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  • posted a message on Crazy Prices for MH2?
    This is what happens when Hasbro tells WOTC to double their profit.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    Quote from signofzeta »
    So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
    I'm pretty sure it's just dead and there's no realistic way to produce and market it profitably. I can certainly understand your frustration, but 60 card casual precons has numerous problems. The normal 4 of rule pulls in multiple directions. It's extremely unfun for diversity UNLESS you have a unique, irreplacable effect the deck has to have to function. Other decks having multiples of more powerful cards make the precon garbage, though. You also can't print multiples of highly desirable cards for other formats because it either leads to scalping or destroys the secondary market value of the good cards. Pokemon also did the 60 card casual precon format online. You could play precon vs precon without the issue of having a very limited number of decks per set. People lost interest and the format was scrapped for the same issue competitive formats have. It led to people just playing the couple teir precons over and over again. What they can realistically do is commander precons and sets like jumpstart. Jumpstart has the kind of thing you're looking for. It has hundreds of potential 40 card precons per release, can make new cards without flooding the market, and you can even print desirable chase cards. Commander is an actual precon, can print format staples because people maintain a whole collection of decks, is automatically limited to `1 copy per card, and solves the unique, irreplacable card problem with its commander that you pretty much always have access to. The reason commander replaced you preferred precons isn't because wizards game sucks. It's because commander, by its very format design fixes all the problems with normal precons simply based on the way the format naturally works. If commander were invented in the beginning, 60 card casual precon never would have existed to begin with because it was flawed from the beginning and destined for failure. I've been playing for decades and every set, unless a 60 card precon gets scalped for parts, none of them ever sold like the low end of commander precons. It's just a naturally superior model to theme decks, intro decks, duel decks, clash packs, or box sets like game night or archenemy. Wizards tried a bunch of different things including precon league style play at game stores that no one was ever interested in at any store I ever went to. Sometimes you just have to face facts that exactly what you want is just not popular or profitable.


    Nah man, I am going to fight it just like, back when Wolfenstein Enemy Territory was a thing, I am going to fight the fact that people there would rather use ETpub, No Quarter, or Jaymod instead of ETmain.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Quote from signofzeta »

    You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?


    You get as much or more value from $15 worth of booster packs as you did from any given intro deck. They weren't products designed for 'beginners,' they were products designed to take advantage of people who don't know that a secondary market exists. There might be good reasons to defend the concept of a theme deck, but the way they were executed, in practice, completely undermines your position that they were Magic's only / necessary point of entry to the game.

    The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. You're engaging in some rather fervent mental gymnastics to explain how catering to the commander crowd is evidence that Wizards have no faith in their own product, when the most obvious, logical explanation is exactly what they're telling us: commander is so popular that it's attracting new players who have no problem paying $20+ for a deck.

    That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.


    Continuing to use the arbitrary definition that you've made up isn't going to sway anyone that such a thing exists. All this seems to indicate is that you don't understand how long term value works.


    I didn't make up the definition. You can't say that life starts at 20 and at 40. One is the regular rule, the other is the modified rules. I believe that Magic, how it was originally designed and evolved is the regular rules.

    If you have played any old PC games yourself, you have heard of expansion packs, mods, or even source ports. What Brutal Doom is to Doom, Commander is to Magic. When I mention Regular Doom, most people would visualize Vanilla Doom. Commander is nothing more than a fan made mod to Magic. Sure, there are differences in rules between Magic in 1993 and the current rules. That's the same as the difference between Doom v1.0 and Doom v1.9.

    You're just triggered because you like Commander, and by saying that Commander isn't the regular rules of the game, you don't feel "normal" and thus your feelings get hurt, while others would know what I mean when I say "regular rules".

    Why is it that it takes some fan modifications to the game in order for people to not care if they win or lose? Has anybody even tried to build a deck that is better than intro packs, where the limit is 0 mythics, 2 rares, one of which must be a creature, 12 uncommons, 24 to 26 basic lands, the rest commons.

    WOTC could easily make better 60 card precons for $15, but they don't do it. Intro packs only sucked, as if it was punishment because you didn't give WOTC enough money. It's as if they sold you crappy decks in hope for you to buy more product to improve or replace the deck. Then they see some people actually enjoying the crappy decks, and not spending any money on other products, and thus, they spit in our faces.

    $15 precons suck, but that is true for any game. Ever win games against casual Pokemon TCG decks with a Theme Deck, or casual Yugioh decks with an unmodified Structure deck? At least those games gave you an option to spend $15 on a deck at the expense of the deck not being competitive or valuable. MTG no longer has that option.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    Quote from signofzeta »
    "Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".



    They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
    If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
    You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.


    So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.

    I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.

    Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.


    I think Challenger Decks fill the role your looking for.


    Too bad there's only 4 for the entire year.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    "Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".



    They don't really gave up since all other formats, since exists and they still making products for other formats (like the upcoming Modern Horizon 2) and still making tournaments for said formats. Casual players just love the commander formats more than random pile of 60 cards decks and if beginners and casual players are happy with that, why, you, that are a veteran player that has no competitive interest in these pre-con, be upset about it?
    If beginners are happy, then everybody is happy. It's a win-win. And I never heard no beginner ever said commander decks have a prohibitive price tag. Ou contraire, I just found people enthusiast to make their hands on the decks of this popular format everybody play.
    You are not happy that new players start Magic with a commander pre-con because of price or anything else? Cool, but please keep in mind that you're pretty much a minority and your perception doesn't reflect at all how reality currently works.


    So basically, WOTC don't know how to make 60 card, you know, the unmodified rules of the game, fun for casuals, meaning, they gave up.

    I also never knew that Modern Horizons 2 are preconstructed decks.

    Spending $50 precons and $10 booster packs is nothing to you it seems. I remember when I had little income, I could buy the $13 Intro Packs and enjoy the game that way. Now that's all gone.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck.


    Sure, but at least Commander decks has like, a lot of demand and a lot of real players playing it and demanding it. More, much more, than "random 60 pile of filler cards". As I said -actually as WotC as a whole say and confirm-, Commander is the most played and popular format among casual players because today most casual players know Magic because they see the more enfranchised but most casualish players introduce them to commander as a friendly and social way to begin them in the game.

    That's why today it makes perfect sense to push more on the real life requests based on strong flavor, social aspect and fantasy identity -which is the most popular format played in the whole world in absolute-, than uninspiring, plain and boring 60 cards deck.

    You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?


    For me, no other trading card game has the same quality -in terms of arts, depths, design, lore, raw numbers of cards, strategies and archetypes, formats and variants and so on- of any other TCG I am aware of. Magic is the first trading card game of the entire history and all other TCG games are just bland copies and ripoff of the real thing. I would gladly pay 15 and even more dollars for such an excellent game.


    That's your choice, but why abandon those who have been loyal to the regular rules of the game? You'd rather pay a lot of money for one precon deck? Well some of us don't.

    I'll say this again. WOTC has zero confidence in promoting their own rules of the game, much so that they gave up and is now promoting the same game where a bunch of fans changed a bunch of rules and now everybody wants to play that instead of what Magic really is.

    "Why try to fight the fact that people want to play Commander". More like, "We give up, our game sucks. People rather play a game someone else made by changing a few of our rules".
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    Quote from signofzeta »
    So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.


    I don't understand who should really miss the low-powered decks for beginners. Who the beginners decks were aimed for in the first place?
    If, like MaRo says, data proves that most of the new players learn Magic from other commander players anyway and they enjoy this format and their pre-con, I don't see how they could even miss a product they are not even aware of their existence.
    All the rest of the enfranchised players of any format? They are obviously not interested in 60 cards pre-con decks filled with competitively unplayable stuff, since there's so much and better products available for them already.

    I think this is just an irrational nostalgia thing by some old players for a non-existent issue.


    You try selling a $15 precon product and get people to buy it. How is it that every other trading card game have a under $15 preconstucted deck option, but MTG doesn't?

    I used to buy the set of 4 Theme Decks per set for $50. I guess because I find ways to enjoy the game by not spending a lot on a set of 4 decks means that WOTC don't care about people like me anymore. Why care about a person who spends $50 on 4 decks when there is a person who will pay $50 for one deck.

    Intro Packs are unplayable, based on what? Competitiveness? Pretty sure the $25 Commander Decks are pretty unplayable when matched up against any competitive Commander deck. I'd like you to make a better deck where you are confined to no mythics, 2 rares, 12 uncommons, the rest commons, and the cards must be from one set, oh, and stores must not have any incentives to mark up the price either.

    When Theme Decks became Intro Packs, the Theme Decks were made for 2 crowds. Those who knew how to play, but wanted to explore the set, and the other crowd is the new player. They wanted to focus on the new player aspect, and thus Intro Packs were born. Because Intro Packs focused on the New Player, the decks were simplistic and boring. If only there are a set of 4 set associated precons focusing on making fun decks that showcases the set. We used to have Intro Packs and Event Decks. Another time, well for one set, we had Planeswalker Decks and Brawl Decks. We had a cheap precon option, and a more expensive one. Why can't every single set have a set of 4 or 5 $15 60 card precons, and a set of 2 $25 Commander precons? I find it hard to justify $15 Commander decks, which is why I went with the 60 card option. It also gives new players the choice.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Good Morning Magic- Info on the upcoming preconstructed commander decks (NO SPOILERS)
    So 60 card precons aimed at new players is dead. Who knows when we will ever get under $15 60 card precons focusing on themes and mechanics from the latest sets ever again.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Quote from signofzeta »
    My point was that the set associated Commander decks should not be set associated. For a deck to be set associated, it must mostly have cards drawn from the set, is themed after set, or is plane neutral. For a card to be themed from the set or is plane neutral, the name must not reference anything from any other plane, and the art must not feature anything from any other plane. If a deck has basic lands from a different plane, then those lands are not themed from the set or is plane neutral.

    I picked 90 out of 100 cards because you are more likely to draw the cards themed from the set than you are not, and I want that likelihood to be very high, and I picked 90 out of 100 to argue that Commander decks should not be set associated.


    I honestly don't judge you for wanting this, but at the same time it's not a very realistic expectation.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    Commander is an eternal format. I do not see a point in tying it to the newest sets. It would make just as much sense to have the Strixhaven Commander decks be released a decade from now as it is to be released this year. I'd rather have it so that the set associated precons are your 60 card regular (I don't use the term standard because you would assume standard competitive) decks while the Commander decks, which don't have to be tied to a set, and is not branded to be set associated, has a loose theme around a plane we visited before. The way WOTC are doing things now, the Commander decks are guaranteed to have your commander be from the newest sets.

    Not only have I lost my precious Theme Decks and Intro Packs, although I do wish that the power levels and complexities of those decks were a bit higher, we will never ever get to see the main Commander in Commander Decks from planes that we have visited before, but won't re-visit in a Standard set.


    It would not make sense, from a marketing a point of view, to do that at all. I don't approve of every decision that Wizards makes in the pursuit of profit, but I still want them to stay in business. That said, they will certainly go back to revising characters from previous planes.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    It's not that I dislike the Commander format. It's more like, in terms of precons this year and possibly going forward, why is almost everything Commander? Commander this, Commander that. During the years where we only got the one Commander release with the 5, sometimes 4, decks, I mentioned that there should be two of these releases per year. I didn't mean it for them to tie the Commander decks to the Standard sets. It used to be that you only got 5 Commander decks per year while every other precon was 60 card. Now the balance of power has switched. We get 4 (9 if there is a Core set that year) 60 card decks while everything else is Commander.


    Because it's the year of commander! It only started just last May, with the release of Ikoria. Would you be less upset to know that it should now effectively be over?



    Year of Commander, more like an eternity of Commander until we screw up the product line so much that nobody buys our product. If Ikoria was the start of "year of commander", then Strixhaven wouldn't have commander decks. Even the upcoming D&D set has commander decks and by that time, it has been past that year.

    It is not that difficult to not slap the word Ikoria or Strixhaven into the annual commander deck release.

    As for set associated precons must mostly having cards related to the set or is plane neutral, it had nothing to do with me being biased against commander. I mentioned that event decks should not be set associated because they contain a mixture of cards from all standard legal sets. There was one event deck from Innistrad block that had more cards from Scars of Mirrodin block.
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Quote from ZasZ234 »
    Quote from signofzeta »
    All I will suspect is that these decks will have nothing to do with D&D except for a few cards and some D&D branding slapped all over the packaging. If they were your Theme Decks or Intro Packs, each deck will actually be D&D themed as most of the cards will be sourced from the set itself.

    Just curious. What would the criteria/threshold be for a deck to be satisfyingly D&D themed?


    I'd say 90 cards being D&D related or any plane neutral cards.


    I seriously don't get how you got 80 cards from the set of 5 decks when Zasz234 was asking for a deck, and a D&D deck, not Strixhaven. D&D commander decks will most likely be built like the Kaldheim and Zendikar Rising commander decks.

    Explain to me why is it so important for the Commander decks to be tied to the Standard sets? Too bad we will never see something like Commander 2019 where we had a Morph Commander Deck and Flashback Commander deck. Each of the 4 having the main Commander being from totally different planes. Tell me. Why would it not make sense to have Commander not tied to a Standard set, like it used to be?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    My point was that the set associated Commander decks should not be set associated. For a deck to be set associated, it must mostly have cards drawn from the set, is themed after set, or is plane neutral. For a card to be themed from the set or is plane neutral, the name must not reference anything from any other plane, and the art must not feature anything from any other plane. If a deck has basic lands from a different plane, then those lands are not themed from the set or is plane neutral.

    I picked 90 out of 100 cards because you are more likely to draw the cards themed from the set than you are not, and I want that likelihood to be very high, and I picked 90 out of 100 to argue that Commander decks should not be set associated.

    Commander is an eternal format. I do not see a point in tying it to the newest sets. It would make just as much sense to have the Strixhaven Commander decks be released a decade from now as it is to be released this year. I'd rather have it so that the set associated precons are your 60 card regular (I don't use the term standard because you would assume standard competitive) decks while the Commander decks, which don't have to be tied to a set, and is not branded to be set associated, has a loose theme around a plane we visited before. The way WOTC are doing things now, the Commander decks are guaranteed to have your commander be from the newest sets.

    Not only have I lost my precious Theme Decks and Intro Packs, although I do wish that the power levels and complexities of those decks were a bit higher, we will never ever get to see the main Commander in Commander Decks from planes that we have visited before, but won't re-visit in a Standard set.

    It's not that I dislike the Commander format. It's more like, in terms of precons this year and possibly going forward, why is almost everything Commander? Commander this, Commander that. During the years where we only got the one Commander release with the 5, sometimes 4, decks, I mentioned that there should be two of these releases per year. I didn't mean it for them to tie the Commander decks to the Standard sets. It used to be that you only got 5 Commander decks per year while every other precon was 60 card. Now the balance of power has switched. We get 4 (9 if there is a Core set that year) 60 card decks while everything else is Commander.

    The set associated precons should be nothing more than a sampler of that set. The Commander decks do not serve that purpose. I could also say that the Planeswalker Decks don't do that either. I'll take Kaldheim Commander Decks for example. What are the themes of the two decks? Elves and uh, Foretell? With the Foretell deck, the odds of drawing a Foretell card is low that you don't even get to get a feeling of that mechanic.

    If Kaldheim were released in the Theme Deck era, the 4 decks would've been Elves, Foretell, Snow, and some other Tribal theme.

    Since this is about the D&D Commander decks, the D&D set would have so many awesome themes that don't get a deck, because there is most likely going to be two choices, and we probably get, aside from basic lands, 20 out of 100 cards be related to that theme, and thus your chances to experience that theme is low.

    It's pretty funny how the set that has the main Commander decks tied to it has a "5" theme. You know, in Ikoria, they have the five locales in the plane that is your wedge colors, and now we have your 5 colleges in Strixhaven.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Quote from signofzeta »


    Quote from ZasZ234 »
    Just curious. What would the criteria/threshold be for a deck to be satisfyingly D&D themed?


    I'd say 90 cards being D&D related or any plane neutral cards.


    There are over 80 new cards in Strixhaven Commander / 2021. XD XD XD


    I'd like you to list me the 80 new cards in one Strixhaven Commander deck. Even if that was the case, Strixhaven and Ikoria is your annual commander series. D&D, Kaldheim, and Zendikar Rising is a different story.

    I can bet you that a Strixhaven Commander deck does NOT have 80 new cards, and I can safely say those are facts.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    Quote from ZasZ234 »
    Quote from signofzeta »
    All I will suspect is that these decks will have nothing to do with D&D except for a few cards and some D&D branding slapped all over the packaging. If they were your Theme Decks or Intro Packs, each deck will actually be D&D themed as most of the cards will be sourced from the set itself.

    Just curious. What would the criteria/threshold be for a deck to be satisfyingly D&D themed?


    I'd say 90 cards being D&D related or any plane neutral cards.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    All I will suspect is that these decks will have nothing to do with D&D except for a few cards and some D&D branding slapped all over the packaging. If they were your Theme Decks or Intro Packs, each deck will actually be D&D themed as most of the cards will be sourced from the set itself.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    Quote from FlossedBeaver »
    Do the Strixhaven decks not feel like Strixhaven?


    Less than a quarter of the deck contents have cards that feel like strixhaven. I can take every white black theme deck and intro pack, make a commander deck and slap Silverquill as its name, and the deck would still have nothing to do with strixhaven.

    The deck has strixhaven sprinkled on top rather than the deck being made of strixhaven. At least Theme decks, Intro packs, and Planeswalker decks made sense to be set associated because the contents of the deck draw from the set itself.

    There is a huge difference in flavor between the Elvish Rage theme deck from Legions and the Elvish Predation theme deck from Lorwyn.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on D&D forgotten realm confirmed to get commander decks
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Speaking of boring, Theme Decks were the best, until they became intro packs and became boring to play with. WOTC does this all the time. They start up a new product line. The product is good at first, and over the years, they get worse and worse, or people are just bored of it, and then they cancel it, rather than just make the same product good again. I actually liked the premium deck series. Duel decks are another product. There's the masters series, but I don't buy those things. They used to experiment with multiplayer formats. It's now Commander, Commander, more Commander, always Commander.


    I used to like it when WOTC made block constructed decks with the constraints of only having 2 rares, 12 uncommons, it must have a minimum of 24 lands, and there must be at least over 20 different cards. I'd like to see someone critical of intro packs do any better.
    Has it always been "good"? My first deck was an upgraded (read: more 4-ofs) version of the Mirrodin Affinity theme deck, and even then it was the only one that was remotely playable of the set, and it's more because of the mechanic than it is of deck construction. Most of them are Limited decks with more copies in it, which doesn't really translate well into Constructed. The Intro Packs got rares designed for them thrown into the main set, to the detriment of said main set, to help focus the decks, and they still suck.

    Premium Deck Series are worse. You'd think something filled to the brim with foiled-out good reprints coalesced into a working deck would be well-loved, but it sputtered out after the first one. The Slivers one is worth up to hundreds of dollars online, while the other two range from $40 to $150 and are just everywhere.

    Wizards gambled with the original Commander precons, thinking it's going to be a one-time thing. Nope, it exploded in popularity, so much so that they tried to follow up on it as fast as possible, leading to whatever the hell Commander's Arsenal was supposed to be. However, the sticking point were the next Commander precons, which sold just as well as the original decks, if not better. It kept going, with a small decrease in sales with the C19 precons. These precons are one of the few things they've made that only required minor changes for a maintenance on sales. Heck, their power level has gone up unlike every other precon.


    How many of those sales come from people who actually buy the commander deck, and not buy 100 singles packaged in a box? Don't you think that sales are going to be better anyway if a deck had more "rares" in them?

    I liked intro packs because not only did it focus on the 60 card game, they are cheap. Once you make the deck have value or is competitive, the decks will no longer become cheap, and that has happened to some Theme Decks in the past. It's as if they don't want the deck to attract those who already know how to play the game looking for that chase card, or they aren't looking to build a deck for new players that would give them no incentive to either fix or build their own deck.

    I've mentioned this when Event Decks were a thing. I said that event decks need to not be set associated because the decks contained cards from different sets and the majority of cards weren't from that particular set. The same is happening with the Commander precons. The Kaldheim Commander precons don't feel like Kaldheim. If there were Kaldheim intro packs, at least one of them would have focused on the snow mechanic, much so that almost the entire deck has snow cards. All the Commander decks had is one or two snow cards in one of the decks.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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