match.
I don't think that anti-Brainstorm tournament-goers actually want Brainstorm to go away. I don't think they want Wizards of the Coast to slay the dragon for them. I think they love to hate Brainstorm. It's The Story of the format. It's their White Whale. They will kill it or be killed by the desire to slay it on their own terms, and that makes for a good story.
All of this to say: Wizards of the Coast banned a blue card in Legacy that has the game text "draw three cards" on it that was worse than Brainstorm by any metric you care to name. They lined up a bunch of good cards in the format, saw Brainstorm at the front of the line and Treasure Cruise right behind it, and took out Treasure Cruise. At no point in the future will they ever touch Brainstorm. They can't. There's no excuse, in the context of this event, for that to happen.
Brainstorm is untouchable.
The identity of the format is safe.
While I find this article to be a legitimate comeback to those who wish to deny Brainstorm's freedom, the article left me wondering whether people really play non-blue decks just to beat Brainstorm. At least I play them because I like them, e.g. Punishing Jund is amazingly fun to play for me because of all the grinding, interacting, shuffling, various effects, strong cards, etc.
Anyway, it was a pleasure to read this article and a relief to be reassured about BS.
Thank you for this. As I've been saying all along, Brainstorm isn't going anywhere because when IT goes, so does Legacy and so do I.
Why are people convinced that breaking the Reserved list would mean WOTC just prints millions on millions of every Reserved cards? It's far more logical, from a business stand point, to remove the list, print the cards they want to into Standard, all little bit at a time. That way people who want the reserved cards are still cracking packs.
Any RL cards that would be okay for Standard aren't worth printing. Legacy needs dual lands BADLY. THAT'S what needs to be printed and Standard is NO place for dual lands.
You print them in a Legacy Masters set just like the Modern Masters set. They're Legacy legal ONLY. In fact, I can come up with a nice 150 card set of Legacy staples that would make WotC a crap ton of money.
And they can still make it a fairly limited print run if they're worried about "flooding" the market.
The issue is that it is a repeatable tutor that skirts mana costs, it's just too reliable.
Trust me, you ain't the only one that wants it unbanned, I got four here waiting to go, but you have to be realistic in your expectations you you will set yourself up for nothing but disappointment.
Okay, so I'll ask again. Anything on the banned list that, if taken off, will make any impact on Legacy for the better?
Likely later in the game, but in this matter it is not the speed that kills, it is the toolbox. Think of it as Maverik on total pure crack, you have GSZ if you want it, all the normal fun on off's like Teeg to solve the issues that might arise.
I think measuring a deck strictly by it's speed is a false target set up by the change in doctrine we have seen with the rise of Modern. The question of "What turn does it win on" is in my mind secondary to "How consistently will it win" and that is a question you likely do not want to be faced having to answer. See even if you do not get to see Survival, you can still play as a Maverick deck and that is nothing to scoff at. Unless you're playing the combo version (Bant normally) in which case you get filter and counters.
Edit:
@Stormscape:
How can you have "Master" in your name and seriously not give yourself the custom title "Master Wizard"?
Except this doesn't sound like a busted deck. Not when you have the following decks that can win on turn 1 or 2 consistently.
ANT
Belcher
Cheerios
Omni Tell
Oops All Spells
Reanimator
Show And Tell
Spanish Inquisition
TES
Yes, all these decks can essentially be stopped by one FoW with ANT and TES stoppable with taxing effects as well as counters.
But the same could be said about Survival decks.
Certainly you can't say, with the decks that currently exist in Legacy, that Survival would be the most powerful deck in the format and that 70% of the meta would play it. I don't believe it would be worse than any of the "busted" decks that we currently have. It would just be one more to add to the collection.
"Survival. Again, only one deck would play it. Elves. Would it make Elves really that much better?"
No, Elves would not be the deck to fear with it, we don't need it.
The deck you are worried about runs Loyal Retainer, Grizzlebees, Vengevine and Basking Rootwalla. That is something to worry about and it would see play.
Question, and I mean this seriously. What turn does that deck win on?
I am solidly in the camp of WOTC is not removing the reserve list not because it would make them more money (it would perticuarly in the SHORT TERM) but because it would cost them catastrophic money (long term). Funny thing about Legacy/EDH they are REALLY REALLY TRULY fun formats. where the difference between a 1.5 tier deck and a tier 1 deck is VERY small, Its a format that DOES NOT CHANGE, once your in with your deck or two you don't really modify stuff very much if at all. Axing the reserve list would kill Standard, people would buy and play legacy (its more fun) then they wouldn't play standard because they have ready access to cheap legacy (the more fun format) You can't influence Legacy without printing stuiped powerful cards, to get card sales back up to levels where it was before, (say you lose 30% of your hardcore standard players just 30%) they need to sell more packs to make up for these peoples standard decks they used to be buying all the time. They can't without threatening to destroy the game. Legacy is just too big to "shake up" without printing bonkers cards, and a LARGE number of them would be needed to make up sales......
Translation Quitting isn't the problem Migration is. Legacy/Vintage players don't buy as much product as Standard players. Each standard player that "Migrates" to Legacy/vintage is lost future sales. ALot of people would play legacy/Vintage if money wasn't the issue. Their is a population of people who play standard because its cheap, not because they enjoy it as the "best of all formats" Due to the size/debth/nature of legacy once they GO legacy their spending $$ are not coming back to WOTC.
What proof do you have that this will happen? Where is your evidence? Have you taken a survey? Do you KNOW how many Standard players would quit Standard and start playing Legacy?
The same argument could be made against Modern. Most of the cards in Modern are old. Once you have them, you have them. You don't need to buy more stock. So Modern players don't help the Standard bottom line either. And how many Standard players quit Standard to play Modern?
This is all just guesswork. You have absolutely NO proof to back ANY of this up.
One other thing. Standard is NOT cheap. Every 3 months you're spending hundreds of dollars on cards. I stopped playing Standard because I couldn't afford it anymore.
Once you buy into Legacy, you're done. In the long run, Legacy is MUCH cheaper than Standard.
Okay, here are my reasons for a few of the cards. Granted, I may be off base and maybe they're better off staying on. But I don't think they're no brainers as far as staying on the list.
I think some of them are.
Necro and Bargain. No more broken than Gris. Would only go in one deck. We wouldn't suddenly see a new archetype. In any case I think Bargain is much safer than Necro at least. It's no more busted than Gris.
Necro is definitely more broken, and requires less of an investment.
Bargain I have mixed feelings about it is six mana, but fewer color requirements, and enables perfect drawing while being subject to much less removal.
Mystical. It's still a narrow tutor as Enlightened is. Why are we so afraid of being able to get an instant or sorcery? Very few are game winners outside of Tendrils, EtW and Grape. At one time Mystical was legal and I didn't think it made a mess of Legacy then either. But okay. It's no big deal if this staya on.
It's narrow, but the power of its narrow subset of cards is higher. It fetches most combo wins, enabling essentially 8 copies of every finisher, and more redundancy and resiliency.
Also, when it was legal it was paired with Flash, so that is questionable.
Survival. Again, only one deck would play it. Elves. Would it make Elves really that much better?
I'm a bit confused as to why just normal survival wouldn't play it. Or is there something in recent printing that made the Survival deck no longer viable?
Also, yes. Elves is already very T1, a DTB on TheSource, pushing it with a card like Survival (Though I don't think Elves would play it) would have serious repercussions.
But I'd be cool with just the ones you said would shake up the format but we'd recover from it. If WotC would just take their head out of the sand on those few cards I think it would make for an even more interesting Legacy than we have now. Especially since 3 of those cards are NOT blue. Would help other decks that struggle against blue decks, especially Twist.
I am firmly of the belief that twist would do absolutely nothing in the format. It's worse that Hymm almost all of the time, and it's not something you want to be drawing into in the late game really. In the late game, in our hand-vomiting world, is there really a desire for a high-cmc twist?
Either way, it's no big deal to me. I'm fine with the way Legacy is now. I don't even own any of those cards because there was no need for me to keep them when I sold most of my non Legacy collection a short while ago. So off or on makes no difference to me.
I just think it would be an improvement.
I mean, I own survivals because I love toolbox decks to no end, and would build a more toolbox focused survival if unbanned.
So is there anything on the list that you think would make a difference if taken off without blowing Legacy up?
A big part of Magic's survival is that people care about the collectibility of the cards. It means they hang onto them, it means they come back to the game every once in a while. I can't count the number of times I've talked to somebody who said they had a bunch of old MtG cards like they were proud of having them, even if don't currently play, and often as not, those people do come back to try the game out again.
Even if most people understand how the market works, abolishing the reserve list wrecks the collective fantasy that we have as players, that our collection could appreciate in value over time - that it has some kind of connection to old, impossibly valuable pieces of cardboard. Like it or not, the reserve list is one of the biggest consistent elements of the success of the game, because of that fantasy. Take it away, and sure, most players will be happier in the short term to be able to play old formats, but as time passes, people will just have a little bit less reason to be invested in the game, and a little bit less, and less, every year. Vintage/Legacy play won't be enough of a draw for most people if it isn't a way to secure your investment in the game, and eventually the game will peter out and die, or at least become much less mainstream.
We already can see this in Magic emulators like Cockatrice: people like the idea of being able to play with every card, and so they download the program. Some tiny fraction of them who care about obsessively tuning their decks actually stick with it, though, because without the sense that having a collection actually matters, the game loses a great deal of its charm, and people go back to playing regular Magic.
And it isn't like the Reserved List is exactly full of cards that are worth reprinting. Dual lands and P9 are overpowered and would aid no modern format. Most of the rest of the List is chaff. There's a couple of cards like Thunder Spirit that would be nice for limited but irrelevant for constructed, and there's another handful that would be make nice reprints for Commander, like Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary, or Sliver Queen, but for the most part the List is just a promise not to mine the secondary market for profit, which I can't see as much of a problem for anyone.
Here is why this whole argument is totally irrelevant.
1) The players who play eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage do NOT contribute to the fantasy and wonder of this game that in any way matters to the health of Magic in general, that health being customers who spend money on new product that WotC puts out.
I MAY buy a couple of cards once in a while if they are Legacy playable. But I have no interest in Standard, Modern or Limited. What I spend on WotC's product can't in any way keep them in business. I am a dead entity to them as are most Vintage and Legacy players.
2) It is already known that Standard and Modern cards will NOT hold value or go up by much. In Standard, when rotation comes, most cards lose almost all their value. The few that become Modern and Legacy playable might retain their value or go up a little depending on how much play they get. Modern will never get out of control like Legacy because those cards can always be reprinted as they are NOT on the RL. Players know this.
So again, where is the mystery and fantasy of cards retaining "value" when the players who actually spend money on WotC product KNOW THAT THEIR CARDS ARE NEVER GOING TO BECOME THAT EXPENSIVE?
Anybody who is getting into Standard or Modern as an "investment" is daft. At best a card may go up $10 or $20. But you're not going to see the kind of prices that you see in Vintage ($6,000 for a Black Lotus) or Legacy ($700 for a Tabernacle or $350 for an USea) It will NEVER HAPPEN because WotC won't LET IT HAPPEN.
The people who care about prices add nothing to WotC's bottom line.
Now, if you want to use this as an excuse that WotC therefore has no incentive to get rid of the RL, fine. But please let's stop with the "OMG if they kill the RL it will kill the game."
IT WON'T because the people who spend money on this game DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT THE RL.
Hell, most of them don't even play Legacy. And if they do, they MAYBE buy a couple of "new" Legacy cards like Abrupt Decay or whatever a year. And when they do, they don't buy packs to get these cards. They go to Ebay or SCG and buy from them. So no money STILL goes into WotC's pockets. It's just old Standard product that was already paid for that changes hands from one person to another. WotC is TOTALLY OUT OF THE PICTURE.
Finally, and this is why it makes more sense than ever for WotC to print the most commonly used cards from the RL in a limited set that would NOT be Standard or Modern legal.
Those cards would be in NEW product that would make NEW money for WotC. Yes, they would actually INCREASE their profits if they got rid of the RL and printed the following cards in addition to FoW and Wasteland which are not on the RL.
Dual Lands
Tabernacle
LED
That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure they could put together an FTV set with enough cards to have that set sell like crazy. And it wouldn't be cheap by any stretch of the imagination. But it would at least put new cards that are desperately needed to keep Legacy alive. Vintage is a lost cause because you can't reprint a card that is up to $6,000. But Legacy's cards aren't really that much more expensive than Goyf which is NOT on the RL. So it's safe to reprint them. The drop in price would be negligible.
But that doesn't matter anyway. The people who want these cards to play don't spend money on new product.
The pure collectors, who do absolutely NOTHING for the community in any manner shape or form? They'll have a chance to sell off their collection before the reprints as long as WotC announces it way in advance.
The ONLY reason that WotC is not chucking the RL and doing the above, since it will CLEARLY make them more money comes down to 1 of 2 things. These are the ONLY things that make sense.
Either
1) They were threatened with a lawsuit if they reprinted the cards and don't want to take the chance of losing it
or
2) They were specifically ordered by Hasbro to NEVER do away with the RL because of a possible PR backlash.
Essentially, you have to weigh the possibility of either of these two things against the profit made from reprinting the cards.
Now, what happens to WotC is Vintage and Legacy totally die? Probably nothing because as I said, those formats simply don't make them money and since they're doing well enough off of just Standard and Modern, they probably don't even care.
That's the reality. But PLEASE...can we STOP with the gloom and doom if God forbid WotC took the RL and burned it to the ground?
Nope, I'm not doing this anymore. So what DO you think about unbanning Yawgwill? Would it make storm that much stronger? They already have PIF. No other deck would play it that I could think of. I think Mana Drain would be fine too. How much mana are you getting in a format where the curve essentially tops out at 2? Of course MD is already expensive as hell and if were unbanned in Legacy I can only imagine how much that card would go up to. We don't need another $500 card in Legacy that's a 4 of in every deck running blue.
I still think EC, MT and BV can come off the list. Maybe even Recruiter.
In short, a lot of the current banned list is a relic from an earlier time in Magic. Aside from the power 9 and a few cards, there really aren't a lot of card on that list (I don't count the commander cards) that really need to stay on. Maybe one day I'll post the cards that absolutely can't come off for any reason without totally breaking the format in half. It's a lot fewer than what we have now. But an outdated view of the list by WotC is essentially what is keeping it what it is. We've seen that so far with the unbanning of Land Tax and WGD having ZERO impact on the format.
It's time to come out of the stone ages.
** EDIT ** Okay, here are all the cards I think could come off of Legacy without totally destroying the format.
Fine, would shake things up, but would be recovered from.
Mana Drain
Mana Vault
Dangerous, but I personally do not have a base for this fear.
Mystical Tutor
I really don't think that's a good idea.
Necropotence
Yawgmoth's Bargain
These are broken, and really shouldn't be in legacy. I don't think they add anything, and they could really destroy the format.
Survival Of The Fittest
What has come into the format in the past 4 years that you believe will effectively combat survival? Or combat current decks being coopted by survival?
Okay, here are my reasons for a few of the cards. Granted, I may be off base and maybe they're better off staying on. But I don't think they're no brainers as far as staying on the list.
Necro and Bargain. No more broken than Gris. Would only go in one deck. We wouldn't suddenly see a new archetype. In any case I think Bargain is much safer than Necro at least. It's no more busted than Gris.
Mystical. It's still a narrow tutor as Enlightened is. Why are we so afraid of being able to get an instant or sorcery? Very few are game winners outside of Tendrils, EtW and Grape. At one time Mystical was legal and I didn't think it made a mess of Legacy then either. But okay. It's no big deal if this staya on.
Survival. Again, only one deck would play it. Elves. Would it make Elves really that much better?
But I'd be cool with just the ones you said would shake up the format but we'd recover from it. If WotC would just take their head out of the sand on those few cards I think it would make for an even more interesting Legacy than we have now. Especially since 3 of those cards are NOT blue. Would help other decks that struggle against blue decks, especially Twist.
Either way, it's no big deal to me. I'm fine with the way Legacy is now. I don't even own any of those cards because there was no need for me to keep them when I sold most of my non Legacy collection a short while ago. So off or on makes no difference to me.
Nope, I'm not doing this anymore. So what DO you think about unbanning Yawgwill? Would it make storm that much stronger? They already have PIF. No other deck would play it that I could think of. I think Mana Drain would be fine too. How much mana are you getting in a format where the curve essentially tops out at 2? Of course MD is already expensive as hell and if were unbanned in Legacy I can only imagine how much that card would go up to. We don't need another $500 card in Legacy that's a 4 of in every deck running blue.
I still think EC, MT and BV can come off the list. Maybe even Recruiter.
In short, a lot of the current banned list is a relic from an earlier time in Magic. Aside from the power 9 and a few cards, there really aren't a lot of card on that list (I don't count the commander cards) that really need to stay on. Maybe one day I'll post the cards that absolutely can't come off for any reason without totally breaking the format in half. It's a lot fewer than what we have now. But an outdated view of the list by WotC is essentially what is keeping it what it is. We've seen that so far with the unbanning of Land Tax and WGD having ZERO impact on the format.
It's time to come out of the stone ages.
** EDIT ** Okay, here are all the cards I think could come off of Legacy without totally destroying the format.
The best compromise in my view is to keep the list but take the dual lands off it. These are really the only especially important cards for formats other than Vintage on the list; everything else is banned in Legacy or simply junk like Beastwalkers. The only exception I'm aware of that's worth more than about the $40 Natural Order goes for is Gaea's Cradle, which is priced in line with a number of non-reserved cards in Modern and is relevant only to one Legacy archetype (so the limited supply doesn't matter so much). It's perfectly fine for Vintage to be ringfenced, and even without the reserved list it's unlikely any of the real power cards would be reprinted even as promos.
Duals weren't the reason the reserved list exists; they were moderate-value cards that had already seen four print runs by that point, and I doubt anyone thought "If we reserve Savannah now, in 20 years it will be worth as much as an unreserved Tempest uncommon".
What's more, removing the duals - which even now are on a par with expensive cards in Modern (only two are worth more than Tarmogoyf, and then not by much) - is ultimately better for speculators and investors than keeping them forever unprintable. Right now the most expensive non-reserved cards in Magic are those that are used in Modern; Legacy has a smaller playerbase because the limited number of duals in circulation limits both the total number of players and the intake of new players in the market for Natural Orders, Glimpses of Natures and whatever non-Elf-related cards they may want, the established players already having their sets. Removing duals from the list allows Wizards to bring in new players with the same sorts of products as their Modern Masters series, and reducing the price of utility cards used in every deck is exactly what Wizards should do to bring players in - we've already seen them reprint one set of fetchlands to bring players into Modern, and the other is undoubtedly on the way in Battle for Zendikar.
It's not as though the cards would ever be reprinted in a Standard-legal set - original duals aren't wanted in Modern (not by Wizards, at any rate) and, as Wizards has made a fortune over the years printing endless variations on the dual land theme, they're never going to want to release new copies in large numbers because it restricts future design space and reduces interest in new variant dual lands. So any suggestion that eliminating the reserved list would cause prices to crash or Wizards to flood the market is sheer fantasy. Most reserved list cards are worth next to nothing except the headline names, and most of the rest are on a par with or cheaper than high value nonreserved cards.
Unfortunately, people can't see this "reality" and can only look at the doomsday scenario that they have envisioned in their mind and what has been perpetuated over the years because of the Chronicles debacle and pure irrational fear.
Great point. Regardless, it isn't going to change what is ultimately going to come down.
And that is nothing.
Because WotC still has its head stuck in the sand and nothing is going to get its head out of it.
Besides the point that Wotc will never be given permission by Hasbro to even consider abolishing the reserve list. I think the biggest problem is that abolishing the reserve list will enhance mtg experience for some but an absolute worst case scenario could doom Mtg altogether. I don't believe it would ever happen but that's the tradeoff that Wotc is just not willing to risk. Some people will always be frustrated by that position, but it's clear Mtg can survive on just newer formats.
I actually think if Wotc had reversed course at an earlier time, it might've been possible. now that it's a serious financial commitment above just a hobby; I believe it's too late for Wotc to intervene or at least Wotc believes that.
Destroying the reserve list would not damage MtG in reference to WoTC at all. The formats they are directly involved in: Standard, Modern, and Limited, are totally unaffected by the reserve list, and any action taken on it.
That, I believe is a false statement. Those formats are indirectly affected by the reserve list. If the reserve list were abolished, I see 1 of three things happening:
1. Players quit in droves, angry that their "investment" has "tanked"
2. Players join in droves, happy that they can play in a format that is all of a sudden affordable.
3. The player total remains static.
If 1 happens, then there will be less players playing the game. Less people in stores playing provides less "atmosphere" which discourages newer people from finding out about the game and joining. Thus less sales for Standard, Modern and Limited. Bad for business.
If 2 happens, there will be many more people playing the game. More atmosphere, the game grows, and sales go up. This is good for business.
If 3 happens, there are the same amount joining as leaving, the game stays static (or rising/falling slowly). This is "bad" for business, as business wants the game to grow (and the quicker the better).
Ultimately, it comes down to whether WotC believes that more people join than will leave the game if they kill the RL and reprint desired cards. I believe the game is at or headed to that point very shortly, and hopefully they can be convinced that it will be ultimately beneficial to get rid of the RL to keep the influx of players growing.
Killing a format (Legacy/Vintage) is never good for the growth of the game, and it's only a matter of time before the RL does that to those formats.
Here's how I see it in regard to your point number 1.
Players quitting in droves?
Let's see. Standard and Modern players won't quit because they already know that their cards can be reprinted. Standard players especially know that someday their cards will be worth very little outside of a few exceptions. The RL has no effect on Standard and Modern players whatsoever.
Okay, so who is left? Well, you have EDH players. I'm not exactly sure how they'd feel. They're only playing one fs in their decks anyway and very few cards that are actually on the RL. Plus, EDH players are a different breed. I think they actually play this game more for fun than probably anybody else. Sure, they can be competitive, but they don't get as caught up in the formal competitive aspect of the game as Standard, Modern and Legacy players who go to many events for the sole purpose of winning. I think EDH players will be fine with the RL going away or not caring at all.
So that leaves us with Legacy and Vintage players. Forget Vintage. That's already a lost cause with Black Lotus at $6,000. That leaves us with Legacy which I believe is the format most affected by the RL with the most to gain or lose. So let's look at it objectively.
Taking point #1, players leaving in droves. Who exactly would leave? Would players already invested in the format, playing it because they enjoy it and NOT because their cards are an investment, leave? I know I wouldn't. What do I care how much the cards cost? I already have them, as well as everybody at our LGS. I seriously doubt any of them would quit either. That would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Are you going to enjoy PLAYING Legacy any less because some of the cards went down in value a little? I know I don't care.
That leaves us with those who have RL cards who don't play the format and only have those cards to make money. They will sell off their cards. So what? They're not playing the game anyway. They're not adding to the Magic community in any way. They don't buy Standard or Modern product. They put no money in WotC's pocket. So they serve no purpose whatsoever. Let them sell their cards. I say good ridden.
So what we now have left is the player/investor. This is the person who plays Legacy. Loves Legacy and also loves that maybe someday when they feel their too old to play, they can sell their cards and make some money on them.
How would they react? That will depend on what's more important to them. Playing a game they love or making money off of it.
Now, those who got in early will probably not care as much because they spent so little on their cards anyway. Those that got in late may be a little angry, especially if they bought USeas for $350 and now suddenly they're down to $175. Of course there is still the time differential between the reprints and the price drop. If these people feel getting their investment back is more important than playing the game they love, they will sell off as soon as the announcement is made and quit Magic. Still, this doesn't affect Standard or Modern as these people don't buy any new product. So again, this has no effect on WotC. And then there will be those who feel that playing is more important than making money and they will stay.
The net effect should be minimal. Maybe a 10% dropoff of Legacy players from the old guard.
BUT...What about all the NEW players dropping the RL attracts? Players who have been staying away from Legacy because of the cost can now enter the format and most likely will.
The final question then, and this is the one that nobody can answer, is how many of these players currently play Standard and/or Modern and how many of them will continue to play Standard and/or Modern after they have started playing Legacy?
That is the unknown that is keeping WotC from dropping the RL and reprinting these cards. The only way to get a handle on this issue is for WotC to put out a world wide survey of Standard and Modern players to find out who would continue to play those formats if Legacy was suddenly affordable.
Prospective customers would not immediately start playing Legacy because they know nothing about the format. They would have to first be introduced to Magic casually like everybody else and then decide if they even want to play competitive Magic. Let's not forget all the kitchen table players who don't care about any of this. How many of those people make up WotC's revenue? How many limited players who do nothing but just buy packs to play limited make up WotC's revenue?
The problem with the whole RL issue is that there are just too many unknowns to make any informed decision. There is no way to tell what the net effect will be. As a company, one that needs to be responsible to its stock holders and employees, WotC can't make any kind if drastic move like this, even if they were willing to say "screw the RL" without having a solid handle on what the outcome would be.
Given that the state of Magic in general is probably at its highest revenue wise in its history, there is probably little incentive for WotC to rock the boat unless it had enough market research to justify getting rid of the RL.
This is why, as sad as it is for me to say this, it is highly unlikely that the RL will ever be done away with. Financially, it's too big a risk without knowing exactly what the repercussions would be.
To the person who I was arguing with before. You can still "responsibly" reprint dual lands so that the prices do not tank. They'll go down a little and that's it. And then eventually go back up again. But there will still be more in circulation so that more people can play.
You might realize, i just asked some question, i didn´t give any answers.
So the consersation had to end, because you had no real answers.
If i would tell you i hope you don´t live to see the day to prove me wrong, dont take it the wrong way ^^
Actually I was responding to the guy with the long winded explanation of why high prices are good for Legacy. Just didn't feel like quoting his long post.
Here is what I pray for IF the RL never goes away and we wake up one day and USeas and Volcanics are $1,000 a pop.
I pray that Legacy and Vintage totally die and that all the RL cards drop so much in value that all you collectors lose a fortune. I pray that with all my soul because YOU ARE THE PEOPLE WHO ARE DESTROYING THE ETERNAL FORMATS WITH YOUR GREED AND SELFISHNESS.
And may that day come while I am still walking this Earth. Because I will be laughing my ass off every single minute of the onslaught.
Do not flame and troll users.
- Rai.
Thank you for this. As I've been saying all along, Brainstorm isn't going anywhere because when IT goes, so does Legacy and so do I.
Any RL cards that would be okay for Standard aren't worth printing. Legacy needs dual lands BADLY. THAT'S what needs to be printed and Standard is NO place for dual lands.
You print them in a Legacy Masters set just like the Modern Masters set. They're Legacy legal ONLY. In fact, I can come up with a nice 150 card set of Legacy staples that would make WotC a crap ton of money.
And they can still make it a fairly limited print run if they're worried about "flooding" the market.
Okay, so I'll ask again. Anything on the banned list that, if taken off, will make any impact on Legacy for the better?
Except this doesn't sound like a busted deck. Not when you have the following decks that can win on turn 1 or 2 consistently.
ANT
Belcher
Cheerios
Omni Tell
Oops All Spells
Reanimator
Show And Tell
Spanish Inquisition
TES
Yes, all these decks can essentially be stopped by one FoW with ANT and TES stoppable with taxing effects as well as counters.
But the same could be said about Survival decks.
Certainly you can't say, with the decks that currently exist in Legacy, that Survival would be the most powerful deck in the format and that 70% of the meta would play it. I don't believe it would be worse than any of the "busted" decks that we currently have. It would just be one more to add to the collection.
Question, and I mean this seriously. What turn does that deck win on?
What proof do you have that this will happen? Where is your evidence? Have you taken a survey? Do you KNOW how many Standard players would quit Standard and start playing Legacy?
The same argument could be made against Modern. Most of the cards in Modern are old. Once you have them, you have them. You don't need to buy more stock. So Modern players don't help the Standard bottom line either. And how many Standard players quit Standard to play Modern?
This is all just guesswork. You have absolutely NO proof to back ANY of this up.
One other thing. Standard is NOT cheap. Every 3 months you're spending hundreds of dollars on cards. I stopped playing Standard because I couldn't afford it anymore.
Once you buy into Legacy, you're done. In the long run, Legacy is MUCH cheaper than Standard.
So is there anything on the list that you think would make a difference if taken off without blowing Legacy up?
Here is why this whole argument is totally irrelevant.
1) The players who play eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage do NOT contribute to the fantasy and wonder of this game that in any way matters to the health of Magic in general, that health being customers who spend money on new product that WotC puts out.
I MAY buy a couple of cards once in a while if they are Legacy playable. But I have no interest in Standard, Modern or Limited. What I spend on WotC's product can't in any way keep them in business. I am a dead entity to them as are most Vintage and Legacy players.
2) It is already known that Standard and Modern cards will NOT hold value or go up by much. In Standard, when rotation comes, most cards lose almost all their value. The few that become Modern and Legacy playable might retain their value or go up a little depending on how much play they get. Modern will never get out of control like Legacy because those cards can always be reprinted as they are NOT on the RL. Players know this.
So again, where is the mystery and fantasy of cards retaining "value" when the players who actually spend money on WotC product KNOW THAT THEIR CARDS ARE NEVER GOING TO BECOME THAT EXPENSIVE?
Anybody who is getting into Standard or Modern as an "investment" is daft. At best a card may go up $10 or $20. But you're not going to see the kind of prices that you see in Vintage ($6,000 for a Black Lotus) or Legacy ($700 for a Tabernacle or $350 for an USea) It will NEVER HAPPEN because WotC won't LET IT HAPPEN.
The people who care about prices add nothing to WotC's bottom line.
Now, if you want to use this as an excuse that WotC therefore has no incentive to get rid of the RL, fine. But please let's stop with the "OMG if they kill the RL it will kill the game."
IT WON'T because the people who spend money on this game DON'T GIVE A RAT'S ASS ABOUT THE RL.
Hell, most of them don't even play Legacy. And if they do, they MAYBE buy a couple of "new" Legacy cards like Abrupt Decay or whatever a year. And when they do, they don't buy packs to get these cards. They go to Ebay or SCG and buy from them. So no money STILL goes into WotC's pockets. It's just old Standard product that was already paid for that changes hands from one person to another. WotC is TOTALLY OUT OF THE PICTURE.
Finally, and this is why it makes more sense than ever for WotC to print the most commonly used cards from the RL in a limited set that would NOT be Standard or Modern legal.
Those cards would be in NEW product that would make NEW money for WotC. Yes, they would actually INCREASE their profits if they got rid of the RL and printed the following cards in addition to FoW and Wasteland which are not on the RL.
Dual Lands
Tabernacle
LED
That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure they could put together an FTV set with enough cards to have that set sell like crazy. And it wouldn't be cheap by any stretch of the imagination. But it would at least put new cards that are desperately needed to keep Legacy alive. Vintage is a lost cause because you can't reprint a card that is up to $6,000. But Legacy's cards aren't really that much more expensive than Goyf which is NOT on the RL. So it's safe to reprint them. The drop in price would be negligible.
But that doesn't matter anyway. The people who want these cards to play don't spend money on new product.
The pure collectors, who do absolutely NOTHING for the community in any manner shape or form? They'll have a chance to sell off their collection before the reprints as long as WotC announces it way in advance.
The ONLY reason that WotC is not chucking the RL and doing the above, since it will CLEARLY make them more money comes down to 1 of 2 things. These are the ONLY things that make sense.
Either
1) They were threatened with a lawsuit if they reprinted the cards and don't want to take the chance of losing it
or
2) They were specifically ordered by Hasbro to NEVER do away with the RL because of a possible PR backlash.
Essentially, you have to weigh the possibility of either of these two things against the profit made from reprinting the cards.
Now, what happens to WotC is Vintage and Legacy totally die? Probably nothing because as I said, those formats simply don't make them money and since they're doing well enough off of just Standard and Modern, they probably don't even care.
That's the reality. But PLEASE...can we STOP with the gloom and doom if God forbid WotC took the RL and burned it to the ground?
It is all in your mind.
The RL is essentially meaningless.
And it's been meaningless for a very long time.
Okay, here are my reasons for a few of the cards. Granted, I may be off base and maybe they're better off staying on. But I don't think they're no brainers as far as staying on the list.
Necro and Bargain. No more broken than Gris. Would only go in one deck. We wouldn't suddenly see a new archetype. In any case I think Bargain is much safer than Necro at least. It's no more busted than Gris.
Mystical. It's still a narrow tutor as Enlightened is. Why are we so afraid of being able to get an instant or sorcery? Very few are game winners outside of Tendrils, EtW and Grape. At one time Mystical was legal and I didn't think it made a mess of Legacy then either. But okay. It's no big deal if this staya on.
Survival. Again, only one deck would play it. Elves. Would it make Elves really that much better?
But I'd be cool with just the ones you said would shake up the format but we'd recover from it. If WotC would just take their head out of the sand on those few cards I think it would make for an even more interesting Legacy than we have now. Especially since 3 of those cards are NOT blue. Would help other decks that struggle against blue decks, especially Twist.
Either way, it's no big deal to me. I'm fine with the way Legacy is now. I don't even own any of those cards because there was no need for me to keep them when I sold most of my non Legacy collection a short while ago. So off or on makes no difference to me.
I just think it would be an improvement.
I still think EC, MT and BV can come off the list. Maybe even Recruiter.
In short, a lot of the current banned list is a relic from an earlier time in Magic. Aside from the power 9 and a few cards, there really aren't a lot of card on that list (I don't count the commander cards) that really need to stay on. Maybe one day I'll post the cards that absolutely can't come off for any reason without totally breaking the format in half. It's a lot fewer than what we have now. But an outdated view of the list by WotC is essentially what is keeping it what it is. We've seen that so far with the unbanning of Land Tax and WGD having ZERO impact on the format.
It's time to come out of the stone ages.
** EDIT ** Okay, here are all the cards I think could come off of Legacy without totally destroying the format.
Unfortunately, people can't see this "reality" and can only look at the doomsday scenario that they have envisioned in their mind and what has been perpetuated over the years because of the Chronicles debacle and pure irrational fear.
Great point. Regardless, it isn't going to change what is ultimately going to come down.
And that is nothing.
Because WotC still has its head stuck in the sand and nothing is going to get its head out of it.
Here's how I see it in regard to your point number 1.
Players quitting in droves?
Let's see. Standard and Modern players won't quit because they already know that their cards can be reprinted. Standard players especially know that someday their cards will be worth very little outside of a few exceptions. The RL has no effect on Standard and Modern players whatsoever.
Okay, so who is left? Well, you have EDH players. I'm not exactly sure how they'd feel. They're only playing one fs in their decks anyway and very few cards that are actually on the RL. Plus, EDH players are a different breed. I think they actually play this game more for fun than probably anybody else. Sure, they can be competitive, but they don't get as caught up in the formal competitive aspect of the game as Standard, Modern and Legacy players who go to many events for the sole purpose of winning. I think EDH players will be fine with the RL going away or not caring at all.
So that leaves us with Legacy and Vintage players. Forget Vintage. That's already a lost cause with Black Lotus at $6,000. That leaves us with Legacy which I believe is the format most affected by the RL with the most to gain or lose. So let's look at it objectively.
Taking point #1, players leaving in droves. Who exactly would leave? Would players already invested in the format, playing it because they enjoy it and NOT because their cards are an investment, leave? I know I wouldn't. What do I care how much the cards cost? I already have them, as well as everybody at our LGS. I seriously doubt any of them would quit either. That would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Are you going to enjoy PLAYING Legacy any less because some of the cards went down in value a little? I know I don't care.
That leaves us with those who have RL cards who don't play the format and only have those cards to make money. They will sell off their cards. So what? They're not playing the game anyway. They're not adding to the Magic community in any way. They don't buy Standard or Modern product. They put no money in WotC's pocket. So they serve no purpose whatsoever. Let them sell their cards. I say good ridden.
So what we now have left is the player/investor. This is the person who plays Legacy. Loves Legacy and also loves that maybe someday when they feel their too old to play, they can sell their cards and make some money on them.
How would they react? That will depend on what's more important to them. Playing a game they love or making money off of it.
Now, those who got in early will probably not care as much because they spent so little on their cards anyway. Those that got in late may be a little angry, especially if they bought USeas for $350 and now suddenly they're down to $175. Of course there is still the time differential between the reprints and the price drop. If these people feel getting their investment back is more important than playing the game they love, they will sell off as soon as the announcement is made and quit Magic. Still, this doesn't affect Standard or Modern as these people don't buy any new product. So again, this has no effect on WotC. And then there will be those who feel that playing is more important than making money and they will stay.
The net effect should be minimal. Maybe a 10% dropoff of Legacy players from the old guard.
BUT...What about all the NEW players dropping the RL attracts? Players who have been staying away from Legacy because of the cost can now enter the format and most likely will.
The final question then, and this is the one that nobody can answer, is how many of these players currently play Standard and/or Modern and how many of them will continue to play Standard and/or Modern after they have started playing Legacy?
That is the unknown that is keeping WotC from dropping the RL and reprinting these cards. The only way to get a handle on this issue is for WotC to put out a world wide survey of Standard and Modern players to find out who would continue to play those formats if Legacy was suddenly affordable.
Prospective customers would not immediately start playing Legacy because they know nothing about the format. They would have to first be introduced to Magic casually like everybody else and then decide if they even want to play competitive Magic. Let's not forget all the kitchen table players who don't care about any of this. How many of those people make up WotC's revenue? How many limited players who do nothing but just buy packs to play limited make up WotC's revenue?
The problem with the whole RL issue is that there are just too many unknowns to make any informed decision. There is no way to tell what the net effect will be. As a company, one that needs to be responsible to its stock holders and employees, WotC can't make any kind if drastic move like this, even if they were willing to say "screw the RL" without having a solid handle on what the outcome would be.
Given that the state of Magic in general is probably at its highest revenue wise in its history, there is probably little incentive for WotC to rock the boat unless it had enough market research to justify getting rid of the RL.
This is why, as sad as it is for me to say this, it is highly unlikely that the RL will ever be done away with. Financially, it's too big a risk without knowing exactly what the repercussions would be.
Actually I was responding to the guy with the long winded explanation of why high prices are good for Legacy. Just didn't feel like quoting his long post.