You are operating under the logical fallacy that your opinions are truth and other people's truths are opinions.
You know, if you're going to be throwing out the term "logical fallacy" and you're both going to be questioning each other's "facts" then how about either of you site some sources and be done with this?
It's easy to dismiss "All/None of the gods from Theros were relevant in Standard" but it's a lot harder to dismiss an actual ratio like # of top 8 decks that played the gods : # that didn't.
Granted, that won't prove whether or not Mogis is playable, but it's an easy point for one of you.
People who care about Magic but not about silver won't buy because they could just buy more Magic, people who don't have $100 to burn won't buy it because lol $100, and people who care about silver likely won't buy whether they play Magic or not because $100 is about 500% the value of the silver. The only people I can see getting these are Magic players that think silver is cool but don't care about it as an investment and have too much money. I guess those people exist, but I would be absolutely shocked if anyone at my LGS showed up with one.
A vanilla 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days.
What you insist I should have said:
A French vanilla 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days.
What I actually think you should have said:
"A 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days." - notice how I completely left out the word "vanilla" since it was as unnecessary as it was inaccurate? Your use of the word is as correct as describing Akroma as a "vanilla 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red".
Also, the argument itself is pretty ridiculous anyway since just a 5/5 Flying for 2RR would be more than solid.
Dude, everyone in this thread and on the boards knows that he/she was being slack and in fact meant French vanilla. Try to understand that and just relax.
Are you under the impression that I'm upset in some way?
I'm just saying you can't dismiss in impact of Flying on the card by saying "oh it's just a vanilla 5/5" simply because that doesn't support your argument any more than I could honestly describe the card as "Either Hellrider with Flying and recursion or Thundermaw for 1 less mana."
This card is worse than a 5/5 Flying for 4 since, if your opponent can't handle that, it's a 3/3 with abilities instead. That being said, both modes on this card are excellent the majority of the time - especially in a color that places such a premium on fast and/or efficient beaters with evasion.
I can't imagine this card being automatically dismissed as an option in any Aggro or Midrange Aggro red build.
Not semantics. Flying is a solid form of evasion - especially on a creature with an already aggresive power-to-cost ratio. For example: Chandra's Phoenix without Flying would be unplayable, but give it Flying and it's competitive.
Don't dismiss what's printed on the card just because it doesn't fit your argument.
A vanilla 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days. And this isn't even that.
A 5/5 flying can't be - by definition - vanilla.
2RR for a 5/5 with evasion is pretty sweet, but Phoenix is worse than that. 2RR for a 3/3 Haste with evasion and recursion is pretty sweet, but Phoenix is worse than that.
The fact is, though, that being slightly worse than either of those is still pretty damn good.
Just because this card isn't as good as Thundermaw Hellkite doesn't make it bad.
I believe that was the main argument against Stormbreath Dragon and it seems to be pulling its weight just fine.
The only real argument against the card is that it dies to any form of non-damage-based removal... which is a legitimate argument when people are running around with a dozen Terrors in their decks.
Phoenix is pretty good - giving your opponent a choice is always bad, but either option represents an excellent creature. If anything keeps the Phoenix from being played in Standard (which is the only format I'd consider playing it in) it'll be that the format is currently saturated with spot removal that doesn't care about 5 toughness.
The Grizzly Bear that makes creature auras slightly better doesn't do anything at all for me.
A sorta-Sulfuric Vortex is not where you want to be on turn 4 against Aggro... I can't imagine it'll be doing too much work against any kind of Midrange deck either.
UB Control is probably the only deck I'd SB this in against since it's the only deck that I'd welcome 2 damage a turn from a source they can't easily interact with.
5/5 flyer for 4 is the downside... which is pretty legit in R - the color where Jackal Pups are pure gold. In the situations like the above where a 3/3 recurrable Haste Flyer is a drawback, there's pretty much no other red 4-drop ever played that would have been better.
The only real problem with it is that it's not stellar in a format as packed with non-damage-based spot removal as the current one is.
Turn 1 Serra Ascendant is pretty dickish. Just keep swinging into the guy playing the deck least likely to have an answer for it and taste the value. Bonus points if you're playing some kind of Tron deck and can turn your 1 drop into some sort of nearly unstoppable murder train.
You know, if you're going to be throwing out the term "logical fallacy" and you're both going to be questioning each other's "facts" then how about either of you site some sources and be done with this?
It's easy to dismiss "All/None of the gods from Theros were relevant in Standard" but it's a lot harder to dismiss an actual ratio like # of top 8 decks that played the gods : # that didn't.
Granted, that won't prove whether or not Mogis is playable, but it's an easy point for one of you.
Yeah... hybrid costs don't work like that.
I imagine I'll certainly have fun playing against it.
Probably because it's not that good and is likely a fringe SB card at best...
People who care about Magic but not about silver won't buy because they could just buy more Magic, people who don't have $100 to burn won't buy it because lol $100, and people who care about silver likely won't buy whether they play Magic or not because $100 is about 500% the value of the silver. The only people I can see getting these are Magic players that think silver is cool but don't care about it as an investment and have too much money. I guess those people exist, but I would be absolutely shocked if anyone at my LGS showed up with one.
What I actually think you should have said:
"A 5/5 with flying for 4 isn't really that great on it's own these days." - notice how I completely left out the word "vanilla" since it was as unnecessary as it was inaccurate? Your use of the word is as correct as describing Akroma as a "vanilla 6/6 flying, first strike, vigilance, trample, haste, protection from black and from red".
Also, the argument itself is pretty ridiculous anyway since just a 5/5 Flying for 2RR would be more than solid.
Sure thing.
Are you under the impression that I'm upset in some way?
I'm just saying you can't dismiss in impact of Flying on the card by saying "oh it's just a vanilla 5/5" simply because that doesn't support your argument any more than I could honestly describe the card as "Either Hellrider with Flying and recursion or Thundermaw for 1 less mana."
Dude.
It would be clearer that you knew what the words you're using mean. That helps when you're asking people to weigh your opinion.
I can't imagine this card being automatically dismissed as an option in any Aggro or Midrange Aggro red build.
Not semantics. Flying is a solid form of evasion - especially on a creature with an already aggresive power-to-cost ratio. For example: Chandra's Phoenix without Flying would be unplayable, but give it Flying and it's competitive.
Don't dismiss what's printed on the card just because it doesn't fit your argument.
A 5/5 flying can't be - by definition - vanilla.
2RR for a 5/5 with evasion is pretty sweet, but Phoenix is worse than that.
2RR for a 3/3 Haste with evasion and recursion is pretty sweet, but Phoenix is worse than that.
The fact is, though, that being slightly worse than either of those is still pretty damn good.
I believe that was the main argument against Stormbreath Dragon and it seems to be pulling its weight just fine.
The only real argument against the card is that it dies to any form of non-damage-based removal... which is a legitimate argument when people are running around with a dozen Terrors in their decks.
The Grizzly Bear that makes creature auras slightly better doesn't do anything at all for me.
UB Control is probably the only deck I'd SB this in against since it's the only deck that I'd welcome 2 damage a turn from a source they can't easily interact with.
That allows your opponent to still gain life and/or indefinitely turn the ability off if they have something like token generation.
This thing is... meh. Maybe a sideboard card?
The only real problem with it is that it's not stellar in a format as packed with non-damage-based spot removal as the current one is.