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  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    To follow up on this I will have to change my stance. These are going to fail and fail hard.

    WM is selling these at $55 USD a pop. Epic fail. Wish I would have preordered months ago at those super low prices. And unless I can find them for $45 or less I will pass.

    When a new player sees this at $55 in a small box and "just" 75 cards sitting right next to a Commander box much larger, 100 cards plus tokens for just $42 dollars and is played everywhere, which one are they going to choose 9 out of 10 times?

    Prices should have been just like the Standard Challenger decks. GREED GREED GREED WotC and/or WM!!!

    UPDATE: About 42 USD each on Amazon currently. I ordered 2 before the prices go up. They should still be around 30 USD each. Frown


    WOTC's pricing rules:

    Standard legal product? Normal price.
    Not Tournament Legal? Normal Price.
    Tournament Legal, but not Standard legal? Double price.

    It's a shame that if this fails, because of the high price, WOTC would rather discontinue the product than sell the 2nd batch at a lower price.

    When the Standard rotates, the Standard Challenger Decks end up being legal in Pioneer. The Pioneer Challenger Decks better be double the power over the Standard Challenger Decks.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Pioneer is the Fetch of MtG, stop trying to make it happen, just bring Historic to paper.

    I think a 60 card Historic deck with Arena code could sell better then most deck precons.

    Even better, a Historic Brawl Deck which can double as a Commander Decks with Arena code.

    Anyways back to the topic of the Showcase, does anyone think the Adventure mechanic and Sagas could be in Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate?


    There is going to be a time when we will have something like a Dominaria United onward format. Because 9 years separates 8th edition and Return to Ravnica, and another 9 years separates Return to Ravnica to Dominaria, that is we bring back extended, with the exception that instead of rotating out 4 sets per year, they rotate out 12 sets every 3 years.

    I was thinking about having your 4 Standard Challenger decks, and for the 3 sets that contain 2 Commander Decks as opposed to 5 for the last remaining set, those 3 sets would also contain your 60-card decks with Arena codes. I guess one of the arguments against having Commander as the set associated precon is that there is no link between the Commander product and MTG Arena. It isn't like you could have both Commander and a 60-card precon that ties in with MTG Arena.

    I would like to see Core Sets come back. Not as a "for new players" set, but as a set that brings reprints into Standard. Your 5 Commander Decks and the 4 Challenger Decks would be released alongside every core set, and that would be the spring set. The core set does have a story. The story would not be tied to one plane, but tied to the 5 characters that would be the Commanders in the commander decks. The 5 characters are totally unrelated, and could be from different planes. The flavor of the new cards would be designed around those characters. All other 3 sets will be the expansion sets. Those sets have 2 Commander decks and 2 60-card precons tied to MTG arena. The Commander precons would focus on evergreen themes, like things that are not necessarily tied to the set, like tribal, or evergreen mechanics like flying, tokens, spells etc. The 60-card arena tied precons would focus on set specific mechanics that we would never see outside the set. I decided on the Core Set because I didn't want a set to have your main Commander release, with the 5 decks but no 60-card variant, and having to miss out on what the new mechanics of that set would be. Core sets tend to have no new mechanics.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from Kamino_Taka »
    what exactly stops you from playing the commander decks as "base rules" decks?


    Unless you change the deck in some form, there will always be cards that references a Commander, the Command Zone, Color Identity, and multiplayer over 1 v 1.

    Pioneer today is basically what Modern was in 2012. Both have 9 years worth of sets. Modern Event Deck came out in 2014, and that would be sort of equivalent to when we would get Pioneer Challenger Decks in 2023. Both draw from the same amount of sets at release.

    Why did the Modern Event Deck fail that one time, and what makes us certain that Pioneer Challenger decks won't meet the same fate?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Specifying that you were referring to $50 CAD earlier in your post would have helped.

    Pioneer decks failing in Canada is not going to sink sales. I'd venture that Canada probably does 1/10 or less sales of that of the USA. Keep your eyes open, shop around and you can probably buy them on ebay for far less than 50 CAD.

    BTW I will be buying at least two of these decks, I like the product. Maybe you can find someone here in the states to buy and ship them to you at a reasonable cost. Either that or get your government to stop being so restrictive and causing these "shortages" and trade imbalances. Good luck and hope you can find them at a reasonable price.


    I just hope that the Pioneer Challenger decks are here to stay, and released every October, 6 months away from the April released Standard Challenger Decks. The issue with this is that we did experience the Modern Event Deck which only lasted one year.

    Is Pioneer a popular enough format to warrant the Pioneer Challenger Decks to be an annual product? It didn't work for the Brawl Decks and the Modern Event Deck. If Pioneer Challenger Decks are not an annual thing, at least release 4 decks in October that focuses on 60-card base rules gameplay. Something like casual decks tied to old sets, maybe Challenger Decks, although not legal for current Standard, but for an older Standard, built for casual players.

    Do people buy older Challenger Decks, ones from last year and 2 years prior, not for Standard but for Casual? Maybe the Pioneer Challenger Decks, at the right price, can fill that niche. The older Challenger decks essentially will have become Pioneer Challenger Decks.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    I will say this. Pioneer Challenger deck will fail not because people don't want them, it is because people don't want them at $50.


    Pioneer Challenger Decks can be pre-ordered for as low as 18 USD at this time.

    https://www.cardkingdom.com/mtg/challenger-decks-2021/sealed

    Where are they $50?


    Most, if not all stores in Canada, the Canada where it is cheaper to buy from a LGS than a Walmart and, uh Walmart (Canadians don't have a Target, but they still have a Toys R Us), and considering anybody not in the US can't order from a US site, or is that not a thing anymore? I remember that I can't order some old Intro Packs I didn't own because of this stupid policy that to help Brick and Mortar stores in your local country, you can't order sealed product online from a different country. I understand if it was new product, but old product that my local Brick and Mortar stores don't carry anyway?

    All I really ask for is for WOTC to not give Commander way too much attention, much so, that 60-card base rules becomes obsolete, and that I really hope the Pioneer Challenger Decks are here to stay. It's always easy to give the minority of players who want to play the game a certain way nothing, when you can make everything for the majority when that is where the money comes from.

    WOTC never gave Modern Event Decks a chance. Ok, a $75 precon was a stupid idea. They never gave Brawl Decks a chance. I don't think Pioneer Challenger Decks will work out for the same reason the Modern Event Deck never worked out. Unless the decks are super good, charging a lot for it is always a bad idea. Why couldn't they just create some $15 60-card base rules precons that are upgradable? Why are they so incompetent in making such a product?

    I really hope Pioneer Event Decks are an annual thing for a long time, and even if it isn't, at least some form of set of 4 precon decks focused on some sort of 60-card base rules format is there to replace it, so long as we get 10 total 60-card base rules precons per year.

    They could either go 4 Challenger Decks, 1 Arena Starter Kit with 2 Decks, and 4 more 60-card base rules decks.

    They could go 5 Challenger Decks, and 5 more 60-card base rules decks, either they could be the Pioneer Challenger Decks, or decks aimed at new players.

    They could do 4 Challenger decks and 2 Arena Starter Kit style decks, but released along 3 of the 4 sets, the 3 sets that don't have the main Commander release.

    All of which total 10 60-card base rules precons.

    My initial rant was about how WOTC said that there at least was something for those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method. Then 2021 happened and that method just disappeared. It's as if they think that those who want to learn using the 60-card base rules method don't exist, or that playgroups who don't play Commander don't exist. That is what ticks me off. "People want to play what their friends play, and that is Commander". So what if a new player's friends don't play Commander, or what if that new player only have one friend, and because it's only 1 friend, we play 1 vs 1 formats? Ok, there is the Arena Starter Kit, but having only 2 decks for the entire year will only last them so long, and not only that, the variety is so limited. I kind of view the loss of Planeswalker Decks in 2021 Core set in favor of Commander Decks in the D&D set as sort of a betrayal. Those who want to play quick casual games of 60-card base rules, where it doesn't matter whether we win or lose, now get nothing. It's WOTC saying that players like us don't exist.

    I'd say do 4 Challenger Decks, and 3 of the 4 sets will have 2 Commander decks, and 2 casual 60-card base rules precons, while the last set would be the main Commander release with 5 Commander Decks. That is the best way to release precons, and keep it that way.

    It's as if WOTC is so incompetent at making $15 60-card base rules precons that they gave up.

    Quote from Morphling »
    He's upset like many older players that Commander completely just bumrushed "classic" 60-card casual Magic and it just wasn't even kind of subtle. Commander just TOOK OVER (good, bad, whatever..it's HAPPENING!!)

    All the 'casual' precons are now Commander precons. 60-card casual isn't really a thing they even talk about anymore and that's a little sad. People have been playing that way since Alpha. Our format had regular internet content & articles each week. We had metas. We had staples. We had entire articles devoted to game 'casual' game theory. Yep, just like Commander. 20 years worth of it. It really wasn't a bunch of blathering drooling idiots sitting around their kitchen tables "just playing whatever crap we had lying around" like everyone seems to think.


    "60 cards casual" was always a *****ty format. It was so *****ty that it doesn't even have a proper name. It was played by people because they didn't know better. As soon as they did, they moved from that failed "format". When a new casual emerged, people started to play that in bulk. Because commander was an improvement.
    You may personally disagree, but the vast majority of customers spoke loudly.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    Wrong. WOTC could have easily charged you $25 for the Innistrad ones, but guess what. those ones are the $50 variety, according to preorder on most stores I visited. WOTC will never charge $25 for Commander decks ever again. I could be wrong though, maybe the Kamigawa one will be the $25 kind.

    Sounds like the problem is you buying from *****ty sites. I can get them for the same prices as the Kaldheim ones.

    Quote from signofzeta »

    Speaking of entry points for standard, those Commander decks are entry points for standard? Most of the deck isn't even standard legal. Do you know what this means? People who learn through Commander will stick with Commander, not like they are going to play Standard anyway considering how it sucks right now.

    And you think that old precons were entry points for standard? Planeswalker decks were entry point for standards? Are you that delusional?
    You know what happened when someone wanted to play standard with the old precon system? They tossed away their precon and started building a new. Nowadays we just eliminated a passage.

    Quote from signofzeta »

    If every single 60-card base rules precons are failures, it's because WOTC sucked at making them good. First few Duel Decks, good. The last few ones, horrible, well according to most other people anyway. This also tells me another thing, which I said in my initial rant a few months ago. WOTC has no confidence in the 60-card base rules game, which is why we get Commander and more Commander now. What's to say that WOTC does something like, "Commander is printing us money, Standard isn't. Why are we even trying with Standard anymore?"

    So they failed making a product almost all the time but they should continue trying?
    While commander precons are always successfull, they should stop making them?
    Maybe if "60 cards casual" products failed so much, it's because they have no reason to exists in the first place.
    You aren't even coherent. You talk about standard, then duel decks, then standard again. Duel decks were never standard legal. They were an entry point for nothing. They weren't useful in any 60-cards format.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    I already mentioned the pioneer decks. When I initially ranted about that, and that was when we got Commander decks in the D&D set instead of Planeswalker decks, it is because those who like to play 60-card base rules precons get relegated to just 4 choices for 2021.

    Be happy about that instead of ranting. 4 decks is still more than what you deserved.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    WOTC cares about money now. They don't care about the game. Magic is dying. Yup, I said it. Magic is dying, well at least the ruleset in which the game is founded upon is dying, at least on Paper. WOTC can just half-ass their Standard sets, because they know Commander will print them money. If 60-card base rules wasn't dying, then WOTC would be confident in printing more 60-card base rules precons.

    Ahahahahah, how can you be so short-sighted? Stop thinking that everything in the world revolves around you. They stopped printing products that you personally like. They welcomed and are entertaining tons of new players with commander. Mtg is nowhere near close to dying and when it will start to decline, it won't be because of commander.


    I wasn't talking about what stores are charging. I am talking about every single Commander deck here on out will cost as much as the Strixhaven ones. The only $25 precons are going to be the 2 from Zendikar Rising and 2 from Kaldheim. That's it. Unless WOTC proves me otherwise with Kamigawa or any future set, that is how it is going to be.

    The old precons are bad entry points to standard,and you think Commander is better? Don't make me laugh.

    It's people like you is why I went from being indifferent to Commander to outright hating it. Commander this, Commander that. You think 4 60-card base rules precons is more than enough? I bet you haven't been in a situation where you are the minority, and you got nothing, while the majority got everything. I am not asking to have the 60-card base rules precons, which can be casual or competitive, to outnumber the Commander Decks. All I ask for is to consistently, every year, to have 10 of them, spread out throught the year, rather than having just the one release. I don't care if there are 100 Commander decks released in one year so long as I get 10 60-card base rules precons. 2021 is OK. What about 2022, 2023?

    Everything in the world revolving around me? How is asking for something aimed at casual 60-card players as something that revolves around me? I already got over that the Planeswalker Decks are gone. I just want some sort of precon aimed at 60-card casual players. Is that so hard to ask? It doesn't have to be Standard legal, although it would be great if it was.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Ok, so everybody likes Commander, and that whoever prefers 60-card base rules deserve nothing. Not only that, everybody wants precons to cost $50 and not $15.

    You are irrational it's not even fun. There are expensive commander precons and cheap commander precons. Zendikar Rising, Kaldheim and Commander Legends all had cheap precons. Nowhere they said they would remove cheap precons. In fact Innistrad ones won't cost as much as Strixhaven/Forgotten Realms ones.
    Also a 15$ commander precons is worth more than a 5$ old precons, because you don't have to discard that as soon as you learn how to play. You talk about entry products for standard, but old precons were absolutely worthless for playing standard.

    Quote from signofzeta »
    The only time I care and rant about it is if WOTC would rather release more Commander decks while releasing even less 60-card base rules precons, y'know, Theme Deck, Intro Pack, Planeswalker deck, Duel Deck, Event Deck, Clash Pack, Arena Starter Kits, Challenger decks etc. If WOTC can only limit themselves to a certain number of precons per year, and they would rather have almost all of them be Commander decks, while leaving close to nothing for 60-card base rules precons, I will rant about it.

    I wonder why they would keep releasing successfull products and stop releasing failed ones.... it's a mystery, really...

    Quote from signofzeta »
    2022 will project to have up to 20 Commander decks

    Wow i wonder why. Oh yeah because they know they will sell them.

    You are actually gonna get a 60 card precon this year. The pioneer decks. So why are you ranting?
    Oh yeah, you are already saying they will fail. Eheheh, i really wonder why wotc doesn't print more of those...


    Wrong. WOTC could have easily charged you $25 for the Innistrad ones, but guess what. those ones are the $50 variety, according to preorder on most stores I visited. WOTC will never charge $25 for Commander decks ever again. I could be wrong though, maybe the Kamigawa one will be the $25 kind.

    Speaking of entry points for standard, those Commander decks are entry points for standard? Most of the deck isn't even standard legal. Do you know what this means? People who learn through Commander will stick with Commander, not like they are going to play Standard anyway considering how it sucks right now.

    If every single 60-card base rules precons are failures, it's because WOTC sucked at making them good. First few Duel Decks, good. The last few ones, horrible, well according to most other people anyway. This also tells me another thing, which I said in my initial rant a few months ago. WOTC has no confidence in the 60-card base rules game, which is why we get Commander and more Commander now. What's to say that WOTC does something like, "Commander is printing us money, Standard isn't. Why are we even trying with Standard anymore?"

    I already mentioned the pioneer decks. When I initially ranted about that, and that was when we got Commander decks in the D&D set instead of Planeswalker decks, it is because those who like to play 60-card base rules precons get relegated to just 4 choices for 2021. The 4 Pioneer Challenger decks essentially almost brought back the choices that were gone when the Planeswalker decks left. There is still one problem, Pioneer Challenger decks are $50. The rant in this thread is about what is going to happen in 2022. What if the Pioneer Challenger decks fail? We will be back down to 6 choices, the 4 Challenger decks and the Arena Starter Kit.

    WOTC cares about money now. They don't care about the game. Magic is dying. Yup, I said it. Magic is dying, well at least the ruleset in which the game is founded upon is dying, at least on Paper. WOTC can just half-ass their Standard sets, because they know Commander will print them money. If 60-card base rules wasn't dying, then WOTC would be confident in printing more 60-card base rules precons.

    I am going to assume the Pioneer Challenger decks are going to be an annual thing, and even if it is a one year thing, I will assume that there will be at least a set of 4 60-card base rules precons released in the Fall, opposite to when the Challenger decks get release in the Spring every year. If we don't get at least 10 different 60-card base rules precons next year, or in any year in the future for that matter, expect the same rant over and over again. I will say this. Pioneer Challenger deck will fail not because people don't want them, it is because people don't want them at $50. It's the same with the Premium deck series. I thought that product was a great idea, aside from the price.

    Charging $50 for a "new player product" is laughable.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from Dontrike »

    I'm pretty sure I already read this rant with the almost exact same words somewhere else multiple times. If you're so much upset of how the game is today, maybe is better for you to not play it at all anymore and let the other people enjoy it.

    Ah yes the good ol' "if you don't like it leave" logic, because you can't not like things in something you enjoy, because if you do then it means you hate it.


    Actually that's the argument held by signofzeta. Since he likes and wants old precons, we must have old precons. No matter if old precons were faulty products useful almost to no one. No matter if the majority of people like commander precons more. No matter if wotc sells more commander precon. Everyone must discard commander precons and accept old precons because signofzeta said so. His multiple and long rants are worth more than the opinion of everyone else.


    Ok, so everybody likes Commander, and that whoever prefers 60-card base rules deserve nothing. Not only that, everybody wants precons to cost $50 and not $15.

    It's not about Theme Decks, Intro Packs, and Planeswalker decks anymore. It is about losing even more 60-card base rules precon options in favor of even more Commander decks, and also having more expensive precons outnumber the cheaper ones.

    WOTC can release 100 Commander decks in a single year, and I wouldn't care about it. The only time I care and rant about it is if WOTC would rather release more Commander decks while releasing even less 60-card base rules precons, y'know, Theme Deck, Intro Pack, Planeswalker deck, Duel Deck, Event Deck, Clash Pack, Arena Starter Kits, Challenger decks etc. If WOTC can only limit themselves to a certain number of precons per year, and they would rather have almost all of them be Commander decks, while leaving close to nothing for 60-card base rules precons, I will rant about it.

    2020, the first year that the set associated precons became Commander decks, we got 13 60-card base rules precons and 9 Commander decks.

    In April of 2021, at the time I first ranted about this, we had 4 base rules precons and projected to have 15 Commander decks. We now have the Arena Starter kit and Pioneer Challenger decks, so the number of 60-card base rules precons went up to 10 instead of the 4 Standard Challenger decks we got, which made me start the rant.

    Now the rant in this thread is what happens when the Pioneer Challenger decks fail. 2022 will project to have up to 20 Commander decks, while 2022 will guaranteed to have 4 60-card base rules precons. I don't know if there will be a 2022 Arena Starter kit, and I don't know if another set of 60-card base rules precons replace the failed Pioneer Challenger deck. I will rant if they are replaced by Commander decks despite already having 20 of them.

    I'm ranting about how because everybody likes Commander, which is false, they get everything, while those who don't get nothing. Sure we get Challenger Decks for the Standard players, Pioneer Challenger decks for pioneer players, and NOTHING for casual 60-card base rules players, but what's to stop WOTC from going Commander, Commander, Commander, more Commander, and even more Commander, while those who prefer 60-card base rules precons get absolutely nothing?
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from Dontrike »

    I'm pretty sure I already read this rant with the almost exact same words somewhere else multiple times. If you're so much upset of how the game is today, maybe is better for you to not play it at all anymore and let the other people enjoy it.

    Ah yes the good ol' "if you don't like it leave" logic, because you can't not like things in something you enjoy, because if you do then it means you hate it.


    This particular user is kinda obsessed with this argument, so much obsessed that, as I said, he even copy-paste literally the same wall of text in any contest for years. I wasn't talking in general. That's why I said if he was so obsessed for something that he got anyway no power over, it was better for him to enjoy something else instead of being so much frustrated and obsessed about EDH being popular over the old precon decks.


    Years? Hahahaha you're funny. Years. This person thinks 2 months is "years". Find a post where I complained about Commander in the year 2020 and earlier. I had one long argument about this in April of 2021 when it was announced that D&D set would have commander decks, and in this thread. The only other time I probably complained was when intro packs became Planeswalker decks. I guess 2 years, albeit not consecutive, counts as "years". Also notice that I never made this "wall of text" when it was first announced that Planeswalker decks were becoming commander decks, sometime in late 2019/early 2020?

    When it comes to wanting Theme Decks back or any post about intro packs, I have posted about it over the years. About how WOTC unfairly pandering to Commander when it came to precons, then by your definition, 2 months = years.

    Ok 3 months, April, May, and September 2021 in 3 separate threads.

    Pffft. Years.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Quote from signofzeta »




    I'm pretty sure I already read this rant with the almost exact same words somewhere else multiple times. If you're so much upset of how the game is today, maybe is better for you to not play it at all anymore and let the other people enjoy it.


    Let me guess, you are ok with WOTC charging double price for a product targeted for new players compared to their competitors, and you are ok with WOTC pandering to one format at the detriment of another. As long as their introductory products, that cost $30 to $50 caters towards bringing in more Commander players, that means that those players won't even try to even play any format that use the base rules, either because the cards are expensive, or they lose all the time. With that in mind, why would WOTC even try to give the effort in making Standard better? With the crappy standard, people would just quit standard and go to Commander, and thus WOTC would support Commander even more, and thus put even less effort into Standard, or any other base rules format, and those players would flock to commander, and thus WOTC supports Commander even more, and thus puts even less effort into standard...

    But let's say we live in a scenario where Standard is completely dead. It's all Commander. Remember how the Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim Commander decks costed $25 each? The idea of $25 Commander decks are long gone. I predict that every future Commander deck will be the $50 variety. And they say that these are supposed to replace the Planeswalker decks? Do you know what should have replaced Planeswalker Decks? Almost something that cost just as much as them. Theme boosters are utter trash. I wish they just brought back Theme Decks.

    WOTC is thinking about money. Short term gain for long term pain.

    You know how we all laugh at those who are saying that Magic is dying? Well in a way it is dying. People would rather play by its alternate rules than its base rules.

    From what I read, Pioneer is a dead format, and thus the Pioneer decks will most likely be a one year occurrence. I just hope there are 60-card preconstructed products to replace them, and if they replace them with yet another set of Commander decks, expect another rant.


    In my opinion pioneer is dying due to two reasons, the rona and historic. I think a lot of people like myself started around return to ravnica days and have physical collections that they can’t really play with. My lgs hasn’t returned to paper magic and last I was there was using the play area as storage. (It’s still doing very well cuz it also is a comic book store). Historic on arena is a lot easier to get into in my opinion than pioneer would be on mtgo. I think they’re are focusing on commander for two reasons. You can still play commander with family and friends even if you can’t go to an lgs. The other is fairly obvious $$$. I do agree with the idea that they should have digital redemption codes in all of their products.


    Yeah, well, I used to play the 60-card base rules style of game at home, so it isn't like just because you are a casual player, you just have to play Commander. If the Pioneer challenger decks are a one year thing, I hope there are some other 60-card base rules precon products to replace it.

    What about the arena starter kits? Do you think WOTC will continue to make them?

    In 2020, we had 13 60-card preconstructed decks and 9 Commander decks.
    In 2021, we are projected to have 10 60-card preconstructed decks and 15 commander decks.
    In 2022, we are projected to have 6 60-card preconstructed decks and 13 commander decks.

    In the fall of 2022, what would be a great preconstructed 60-card product, that plays by the base rules, that WOTC could release in case the Pioneer challenger decks don't pan out? 6 decks in 2022 isn't enough. I'd like each year to have 10 60-card precons. Either 3 releases with 4 Challenger decks, 2 deck Arena Starter Kit and 4 decks of something, or 2 releases of 5 decks each, so 5 challenger decks in April and 5 other decks in October.

    I'd like WOTC to introduce a product to mirror Yugioh's $10 structure decks, and Pokemon's $15 V Battle Decks. The Challenger decks is kind of like Pokemon's $30 League Battle Decks.

    New Capenna seems like it would be the main Commander release with 5 decks, but I have said it many times. I would like to see a set of 2 60-card decks with MTG Arena codes in them, like the Arena Starter Kit released alongside the remaining 3 sets to go along with the 2 Commander decks. I assume the D&D set with its 4 Commander decks is the outlier and that from now on, ever Winter, Summer, and Fall set will have 2 Commander decks.

    I would like to see Core Sets return and release in the Spring alongside the main Commander release while having the Standard rotation in August. The Core sets should not be advertised as the newbie set, but as a reprint set and as a means to keep some cards in standard longer by reprinting them. That release would have the 20xx core set, 5 20xx commander decks (not 20xx core set commander decks), and the 4 20xx Challenger decks. No Arena Starter kits released along side this set. All the other 3 sets would have 2 Commander decks and 2 casual 60-card decks with MTG Arena codes, that focuses on the set's mechanics, because Commander is a poor tool to teach players about the mechanics of the set. Unless the Coven Counters commander deck is filled with Coven cards, then that deck won't teach any player about Coven. The mechanically based decks would be the 60-card decks while things like tribal or non-set specific mechanic strategies would be the Commander decks. Something where you can fill the entire deck with that strategy, as you don't have to draw from the one set that uses the mechanic. I would also like to see MTG Arena have a format where only the 60-card decks I mentioned before, the ones that would come with 3 of the standard sets, are legal. Pokemon had the theme deck format, and I would like to see that in MTG Arena.

    If my idea holds true, there will be 13 Commander decks (I am adding 2 Commander decks for the Universes beyond, or maybe a non-standard set might come with Commander), and 10 60-card precons. This idea is only a means to get the number of 60-card preconstructed decks to 10 for each year, in case the Pioneer Challenger decks aren't annual and only happen for 2021. I hope that in 2022, there are 10 60-card base rules preconstructed deck options.


    You math is off for how many Commander Decks we can expect next year.

    If we are right and New Capenna gets the 5 2022 Commander Decks and every other standard set gets 2 each, fir 6 more Decks you'd be 11 Decks, but you forgot the 4 Warhammer Commander Decks already announced (even the reprints get new Warhammer art), that brings it to 15 Decks.

    But wait there is more because no way does Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate not get 2 to 5 Commander Decks given Commanders and AFR Both got them. 4 is the most likely number for the reasons and more that AFR got 4 (for playing during breaks with the party during a D&D session). They really emphasized the social and multi-player aspects of Commander Legends: Battle For Baldur's Gate so that will likely extend to the Commander Decks.

    That 19 to 20 Commander Precon Decks next year, a huge increase, which I think they'd only have the budget for if they stopped doing to cheaper 60 card Decks. Maybe they will still do the Arena Starter Decks at least.



    That's way too much. It makes me hate the format even more.

    As long as we get 10 60-card base rules precons per year, I don't care about how many Commander decks we get. Considering how Commander decks are $50 each and each game can be very long, any player won't even have the time and money to even try out all the decks. So what's the point in having so many? At least with Intro Packs, they are cheap, so I can buy all of them without spending too much, and your standard 1 v 1 games don't last very long, and thus I can play through many of the decks to get a feel for the set. You don't get a feel for all the mechanics unless you play with all of the set associated precons. Commander being $50 and the games lasting very long don't do that.

    WOTC is thinking about money, not the game. It makes Yugioh fans calling Konami "Komoney" seem like nothing. All this pandering to Commander is because that is where the money is coming in, and they have every excuse to not even try with any of the other formats, and to charge $50 for each precon instead of $15.

    Despite Commander being popular, WOTC needs to recognize that Commander is the alternate format, just like speed duels in Yugioh.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Do you know what getting rid of Core Set means? It means that every set's associated precons are Commander. I hate that. Can't they just release 2 Commander Decks and 2 Planeswalker Decks? Y'know, give new players the choice?

    We used to have 24 preconstructed decks that you could buy for under $25 after taxes. You have the 20 Intro Packs and the 4 duel decks, well 2 sets of 2 duel decks. All we have in 2021 are the 2 Arena Starter Kit decks, and the next cheapest option would be the $30 challenger decks.

    We also don't know how much the Innistrad midnight Hunt commander decks will cost, but a store is selling it for $85 on preorder.

    Cardfight Vanguard has $5 Start Decks. They aren't half decks or decks where you have to do something to make a complete deck. They are full 50 card decks. There are also 5 to choose from. That's cheap, and you get some choices. In 2021, Yugioh has 4 choices of under $15 precon decks and Pokemon has 6 choices. MTG only has 2, well you buy the thing and you get both in the form of the Arena Starter Kit. Anything else is higher than $20.

    Because Commander is so popular, WOTC has no incentive to make Standard good anymore. Just keep on selling $50 commander decks, and keep releasing standard sets that people will buy without even thinking about the health of the format.

    If I made a game, and someone else took my game, changed the rules a bit, and now everybody else is playing my game by the new rules, while I am desperately trying to get new players to play by my rules, I'd give up, and get people to play by the new rules, because that is where the money is.

    There are deck construction rules, like 60-card, 100 card singleton, 40 card limited, and the gameplay rules, like your base rules, Commander, Vanguard, Archenemy, and Planechase. I've said this before. WOTC is over supporting Commander because they lack the confidence to make the base rules better than Commander. They aren't trying anymore.

    You want reprints? Try our $10 a pack masters sets.




    I'm pretty sure I already read this rant with the almost exact same words somewhere else multiple times. If you're so much upset of how the game is today, maybe is better for you to not play it at all anymore and let the other people enjoy it.


    Let me guess, you are ok with WOTC charging double price for a product targeted for new players compared to their competitors, and you are ok with WOTC pandering to one format at the detriment of another. As long as their introductory products, that cost $30 to $50 caters towards bringing in more Commander players, that means that those players won't even try to even play any format that use the base rules, either because the cards are expensive, or they lose all the time. With that in mind, why would WOTC even try to give the effort in making Standard better? With the crappy standard, people would just quit standard and go to Commander, and thus WOTC would support Commander even more, and thus put even less effort into Standard, or any other base rules format, and those players would flock to commander, and thus WOTC supports Commander even more, and thus puts even less effort into standard...

    But let's say we live in a scenario where Standard is completely dead. It's all Commander. Remember how the Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim Commander decks costed $25 each? The idea of $25 Commander decks are long gone. I predict that every future Commander deck will be the $50 variety. And they say that these are supposed to replace the Planeswalker decks? Do you know what should have replaced Planeswalker Decks? Almost something that cost just as much as them. Theme boosters are utter trash. I wish they just brought back Theme Decks.

    WOTC is thinking about money. Short term gain for long term pain.

    You know how we all laugh at those who are saying that Magic is dying? Well in a way it is dying. People would rather play by its alternate rules than its base rules.

    From what I read, Pioneer is a dead format, and thus the Pioneer decks will most likely be a one year occurrence. I just hope there are 60-card preconstructed products to replace them, and if they replace them with yet another set of Commander decks, expect another rant.


    In my opinion pioneer is dying due to two reasons, the rona and historic. I think a lot of people like myself started around return to ravnica days and have physical collections that they can’t really play with. My lgs hasn’t returned to paper magic and last I was there was using the play area as storage. (It’s still doing very well cuz it also is a comic book store). Historic on arena is a lot easier to get into in my opinion than pioneer would be on mtgo. I think they’re are focusing on commander for two reasons. You can still play commander with family and friends even if you can’t go to an lgs. The other is fairly obvious $$$. I do agree with the idea that they should have digital redemption codes in all of their products.


    Yeah, well, I used to play the 60-card base rules style of game at home, so it isn't like just because you are a casual player, you just have to play Commander. If the Pioneer challenger decks are a one year thing, I hope there are some other 60-card base rules precon products to replace it.

    What about the arena starter kits? Do you think WOTC will continue to make them?

    In 2020, we had 13 60-card preconstructed decks and 9 Commander decks.
    In 2021, we are projected to have 10 60-card preconstructed decks and 15 commander decks.
    In 2022, we are projected to have 6 60-card preconstructed decks and 13 commander decks.

    In the fall of 2022, what would be a great preconstructed 60-card product, that plays by the base rules, that WOTC could release in case the Pioneer challenger decks don't pan out? 6 decks in 2022 isn't enough. I'd like each year to have 10 60-card precons. Either 3 releases with 4 Challenger decks, 2 deck Arena Starter Kit and 4 decks of something, or 2 releases of 5 decks each, so 5 challenger decks in April and 5 other decks in October.

    I'd like WOTC to introduce a product to mirror Yugioh's $10 structure decks, and Pokemon's $15 V Battle Decks. The Challenger decks is kind of like Pokemon's $30 League Battle Decks.

    New Capenna seems like it would be the main Commander release with 5 decks, but I have said it many times. I would like to see a set of 2 60-card decks with MTG Arena codes in them, like the Arena Starter Kit released alongside the remaining 3 sets to go along with the 2 Commander decks. I assume the D&D set with its 4 Commander decks is the outlier and that from now on, ever Winter, Summer, and Fall set will have 2 Commander decks.

    I would like to see Core Sets return and release in the Spring alongside the main Commander release while having the Standard rotation in August. The Core sets should not be advertised as the newbie set, but as a reprint set and as a means to keep some cards in standard longer by reprinting them. That release would have the 20xx core set, 5 20xx commander decks (not 20xx core set commander decks), and the 4 20xx Challenger decks. No Arena Starter kits released along side this set. All the other 3 sets would have 2 Commander decks and 2 casual 60-card decks with MTG Arena codes, that focuses on the set's mechanics, because Commander is a poor tool to teach players about the mechanics of the set. Unless the Coven Counters commander deck is filled with Coven cards, then that deck won't teach any player about Coven. The mechanically based decks would be the 60-card decks while things like tribal or non-set specific mechanic strategies would be the Commander decks. Something where you can fill the entire deck with that strategy, as you don't have to draw from the one set that uses the mechanic. I would also like to see MTG Arena have a format where only the 60-card decks I mentioned before, the ones that would come with 3 of the standard sets, are legal. Pokemon had the theme deck format, and I would like to see that in MTG Arena.

    If my idea holds true, there will be 13 Commander decks (I am adding 2 Commander decks for the Universes beyond, or maybe a non-standard set might come with Commander), and 10 60-card precons. This idea is only a means to get the number of 60-card preconstructed decks to 10 for each year, in case the Pioneer Challenger decks aren't annual and only happen for 2021. I hope that in 2022, there are 10 60-card base rules preconstructed deck options.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Do you know what getting rid of Core Set means? It means that every set's associated precons are Commander. I hate that. Can't they just release 2 Commander Decks and 2 Planeswalker Decks? Y'know, give new players the choice?

    We used to have 24 preconstructed decks that you could buy for under $25 after taxes. You have the 20 Intro Packs and the 4 duel decks, well 2 sets of 2 duel decks. All we have in 2021 are the 2 Arena Starter Kit decks, and the next cheapest option would be the $30 challenger decks.

    We also don't know how much the Innistrad midnight Hunt commander decks will cost, but a store is selling it for $85 on preorder.

    Cardfight Vanguard has $5 Start Decks. They aren't half decks or decks where you have to do something to make a complete deck. They are full 50 card decks. There are also 5 to choose from. That's cheap, and you get some choices. In 2021, Yugioh has 4 choices of under $15 precon decks and Pokemon has 6 choices. MTG only has 2, well you buy the thing and you get both in the form of the Arena Starter Kit. Anything else is higher than $20.

    Because Commander is so popular, WOTC has no incentive to make Standard good anymore. Just keep on selling $50 commander decks, and keep releasing standard sets that people will buy without even thinking about the health of the format.

    If I made a game, and someone else took my game, changed the rules a bit, and now everybody else is playing my game by the new rules, while I am desperately trying to get new players to play by my rules, I'd give up, and get people to play by the new rules, because that is where the money is.

    There are deck construction rules, like 60-card, 100 card singleton, 40 card limited, and the gameplay rules, like your base rules, Commander, Vanguard, Archenemy, and Planechase. I've said this before. WOTC is over supporting Commander because they lack the confidence to make the base rules better than Commander. They aren't trying anymore.

    You want reprints? Try our $10 a pack masters sets.




    I'm pretty sure I already read this rant with the almost exact same words somewhere else multiple times. If you're so much upset of how the game is today, maybe is better for you to not play it at all anymore and let the other people enjoy it.


    Let me guess, you are ok with WOTC charging double price for a product targeted for new players compared to their competitors, and you are ok with WOTC pandering to one format at the detriment of another. As long as their introductory products, that cost $30 to $50 caters towards bringing in more Commander players, that means that those players won't even try to even play any format that use the base rules, either because the cards are expensive, or they lose all the time. With that in mind, why would WOTC even try to give the effort in making Standard better? With the crappy standard, people would just quit standard and go to Commander, and thus WOTC would support Commander even more, and thus put even less effort into Standard, or any other base rules format, and those players would flock to commander, and thus WOTC supports Commander even more, and thus puts even less effort into standard...

    But let's say we live in a scenario where Standard is completely dead. It's all Commander. Remember how the Zendikar Rising and Kaldheim Commander decks costed $25 each? The idea of $25 Commander decks are long gone. I predict that every future Commander deck will be the $50 variety. And they say that these are supposed to replace the Planeswalker decks? Do you know what should have replaced Planeswalker Decks? Almost something that cost just as much as them. Theme boosters are utter trash. I wish they just brought back Theme Decks.

    WOTC is thinking about money. Short term gain for long term pain.

    You know how we all laugh at those who are saying that Magic is dying? Well in a way it is dying. People would rather play by its alternate rules than its base rules.

    From what I read, Pioneer is a dead format, and thus the Pioneer decks will most likely be a one year occurrence. I just hope there are 60-card preconstructed products to replace them, and if they replace them with yet another set of Commander decks, expect another rant.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Modern Event Decks were a one year thing. Brawl decks were a one year thing. Do you think the Pioneer Challenger decks are going to be a one year thing, or is it going to be an annual thing? If the Pioneer Challenger decks flop, I really hope, because they got rid of the core set, and thus the Planeswalker Decks that go with it, that they have some sort of 60-card preconstructed product released in the fall. I don't want to be limited to just the 4 Challenger Decks and the Arena Starter kit.

    I already complained enough about how the D&D set did not have Planeswalker Decks, and how every set from now on will feature Commander Decks, and that my options for 60-card precons have become more limited than before, so I hope that if the Pioneer Challenger Decks fail, there are replacement 60-card deck product line for them. I will complain even more if WOTC introduces yet even more Commander Deck options in lieu of the 60-card variety. In 2021, there are 10 60-card precons and 15 commander decks.

    Ideally, I would like to see 60-card precons be brought back as the set associated precons, but only for the sets that have 2 Commander deck choices. These decks would replace the Arena Starter Kit, well not replace, but the Arena Starter Kit won't be one package containing 2 decks but 2 separate deck choices released with each set. So each year would have one set containing the 5 annual major Commander deck release, and the other 3 sets would contain the 2 Commander deck and the 2 60-card precons that contains code cards that can bring the deck into MTG Arena. It's not really adding anything. It is just replacing what would have been the Pionner Challenger Decks, if it fails, and the Arena Starter Kit. There would still be 10 60-card deck options.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Do you know what getting rid of Core Set means? It means that every set's associated precons are Commander. I hate that. Can't they just release 2 Commander Decks and 2 Planeswalker Decks? Y'know, give new players the choice?

    We used to have 24 preconstructed decks that you could buy for under $25 after taxes. You have the 20 Intro Packs and the 4 duel decks, well 2 sets of 2 duel decks. All we have in 2021 are the 2 Arena Starter Kit decks, and the next cheapest option would be the $30 challenger decks.

    We also don't know how much the Innistrad midnight Hunt commander decks will cost, but a store is selling it for $85 on preorder.

    Cardfight Vanguard has $5 Start Decks. They aren't half decks or decks where you have to do something to make a complete deck. They are full 50 card decks. There are also 5 to choose from. That's cheap, and you get some choices. In 2021, Yugioh has 4 choices of under $15 precon decks and Pokemon has 6 choices. MTG only has 2, well you buy the thing and you get both in the form of the Arena Starter Kit. Anything else is higher than $20.

    Because Commander is so popular, WOTC has no incentive to make Standard good anymore. Just keep on selling $50 commander decks, and keep releasing standard sets that people will buy without even thinking about the health of the format.

    If I made a game, and someone else took my game, changed the rules a bit, and now everybody else is playing my game by the new rules, while I am desperately trying to get new players to play by my rules, I'd give up, and get people to play by the new rules, because that is where the money is.

    There are deck construction rules, like 60-card, 100 card singleton, 40 card limited, and the gameplay rules, like your base rules, Commander, Vanguard, Archenemy, and Planechase. I've said this before. WOTC is over supporting Commander because they lack the confidence to make the base rules better than Commander. They aren't trying anymore.

    You want reprints? Try our $10 a pack masters sets.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Core Sets will exist when WOTC thinks about the game.

    Core Sets will not exist when WOTC thinks about money.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Magic Showcase 2021
    Quote from Grixh »
    Quote from signofzeta »
    Don't you find it funny how every storyline for the spring set always revolves around 5 of something based on color, and each of those somethings have to be color balanced with the other 4 because the Spring set happens to have the major annual Commander deck release? Before the major annual Commander deck release being tied to the Spring set, the sets weren't color based because there were no Commander Decks to be made for them. The story of those sets weren't based on color identity, and now, with Ikoria, Strixhaven, and Capenna, it is all about color identity.

    Do you think Ikoria and Strixhaven are "specific color combinations matter" sets? Even if gameplaywise, color does not matter, the story still revolves around 5 of something based on color, because of Commander.

    What I'm saying is, the storyline of those sets isn't influencing the Commander decks. Commander is influencing the story of the set.

    It has been done where Commander didn't influence the story of the set, and that set is the D&D set.


    They do 5 faction sets pretty commonly, so it could be a coincidence or they could have simply shifted the 5 faction sets to match the commander products.


    I was wondering if Commander had any influence as to how the story is told for the Spring sets. Sure, every set has 5 factions, but some aren't as big of a deal as others, while Ikoria, Strixhaven, and most like Capenna, the 5 factions are a big deal. For Ikoria and Strixhaven, rather than something are these colors, like Werewolves are Red Green, it is Red White is Lorehold. Color combination is a certain faction because of the Commander influence in these sets.

    I predict that, as long as the major Commander set release is tied to the Spring set, every spring set will have a storyline involving "these colors are a specific faction".
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
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