MTG Salvation

Quote from yaWgnorW

Thanks for the responses guys, of course quite helpful. I ask that all because some players suggest that Hymn is bad vs a lot of tempo decks / control decks, whereas I felt it was generally good if utilized correctly. I think 3 is a good number in the main.

Three is fine in the main, but I think what people are suggesting is that it might be the first thing you side out. Well second to Thoughtseize against a deck like RUG Delver so sometimes I keep them in. They tend to empty their hand pretty quickly (or what they kept are counter spells and cantrips) and the 2 damage will hurt in the long run. Then again, I only have a few cards for RUG Delver in my SB, but I usually take out my discard against them. That isn't to say it's worthless, but hopefully you have better cards in your SB.

Quote from Tykimeister

So someone should have to wait a whole year for a SCG legacy tournament to come to a close by town?

I live in a city with 500,000+ people and there is not a legacy tournament in seight.

Not at all. As I wrote, locally I play just fine.If you do not have a local scene then as others have said, build it.

I am in the process of moving to an area without two Legacy tournaments a week and am preparing by having 4 or 5 Legacy decks already built for people to play with. Everything from Budget (Burn) to expensive (Esperblade) and all three archetypes (aggrlo, combo, and control). Three of the decks are actually pretty cheap and I'm hoping people realize Legacy isn't that much more expensive than Standard (due to rotation) and maybe hop on board. If not, at least they got to try it out before diving in. Best case, I find new Legacy buddies :).

Quote from zemogFC

Its a vicious cycle. No one plays Legacy or Modern because no one plays Legacy or Modern.

No one plays Legacy?

Tell that to the hundreds of people playing it every week at the Starcity Opens (500+ two weeks ago?). Or tell that to the 20+ people (myself included) who go to the TWO weekly Legacy events in my town.

Quote from SiNcereX

sup broski, i'm originally from Indiana and let me say...Legacy is in short supply. Thought if you look really hard you can find it, but its just not there unless there is a SCG tourny in town. the only place i know of that does legacy, is a place called The Game Preserve, and even then its rarely.

So in short...get used to Standard/Modern lol.

This makes me sad :(. Thanks though.

I guess I will try to do what others on here say and "if you build it, they will come." I have enough a collection to have two Tier 1 Legacy decks built and also some other decks like Affinity and Burn. Hopefully I can get enough people interested locally.

I guess worst case I play at the Starcity Opens every few months, but I imagine I will be very rusty each tournament.

There's seriously a thread about this in General after the previous one was locked in Rumor Mill?

Then again, at least it's hilarious seeing all these people white knighting a girl who got mad that people weren't nice to her on the internet and so took her ball and went home.

Carry on.

The more detailed pictures look legit. If the seller doesn't mind you could always do the "bend test," but that might be a bit much. I imagine once you touch it you'll know based on the texture.

Quote from DrendDragonspawn

What is with you and claiming that others are typing 'angry?' I can't say that I by any means 'angry'. I am literalistic. I mean what I say and say what I mean. I may be thinking this with a tone if derision due to the sheer stupidity of the statements and the refusal to acknowledge an entire post for the content of that post, then claiming that you have correctly deduced a hidden meaning or emotion, but that by NO means infers, nor means, anger. Unless someone online comes out and says 'I'm angry,' don't assume they are. I don't get angry over losses. NOT. A. SPIKE. This is not a difficult concept to understand. I play for the enjoyment of the game. I likely would have long ago burned down many gaming stores if I got angry over petty crap like online discussions and card games.

(FYI, to a casual player, spike is a derogatory term meaning overly obsessed, spiteful, arrogant, rude, maniacally competitive moron who cares more about winning and rubbing the noses of others in the fact that they lost than actually having a good time. Another thing spikes are known for is being sore losers. Don't much care for them.)

Oh, man, epic skill there opening a tarmogoyf, one of the best creatures ever printed in this game, worth more than its weight in gold, and choosing it instead of aether spellbomb, which is clearly lack luster in comparison. Over exhaggeration is fun, isn't it?

I actually have no idea what you are replying about since you haven't rebutted any of my arguments regarding your implications regarding Limited and have instead chosen (again) to use your podium to discuss competitiveness and gone off-topic.

I do however find it amusing you talk about not being angry and then spend three paragraphs on a passionate diatribe that misses the entire argument's point and instead focus on something relatively unimportant. If anything it really tells me more about you than anything.

Regardless we're off-topic so I'll leave you to it. I'm fairly certain myself and Beerblebrox have sufficiently rebutted your assumptions regarding limited and no one else probably cares beyond that so I'll ignore it.

Quote from Sir Bill

But that number isn't completely accurate, for the open in Madison was on Mother's Day and a large number of players did not show up. Not that there is any way of knowing how many players would have shown up if the open wasn't scheduled on a holiday, but the 50% growth your talking about is surely false.

Agreed, but would you still not agree that year to year in Wisconsin SCG opens that there has been growth in attendance? Perhaps it's not as high as 50%, but to say it's "dying" (which you did not say, but others constantly say) is a bit disingenuous if not downright wrong.

Quote from ultimania92

That's confirmation bias for one data point. And the open in Madison was on mother's day so not everyone showed up. I'd want to see this 50.8% growth or close to it at each event year-to-year to be sure about this. Argument refuted.

Realistically speaking, Legacy has a very real limit to how large it can arguably get. The supply on cards IS going to be a very contended point. It'll get progressively harder to get the staples and the format will stop growing if that.

It won't grow down the line and there's a very real risk of SCG dropping Legacy opens which would kill the scene in the U.S.

That's a fair enough point, but as Tormod said, I could just go and find some random reason for why another random event did badly too no? And then I'd correlate that toward that format's death. As he also said, how do you know for sure the attendance would have gone up if it wasn't Mother's Day? Correlation does not equal causation. You (like me) have no actual basis for saying one thing happened because of the other. Neither of us knows. We're just correlating.

For example, I conclude that Modern is doing poorly because the last few years many people have economic troubles and therefore cannot afford Magic cards (I do not actually believe this). I correlate the lack of disposable income (or jobs) to the lack of interest in Modern. Therefore, Modern is dying because of the economy (nor do I actually believe Modern is dying). It has nothing to do with the fact the banlist is absurd and reactionary, the barrier to entry is nearly as high as Legacy, and many people (including pros) don't find it fun.

All you're doing is theorycrafting (like many Legacy doomsayers) and have no actual facts or statistics. Time and time again I see this "the format is too expensive" or "there is only a finite supply" arguments and yet the statistics do not support the continued growth. It's just theory. Meanwhile I (and others) have time and time again come with statistics and facts that can easily be verified. Whether you can come up with a reason for such numbers is one thing, but you still can't "refute" them with non-verifiable theories.

Rukcus already posted a year-to-year growth and it was (IIRC) 11 or 12% across all SCG events across a year+ period. I won't deny the barrier to entry is high, but these (constant) claims of Legacy's inevitable death are getting rather annoying and are downright misrepresented. I won't deny that it may not always "grow," but the idea of it dying is ridiculous. Even if SCG were to drop it, there is still strong local presence, European interest, etc. Again, the idea of it "dying" or SCG "killing" it is a bit absurd.

For the record, I'm sure Mother's Day did affect attendance, but not to the point that the Midwest area isn't growing in Legacy interest, which seems to be what you are implying.

Quote from Jenesis

That breakdown only exists because the website mis-categorizes any deck whose primary win condition is combat damage as "Aggro." RUG Delver is aggro-control, Jund is midrange, Maverick is midrange, and Death & Taxes is control(!!)

If you define "Aggro" the way it's defined in every other format that draws a distinction between different types of creature decks, the only "Aggro" decks on that list that have more than one representation are Goblins and UR Delver.

Legacy is really not a friendly place to be for people who want to be alpha striking for the win on turn 4. I'm fine with that, because I recognize that a lot of people like to play combo, a lot of people like to play Force of Will, and combo isn't going to need nerfing anytime soon because FOW keeps it in check. But it's the one sore point for me when people say "Legacy is diverse."

I see what you are saying and somewhat agree since Zoo is my pet deck and that is a true Aggro deck. However, as you already stated RUG Delver is itself an Aggro Control deck and more accurately a tempo deck. It *does* alpha strike with efficient one and two mana creatures while playing tempo cards like Stifle, Wasteland, and Daze to keep their opponents off their resources.

I agree that it is sometimes hard to classify decks, but as we are discussing in another threat in the Legacy sub-forum, you have to draw a line. I could come up with a (bad) argument about how Zoo or Goblins is a Control deck since it controls the board state, but I'd be wrong. You have to draw a line somewhere and as you noted, RUG Delver itself is an Aggro-Control deck so I don't think it's a completely incorrect classification on that webpage.

If anything, the fact such decks exist (Aggro-Control) is somewhat of a testament of the format's diversity.

Quote from Valarin

I tend to agree with the OP. The best cards naturally rise to the top, so the deck archetypes are going to get pretty stale. Some people will call even a 1 card difference between two decks to be "deck diversity", but playing a different sword in Stoneblade or 3 Brainstorms and a Ponder vs 4 Brainstorms in High Tide is does not make them "different decks"

So much of the format is "Force or lose" that the particular flavor of combo barely matters anymore. Whether or not it's a T1 Belcher for lethal or T1 drop 30 Goblins on the field or T1 Tendrils for 20 or T1 mill me for 100, I don't consider that "diverse" gameplay wise. It's still "Force of Will or you lose". I don't consider a format held together by a single card exactly diverse.

First off, you've shown your ignorance in the format when you said "3 Brainstorms and a Ponder vs. 4 Brainstorms in High Tide." High Tide runs 4 Brainstorms and I actually don't know a single blue-based deck in Legacy that doesn't start with 4 Brainstorms, which frankly would have helped your argument regarding diversity (i.e. Brainstorm is so prevalent).

With that said, apparently you did not see that the latest GP (which had 1300+ attendees), the deck that won was Death and Taxes, which has exactly 0 copies of Force of Will. Elves also did quite well, which also has 0 copies of Force of Will.

Please tell us again how you know so much about Legacy...

Quote from Wildfire393

If you look at the results of top-8ing decks (http://mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE), the top 5 most popular don't even make up 50% of the meta.

Thank you for this. I actually find it very interesting that the breakdown of Aggro/Control/Combo Top 8's isn't so one-sided with a split of 36/37/27. Had you not posted that, I would have thought it was a lot different.

This also illustrates quite clearly how diverse things are.

16% of the format is too much for modern so that's why deathrite was banned? 16% is laughable in terms of dominating a format. You would ban primeval titan in modern? I rest my case. You're in favor of banning a 6 drop that fetches 2 lands into play. That's the real hilarity. Your ego is gigantic because you think you are right no matter what another person says. Deathrite shaman is not broken. Rather the modern banned list is broken in that too many cards are banned there that shouldn't be and when you ban cards that don't really merit a ban you start going down a slippery slope of banning more cards that then become more powerful as a result of unnecessary bans. Deathrite shaman is one of those. Banned a whole lot of cards in modern until deathrite dominated and then they banned deathrite. It's the same argument in legacy. You ban everything until rebels is good and then you ban lin sivvi.

Things are more unfair in modern than legacy. You don't have force of will in that format. That's the main difference between legacy and modern. In legacy force polices the format. In modern? There's nothing like force there no disrupting shoal does not count. The cheapest countermagic is 1-2 mana and none of it is hard countermagic a la counterspell. The only 1 mana counter is spell snare, which is great or terrible depending on the metagame.

Another thing about your banned list, you banned batterskull but not stoneforge mystic. Stoneforge mystic is far better than anything on your list except skullclamp, hypergenesis, and blazing shoal. JTMS does not belong there. But I bet you're still just one of those people butthurt over cawblade. Cawblade is done and gone. Cawblade wasn't great due to JTMS it was great due to the white tinker that isn't on your hypothetical banlist. They banned JTMS just to be safe just like when they banned affinity out of standard where they banned a ton of cards to be safe they did the same with cawblade the only card they didn't ban that they probably could have was preordain. Preordain isn't on your list either. With your list people are still stoneforging up swords and wrecking face with them. They get preordain in fast combo and just as a very good combo enabler in general. Artifact bans could probably be unbanned in modern as the synergy that they have with affinity is very small they work with plating and that's about it since frogmite/myr enforcer got powercreeped out of existence.

Tarmogoyf is the best blue creature ever printed just saying. You really don't understand storm combo at all. I've played storm since mystical got axed. The cantrips are what make storm the beast that it is. The cantrips are split cards that can be either rituals, tutors, or engines. I don't know about you but paying U to have access to multiple types of cards is pretty broken. Cantrips are what run storm combo. Replace all those cantrips with other cards in combo and see how it goes. Oh right we flooded out on rituals this game never seeing a tutor before delver killed us. Oh no the land flood is real with no way to capitalize on it. Infernal tutor flood is the best thing ever when you can't cantrip to find lion's eye diamond. Fast mana is the support with cantrips being the main driver. If it really was a black deck you wouldn't see more islands in decklists than swamps and the quite frequent turn 1 play of fetching up basic island. But what do I know about storm combo I've only been called a master of the archetype by multiple people I know who respect my play quite a bit in regards to combo and being able to find the correct line of play in nigh unwinnable scenarios while they themselves can't imagine how to play against a real opponent packing force of wills and other disruption.

I'm quick to discount colors not blue because blue is so much better than all the other colors combined not close and it never will be close. If you told me that in 20 years white/black/green/red would be the best color in eternal I'd laugh my ass off at you and call you crazy.

Tell me again how you're drawing 3+ cards for less than 1 mana as I'm not seeing it. If you're talking about griselbrand or yawgmoth's bargain, neither of those cost less than 1 mana. Although it is technically possible to get griselbrand into play for a single mana via discarding it in the cleanup step and reanimating it on your next turn with reanimate that doesn't happen a great deal and requires way more setup than cruise because cruise costs 1 mana if you play the game of magic/cast spells, crack fetches, and have your creatures die to their removal spells. The only way griselbrand is less than treasure cruise is if you put it in off your opponents show and tell, eureka, tempting wurm, hunted wumpus, or something along those lines. Even so drawing 3 for U is still the most powerful thing in legacy right now. Ancestral recall is ******* bonkers. If cruise is fine then why isn't ancestral recall legal? Oh right it's the 2nd best card in the game and would warp legacy around itself like cruise is currently doing.

Quote from LandBoySteve »

Here is the top 16 from GP NJ

Jeskai Stoneblade
Infect
Storm
Miracles
Miracles
U/R Delver
Metalworker
U/R Landstill
Omni-Tell
Jeskai Delver
Miracles
Elves
Sneak And Show
Grixis Control
Jeskai Stoneblade
Sultai Delver

And Lands JUST missed the top 16.

Do you really feel this isn't a diverse meta? Do you ever expect MUD to make top 8? I know I didn't, nor Infect.

Here's the bottom line for me. We can complain about cards or we can complain about decks. If we complain about cards, there are a ton that are played more than any other and most of them are blue. But if we want to complain about decks, we can't. There are plenty of different decks in Legacy right now that are competitive.

I can see where you're coming from. I honestly can. There is some variety in those decks.

But can you see the other side of the coin? When you take a closer look at the top 16, here's what you see:

1st: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Jeskai Stoneblade)
2nd: 4x Brainstorm, 3x Force of Will (Infect)
3rd: 4x Brainstorm (Storm)
4th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Miracles)
5th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Miracles)
6th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (U/R Delver)
7th: Metalworker
8th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (U/R Landstill)
9th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Omni-Tell)
10th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Jeskai Delver)
11th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Miracles)
12th: Elves
13th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Sneak And Show)
14th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Grixis Control)
15th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Jeskai Stoneblade)
16th: 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will (Sultai Delver)

I mean, can you at least try to understand why some people have a problem with that?

There are colors I don't enjoy playing as much as others such as green, which is why I recently sold my Elves deck. I just don't get into it.

Just for a second, try to imagine if every deck above started with 4 Gaea's Cradle and 4 Elvish Visionary or whatever. Would you like Legacy as much? Even if there were a variety of different elf builds, would you still proclaim how varied the format is?

You say you don't hate green, but you don't like to play it. The same is true for other people. You don't have to hate blue to want to play with and against something besides 4x Brainstorm, 4x Force of Will.

Quote from LandBoySteve »

Let me ask a couple of questions. And yes, I'm being very serious.

1) What color would you say these decks are?

Jund
Maverick
Aggro Loam
Infect (2nd place GP)
Food Chain (did very well at the GP)

I could go on but I think that's more than enough.

Me? I call those decks the colors that they contain. You wouldn't call Jund black would you?

So why doesn't this same courtesy go to decks that are UR, UW, UB or whatever? Why is anything with blue in it called a blue deck?

That is my problem with this entire argument and hatred towards blue. So yes, to me a blue deck is mono blue. If it has other colors it's not blue. It's whatever those colors are. That's the way it was back in 94. We didn't have this hatred for a color because it was played in several decks. Back then I played BR, GR, GW, UW, UR and even UB. It was tough making 3 color decks that were any good because you didn't have way to fix your mana like you do now. We didn't get the fetch lands we now use in Legacy until Onslaught. And then look how many years it took after that to get the Zendikar ones. Fixing your mana now is a piece of cake outside of some really bad draws. But back in the day, you were crazy to make a 3 color deck.

...uhh...yes? I would call Jund black. Because it is black, red, and green. If someone asked me if Jund was black, I would say yes. If someone asked me if Jund was monoblack, I'd say no. Because those are two different questions. Being black doesn't stop you from being red and green. The same courtesy is extended to blue...you just don't hear anyone mention the amount of white, black, red, or green decks because none of their quantities compare to the amount of blue decks. I don't even care from a strategic standpoint that the metagame is so blue because I care more about archetypes, but some people do, and I can absolutely admit that there are more blue decks than any other color.

Blue is not the problem. The problem is how easy it is to put together the best cards that Magic has to offer in any color and not have to worry "realistically" about color screw. And I don't see any way of rewinding the clock.

But okay, let's get to my 2nd question assuming that a fix is critical for the sake of the game, which I don't believe, but I'll play along.

2) What do you do to fix Legacy?

It's been suggested, going by the posts in this thread the last few days that we ban Brainstorm or Treasure Cruise. I don't think anybody feels we should ban both but you never know.

Let's take them one at a time.

Treasure Cruise - Will banning this card suddenly make Jund, Loam, Burn and any other deck that doesn't play it suddenly that much better? Are we going to see fewer blue based decks in the top 16? Are we really seeing that many more now than we used to see before TC? If so, show me the data. Show me how Legacy really has warped the deck representation. Prove to me that TC has made such an impact that it's indisputable. Let's put it this way. The decks that are now winning with TC, were they not winning without it? UR Delver, which was supposed to be the top deck for this GP, didn't even make the top 8.

Brainstorm - I think more people feel Brainstorm is the bigger problem and, IMO, they're right. It is much more important to the strategies of these blue based decks than TC. So what happens if we ban Brainstorm? Do these decks survive? And now we're not just talking about Delver and Stoneblade. We're talking EVERY deck that uses Brainstorm including storm decks. What do you think will happen to Legacy if we ban this card? Do you honestly believe it will be for the better?

We're looking for a solution to a "problem" that I honestly don't feel exists. But assuming it does, what's the solution? I don't feel it's banning these 2 cards. I feel it's simply printing more hate against blue until things even themselves out.

Look at all the hate we've been printing of late. We can certainly do more.

That's the answer. Give the other colors the tools to fight these decks. Otherwise, by banning these cards you actually narrow the meta because many decks will stop seeing play and very few will take their place.

Can I prove that beyond any doubt? No, of course not. It's just my opinion. But it's just as valid an opinion as those who feel Legacy is busted and cards need to be banned to fix it. Because that's all those are as well, opinions.

I'm not sure what I'd want to ban...it really depends on criteria.

If I cared about pure quantity, I'd obviously go with Brainstorm...but then I'd have to decide what level of representation is "okay" and ignore archetype diversity.

If I cared about a card being clearly above the curve in terms of aggressiveness, especially in blue, I'd ban Delver, but then "it's just a dumb beater" etc.

If I cared about a card being absolutely miserable to play against, I would ban True-Name, but TNN is beatable with hate and I would have to define "fun."

If I cared about a card being derpity derp derp as hell, I would ban Show and Tell, but then I’d have to worry more about how boring a card is than how often it wins.

If I cared about a card being influential enough to make it commonplace to maindeck REBs/Pyroblasts or graveyard hate like RiP and Leyline, then I’d ban Treasure Cruise, but then I’d have to question whether or not this is just the straw that broke the camel’s back and the real problem is any of the cards I listed above or Ponder/Counterbalance/Daze/Spell Pierce/Fetchlands etc.

See, the thing is that I don't believe that any of those cards would fit ban criteria by themselves. I don’t think there is just one card that is blue-ifying the metagame...I think it is ALL of it. I think that the summation is everything is a bad thing, not necessarily because of where we are, but because of where it implies we are heading. For the last three years, we have gotten bluer and bluer, and for anyone who cares about more people being able to play Legacy, this is an obvious problem. We are already capped by the amount of ABUR duals out there...why make it even worse by adding extra strain to the blue duals?

What do I want? I want good consistency tools for other colors and it would be an added bonus if they don’t just pop straight into an existing blue deck. Basically, I want more Green Sun’s Zeniths and less Treasure Cruises. The problem is that I’ve been wanting that for years, and blue keeps getting the best toys.

Quote from DunstilBrejik »

Quote from Xequecal »

The diversity of legacy is, has been, and hopefully will continue to be, about the diversity of archetype. To speak of the importance of color as you are is folly.

They could unban Mind's Desire, one of the most broken cards ever, and it would probably have no effect on Legacy. 6 mana is beyond uncastable.

Actually, I'd throw Mind's Desire in the wishboard of High Tide, and have a ball.

Er, how is High Tide going to manage that, when Mind's Desire is a Sorcery and Cunning Wish can only get Instants?

Quote from LandBoySteve »

Let's make this real simple. If you remove the strengths that make blue what it is from the color, you might as well make Magic a 4 color game. Blue can't make extra mana. It can't gain life. It can't pump creatures. It can't burn you to death like red can in 4 turns. Blue by itself, outside of a few fringe mono colored decks in Legacy, can't beat you by itself. It's almost impossible. It needs other colors to win.

The thing I dislike most about your arguments is that you tend to make these dramatic assumptions and misrepresent what other people are actually saying. We're not talking about killing blue. We are - or at least *I* am - talking about balancing the format so that it is a game of 5 roughly equal colors employing a variety of strategies.

(By the way, blue can do everything on that list. Show and Tell is a virtual ritual that generates any amount of mana in any color. Omniscience and Dream Halls are in the same vein. Blue gains life in the same way that every other color does: Batterskull. This equipment is currently better than any colored card at gaining life. Merfolk is a deck full of creatures that pump each other. For burn, blue does have access to Psionic Blast, which is admittedly not that great, but still an option. But to be honest, Delver is as efficient as Lightning Bolt in many games.)

On the other hand, mono white, red and green can all beat you on their own.

And yet...

But again, outside of Merfolk, High Tide and Omni-Tell, mono blue can't compete. Even Landstill plays bolt.

You name all these top tier mono-blue decks and say it can't compete? And how many mono-color decks in other colors exist? Red IS burn. White IS Death and Taxes. Green IS Elves. Yet, you're worried about the one color to have three to four distinct top tier decks?

It is absolutely absurd to bemoan the weakness of blue and state ways it supposedly can't win, when literally 85% to 90% of the decks that are winning are blue.

The true fix is to banish this guy and some of the other ones.

Great news, everyone!

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/27081_2014-Open-Series-In-Store-Programs-Update.html

Every Sunday event announced this far will be Legacy format, and they're planning to do that for the rest of 2014 as well!

Earlier this year, we experimented with offering Opens using a number of different formats and configurations. The results of each experiment were disappointing by every metric, so for 2014 we plan on returning to the Open Series formats we know our players want to play and our SCGLive viewers want to watch: Standard every Saturday followed by Legacy every Sunday.

Quote from lordofthepit23

From Ben Bleiweiss on the Source:

My name is Ben Bleiweiss and I approve of this message!

(PS: Did I also mention that we were chosen to run GP: New Jersey in 2014, which is the only Legacy GP in the United States next year! Personally, super-excited about that one!)