Memorial is better for long-term (creatures given haste from then on) and to ramp into with Primal Command or Genesis Wave (lol haste)
Monument is good for... well....... dropping when you have massive amount of creatures then wrathing the board? And wrath protection.
Monument has a build-in sac restriction, and leaves your vulnerable to counter-attacks. They're both niche and both good, but Memorial ends up being the overall better card.
I don't see how Omniscience is any more of a problem than any of the infinite mana combos out there. It is actually less of a problem with the restrictions it has.
Notice the only ones who think Omniscience isn't broken are the guys who run strictly cut-throat combo decks, built specifically with infinite combos in mind.
News flash: highly competitive combo decks ( read: little to no interaction with other players, winning as fast as possible at any cost, avoiding politics because your deck is capable of OHKOing everyone simultaneously) generally don't make the game fun. Before you fall back on your last defense, the "fun is subjective, therefore I win the argument" bull****, I'll point you to the banlist. What if Sway of the Stars is fun for me? What is Time Walk is fun for me? Why can't I use Staff of Domination? If everything is subjective and groups should make their own banlist, why have a universal banlist? Because some things are so busted that they need to be banned, regardless of your subjective views. You can make a convincing argument for virtually anything. But some things just need that banhammer regardless of your debating skill. In order to see what needs to be banned, look to real games and real consequences. Did the card ruin the games where it was played? How do people feel playing it, or playing against it? Yes, these views are subjective too. But banlists don't carefully balance everyone's opinions. If it ruins games for enough people consistently, it should be banned. If a card is banned, there's plenty of alternatives that are begging to be used, but aren't seen currently because they're second best.
EDH should be about giving everyone an enjoyable game. Wizards may have left authority to the RC, but look at the commander sets. The cards printed with commander in mind indirectly show how Wizards views EDH. Fun. Cards that benefit everyone, but potentially benefit you more (reminds me of Dream Halls). Cards that encourage interaction, politics, and interesting games. Banlists need to take everyone into consideration, which includes groups and games that are not founded and centered on winning the game as fast as possible. Maybe - MAYBE - Omniscience won't make it into your neckbeard decks because it's 10 mana. But outside that stifling environment it's busted.
Yes EDH exists outside your realm of RNG racing with combo decks. Shocking I know. But consider this: unless we're all running combo decks, Omniscience is broken beyond hope. As some have said, it's basically infinite mana without the combo. This level of game-ending power is enough to see it banned, and looking at it from this perspective I now think it should be.
What is it to you? I thought that Omniscience was too expensive for your combos? And if so, why would you care if it's banned?
The banlist, at the end of the day, is subjective - just like your concept of fun. The RC makes calculated judgments, but they are not omniscient nor infallible. Not every card that should be on the banlist is there at the moment. This is one of those cards. The cards that need to be banned are cards that are fundamentally flawed in EDH BECAUSE they make the game unenjoyablein the environments that they are used in. Perhaps Omniscience won't be a problem in the neckbeard circles, but outside of combo-driven racing games, it's making games consistently miserable. It's not all about power-level, which is probably another shocking concept to some. Unlike Griselbrand, Sundering Titan wasn't banned because it was too strong. It simply made the game too miserable for people who ran basic lands, who couldn't afford the neckbeard, alpha dual lands. Omniscience and Worldfire are two cards that promote the same fundamental problem as Sundering Titan: ruining games. An intelligently designed deck consistently wins the game the same turn Omniscience is dropped, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. Worldfire makes everything that happened previous to it resolving completely obsolete, and that's directly contrary to the spirit of EDH.
The last thing I want to say is that Dream Halls is a much more balanced card outside the neckbearder decks. It is inherent card disadvantage, and your opponents can use it too. Perhaps Dream Halls is that 5 mana combo enabler which negates its downside by winning the game for you that turn. Otherwise, it's a poor man's Omniscience.
No one said it was bad though, we just said it does the same thing any infinite combo already does. People are talking about it like it's the greatest card ever printed, and I think that's quite the stretch. If your meta doesn't allow infinite combos then I'm sure it's amazing. You're bringing a gun to a knife fight. In a meta that does allow infinite combos it's much less impressive.
It's actually slightly worse than infinite mana, but most infinite mana combos can be seen coming a mile away.
You seem to be calling people neckbeards now. Please stop. Such a silly insult. And yes, outside environments that encourage instant win combos, it is incredibly powerful, because it is also an instant win combo if played right, and the environment isn't prepared for it (like now, since it was released a couple of days ago).
What you're doing is akin to bringing a crossbow to a knifefight because guns were banned, and then saying it's overpowered.
Give it some time, let people adjust, and I'm willing to bet it will find a comfortable place in some decks as poor man's infinite win condition, but not as anything really serious.
The trend is to talk about a new card like it's bad. Wait a few months. Then if it's bad, claim you knew it all along. If it's good, you actually never said it was bad, in fact you were confident all along it would be an all-star.
Not always, we don't have many blue-players.
In our regular group we have 6 blue decks.
3 don't play counters since they are very light on blue and the other 2 are mine.
Okay. So let me get this straight.
You play in a group practically devoid of blue, and half of those rare blue decks don't run counters?
And you're looking at me, implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because my group doesn't like infinite combos? At least we know what the best color is and how to use it.
A half decent blue deck can stop a combo deck in its tracks AND win simultaneously. Please, don't talk about 32 mana Genesis Waves. Your Boseju is getting Strip Mined, bounced, or your Genesis Wave is being redirected, Commandeered, or Time Stopped-- if one of us hasn't won already. If you have Boseju, that is.
Once again, I never said it should be banned. I said it shouldn't. Outside your neckbeard, "let's RNG race to see who has the best infinite combo instant win deck" it's incredible.
Maybe you should post a decklist once.
And what the hell is the rest of the table doing?
It seems like your deck is all about blowing everything up and kicking ass with Planeswalkers. You don't need Omniscience to win.
And how many games did you lose?
I'm 25-3.
Genesis Wave not a problem?
Reveal top 30 cards, play Akroma's Memorial and win.
That's what it usually does.
As far as I can remember, we never recurred or copied it.
Hmm, that's a 32 mana spent. And someone doesn't have a counterspell?
That doesn't really have anything to do with what I posted.
You're playing something that allows you to "go infinite" in an environment where traditional infinite is banned, and therefore people aren't prepared for it. Of course it's going to be good for you until the environment starts adjusting.
Some groups I play with online use infinite combos, and it functions well there, too. I don't think it should be banned because it's not hyper-competitive, but in anything less than the most extreme neckbeard environments you're used to, it's quite overpowered.
Just won again, 5 player game. Omniscience FTW. Insane card, everyone calling for ban over here.
Well then of course you would sing the praises of Omniscience, since it allows you to do what Infinite Combos do (for the most part), but at a higher initial casting cost.
I stopped playing infinite combos when I realized that making a EDH "vintage tendrils" deck wasn't hard. Infinite combos just aren't hard to execute, they're not fun and not interesting. Just throw in a few counterspells and you're set.
Honestly, the problem here is Consecrated Sphinx + draw 7's. You could just as easily have played your ridiculous number of spells with Dream Halls or one of a thousand Palinchron infinite mana combos.
If I played Dream Halls, the effect spreads to everyone. Grand Arbiter had a full hand, I'm sure he had another counterspell ready.
4 players: Grand Arbiter, Mono-Black goodstuff, Ghave, and myself.
Waited until a good opportunity, when Arbiter was mostly spent
Tutored Show and Tell EOT
Flashed back increasing ambition, getting Omniscience and Decree of Annihilation
played show and tell with my remaining mana, keeping two open for a countersquall
Played show and tell putting in omniscience (arbiter played a land), played jace the mind sculptor for free, it was countered due to arbiter putting in a land, I let that happen opting to save my counterspell just in case (if he happened to counter show and tell, I could have countered that, it was his only counter he could use at that time)
Played Consecrated Sphinx, played Time Spiral, drew 35, played out, used Timetwister, drew 35 more, Nicol Bolas, Cast Through Time, Bribery, Cruel Ultimatum, Jace The Mind Sculptor, Decree of Annihilation. Everyone scooped, and rightly so.
Well, then you played the game right, with respect to timing and politics, that's part of EDH. You waited for a good chance to drop a game ending threat, protected it and won, but that doesn't mean it deserves to be banned. It's a great enabler, assuming you can stick it, but there are plenty of cards that win games if you just play them at the right time. There are also a lot less ways to cheat it into play and mono-blue already has several infinite "answer me or win" cards.
I agree, I don't think it's bannable. I just don't like people saying this card is flashy, win-more, not worth the cost, etc... especially when they're not even running it.
Quite frankly, if you get to 13 mana while playing blue, you shouldn't need Omniscience in order to win the game.
Quite frankly, that's a baseless generalization. Sure, if I'm the only blue player at the table, your statement may hold some water. But if there's two other dudes running blue, you're just giving me ****.
Does cutting the mana cost of Capsize in half really justify building a deck around a 10 drop enchantment?
Omniscience doesn't require building around it. You can put it into any deck with decent drawing power and it virtually wins the game on its own.
Then again, I'm probably the only one here actually running it in real games.
you're both presupposing Omniscience isn't removed
Comments like these show me that you don't even believe what you're saying. If Omniscience is just a win-more, big flashy effect, why are people removing it? Why do I deserve to win?
You say one thing but imply another. I have real wins due to this card, you have nothing but poor theorycafting and "older cards are better cards" attitudes.
Monument is good for... well....... dropping when you have massive amount of creatures then wrathing the board? And wrath protection.
Monument has a build-in sac restriction, and leaves your vulnerable to counter-attacks. They're both niche and both good, but Memorial ends up being the overall better card.
Notice the only ones who think Omniscience isn't broken are the guys who run strictly cut-throat combo decks, built specifically with infinite combos in mind.
News flash: highly competitive combo decks ( read: little to no interaction with other players, winning as fast as possible at any cost, avoiding politics because your deck is capable of OHKOing everyone simultaneously) generally don't make the game fun. Before you fall back on your last defense, the "fun is subjective, therefore I win the argument" bull****, I'll point you to the banlist. What if Sway of the Stars is fun for me? What is Time Walk is fun for me? Why can't I use Staff of Domination? If everything is subjective and groups should make their own banlist, why have a universal banlist? Because some things are so busted that they need to be banned, regardless of your subjective views. You can make a convincing argument for virtually anything. But some things just need that banhammer regardless of your debating skill. In order to see what needs to be banned, look to real games and real consequences. Did the card ruin the games where it was played? How do people feel playing it, or playing against it? Yes, these views are subjective too. But banlists don't carefully balance everyone's opinions. If it ruins games for enough people consistently, it should be banned. If a card is banned, there's plenty of alternatives that are begging to be used, but aren't seen currently because they're second best.
EDH should be about giving everyone an enjoyable game. Wizards may have left authority to the RC, but look at the commander sets. The cards printed with commander in mind indirectly show how Wizards views EDH. Fun. Cards that benefit everyone, but potentially benefit you more (reminds me of Dream Halls). Cards that encourage interaction, politics, and interesting games. Banlists need to take everyone into consideration, which includes groups and games that are not founded and centered on winning the game as fast as possible. Maybe - MAYBE - Omniscience won't make it into your neckbeard decks because it's 10 mana. But outside that stifling environment it's busted.
Yes EDH exists outside your realm of RNG racing with combo decks. Shocking I know. But consider this: unless we're all running combo decks, Omniscience is broken beyond hope. As some have said, it's basically infinite mana without the combo. This level of game-ending power is enough to see it banned, and looking at it from this perspective I now think it should be.
What is it to you? I thought that Omniscience was too expensive for your combos? And if so, why would you care if it's banned?
The banlist, at the end of the day, is subjective - just like your concept of fun. The RC makes calculated judgments, but they are not omniscient nor infallible. Not every card that should be on the banlist is there at the moment. This is one of those cards. The cards that need to be banned are cards that are fundamentally flawed in EDH BECAUSE they make the game unenjoyable in the environments that they are used in. Perhaps Omniscience won't be a problem in the neckbeard circles, but outside of combo-driven racing games, it's making games consistently miserable. It's not all about power-level, which is probably another shocking concept to some. Unlike Griselbrand, Sundering Titan wasn't banned because it was too strong. It simply made the game too miserable for people who ran basic lands, who couldn't afford the neckbeard, alpha dual lands. Omniscience and Worldfire are two cards that promote the same fundamental problem as Sundering Titan: ruining games. An intelligently designed deck consistently wins the game the same turn Omniscience is dropped, and there's little to nothing anyone can do about it. Worldfire makes everything that happened previous to it resolving completely obsolete, and that's directly contrary to the spirit of EDH.
The last thing I want to say is that Dream Halls is a much more balanced card outside the neckbearder decks. It is inherent card disadvantage, and your opponents can use it too. Perhaps Dream Halls is that 5 mana combo enabler which negates its downside by winning the game for you that turn. Otherwise, it's a poor man's Omniscience.
It's actually slightly worse than infinite mana, but most infinite mana combos can be seen coming a mile away.
The trend is to talk about a new card like it's bad. Wait a few months. Then if it's bad, claim you knew it all along. If it's good, you actually never said it was bad, in fact you were confident all along it would be an all-star.
I know the forum troll, neckbeard ways.
Okay. So let me get this straight.
You play in a group practically devoid of blue, and half of those rare blue decks don't run counters?
And you're looking at me, implying that I don't know what I'm talking about because my group doesn't like infinite combos? At least we know what the best color is and how to use it.
A half decent blue deck can stop a combo deck in its tracks AND win simultaneously. Please, don't talk about 32 mana Genesis Waves. Your Boseju is getting Strip Mined, bounced, or your Genesis Wave is being redirected, Commandeered, or Time Stopped-- if one of us hasn't won already. If you have Boseju, that is.
I'm 25-3.
Hmm, that's a 32 mana spent. And someone doesn't have a counterspell?
Some groups I play with online use infinite combos, and it functions well there, too. I don't think it should be banned because it's not hyper-competitive, but in anything less than the most extreme neckbeard environments you're used to, it's quite overpowered.
I stopped playing infinite combos when I realized that making a EDH "vintage tendrils" deck wasn't hard. Infinite combos just aren't hard to execute, they're not fun and not interesting. Just throw in a few counterspells and you're set.
If I played Dream Halls, the effect spreads to everyone. Grand Arbiter had a full hand, I'm sure he had another counterspell ready.
Infinite combos are banned in my group.
4 players: Grand Arbiter, Mono-Black goodstuff, Ghave, and myself.
Waited until a good opportunity, when Arbiter was mostly spent
Tutored Show and Tell EOT
Flashed back increasing ambition, getting Omniscience and Decree of Annihilation
played show and tell with my remaining mana, keeping two open for a countersquall
Played show and tell putting in omniscience (arbiter played a land), played jace the mind sculptor for free, it was countered due to arbiter putting in a land, I let that happen opting to save my counterspell just in case (if he happened to counter show and tell, I could have countered that, it was his only counter he could use at that time)
Played Consecrated Sphinx, played Time Spiral, drew 35, played out, used Timetwister, drew 35 more, Nicol Bolas, Cast Through Time, Bribery, Cruel Ultimatum, Jace The Mind Sculptor, Decree of Annihilation. Everyone scooped, and rightly so.
Omniscience.
I agree, I don't think it's bannable. I just don't like people saying this card is flashy, win-more, not worth the cost, etc... especially when they're not even running it.
Quite frankly, that's a baseless generalization. Sure, if I'm the only blue player at the table, your statement may hold some water. But if there's two other dudes running blue, you're just giving me ****.
Omniscience doesn't require building around it. You can put it into any deck with decent drawing power and it virtually wins the game on its own.
Then again, I'm probably the only one here actually running it in real games.
Run both
Comments like these show me that you don't even believe what you're saying. If Omniscience is just a win-more, big flashy effect, why are people removing it? Why do I deserve to win?
You say one thing but imply another. I have real wins due to this card, you have nothing but poor theorycafting and "older cards are better cards" attitudes.