Asmira, Holy Avenger: The general is probably the backup wincon since prime directive is to put out tokens and win with tokens. Play her over Rhys because people hate her SLIGHTLY less.
You can find resiliency in every color. Timmy can play Undying Evil on his cherished Primeval Titan and win quite handily from there himself. And there is a whole lot of other reason to play that card.
The problem is the mentality that assumes, from the design stage on, that my stuff will never get messed with outside of Doom Blade and Wrath of God, because any interaction harder to deal with than that violates me personally.
No one ever complains about creature kill. I've never heard a complaint about arty/enchantmet kill either. Fewer and fewer people complain about Instant/Sorcery kill, but hey, maybe complainers here are of the same mentality. But here's the rub. Nearly every casual complains about land kill. And those that don't convert to the complaining camp when they lose to it.
So if the gentleman's agreement is to interact, why the hypocrisy?
Unless there be any confusion, interaction means killing your opponent's stuff. If you choose to affect it, you are certainly not going to enhance it, at least nit vis-a vis yourself. You might enhance it and force him to use it against other opponents, but otherwise you will kill it, neutralize it, or co-opt it.
So, if I accept that my opponent interacting with my stuff means killing it, I am going to lose control of my stuff. I could say that I lose the ability to "interact" with my stuff, but that would be confusing in light of how we've already used the word, so I'll just say that my opponent's interactions often limit me in whatever way. He plays Doom Blade on my Prime Time, I can't swing for 2 accel every turn anymore, and so on.
But consider a rational player that's even the slightest degree more than ambivalent toward winning or losing. He doesn't have a million dollar sponsor deal, or any fans watching on TV. He just prefers, even if slightly, to win rather than lose. He's going to find what's beating him, and follow his agreement to interact with it in a way that it's not beating him anymore.
Well, the lands are beating me. I can't keep up with a player that has 5 tutors for Primeval and sticks Urborg into Cabal Coffers every game. Even aside from those lands, I can't keep up with the volume. I don't go lemming, believing the talk that green is the best color and red the worst. I just see that as unwillingness to use certain cards.
I interact with your lands by killing them with a sorcery. Interact with my Sorcery. Follow your part of the agreement.
Instead, you seethe and spit.
Now since I play mostly on modo, I can find a game whenever I want. No worries. I just don't like the betrayal.
Most of this talk concerns LD, but it's sort of a microcosm for any strategy not involving big fat beaters that swing for CA. You don't go beater for beater and you're ruining the game, these folks say.
I could care less if you steal my Primeval Titan with Mind Control, counter it with Dissipate, or even just tell it to GTFO my deck with something like Sadistic Sacrament. These are all fine ways of dealing with it, and while some players might get upset, I would have to imagine the vast majority understand how gross Prime Time is.
I bolded the most important part of your argument for emphasis, because I CAN'T INTERACT WITH YOUR SORCERY IN A MEANINGFUL WAY MOST OF THE TIME. Last couple posts spent time explaining why this is, so I won't re-iterate. Undying Evil isn't a bad card, but it's an narrow solution in a format practically founded on card versatility.
THAT is the difference. It's also why blue is one of the best colors in the game, because it's the color with the most ways to stop and effect game changing non-permanents.
It's perfectly reasonable to deal with a Primeval Titan by killing it and then dealing with problem lands. The problem is that since you're of a competitive mindset, you see it in terms of "3 for 1" which makes it seem completely and utterly illogical.
TL;DR: Your goal in a game of Commander is to win. My goal in a game of Commander is to play my stuff and interact with other people's stuff in a way that doesn't stop them from playing other stuff they might have.
The problem really is that your Jokalhaups can interact with my board (and everyone's) very nicely, but really, short of a counterspell (which means someone or me has to be playing blue), it's very hard to interact with.[/b][/color]
That's my problem with something like the Haups. It's one thing (and a good thing) to want interactivity, but a card like that is really only interactable with on a broad sense by one color. I'm sure if I scoured Gatherer I could find non-blue answers, but the point stands.
If your answer to a Primeval Titan is merely to kill the creature that's a 3-for-1, advantage them. That's not an answer.
Jokulhaups is an answer, albeit a loud one. Blood Moon effects are a 'softer' answer, but are much more vulnerable.
Basically, if everyone is trying to play fair, green isn't. Are you okay with that?
If you're thinking of it as a 3 for 1, I'd say this is the wrong format for that, at least according to the way I tend to play the format. If I want to worry about X for 1, I'm playing constructed.
My answer to such a thing? Kill the Titan. Better? Exile the Titan. Path, Swords, Dissipate, etc. Have ways to deal with the Maze of Ith or the Gaea's Cradle they tutor. There's tons of very playable targeted land d you can use to takeout the problem lands.
And to answer your question, if the choice is green is overpowered or land wipes in the format, I'll take green as overpowered any day of the week. I'd much rather lose to Ulamog or Genesis Wave for seven billion, but Hell, my SN on here is "Khalni Hydra," so YMWV.
My meta runs instant speed gy removal. I also dont follow how running draw/discard helps against getting hated out, but thats neither here nor there.
I think he's suggesting that he doesn't spam-fill his graveyard like a lot of Sedris lists do. Surgically dumping things with targeted effects puts the onus on the other player to decide when to pop your yard, and means that you can keep filling it after they've blown their GY hate. Unless your meta is INSANELY anti-graveyard, it's a pretty solid strategy and generally how I play Sedris myself.
The problem is that he's virtually a nine-mana general if you want to do anything with him and that is sad.
Griefer card, and I say this as someone who would benefit from running it greatly in my mono-red deck.
There's no fair reason for me to play it. I run spot land destruction effects to deal with problem lands. There are tons of them, many are colorless. Most decks can play them.
There's no reason to shut off someone's entire mana base in a casual format, which EDH by and large is. If your individual meta is cutthroat or you're playing for cash/prizes, by all means, but generally, it seems like a griefy card especially since there are SO MANY ways to deal with problematic non basics that don't involve turning lands into one of two colors that can't deal with enchantments.
Goblins have always had the ability to get in under an intensive counter deck though. It's why Red Deck Wins is always competitive regardless of what combos people come up with.
Also read as - Here comes my stuff! Lots of it! Goblin Guides, one drops, and efficient burn! You have about five turns to do whatever you're trying to do...Which is silly, but at least it peters out just as often as it smashes face before the other person can set up. Here's some ramp...turn four Inferno Titan...you have four turns to do whatever you're trying to do!
I love playing RDW, but your point speaks to my point of midrange strategies die. T4 Inferno Titan without an answer is GG...but how often is there NOT an answer, between counterspells and killspells and what not?
You always remember when you DON'T have the answer, not the myriad times you do. A six drop has to be good enough for a midrange or ramp deck to play it, knowing the risk of counters/kill.
Were the Titans too good? Yeah, probably, but hopefully Wizards will print powerful, but not omnipresent replacements for them in M13. Fat needs to be good to be played, or anything six drop or higher will be relegated to trade binders and EDH decks.
The problem is that they have nerfed counters in addition to buffing creatures. our best counter is mana leak which is a soft counter. You have more options depending on the format you play, but even in eternal formats the creature creep has caught up.
Counters NEEDED nerfing though, that's the thing. If you don't nerf them, there's no reason to play creatures. Control wins everything unless you play some hyper-aggressive aggro deck. Mid-range strategies just die.
If Control JUST had counterspells its one thing, but when a draw-go deck can kill or counter most things an opponent plays, while drawing cards EoT if needed, that's not a fair fight.
As has been discussed, you have to print powerful creatures, especially at higher drop slots, because they can be mostly blanked by 2 CMC Doom Blade or 2 CMC Mana Leak.
ETB is one way around the Doom Blade problem, but Mana Leak and counterspells in general still blank big drops otherwise.
You either have to nerf your removal and counters, or buff your creatures. Wizards has decided to buff creatures. Time will tell if they pull back on that and decide to nerf removal instead, but I think there'd be open rebellion if something like Cancel became the standard over Mana Leak.
This is probably the most important lesson to learn about magic. There's a huge difference in the quality of players who understand that life is generally meaningless and those who don't.
Absolutely a true lesson for most constructed events. Considerably less so for a format like multiplayer Commander where you can go from 25-30 life to zero without a whole lot of effort exerted on anyone's part.
That said, if I had Bob, there's decks I'd consider him in, but I generally prefer Phryexian Arena and the ilk since I tend to play in boardwipe happy games, where a Greaves on Bob means roughly diddly-poo.
A topdecked CS buys you probably at least two cards.
Topdecked RI guarantees you nothing if the table's hands are empty. If you're playing against a blue deck(s), though, the RI is probably easily more cards.
Of course, you can get into the red zone with CS, which at 4 flying power can be very relevant with equips and what have you too.
Depressing, that. Maybe I'll run him in RW with Marshal's Anthem instead then.
Asmira, Holy Avenger: The general is probably the backup wincon since prime directive is to put out tokens and win with tokens. Play her over Rhys because people hate her SLIGHTLY less.
Sedris, the Traitor King: Generally the deck wins through attrition and lots of advantage off of ETB guys. Backup plan A is probably fill graveyard with Stuff + Flayer of the Hatebound and cast Living Death.
Stonebrow, Krosan Hero: Beat With Fat. Coincidentally, this is also the deck's primary gameplan.
Konda, Lord of Eiganjo: Equip stuff to something evasive or indestructible.
Korlash, Heir to Blackblade: Probably Exsangunate, or equip Lashwrithe or Nightmare Lash to something saucy.
I could care less if you steal my Primeval Titan with Mind Control, counter it with Dissipate, or even just tell it to GTFO my deck with something like Sadistic Sacrament. These are all fine ways of dealing with it, and while some players might get upset, I would have to imagine the vast majority understand how gross Prime Time is.
I bolded the most important part of your argument for emphasis, because I CAN'T INTERACT WITH YOUR SORCERY IN A MEANINGFUL WAY MOST OF THE TIME. Last couple posts spent time explaining why this is, so I won't re-iterate. Undying Evil isn't a bad card, but it's an narrow solution in a format practically founded on card versatility.
THAT is the difference. It's also why blue is one of the best colors in the game, because it's the color with the most ways to stop and effect game changing non-permanents.
It's perfectly reasonable to deal with a Primeval Titan by killing it and then dealing with problem lands. The problem is that since you're of a competitive mindset, you see it in terms of "3 for 1" which makes it seem completely and utterly illogical.
TL;DR: Your goal in a game of Commander is to win. My goal in a game of Commander is to play my stuff and interact with other people's stuff in a way that doesn't stop them from playing other stuff they might have.
That's my problem with something like the Haups. It's one thing (and a good thing) to want interactivity, but a card like that is really only interactable with on a broad sense by one color. I'm sure if I scoured Gatherer I could find non-blue answers, but the point stands.
If you're thinking of it as a 3 for 1, I'd say this is the wrong format for that, at least according to the way I tend to play the format. If I want to worry about X for 1, I'm playing constructed.
My answer to such a thing? Kill the Titan. Better? Exile the Titan. Path, Swords, Dissipate, etc. Have ways to deal with the Maze of Ith or the Gaea's Cradle they tutor. There's tons of very playable targeted land d you can use to takeout the problem lands.
And to answer your question, if the choice is green is overpowered or land wipes in the format, I'll take green as overpowered any day of the week. I'd much rather lose to Ulamog or Genesis Wave for seven billion, but Hell, my SN on here is "Khalni Hydra," so YMWV.
No one is really going to object to you killing a Primeval Titan, but using the Haups to do it is kind of overkill, no?
I think he's suggesting that he doesn't spam-fill his graveyard like a lot of Sedris lists do. Surgically dumping things with targeted effects puts the onus on the other player to decide when to pop your yard, and means that you can keep filling it after they've blown their GY hate. Unless your meta is INSANELY anti-graveyard, it's a pretty solid strategy and generally how I play Sedris myself.
The problem is that he's virtually a nine-mana general if you want to do anything with him and that is sad.
There's no fair reason for me to play it. I run spot land destruction effects to deal with problem lands. There are tons of them, many are colorless. Most decks can play them.
There's no reason to shut off someone's entire mana base in a casual format, which EDH by and large is. If your individual meta is cutthroat or you're playing for cash/prizes, by all means, but generally, it seems like a griefy card especially since there are SO MANY ways to deal with problematic non basics that don't involve turning lands into one of two colors that can't deal with enchantments.
I love playing RDW, but your point speaks to my point of midrange strategies die. T4 Inferno Titan without an answer is GG...but how often is there NOT an answer, between counterspells and killspells and what not?
You always remember when you DON'T have the answer, not the myriad times you do. A six drop has to be good enough for a midrange or ramp deck to play it, knowing the risk of counters/kill.
Were the Titans too good? Yeah, probably, but hopefully Wizards will print powerful, but not omnipresent replacements for them in M13. Fat needs to be good to be played, or anything six drop or higher will be relegated to trade binders and EDH decks.
Counters NEEDED nerfing though, that's the thing. If you don't nerf them, there's no reason to play creatures. Control wins everything unless you play some hyper-aggressive aggro deck. Mid-range strategies just die.
If Control JUST had counterspells its one thing, but when a draw-go deck can kill or counter most things an opponent plays, while drawing cards EoT if needed, that's not a fair fight.
ETB is one way around the Doom Blade problem, but Mana Leak and counterspells in general still blank big drops otherwise.
You either have to nerf your removal and counters, or buff your creatures. Wizards has decided to buff creatures. Time will tell if they pull back on that and decide to nerf removal instead, but I think there'd be open rebellion if something like Cancel became the standard over Mana Leak.
Absolutely a true lesson for most constructed events. Considerably less so for a format like multiplayer Commander where you can go from 25-30 life to zero without a whole lot of effort exerted on anyone's part.
That said, if I had Bob, there's decks I'd consider him in, but I generally prefer Phryexian Arena and the ilk since I tend to play in boardwipe happy games, where a Greaves on Bob means roughly diddly-poo.
Topdecked RI guarantees you nothing if the table's hands are empty. If you're playing against a blue deck(s), though, the RI is probably easily more cards.
Of course, you can get into the red zone with CS, which at 4 flying power can be very relevant with equips and what have you too.