I enjoy Karador quite a bit. He can scale to different difficulties of playgroups easily. His colors leave you out of blue, which can often get you targeted, and red, which has limited uses. Your deck is creature heavy and usually very durable, and as the game goes on, Karador remains just as easy to cast.
If you want to make it combo, you can, or good stuff, or other shenanigans. It really has a ton of versatility.
Not sure if someone else responded, but is a sucky interaction. Norin will almost always have the least toughness, and then exile himself, losing the counter.
1) It's not "my" color pie. It's the longterm consistency of the game.
2) The only offensive part of the card is the targeting opponents creatures (ok well, destroying your own is a little weird but that's definitely a flavor concession)
3) "Having the most limited slice of the pie" is not only untrue, it's not a valid reason.
4) When the majority of your examples come from sets where the color pie was non-existent maybe your examples are bad.
5) Doing it a few times does not a precedent set.
6) When something happens incredibly infrequently that makes it more unlikely that it is valid.
People should defend cards because they make sense, not because they want/like them. The game is healthier for it.
1) Not being your color pie, MaRo will likely answer questions about this card and clearly has approved it for printing. Therefore, we have to assume this isn't an egregious offender.
2) Based on the past 5 years, would agree (Alara block as the last time we saw red destroy another creature). However, still recent enough history from my perspective.
3) I suppose I would need more history for this. Red's bag of tricks is pretty limited, albeit efficient, in comparison to the other colors. While it does have artifact hate, haste, trample, direct damage, firebreathing, prevent damage prevention, exile as draw and land destruction, most other colors have more versatile and better costed/more frequently used effects. I know you mostly play EDH, as do I, red certainly is weak there and I believe that is because of the lack of card advantage in the color pie and lack of meaningful interaction besides MLD and MAD. However, this is based purely on opinion, I suppose. For the validity of the reason, they are allowed to expand the color pie. Giving a color an effect that is not strictly another color's effect is appropriate. Take green and polymorphing via Whisperwood Elemental. Based on history, I believe this (Assault Force) fits in a nontraditional way.
4) There are some recent examples, but as I pointed out, this effect is NOT common in red, which is why this is mythic rare.
5) How does it not? IMO, polymorphing should have NEVER been part of blue, but they did it a couple times, found it fair enough and kept it there, especially recently. Historically it wasn't there besides Pongify and they just gave it to that piece. Still feels wrong to me, however, it is the direction they went. Same is true for this.
6) Agree to disagree on this, I suppose. MaRo has said numerous times that "this color can do these things at higher rarities" so that is where I feel that way. Doesn't have to be done every set or every year, but still is done.
I don't really give 2 craps about this card. I doubt I will ever play it besides as a gimicky deck on Cockatrice. However, to resist change is a fool's errand, especially in something as silly as this, which can be reasonably justified.
Again, I don't believe it fits the color pie perfectly, but I would be hard pressed to call it "breaking" of the color pie.
I see. When red gets a card outlandishly out of pie it is ok, but when blue gets an effect that has always been within color pie the forums implode.
Did someone seriously cite Cinder Cloud and Fissure as a precedent? This place makes no sense.
Yes. I did. As part of precedence. Not because we can refer to all of the old cards, but that it has been something that is in red's piece of the color pie but does not happen very often. And it has even happened frequently.
I don't believe this to be an offense of the color pie, this is simply a demonstration of a rare piece that red has access to. Polymorphing isn't strictly blue, red has and will continue to "transform" creatures in its' own right.
I know you are very protective of your color pie, but red has this and has had it. The only thing that would make anyone raise an eyebrow is if/that it can target opponents' creatures. But, even if it could, it still has happened and should continue to.
Red has the most limited piece of the color pie, it needs effects like this at higher rarities, otherwise, what card do you make? Another dragon?
I half expect to scroll through and see a large number of people saying that...
Man, you couldn't have been farther from the truth!
Right? It is like people don't play EDH, which is why I posted that. Any time something is greater than CMC 6 and is not busted they say it is for EDH.
This is standard playable, for sure, but I was being facetious on how often people will ignorantly claim that a card is "good for EDH" when they clearly don't play it.
Assuming you are always running the biggest fatties in EDH is a pretty bad idea. The only deck I *MIGHT* run it in would be Doran, but even then, I have access to black, so why would I want to use that to draw on my upkeep as opposed to Phyrexian Arena? Card is just bad. It can see limited usage in standard and maybe for a budget EDH deck that doesn't know what good cards are. The only application I see is sideboard tech vs control.
If you want to make it combo, you can, or good stuff, or other shenanigans. It really has a ton of versatility.
Not sure if someone else responded, but is a sucky interaction. Norin will almost always have the least toughness, and then exile himself, losing the counter.
Meh.
*Sigh*
Please read the discussion above and in the following pages. You may find them informative.
1) Not being your color pie, MaRo will likely answer questions about this card and clearly has approved it for printing. Therefore, we have to assume this isn't an egregious offender.
2) Based on the past 5 years, would agree (Alara block as the last time we saw red destroy another creature). However, still recent enough history from my perspective.
3) I suppose I would need more history for this. Red's bag of tricks is pretty limited, albeit efficient, in comparison to the other colors. While it does have artifact hate, haste, trample, direct damage, firebreathing, prevent damage prevention, exile as draw and land destruction, most other colors have more versatile and better costed/more frequently used effects. I know you mostly play EDH, as do I, red certainly is weak there and I believe that is because of the lack of card advantage in the color pie and lack of meaningful interaction besides MLD and MAD. However, this is based purely on opinion, I suppose. For the validity of the reason, they are allowed to expand the color pie. Giving a color an effect that is not strictly another color's effect is appropriate. Take green and polymorphing via Whisperwood Elemental. Based on history, I believe this (Assault Force) fits in a nontraditional way.
4) There are some recent examples, but as I pointed out, this effect is NOT common in red, which is why this is mythic rare.
5) How does it not? IMO, polymorphing should have NEVER been part of blue, but they did it a couple times, found it fair enough and kept it there, especially recently. Historically it wasn't there besides Pongify and they just gave it to that piece. Still feels wrong to me, however, it is the direction they went. Same is true for this.
6) Agree to disagree on this, I suppose. MaRo has said numerous times that "this color can do these things at higher rarities" so that is where I feel that way. Doesn't have to be done every set or every year, but still is done.
I don't really give 2 craps about this card. I doubt I will ever play it besides as a gimicky deck on Cockatrice. However, to resist change is a fool's errand, especially in something as silly as this, which can be reasonably justified.
Again, I don't believe it fits the color pie perfectly, but I would be hard pressed to call it "breaking" of the color pie.
Yes. I did. As part of precedence. Not because we can refer to all of the old cards, but that it has been something that is in red's piece of the color pie but does not happen very often. And it has even happened frequently.
I don't believe this to be an offense of the color pie, this is simply a demonstration of a rare piece that red has access to. Polymorphing isn't strictly blue, red has and will continue to "transform" creatures in its' own right.
I know you are very protective of your color pie, but red has this and has had it. The only thing that would make anyone raise an eyebrow is if/that it can target opponents' creatures. But, even if it could, it still has happened and should continue to.
Red has the most limited piece of the color pie, it needs effects like this at higher rarities, otherwise, what card do you make? Another dragon?
This gives a lot more range than people expect. It is good against control and aggro alike.
I can see this being a pain to deal with especially since Bloodsoaked Champion is a thing.
Not very often, but it does happen in higher rarities.
Examples: Aftershock, Cinder Cloud, Dark Temper (A stretch, I know), Diaochan, Artful Beauty, Fissure, Fleshpulper Giant, Goblin Grenadiers, and there are plenty more, not to mention Jokulhaups style effects.
A quick search on Gatherer can find you more.
Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it should never happen.
Card advantage by a ton, 4 mana and starting at 6 loyalty... Plus CA and a near game ending ultimate. Nice.
Right? It is like people don't play EDH, which is why I posted that. Any time something is greater than CMC 6 and is not busted they say it is for EDH.
This is standard playable, for sure, but I was being facetious on how often people will ignorantly claim that a card is "good for EDH" when they clearly don't play it.
Online sarcasm is hard to tell, my apologies.
"People will love him in EDH."
I half expect to scroll through and see a large number of people saying that...
I don't. Ever. Would rather have any number of the following cards: Garruk's Packleader, Heartwood Storyteller, Elvish Visionary, Lifeblood Hydra, Magus of the Library, Primordial Sage, Regal Force, Soul of the Harvest, or Wall of Blossoms.
Assuming you are always running the biggest fatties in EDH is a pretty bad idea. The only deck I *MIGHT* run it in would be Doran, but even then, I have access to black, so why would I want to use that to draw on my upkeep as opposed to Phyrexian Arena? Card is just bad. It can see limited usage in standard and maybe for a budget EDH deck that doesn't know what good cards are. The only application I see is sideboard tech vs control.