How good this card is depends on what other Soulbond creatures there are and what their effects do. Two Soulbond creatures paired with each other = double effect.
^ This.
This card alone needs to stop being compared to Mirran Crusader. They do not play the same role. Crusader is a 3 drop double strike with built in evasiveness, This is a 3 drop combo piece that is followed by an ideally devastating play. More cards with this ability will be ideal.
The key to defeating a well built Wu Humans deck is to eliminate the threats they pack before they overwhelm you.
Every Wu Humans deck does the same thing-
Establish board presence using creatures with built in survivability(Crusader, Geist, unblockable hexproof guy)
Increase the strength of said creatures(Hotp, Angelic Destiny, Sword)
Remove anything that stops attacks from getting through (O-ring, Fiend Hunter, etc)
You need to stop them at one of these three points or you lose.
You can pack a bunch of Revoke Existence to kill any Angelic Destiny, Honor of the Pure, or Sword.
What I side in/out in this match-up
+2 Day of Judgment
+3 Revoke Existence
-2 Go for the Throat
-1 Doomed Traveler
-1 Midnight Haunting
-1 Gather the Townsfolk
On a side note, I also MB 4 copies of Despise because I find it to be one of the best cards in this current meta. It alone can stop a Wu Humans deck in it's tracks. Between despise, revoke, and DoJ, they have a really hard time maintaining any board presence. Thats when you drop a lingering souls and an anthem and watch them squirm.
Thank you for a great tournament report Hellsing! Actually enjoyed reading it. Celestial Purge is sky rocketing in its value within our SB atm, I am currently in the process of writing a Wb token SB primer so hopefully that will be of some use for you soon. =)
Evolving Wilds can be too slow sometimes when you need that land to play your spell.
I play Shimmering Grotto. To say whoever plays that is a bad player is a bad thing to say in general
Second, maybe Skirsdag worked for him. We pump out a lot of guys.
Third, what would you do to beat out a Sorin. You said to get rid of it, but that his opponent was stupid to throw out creatures to try and kill it. Maybe he knew if the ultimate went off he would lose anyway so might as well try to kill it.
Think before you speak please....this coming from the guy that runs Altar's Reap
I would have not cast additonal blade splicers if I already had huntmaster out. I owuld have just passed the turn, flipped him, pinged the sorin, and then continued to fill my board. Simple as that.
In all honesty, I assumed the story was made up from the beginning anyways. Please, lets all just drop this argument.
On another note, Altar's Reap can be a very good card in this deck as a 1-3 of. Opponents wipe our board pretty consistently, and our Doomed Traveler can potentially profit from the sacrifice.
that is a little condecending. I've ultimated Sorin Only once before. I was playing against Mono Green Aggro and I chumped everything he swung at me.
I image I could do the same against mono black or even white.
Red is the only color that can easily blast planeswalkers. And we're playing tokens so we have no shortage of blockers. If we do then we've got worse problems than defending sorin.
Though it is pretty lucky to be in a situation where you can activate sorin's ultimate.
Red- Several instant burns to nuke the PW.
White- Oblivion Ring
Green- Beast within
Blue- Counters.
Black is really the only deck that should have any real problem dealing with PW's.
That's not even the point. His opponent was playing some sort of GW aggro variant (Beast Within AND Oblivion ring) and was inexperienced enough to not be prepared for responding to a PW, and then continued casting high value targets knowing that he didnt have an answer to the sorin. He also stated that Sorin turned the tides for him which leads us to assume his board presence was inferior to his opponent, yet his opponent did not tag the PW to stop the ultimate from going off despite having at least three creatures on the board.
There is no intended condescension, only a statement of my observations with the information that was provided. This forum is strictly for competitive discussion, it was in the agreement we all (presumably) read when requesting to join this community.
Mods- This isnt spam, but part of a discussion of how other decks can respond to our PWs.
I have read Everywhere that Sorin isn't that good since when it get out, you where usually going to win. Just wanted to point out that I won my Last match, It was 1-1 with a Sorin ultimate getting me 2 blade splicer and 1 huntmaster of the fell, It was a pretty epic return of situation getting 3 token, 2 golem 3/3 and 1 wolf 2/2.
Best thing I can say is never rush to do your thing. If your opponents play white,red or black, don't rush that lingering souls flashback, or keep that midnight haunting in your hand, once they wipe the field it is fun to swarm back!
If you have any question regarding card choice it would be my pleasure to answer them.
You seem to be playing in a much less competitive environment than most people.
Any planeswalker ultimate should be game breaking.
The fact that someone sat for three turns and watched sorin get to that point and provided valuable targets for the ultimate while doing so says a lot about what type of opponent you were up against.
this is a rough draft of how I would run Wbg tokens. Parallel lives > Garruk. Hands down. Even on a top deck, cast it and flash back a LS for four tokens? Insane. Doomed Traveler becomes ridiculous, as does elspeth. Hero of bladehold becomes an immediate "If you do not kill this right now you die" card. The two FaF are to provide fuel for a second phase parallel drop or Gavony counters. I already think Sorin is too clunky for our aggro based deck, I see Garruk as an inferior version of him.
To me, splashing green is to get Gavony Township (amazing) and Parallel Lives. They both put tokens over the top.
The mana base is still sketchy, an undeniable weakness.
EDIT- Refined the list a bit. The deck only needs to produce a single black mana source simply to fuel the FB on Lingering Souls. Other than that it is a Wg token deck. I'm really starting to like this list.
EDIT2- Need a math junkie to establish the most efficient mana base for that list for me!!
EDIT3- The sincere moment of remorse I just felt when I realized that Fresh Meat read "for each creature PUT INTO YOUR GRAVEYARD."
EDIT4- Already know what changes will be made if I decide I do not like Parallel Lives.
-2 Parallel Lives
-2 Elspeth
+2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Black removal instants.
2 of those creatures are played in Pod, i can not beat pod, unless i get one of those perfect hands, but once I see pod, gg i lose.
How do I beat pod?
[CARD]
Stony Silence[/CARD] alone shuts that deck down.
There are a lot of arguments against the value of Stony Silence, but I have found 2 in SB to be invaluable. It shuts down swords, mortarpod (has been a major hindrance in the increasingly popular Bu Zombies), Ratchet Bomb, Sphere of Suns, etc.
Corrosive Gale has been a small issue for me lately against Gx Aggro, but luckily it isn't too difficult to play around.
[CARD]
Timely Reinforcements[/CARD] has pretty good value against Bu Zombies as well. They almost always have board presence, and typically side in some BSZ after the first round.
Mirran Crusader alone stands in front of Zombies and Gx aggro with a "Come at me bro" face.
[CARD]
Revoke Existence[/CARD] for the mirror. Blow up their O-rings and anthems.
Am I the only person that finds Hellrider a subpar card in this deck?
Im in the process of building this list, using Stormblood Berserker in its place. will post results later.
EDIT: Anyone else have some thoughts on the berserker in here? Always worked wonders in RDW.
Blue duals do not give you more stability. An UW dual land that might come into play tapped, when you dont need the blue mana, is just a worse plains. You dont have more white and black sources with duals, you have the same amount, just with the chance of having them come into play tapped.
Adding an extra color has NEVER made a manabase more consistent.
I can see another reason, which is simply to avoid awkward losses due to hands where all your mana comes into play tapped.
Sure, those hands might not happen all that often, but they will happen a lot more often than you drawing moorland haunt.
It synergizes well, sure, but that doesnt somehow make the reasons not to add it disappear. (that is, upping your chances of losing to awkward mana)
This ^
We do not have enough permanents to get consistent use out of the Moorland Haunt in my opinion.
I would LOVE to incorporate moorland haunt into the deck. Unfortunately, it simply makes the mana base too sketchy with a typical Wb list. The only way I see it working is by making the deck WUb, lightly splashing black for lingering souls.
Champion of the Parish needs to go if youre going to run the captain. Tribal lords do not belong in decks where half of your creatures arent in the tribe. Choose one or the other. However, dropping the champion costs you your primary target for the moorland. Another red flag.
Phantasmal Image is a highly appealing card alongside Moorland Haunt because it eliminates those pesky legendaries and responds well to control players late game.
After all the breaking down and adjustments you would have to do to accommodate the blue mana, you basically have a WUB spirit token deck, which was an archetype all in its own not too long ago.
TL;DR- The blue would be really nice, but the only way to make it consistent is to dip heavily into blue, making it a whole other deck.
My God. Shane is free from purgatory! Run for the hills!
I still think your list is pretty much the best B/W token deck you can run at the moment, but I am curious as to why you're running Doom Blade instead of Go for the Throat. With Zombies being a real deck now, being able to hit black creatures seems to be more important than hitting artifact creatures.
No zombies in my meta, whereas inkmoth and sad robot are very common. Simply a meta call. =)
For those of you that were following my threads before I was suspended and this one was created, here is my current deck list and some brief explanations on my choices-
Explanations- Champion of the Parish- Sucks unless played turns 1-3. Forces the deck into an aggro heavy strategy. I just dont like it. Forces you to overcommit only to see a quick tragic slip or vapor snag.
Despise- Still my favorite spell in the deck. It picks out the annoying Mirran Crusader and Geist of Saint Traft in our tough match-ups, reveals opponents plans, and disrupts possible combos. Invaluable, imo.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad- Flavor-wise, I love everything about this card. It is my favorite card in the set. Unfortunately, it is too slow and a win-more card for this deck. At 4cmc, there are too many other superior choices. His half anthem effect is lackluster, despite it being permanent. We have trouble surviving Whipflare and Slagstorm as it is, arguably needing the +1 to toughness more than power.
Blade Splicer- Debatable pick over Midnight Haunting IF you run CotP, if you dont then Midnight Haunting is far superior. Instant speed, and recieves buffs from both my anthems, not having to split them between two targets. Primary argument is the token's ability to stop sword carriers. I pack 3 MB O-rings and have 3 Stony Silence in SB, swords arent a problem for my list.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Doomed Traveler
2 Hero of Bladehold
Spells-
4 Gather the Townsfolk
2 Rally the Peasants
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Lingering Souls
4 Thatcher Revolt
3 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
Lands-
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Mountain
10 Plains
4 Clifftop Retreat
3 Swamp
Pros-
CotP becomes a lot better late game with the addition of revolt.
Super heavy attrition aggro.
Cons-
Weak removal (if any)
^ This.
This card alone needs to stop being compared to Mirran Crusader. They do not play the same role. Crusader is a 3 drop double strike with built in evasiveness, This is a 3 drop combo piece that is followed by an ideally devastating play. More cards with this ability will be ideal.
High Value Cards they possess-
Immediate Threats-
Other Threats-
The key to defeating a well built Wu Humans deck is to eliminate the threats they pack before they overwhelm you.
Every Wu Humans deck does the same thing-
Establish board presence using creatures with built in survivability(Crusader, Geist, unblockable hexproof guy)
Increase the strength of said creatures(Hotp, Angelic Destiny, Sword)
Remove anything that stops attacks from getting through (O-ring, Fiend Hunter, etc)
You need to stop them at one of these three points or you lose.
You can pack a bunch of Revoke Existence to kill any Angelic Destiny, Honor of the Pure, or Sword.
What I side in/out in this match-up
+2 Day of Judgment
+3 Revoke Existence
-2 Go for the Throat
-1 Doomed Traveler
-1 Midnight Haunting
-1 Gather the Townsfolk
On a side note, I also MB 4 copies of Despise because I find it to be one of the best cards in this current meta. It alone can stop a Wu Humans deck in it's tracks. Between despise, revoke, and DoJ, they have a really hard time maintaining any board presence. Thats when you drop a lingering souls and an anthem and watch them squirm.
I would have not cast additonal blade splicers if I already had huntmaster out. I owuld have just passed the turn, flipped him, pinged the sorin, and then continued to fill my board. Simple as that.
In all honesty, I assumed the story was made up from the beginning anyways. Please, lets all just drop this argument.
On another note, Altar's Reap can be a very good card in this deck as a 1-3 of. Opponents wipe our board pretty consistently, and our Doomed Traveler can potentially profit from the sacrifice.
Red- Several instant burns to nuke the PW.
White- Oblivion Ring
Green- Beast within
Blue- Counters.
Black is really the only deck that should have any real problem dealing with PW's.
That's not even the point. His opponent was playing some sort of GW aggro variant (Beast Within AND Oblivion ring) and was inexperienced enough to not be prepared for responding to a PW, and then continued casting high value targets knowing that he didnt have an answer to the sorin. He also stated that Sorin turned the tides for him which leads us to assume his board presence was inferior to his opponent, yet his opponent did not tag the PW to stop the ultimate from going off despite having at least three creatures on the board.
Also, he runs Skirsdag High Priest.
There is no intended condescension, only a statement of my observations with the information that was provided. This forum is strictly for competitive discussion, it was in the agreement we all (presumably) read when requesting to join this community.
Mods- This isnt spam, but part of a discussion of how other decks can respond to our PWs.
You seem to be playing in a much less competitive environment than most people.
Any planeswalker ultimate should be game breaking.
The fact that someone sat for three turns and watched sorin get to that point and provided valuable targets for the ultimate while doing so says a lot about what type of opponent you were up against.
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Hero of Bladehold
Enchantments
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Parallel Lives
2 Sword of Feast and Famine
Planeswalkers
2 Elspeth Tirel
Spells
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
Land
1 Shimmering Grotto
3 Gavony Township
4 Isolated Chapel
8 Plains
2 Razorverge Thicket
4 Sunpetal Grove
2 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
this is a rough draft of how I would run Wbg tokens. Parallel lives > Garruk. Hands down. Even on a top deck, cast it and flash back a LS for four tokens? Insane. Doomed Traveler becomes ridiculous, as does elspeth. Hero of bladehold becomes an immediate "If you do not kill this right now you die" card. The two FaF are to provide fuel for a second phase parallel drop or Gavony counters. I already think Sorin is too clunky for our aggro based deck, I see Garruk as an inferior version of him.
To me, splashing green is to get Gavony Township (amazing) and Parallel Lives. They both put tokens over the top.
The mana base is still sketchy, an undeniable weakness.
EDIT- Refined the list a bit. The deck only needs to produce a single black mana source simply to fuel the FB on Lingering Souls. Other than that it is a Wg token deck. I'm really starting to like this list.
EDIT2- Need a math junkie to establish the most efficient mana base for that list for me!!
EDIT3- The sincere moment of remorse I just felt when I realized that Fresh Meat read "for each creature PUT INTO YOUR GRAVEYARD."
EDIT4- Already know what changes will be made if I decide I do not like Parallel Lives.
-2 Parallel Lives
-2 Elspeth
+2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Black removal instants.
3 Hero of Bladehold
4 Doomed Traveler
Token Spells:
4 Lingering Souls
4 Midnight Haunting
4 Gather the Townsfolk
Removal:
4 Despise
2 Go for the Throat
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Honor of the Pure
Land:
11 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
2 Day of Judgment
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Revoke Existence
2 Stony Silence
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Celestial Purge
Feel free to ask any questions on my results in particular match-ups or individual choices in general.
[CARD]
Stony Silence[/CARD] alone shuts that deck down.
There are a lot of arguments against the value of Stony Silence, but I have found 2 in SB to be invaluable. It shuts down swords, mortarpod (has been a major hindrance in the increasingly popular Bu Zombies), Ratchet Bomb, Sphere of Suns, etc.
It's underrated. Heavily.
Celestial Purge is for Massacre Wurm, Hero of Oxid Ridge, Inferno Titan, and Curse of Death's Hold.
Corrosive Gale has been a small issue for me lately against Gx Aggro, but luckily it isn't too difficult to play around.
[CARD]
Timely Reinforcements[/CARD] has pretty good value against Bu Zombies as well. They almost always have board presence, and typically side in some BSZ after the first round.
Mirran Crusader alone stands in front of Zombies and Gx aggro with a "Come at me bro" face.
[CARD]
Revoke Existence[/CARD] for the mirror. Blow up their O-rings and anthems.
Im in the process of building this list, using Stormblood Berserker in its place. will post results later.
EDIT: Anyone else have some thoughts on the berserker in here? Always worked wonders in RDW.
This ^
We do not have enough permanents to get consistent use out of the Moorland Haunt in my opinion.
I would LOVE to incorporate moorland haunt into the deck. Unfortunately, it simply makes the mana base too sketchy with a typical Wb list. The only way I see it working is by making the deck WUb, lightly splashing black for lingering souls.
Champion of the Parish needs to go if youre going to run the captain. Tribal lords do not belong in decks where half of your creatures arent in the tribe. Choose one or the other. However, dropping the champion costs you your primary target for the moorland. Another red flag.
Phantasmal Image is a highly appealing card alongside Moorland Haunt because it eliminates those pesky legendaries and responds well to control players late game.
After all the breaking down and adjustments you would have to do to accommodate the blue mana, you basically have a WUB spirit token deck, which was an archetype all in its own not too long ago.
TL;DR- The blue would be really nice, but the only way to make it consistent is to dip heavily into blue, making it a whole other deck.
Something like this-
2x Sword of War and Peace
Creatures
2x Hero of Bladehold
4x Doomed Traveler
3x Drogskol Captain
2x Phantasmal Image
Enchantments
4x Honor of the Pure
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Darkslick Shores
3x Seachrome Coast
4x Glacial Fortress
7x Plains
4x Isolated Chapel
2x Moorland Haunt
2x Vault of the Archangel
4x Midnight Haunting
4x Gather the Townsfolk
4x Lingering Souls
After all that, I see it as a less effective version of Wb tokens. =T
No zombies in my meta, whereas inkmoth and sad robot are very common. Simply a meta call. =)
4 Doomed Traveler
3 Hero of Bladehold
Instant:
2 Doom Blade
4 Midnight Haunting
Enchantment:
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Honor of the Pure
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Despise
4 Gather the Townsfolk
4 Lingering Souls
Land:
11 Plains
6 Swamp
4 Isolated Chapel
3 Vault of the Archangel
2 Day of Judgment
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Revoke Existence
3 Timely Reinforcements
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Stony Silence
Explanations-
Champion of the Parish- Sucks unless played turns 1-3. Forces the deck into an aggro heavy strategy. I just dont like it. Forces you to overcommit only to see a quick tragic slip or vapor snag.
Despise- Still my favorite spell in the deck. It picks out the annoying Mirran Crusader and Geist of Saint Traft in our tough match-ups, reveals opponents plans, and disrupts possible combos. Invaluable, imo.
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad- Flavor-wise, I love everything about this card. It is my favorite card in the set. Unfortunately, it is too slow and a win-more card for this deck. At 4cmc, there are too many other superior choices. His half anthem effect is lackluster, despite it being permanent. We have trouble surviving Whipflare and Slagstorm as it is, arguably needing the +1 to toughness more than power.
Blade Splicer- Debatable pick over Midnight Haunting IF you run CotP, if you dont then Midnight Haunting is far superior. Instant speed, and recieves buffs from both my anthems, not having to split them between two targets. Primary argument is the token's ability to stop sword carriers. I pack 3 MB O-rings and have 3 Stony Silence in SB, swords arent a problem for my list.