So I've been lurking a little bit in these forums, and I haven't really seen a whole lot of talk about the Death and Taxes matchup. I find it to be horrible. Is there a particular way I need to line up my removal? Should I play aggressively? I just need to be pointed in the right direction and would greatly appreciate any help.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but we're favored against Death and Taxes. Specifically because we have Punishing Fire and it kills almost all of their creatures (Serra Avenger requires two or Abrupt Decay). Mother of Runes is annoying, but the recurring nature of Punishing Fire means she will die eventually (i.e. use it on their turn, then recur it on your turn). It'll be a really grindy game (i.e. don't get too aggressive), but the inevitability is on our side. Just keep their side of the board clear and you will eventually win. They will side in Rest in Peace game 2 so save an Abrupt Decay for it so as to preserve your Punishing Fire engine.
As for helping the match-up there's nothing to change in the mainboard if you have 3 or 4 Punishing Fires and Abrupt Decays, but in the sideboard I bring in my 2 Golgari Charms and 2 Toxic Deluge. Both of them completely destroy DnT (and Elves for that matter). It's very difficult for them to recover from even one Charm/Deluge if you 2, 3, or even 4 for 1 them. If they're smart or experienced, they won't commit more than two creatures. I also side in some artifact hate (for their equipment) and Pithing Needle for Aether Vial.
Lastly, you could lose game 2/3 to a good Cataclysm, but that for the most part is pretty difficult to play around. I think we're still favored 60/40 though.
Again, the key is keeping their board clear while incrementally building yours. Hope that helps.
How did it turn out in Prague for those of you who piloted Jund?
I went to Prag myself and finished 9:3:3 making my first Pro Point:-D
Congrats. I'm not surprised by your record since as you said, you only faced combo once and faced a lot of fair blue decks. It's unfortunate you drew against Miracles twice since we're favored, but I can understand how those games can go a long time and lead to a draw. A little surprised you beat Eldrazi. I figured that was an unfavored match-up even with 4 Wasteland.
I streamlined my list playing the full playset of Groves and Fire and cutting down on the bolts. I have never missed them - not even against all the delver/deathrite decks. Decay and Punishing Fire are usually enough to handle the relevant threats and these cards are much more versatile (in case of Decay)/grindy (in case of Punishing Fire). Pulse is good against Planeswalkers, Eldrazi, Token Strategies, Angler and Tombstalkers, Batterskulls and Random Stuff. Kolaghan's Command is also a very flexible choice that generates massive card advantage.
I actually do the same and agree with your reasoning. I cut the Bolts over three years ago and haven't missed them since. I think 8 removal (4 Punishing Fire and 4 Abrupt Decay) is plenty and as you said, more versatile. I know it means we have less reach (bolts to the face), but I'm willing to sacrifice that for more utility. I too like having Maelstrom Pulse as a "catch all" since it destroys most things Decay and Fire can't.
Speaking of which, it looks like my main deck and yours are only different in that you chose a Kolaghan's Command and I chose a 2nd Sylvan Library. How do you like it? I recently traded for one to try it out, but I also think Sylvan Library is just so good. I mean Ancestral Recall is pretty good right? The fact most Blue decks counter it immediately told me it's obviously a great card so I added a 2nd copy.
Regarding the SB I jotted down some remarks. The most impressive cards werde Life from the Loam and Slaughter Games. The latter one caught my Miracles opponents two times off guard.
Yeah I run 3 Slaughter Games to shore up my Combo match-up, but it's also good against almost any deck that has very few win conditions. The uncounterable part is very relevant.
Hi guys, been keeping an eye on this thread a little but wanted to hear anyone's opinion on the Eldrazi match up.
I'm certainly not the most experienced Legacy player, but on the surface it strikes me as a really tough match up.
Have people found this to be the case? And also, what cards are players side-boarding in preparation for the match up? I've been considering Blood Moon, it can mess us up a tad but has to be worth it for the effect it has on Eldrazi (and Lands)?
Has anyone made any subtle changes to the main deck also? Trimming a bolt or two for example?
You're correct in that it is a bad match-up for us. They are too fast for us and most of their creatures outclass ours in terms of power/toughness and the creatures that matter do not die to Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, or Lightning Bolt. We can get lucky if a Goyf sticks at 4/5 since it blocks most stuff, but that's not a great out to rely on (4 cards out of 60).
I haven't changed anything in my MB/SB since there is only one Eldrazi player in my local meta, but I think Blood Moon is a bit extreme. We run quite a few non-basics ourselves so we'd be hindering ourselves as well. To be honest, since I haven't changed my deck, I haven't really given it a lot of thought and will have to ponder it for awhile. You want to have cards that are not *only* for Eldrazi basically since that at least gives you some utility in other match-ups. That is unless your meta is a lot of Eldrazi.
Wanted the Goblin Warchief promo so I played in another Legacy FNM tonight and went 4-0 again. I'm on a roll with this deck (won FNM three times in a row and went undefeated each time). Beat OmniTell (2-1), Miracles (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Burn (2-1).
could you post your decklist please?
My list is in my signature. Only difference was -2 REB -1 Golgari Charm +3 Leyline. This is likely just when there is a lot of Burn in the room.
Wanted the Goblin Warchief promo so I played in another Legacy FNM tonight and went 4-0 again. I'm on a roll with this deck (won FNM three times in a row and went undefeated each time). Beat OmniTell (2-1), Miracles (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Burn (2-1).
I changed my sideboard a bit since there were three Burn players. I played three Leyline of Sanctity (weird I know) and it actually won my OmniTell and Burn games. The card is actually not dead against a bunch of decks we're bad against. Storm, OmniTell, Burn, etc. For OmniTell, if their win condition is Release the Ants, they can't target you. They will have to waste a Cunning Wish on Wipe Away and that buys you a lot of time. Especially when it gives you a lot of time to cast Slaughter Games naming Omniscience. As for Burn, it's pretty self-explanatory. Against them, I actually aggressively mulligan'ed until I had it (but no lower than five cards). It slows the game down considerably and we can just Punishing Fire their win conditions that are left.
Obviously it is a dead top deck, but if you have it in your starting 7, it's a beast against a lot of decks we struggle with. It likely won't be a permanent fixture in my 75, but if there is a good amount of Burn, it's a pretty decent counter.
thanks for your reply dwchang. well, another way to beat burn is a T1 IoK into T2 hymn and Goyf race them. but both scenarios requires a perfect opening hand... (and fetching basics and keeping Wasteland untapped and stuff). Vortex is a bad card, but we can Decay it. i was thinkig about Kitchen Finks and Feed the Clan (Goyf can easily grow with some dead Eidolons or Vortexes), but these cards ain't that strong in Legacy as they're in Modern... they don't see any legacy play, right?
Kitchen Finks is almost Legacy playable, but maybe as a SB for Jund it's reasonable. It's 4 life, which is a lot of the times just enough to get us over the "they are in top deck mode and we are at 2." I actually hadn't considered Feed the Clan, which is not Legacy playable, but 10 life is not trivial against Burn. I mean against Burn it seems good, BUT it'd only be useful in that match-up so is it really worth eating up slots in our SB for one deck? Also if it whiffs with no Goyf in play 2 mana for 5 life is mana inefficient.
hey guys, what's your plan against Burn? there's always a space for one Jitte, but will it be enough?
No it isn't enough.
For Jitte, you have to put it into play, equip it and attack. That's a lot of mana and turn investment and it's likely by the time it is online, we are dead. Unfortunately, my only answer is Scavenging Ooze and Golgari Charm for their Sulfuric Vortex. I don't think I've seen a Burn SB for Jund that I've liked. I even asked for one earlier, but we just don't have many great options. Only games I've won against a good Burn player is when I have a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and kill their early dudes with Punishing Fire and then eat them. Not a really reliable solution.
I guess I spoke too soon. Played Legacy FNM and got first going 4-0. Dodged Burn and beating Junk (2-0), MUD/Lands hybrid (2-1), Infect (2-1), and Elves (2-0). The MUD games were brutal. 12+ taxing effects (Trinisphere, Lodestone Golems, etc.) and the kicker was Smokestack. Really difficult games, but I got there after rethinking my strategy and mulligans.
I hadn't played Jund in a few months (was playing Lands and Nic Fit), but it looks like it can still give me solid results even if I was a little rusty (punted a game against Infect that I shouldn't have, but the set went my way).
Strange question, but what are our sideboard options against Burn? I've played Jund for close to five years now, but I've never had to put specific cards for Burn so I've never really thought about it. However, my local store now has 4 or 5 Burn players (out of 15 or 20 players) so it's a pretty likely I will face at least one of them and I don't think Burn is a great match-up for us. I'd like to have some options in the SB, but can't really think of anything that isn't pretty janky or too specific.
I just can't stand the artwork on Chains of Mephistopheles so I am absolutely not going to have it in my side-board. What would those of you who do include it put in it's place if you had to replace it?
Although I think art is a poor reason to not include a card in your deck, there are plenty of options. I actually have never run Chains (since I do not own them) and haven't had many issues. It feels like a "win more" card to me since most decks we'd side it in against we're already favored (although admittedly it would help considerably against Storm-based combo). With that said, I think you should have:
Almost required?
2 - 3 -1/-1 effects for Elves, DnT, and True-Name Nemesis
2 - 3 pieces of GY hate
Nice, but not required:
Choke
Pithing Needle
Red Elemental Blast
Artifact/Enchant hate
Life from the Loam
I really think the first two things are required in our SB, but the remaining 9 - 11 slots you have a lot of good options. I'd pick based on what your meta is and what bad match-ups you have in your meta.
I'm wondering about our Matchup against lands. In my are a there are two lands players and one will destroy me but the other one just loses to me. Do we just hope to remove their Loams? How do we fight such a resilient strategy?
Pretty sure we're unfavored against Lands. I'm playing Lands right now and the things I fear are 1) Fast Combo or 2) Extremely fast aggro like Burn (which has Price of Progress). Anything in between (especially mid range) I don't fear.
The reason is our clock is too slow and a few Wastelands and a DRS is not going to do it. If your game plan is to get rid of my Loams (and I know you're playing DRS) I just save a cycle land to get my Loam back. Jund doesn't have a fast clock so I don't have to play that aggressively. Especially when a single Maze of Ith or Punishing Fire pretty much slows us down significantly. There's also the instant win with Dark Depths/Stage, which we don't really have an answer for.
I think Jund is genuinely underplayed relative to its strength. People shy away from it because it doesn't have Brainstorm and Force of Will, but its one of the most consistent and powerful non-Brainstorm decks out there. Almost every time I'm deciding on what to play at a big tournament I roll with Jund simply because it matches up well against a lot of popular decks.
I could see this changing depending on how popular Eldrazi gets and to what degree the meta warps around it. While discard + Tarmogoyf has been a great recipe for stomping stompy decks, I'm a bit concerned about the inadequacy of Decay and Fire against them. I haven't played this matchup, so I can't say for certain yet.
The reason people don't play Jund more is because they dislike losing to Combo so frequently (especially game 1). Yes, people like Brainstorm, but they also like having Force of Will and having a chance against combo decks games 1.
I'm gonna play it again next weekend at another event (In spite of my friends telling me to just play Shardless and get on the blue success train like everyone else. )
I find it ironic your friend says to play Shardless BUG when in fact, we wreck Shardless BUG. At the same time, it's quite good against a lot of decks, but Miracles and Shardless BUG are my two easiest match-ups with Jund.
I don't mean to sound condescending, but we're favored against Death and Taxes. Specifically because we have Punishing Fire and it kills almost all of their creatures (Serra Avenger requires two or Abrupt Decay). Mother of Runes is annoying, but the recurring nature of Punishing Fire means she will die eventually (i.e. use it on their turn, then recur it on your turn). It'll be a really grindy game (i.e. don't get too aggressive), but the inevitability is on our side. Just keep their side of the board clear and you will eventually win. They will side in Rest in Peace game 2 so save an Abrupt Decay for it so as to preserve your Punishing Fire engine.
As for helping the match-up there's nothing to change in the mainboard if you have 3 or 4 Punishing Fires and Abrupt Decays, but in the sideboard I bring in my 2 Golgari Charms and 2 Toxic Deluge. Both of them completely destroy DnT (and Elves for that matter). It's very difficult for them to recover from even one Charm/Deluge if you 2, 3, or even 4 for 1 them. If they're smart or experienced, they won't commit more than two creatures. I also side in some artifact hate (for their equipment) and Pithing Needle for Aether Vial.
Lastly, you could lose game 2/3 to a good Cataclysm, but that for the most part is pretty difficult to play around. I think we're still favored 60/40 though.
Again, the key is keeping their board clear while incrementally building yours. Hope that helps.
Congrats. I'm not surprised by your record since as you said, you only faced combo once and faced a lot of fair blue decks. It's unfortunate you drew against Miracles twice since we're favored, but I can understand how those games can go a long time and lead to a draw. A little surprised you beat Eldrazi. I figured that was an unfavored match-up even with 4 Wasteland.
I actually do the same and agree with your reasoning. I cut the Bolts over three years ago and haven't missed them since. I think 8 removal (4 Punishing Fire and 4 Abrupt Decay) is plenty and as you said, more versatile. I know it means we have less reach (bolts to the face), but I'm willing to sacrifice that for more utility. I too like having Maelstrom Pulse as a "catch all" since it destroys most things Decay and Fire can't.
Speaking of which, it looks like my main deck and yours are only different in that you chose a Kolaghan's Command and I chose a 2nd Sylvan Library. How do you like it? I recently traded for one to try it out, but I also think Sylvan Library is just so good. I mean Ancestral Recall is pretty good right? The fact most Blue decks counter it immediately told me it's obviously a great card so I added a 2nd copy.
Yeah I run 3 Slaughter Games to shore up my Combo match-up, but it's also good against almost any deck that has very few win conditions. The uncounterable part is very relevant.
Anyway glad to see a Jund deck do well.
You're correct in that it is a bad match-up for us. They are too fast for us and most of their creatures outclass ours in terms of power/toughness and the creatures that matter do not die to Abrupt Decay, Punishing Fire, or Lightning Bolt. We can get lucky if a Goyf sticks at 4/5 since it blocks most stuff, but that's not a great out to rely on (4 cards out of 60).
I haven't changed anything in my MB/SB since there is only one Eldrazi player in my local meta, but I think Blood Moon is a bit extreme. We run quite a few non-basics ourselves so we'd be hindering ourselves as well. To be honest, since I haven't changed my deck, I haven't really given it a lot of thought and will have to ponder it for awhile. You want to have cards that are not *only* for Eldrazi basically since that at least gives you some utility in other match-ups. That is unless your meta is a lot of Eldrazi.
My list is in my signature. Only difference was -2 REB -1 Golgari Charm +3 Leyline. This is likely just when there is a lot of Burn in the room.
I changed my sideboard a bit since there were three Burn players. I played three Leyline of Sanctity (weird I know) and it actually won my OmniTell and Burn games. The card is actually not dead against a bunch of decks we're bad against. Storm, OmniTell, Burn, etc. For OmniTell, if their win condition is Release the Ants, they can't target you. They will have to waste a Cunning Wish on Wipe Away and that buys you a lot of time. Especially when it gives you a lot of time to cast Slaughter Games naming Omniscience. As for Burn, it's pretty self-explanatory. Against them, I actually aggressively mulligan'ed until I had it (but no lower than five cards). It slows the game down considerably and we can just Punishing Fire their win conditions that are left.
Obviously it is a dead top deck, but if you have it in your starting 7, it's a beast against a lot of decks we struggle with. It likely won't be a permanent fixture in my 75, but if there is a good amount of Burn, it's a pretty decent counter.
Kitchen Finks is almost Legacy playable, but maybe as a SB for Jund it's reasonable. It's 4 life, which is a lot of the times just enough to get us over the "they are in top deck mode and we are at 2." I actually hadn't considered Feed the Clan, which is not Legacy playable, but 10 life is not trivial against Burn. I mean against Burn it seems good, BUT it'd only be useful in that match-up so is it really worth eating up slots in our SB for one deck? Also if it whiffs with no Goyf in play 2 mana for 5 life is mana inefficient.
No it isn't enough.
For Jitte, you have to put it into play, equip it and attack. That's a lot of mana and turn investment and it's likely by the time it is online, we are dead. Unfortunately, my only answer is Scavenging Ooze and Golgari Charm for their Sulfuric Vortex. I don't think I've seen a Burn SB for Jund that I've liked. I even asked for one earlier, but we just don't have many great options. Only games I've won against a good Burn player is when I have a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman and kill their early dudes with Punishing Fire and then eat them. Not a really reliable solution.
I hadn't played Jund in a few months (was playing Lands and Nic Fit), but it looks like it can still give me solid results even if I was a little rusty (punted a game against Infect that I shouldn't have, but the set went my way).
Although I think art is a poor reason to not include a card in your deck, there are plenty of options. I actually have never run Chains (since I do not own them) and haven't had many issues. It feels like a "win more" card to me since most decks we'd side it in against we're already favored (although admittedly it would help considerably against Storm-based combo). With that said, I think you should have:
Almost required?
2 - 3 -1/-1 effects for Elves, DnT, and True-Name Nemesis
2 - 3 pieces of GY hate
Nice, but not required:
Choke
Pithing Needle
Red Elemental Blast
Artifact/Enchant hate
Life from the Loam
I really think the first two things are required in our SB, but the remaining 9 - 11 slots you have a lot of good options. I'd pick based on what your meta is and what bad match-ups you have in your meta.
Pretty sure we're unfavored against Lands. I'm playing Lands right now and the things I fear are 1) Fast Combo or 2) Extremely fast aggro like Burn (which has Price of Progress). Anything in between (especially mid range) I don't fear.
The reason is our clock is too slow and a few Wastelands and a DRS is not going to do it. If your game plan is to get rid of my Loams (and I know you're playing DRS) I just save a cycle land to get my Loam back. Jund doesn't have a fast clock so I don't have to play that aggressively. Especially when a single Maze of Ith or Punishing Fire pretty much slows us down significantly. There's also the instant win with Dark Depths/Stage, which we don't really have an answer for.
Unfortunately no, the primer is not up-to-date. However, the last few posts and lists in people's signatures (including my own) are pretty accurate.
Pithing Needle, Ancient Grudge, Krosan Grip, Rakdos Charm (I use it as my Artifact hate, but also to clear GY abused by Snapcaster), etc.
The reason people don't play Jund more is because they dislike losing to Combo so frequently (especially game 1). Yes, people like Brainstorm, but they also like having Force of Will and having a chance against combo decks games 1.
I find it ironic your friend says to play Shardless BUG when in fact, we wreck Shardless BUG. At the same time, it's quite good against a lot of decks, but Miracles and Shardless BUG are my two easiest match-ups with Jund.