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  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    You seem to keep missing specific points and cherry-picking what to reply to. If you're to the point of bringing up ancestral in this argument then I'm thinking this is just a waste if time.

    Honestly when someone gets this defensive over a topic of comparison, it immediately makes me assume that they are just wanting to ban something specific you personally dislike. Especially when they simply refuse to acknowledge a comparison. Your replies just makes it sound like you hate loosing to someone running DT but can't handle the idea of banning land-ramp.

    My main table has had this conversation years ago and our outcome was, as I reiterated above, that it boils down to cmc and competitive nature of the deck. We have all agreed that green tends to get forgotten in these conversation.

    If you want to ban vampiric tutor, then go ahead and ban mystical tutor and enlightened tutor, but you still need to ban crop rotation and green suns zenith. If you want to ban demonic tutor that's fine, but you would need to ban all the 2cmc farseeks and sylvan scrying. If you want to ban cruel tutor and fabricate then it's only fair to ban cultivate. If you really think diabolic tutor is ban-worthy then you need to ban explosive vegetation.

    It doesn't really matter what I think. If DT gets to you so much then just talk to your own friends about it and develop house rules that are agreed upon all of your friends. Above all, you need to be able to compromise with your friends.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    I'm very curious about what everyone's meta is like, specifically in regards to deck power and average victory turns.

    The very first sentence I said in this topic was how if people complain about demonic tutor to the point of banning it, then this is complaining about is the color pie. Strict tutoring has been a black effect since alpha. If you want to ban something that is a part of a color identity then you probably just need to make personal house rules for your friends to decide.

    My consistent referance to rampant growth/farseek/into the north/nature's lore/three visits has been due to the similarity of mana cost with demonic tutor.

    I never mentioned cultivate because I feel it is weaker. In my meta something that costs 3cmc has to be very relevant. Perhaps this is different for all of you.

    There is only one demonic tutor. But as listed, there are many rampant growths. If you want to expand the complaint of demonic tutor variants to include all strict tutors like vampiric tutor, that's fine. There will always be more green land-ramp tutors that cheat hard-to-deal with permenants strait into play.

    People here seem to be complaining about consistent games due to just a small pool of tutors. Are people complaining about someone fetching a combo part just to end the game?

    In terms of just an average table there are less than 5 playable and efficient strict demonic tutor effects. There may be a few highly specific off-color tutors to help like mystical tutor/fabricate/gamble/etc. IMO a stronger deck will run just the efficient tutors, which is likely less than 8 cards total. In that same meta there are easily 10+ relevant land ramp spells, all 3cmc or below, that are also tutoring permenants strait into the battlefield.

    Do you all actually believe that decks using land-ramp tutors are less consistent than a deck running fewer demonic tutor effects or color-restricted highly specific tutors like enlightened tutor?

    Maybe that's how all of your tables play out. That's not at all how any of my tables work. If we are not playing near-cedh then green/blue/x ramp+value decks will always outperform everything else. If combo decks are not included then most games are decided as soon as someone reveals a green/blue/x legendary, unless people actively team up and aggro them.

    Maybe you all just love ramping. I know at the core of this format everyone loves to ramp and cast big spells. So if you somehow got offended by me pointing out that land-|amp tutors make decks more consistent than demonic tutors, sorry. But my opinion stays - if you want to ban an effect that one color is known for, then you're just unbalancing the game and showing other color(s) favoritism. That should stay at your own table as a house rule.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander

    If your thesis is that rampant growth and similar ramps help a combo more than demonic tutor... well, does that really need an answer?


    I'm not at all sure how you arrived to this thesis, so I have absolutely no idea how to even reply to this.

    I've also not mentioned cultivate once. I've been talking about the pile of 2cmc ramps like rampant growth/farseek/nature's lore/three visits/into the north.

    I can't re-re-reiterate this all over again. I'll just step out of the conversation and let you all enjoy.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    I never said that the player that ramped out 8 lands was playing battlecruiser or attacking. In my area, and from my experiance visiting cons, a very common trend are green/blue/x decks that just ramp+draw out the opponents till they have far more answers and mana and just overwhelm the table until they assemble a combo.

    Yes they "might" fail to a counterspell when they try to draw big after ramping, but if they've been sitting on a remora or have any counter ready then it is all an uphill fight. If their commander offers card advantage (like most green/blue legends), then most games are decided once we reveal all of our commanders. We have to actively waste early game resources just to not die.

    My complaint here is that an average budget green/blue ramp deck can typically outperform an optimal non-green non-combo deck. This is mainly due to greens tutor ability to cheat lands in to play, and the sheer volume of ramp tutors available making for obnoxious consistancy.

    But I also know people love their ramp, and doubt anything i say will ever reach any relivant ears. I'm just a mono red, rakdos and grixis fan that enjoys being blown out by boundless realms followed by bane of progress/devastation tide trash in "casual" games. It's always fun to just scoop up my cards and pick a combo deck with tutors and fast mana.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Anti-Ramp: Solutions?
    Honestly they need more effects like myriad landscape and focus on basic land ramp.

    Non-color restricted land ramp can help the non-green decks not get removed from the game via a vandalblast/bane of progress/ruination/back to basics. Some cards like burnished hart can be playable in some tables, but it's hardly effective to allow early game plays. If nothing else was cast before it, then essentially your playing a 2/2 on turn-3, praying that it survives, sac'ing it on turn-4, and then in turn-5 you might have 7 lands. It's a 2-turn 6cmc explosive vegetation.

    I don't think that the color pie should be distorted so that non-green decks get farseek efficiency, but more hard-to-deal-with effects like myriad landscape would be a massive boon to any non-green deck that isn't trying to combo win before turn 5.

    Another often overlooked option is rings of brighthearth and fetch lands. A bit expensive to invest in all fetches, but it works with the budget ones too. The problem with this is again reliant on an artifact that can easily be answered by 4/5 of the colors, finding it to use it, opponents seeing it for anything past a combo part, and not expanding fetchlands up to this point.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    I've absolutely used demonic and vamp tuts to guarantee landfall in earlier stages of a game. This is very common. Turn-3 after keeping a 2 land hand without drawing anything? Best to tutor up a land or way to draw and get lands.

    A non-restricted tutor doesn't do anything in the first few turns if you can't develop the resources to to continue playing, so you can use it to get the resources to try and actually participate in the game.

    Regarding green land-ramp tutors - I strongly feel that land-ramp focused decks tend to dominate most non-competitive tables. It's really kind of sad of just how little hate and negative attention this gets. The sheer volume of landramp tutors that cheat extra permenants in to play is insane compared to what other tutors do. Lands tending to be the hardest to deal with card in the game, and if you happen to run MLD you may be classified as a terrible person.

    Mass land-ramp decks tend to plaque casual tables and green/blue/x casual ramp decks are, imo, the worst. I have a typical ramp bant deck and it feels like every win was never deserved. I honestly feel that they are the catalyst for most issues in the format. To answer a deck that can consistently put 8 lands into play around turn 5 to 6, you have to make a quicker deck full of fast mana (which people complain about), and a fast combo win (which people complain about), and the tutors to get these parts (which people complain about).
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Beating a dead horse: Tutors in commander
    If you ban one type of tutor like demonic tutor then you warp what the color choices people use in edh away from black. Technically rampant growth is a tutor, that also puts a permenant strait in to play. Is that ban worthy? It doesn't seem far to ban demonic tutor variants without also hitting all of the green land-ramp and creature spells, the white equipment and enchantment tutors, the blue spell tutors, and the joke of red tutors in gamble and sarkhan's triumph.

    My issue with people bringing up this topic is usually similar to my issue with people wanting to ban fast mana. If you take away all the fast mana-rocks then competitive decks are going to be all semi-green to use all the 1cmc mana dorks and land-ramp. It would be terrible for the entire format from casual to competitive.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on RB storm commander?
    Here you go. That's my original idea detailing the history and a change log, but I haven't been on this site enough to keep it updated. This is my most recent public decklist, and I still maintain a second variant of this style of storm that runs different win conditions via empty the warrens with a decklist here. On YouTube there are a few older videos of these two decks with more explanation but the lists are a bit dated.

    I have done a few other experimental takes on both the 1v1 and multiplayer design with things like null profusion and paradox engine but found that those routes were not as quick or reliable.

    Do note that I have also not tested many new cards. Anje represents the first actually helpful storm commander. Cards like bolas's citadel have only resolved a handful of times in my playgroup, but it's insane with necropotence and fishbowl. I honestly hate wins from fishbowl as it feels like it diminishes the puzzle feel of the deck but due to the raw power of it from citadel and necro I've put it back in.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Land Destruction Finishers
    Any commander with evasion or self-protection can end the game. If you have specific types of land-wipes (like devastation) you can typically float excess mana and stick your commander for easy wins. This will depend on what sort of stuff your opponents play, as they can also float a white mana to path/swords your commander, or unless you play specifically obliterate, they will just counter your spell after you've floated a bunch of mana.

    Uril, the Miststalker or Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner are ideal for their protection and give you the best colors for land-destruction and land recursion+ramp.

    If you can make a bunch of mana (or run rituals like mana geyser), then decree of annihilation with floating mana followed by commander is almost always an insta-win, since the decree exiles and removes answers from hand and graveyard recursion routes. I've used this with generic mono-red junk like rorix bladewing as a commander & win-con before and it works well, currently doing this with Drakuseth, Maw of Flames. Random cards like geosurge end up being randomly good here.

    Past that I would actually recommend running a planeswalker as a win-con instead of a creature. They tend to be harder to answer and can often times protect themselves. If you are a dedicated land-destruction deck then you likely run the land-wipes that destroy more than just lands (like devastation), so win-cons like planeswalkers are ideal.

    In the end although, I would although suggest adding this sort of tactic as a secondary or back-up plan to a decks main win-con. Unless your deck is dedicated to this tactic, this archetype of deck fails to counterspells and often times isn't capable of rebuilding fast enough compared to a generic etb-value deck so you just end up king-making. I love MLD but it is pretty rough to make it a serious and consistent strategy.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Help me build Belzenlok (tuned but not cedh)
    Your list looks fun, but I'm curious why you're choosing Belzenlok? If you're playing him for the fun/uniqueness that's cool, but if your goal is a card-draw demon then I would suggest kothophed, soul hoarder. That guy gives even strip mine more upside. I've had very good luck running him in various pestilence style builds.

    If we're set on Belzenlok then perhaps boots and blackblade reforged to set up a 1 to 2 hit kill. His trample is very relevant. If you're meta is weak on spot removal then hatred is always fun.

    Draw5 from promise of power is strong so why not also moonlight bargain - it's great when you have some reanimator cards already, and is instant.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Yarok, the Desecrated and hideaway land question.
    Regarding Yarok, the Desecrated and something like mosswort bridge, I can see that the hideaway land will end up with two cards under it, but what happens when you activate it?

    Do we choose just one of the two cards to cast, are both avaliable to be cast on the same activation, or does nothing work since the land specifies "the" as in singular card hidden away?
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on What you want to see in Commander themes
    Eddects from the command zone probably need to stop. Even if there isn't anything too broken yet, having effects from a non-interactive zone seems odd and unbalanced.

    What would be nice to see are plane themed decks. The color choice may be an issue, but a dragon spirit or myojin tribal kanagawa theme, artifact synergy kaladesh theme, graveyard inistrad theme, planeswalker ravnica theme, phyrexian & thran domonaria theme, upper class goblin mercadian theme, etc. Each deck has the unique cards in it designed in a way to tell the planes story and history.

    Next to that I would love for development to flesh out mono color cards more, using the commander specific cards to really push what each color is supposed to represent. I'm talking about enchantments and spells and whatnot with full chroma in their mana cost. This is likely the best way to help some of the issues specific mono colored decks run in to.

    With that in mind I do like the idea of the multi-commander option to not represent different deck archetypes. It tends to make precons 3x bad decks in one, pulling synergy apart and weakening the out-of-box precon experiance. Making all 3 commanders fit the same strategy would be ideal, especially if all three had a slightly different use in the deck. That would probably increase box sales instead of people buying just the commander from a precon as a single.

    Recent years this has been getting better... sometimes. It's difficult to not make artifact synergy commanders work together, but then there was that jund deck Wink
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Menery's name goes back in the formats history but he didn't "bring us the game." His original work for the game was pro tour league stuff.

    I've been trying to keep my comments specifically about the banlist, not the integrity of the people who influence it. Believe me, I have a strong opinion on menery. I've played with him on two different occasions at larger events and would have absolutely had more fun at any neighboring table.


    @bobthefunny the exact wording I said is "when the pilot is slow at math." I'm not sure how you took that and simplified it to "people are bad at math."

    From my experiance, from multiple playgroups and public events ranging large to small, with power level ranging from 2 to 10, the most common complaint about engine is when the pilot is slow at figuring out how to deploy spells. This is easily fixed with either help or practice. Banning a card that may be too complex for people to enjoy honestly just dumbs down the format in a way it doesn't need to be.

    I'm pretty much done with this topic. My main group has already adjusted the banlist to our own level. If relevant information as to why someone decided to unban painter surfaces then I'll revisit. Until then there isn't anything to gain here.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Drakuseth, MLD fun!
    Another take & re-work on a MLD (mass land destruction) mono-red brew. The main idea is to float a bunch of mana, wipe out all the lands, then land a game-ending threat (commander or walker). This is best done with other colors, for example Mogis, God of Slaughter can come out early and is resilient to most removal effects, and can be a long-term win-con. Limiting to mono-red is just for my enjoyment.

    The deck is a little old but has been benched for a few months. Originally it was my old Rorix Bladewing deck retuned to be MLD, since the deck ran rituals & fast mana to rush out a 4-turn clock in the air. More recently I've been running this with Lu Bu, Master-at-Arms for horse-related laughs. But now the new Drakuseth, Maw of Flames is being tested. A common(ish) issue for this strategy is having the commander (or win-con) answered after blowing up the lands, and Drakuseth is a pseudo-answer to creature ramp and also the annoying Baleful Strix that may ruin our plan. She gives the same clock speed as rorix (7-power 3 hit instead of 6-haste 4-hit), and that artwork is sweeeeeeeeeet.

    Next to the dragon we have a pile of walkers that will hopefully get us further than an opponent while possibly developing into their own win-condition post MLD effect. Again this is where other colors make this strategy much better, where something as simple as Liliana of the Dark Realms can take over a game if everyones' lands+creatures are wiped. They do although tend to be the inevitable win-con as I can often times cast them before a big land-wipe spell.




    Converted Manacost;

    0 cmc = 1
    1 cmc = 10 (1 X spell)
    2 cmc = 11 (1 X spell)
    3 cmc = 9
    4 cmc = 10
    5 cmc = 6
    6 cmc = 4
    7 cmc = 5
    8 cmc = 2
    9 cmc = 1
    10 cmc = 1

    You can playtest the deck here.

    Things I've been working on / playing with / testing in this deck;

    There is no ramp! Since the deck does want to destroy all permanents, relying on artifact ramp is one option, but this build we are running without. There is also the random chance of null rod showing up in a sol ring opening hand, which is always funny. Since we are limited in the speed of which we can resolve wipe+win-con, we have a pile of semi-hateful cheap cards that we want to sparingly play out early to annoy & slow the opponents while we make land-fall up to our combo, all while trying to kill off as many creatures as possible.

    This deck fails in many ways. The main way it fails is when we see too many overly-focused hate cards that are irrelevant to the game (Pyroblast against non-blue opponents for example)). This although is what happens when we decide to stick to mono-red and not play fast-mana, card draw, or tutors. The second way it fails is when an opponent finds an answer to our win-con and recovers faster than we can manage. This nearly king-makes the winner of the game, and is where people tend to complain about the strategy. The third most common way this deck fails is when it runs in to too many redundant hate cards (like too many artifact destruction spells when there isn't anything to blow up), or by tax effects that are irrelevant at the time. This could be fixed if I squeeze in a faithless looting package.

    There are some questionable cards I'm still running. Meekstone tends to be answered long before I'm ready to push out my commander, but if I don't have a walker available post-wipe then I may lock myself. Much like winter orb it is a card that tends to sit in-hand until the most opportune moment.

    The best cards to see in the deck are mana geyser (typically accelerates our game-plan to turn-5), and decree of annihilation (exile all hands + 'yards is very relevant).

    Cards I'm considering adding/testing are Flashfires, god-pharaoh's statue, Phyrexian Revoker, Omen Machine, Rampaging Ferocidon, and Trinisphere. Since I last ran Lu Bu, Master-at-Arms here, wildfire and destructive force were not in the deck, but they may return.




    Disclaimer for those who dislike MLD - Please make sure you're not confusing MLD as a strategy vs MLD from someone who just likes to troll games. There is a difference from someone trying to destroy your resources while putting out a win-con vs someone that wants to drag a game on for a few hours and plays Shahrazad style crap. The goal of this deck is to win, and it can do so by removing your resources.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on 7/8 Banlist
    Well you said it yourself - your point doesn't actually address anything I said. Keep on carrying on Wink
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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