If Doran becomes to tough to beat I would consider Deathtouches in the Sideboard. They answer a lot of other cards too. Against pro-black guys I would say Rune Snag and Cryptic Command, they really do help. Of course answering those threats with counterspells does let in Garruk easier.
Does this deck have any hope at GP? I've played it and it seems to roll to dredge and Doran, which are huge contendors right now. Any thoughts on this?
Here is the base of the deck I am using. It still needs testing but idyllic tutor, possibly summoner's pact, seige gang commander, Seething Pathblazer, Garagadon, Mogg fanatic and some creature control could be a good fit. Basically you have a few combos:
LD Bash them (Saffi+Riders, in conjunction with acid-moss and dying/bouncing reveillarks landlocks them)
Pandemonium + Grinning Ingus/Whitemane Lion, as many burn spells as you need. great against creature lite decks.
Wild Pair + Grinning Ignus/Whitemane Lion - fetch out all your LD and then some siege gangs and even a saffi to pull off:
saffi + pandemonium + reveillark. I don't get this often, but it is a game winning shocker for the opponent when it hits the table.
Playing the deck so far:
Turn two Wall of Roots into Riders or Moss (and usually consecutive turns in a row) spells death for mana heavy decks or decks that need to hit their land drops. Turn 2 wall into turn 3 acid-moss into turn 4 saffi+riders is backbreaking (sac sffi to riders with echo trigger on the stack, then don't pay the echo).
Use Wall of Roots and even Ignus to accelerate into wild pairs (ignus turn 3 yields turn 4 pair). When Wild Pair is in play a lot of creatures can get the combo going. Wall of Roots followed by adding a -0/-1 counter in response to the wild pair trigger will get ignus, from there bounce it for R, recast it, repeat as many times as you can. Also, neither Ignus's ability or Wall of Roots ability can be Pithing Needled, they are both mana abilites.
Against slower decks or decks that lack removal you may want try for turn 3 ignus, turn 4 pandemonium (LOL, Doran!), turn 5 10 damage. Turn 5 siege Gang is probably very nice as well.
The combo, for those of you who still don't get it is this: Pandemonium in play,Saffi in play, Play Reveillark in hand. Play Reveillark (targetting itself), respond by saccing Saffi to the Reveillark, both die, both come back, Saffi hits opponent for 2, Reveillark hits self again, sac Saffi to Reveillark....repeat till opponent dead.
Whiteman lion is an ingus #3, in case they get removed. it also bounces riders and reveillarks.
I think the deck has a good chance because it is not a 4-5 card combo, it is very mutable, and can also just play off well against control with LD and aggro. It can fetch tools in the sidebaord of you run wishes, and I am sure there is even a control variant somewhere.
Loxodon warhammer. No matter how many mannequin builds do not have it currently. It is really good against random crap people put out there because of how fast it can change the game.
Agreed. In most matchups I drop the Hammer and the opponent starts playing on the defense. Against aggro decks with burn they will throw burn away on ironfoots and such instead of you, trying desperately to win the battle of resources. In this deck we should all know that is only done with a lot of luck. I usually board it out in matches where your board position is the most important (control decks mainly, but just about anything that will have a tough time handling 1-2 creatures on the board).
My experience with Rune Snag is that most of the time it is only good if you start the play and not on the draw + depending that you draw this within your first 8 cards. I'd rather have more Profane Commands MD and maybe if you need even more removals against creatures add a 3rd/4th Damnation which permanently removes creatures as well only giving you card advantage at the same time.
Against control, wouldn't it be better to have an actual threat rather than a counter spell? Game one might be hard on us but game two if you side in 4 Thoughtseize and a couple of Mournwhelks the game gets better on your side. Specially if you can manage to resolve a Loxodon Warhammer.
But of course, I can't argue if Rune Snag is working for you, you have proved that it works in your meta-game and won. Congratulations. Games I've won with this decks i because of it's tempo and card-advantage. I've lost when I don't have enough removals (or good enough removals (Shriekmaw on black for example))
Also, Is Sudden Death in your SB necessary seeing you're using 4 copies of Mouth of Ronom already?
On a different topic:
Reveillark - :4mana::symw:?
Creature Elemental
Flying
When ~this~ leaves play, return up to two target creatures with power 2 or less from your graveyard to play.
Evoke :5mana::symw:?
4/3
Would this be a decent card to warrant a splash? I mean, 4/3 Flying fits our bill and its ability is just crazy (would of course be better if it was CiP instead of LP)
Against the control player I would use Rune snags to win counter wars early on. My board brings 4 thoughtsieze and 3 augur of skulls (comes down way earlier than whelk, also good in mbc matchup). The reason I ran 4 Sudden Death is in case I came across the U/G Shifter deck I lost to the week prior. Mouths were good there, but often too slow or not enough removal. They also hit Teferis and I can use them as extra removal if I face a deck where I would not want to use bounce.
Revellairk seems more suited for U/W blink, which btw got some really good cards from Morningtide, it will probably be on the rise, and could be something to plan for. They could dodge a lot of our tricks by blinking guys out.
My matchups were Elves, B/G Rock, U/B Reanimtor and R/G Gargadon aggro
Elves is a cake walk.
B/G Rock can be hard sometimes, but it is way easier post-board, siding in 2 Needles (Treetop Village, Garruk) for Profane Commands.
U/B Reanimator is pretty easy. just counter or bounce the fatties, kill the enablers. Game 2:-1 Warhammer, -3 Epochrasite, -1 Shadowmage, -2 Profane Command, +4 Thoughtsieze, +3 Pithing Needle. Needle names discard enablers, thoutseize gets reannimation cards, and the matchup is just ridiculously good for you.
R/G Gargadon is a close game. Game 2 Needles, Ironfoot and Hammer exchange with Finkel and 1 Profane Command. Game 3 sees a first turn Gargadon (for the third time) which is matched by my first turn needle. The rest of the game is a formality.
MVP: Rune Snag.
Every time I drew this card it always had a use. I never wished it was a creature. Last tournament I played I got killed by blue control, I originally put this in to improve this matchup (aggro matchups are so good anyways) but it performed very well despite not actually playing any blue control decks. That extra counter gives the deck a much better early-midgame which is great when facing up against aggro decks infamous 2-drops (goyf, wren run's vanquisher, keldon marauders, etc.) When you play ironfoots (or similar) you stop a creature per turn, but rune snag can stop a creature indefinitely. It hots other cards and isn't susceptible to removal like ironfoot is.
Seriously...pandemonium+reveillark+saffi
(Pandemonium in play, Saffi in play)
1. Play Reveillark
2. Use the 4 damage to target itself
3. In response to that sacrifice Saffi, targetting Reveillark (Saffi is now in the yard)
4. Reveillark dies, bringing Saffi back, then Reveillark also comes back
5. Saffi punches the opponent for 2, repeat steps 2-5 as much as needed.
Also there is a tutor for enchantments:
Idyllic Tutor 2W
Sorcery
Search your library for an Enchantment card, reveal it, then put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
What is the best strategy against counter decks. Currently I take out my profane commands and damnations for four thoughtsieze and 3 augur of skulls. I still lose. They usually end up countering my stuff till guile hits and then I lose. Any ideas on how to improve the matchup? It even applies to midrange blue control decks that run creatures and 8-12 counters.
Well, it's good, especially in limited, but overall underwhelming. White has been getting the short end of the stick for the last while, and a unique, yet playable card like this does help to redeem itself.
I have been using mindstone recently, and frankly I don't like it. In theory you get your 4 and 5 drops much quicker, but in reality I found that I was just throwing a turn away to get twice as much stuff next turn. On turn two you can use riftwing or epochrasite or shriekmaw. From there turn three has finkel, mulldrifter, ironfoot, or a 2 -drop and faerie conclave. I found using the mindstones on turn two usually only let me put use two 2-drops or just a three drop (and a faerie conclave, or just waste the 4th mana). My list runs only 1 Venser, so maybe with three vensers I could see the potential advantage in getting him out early. Also, freeing up thse extra spots for things like profane command were especially useful as I found I always wanted extra removal in the deck.
As for the mirror, siding out riftwing is probably a good idea, as it probably won't help you out by bouncing shriekmaws or mulldrifters etc. I would probably side in Sudden Death as an uncounterable removal spell. If you take out mulldrifters for augur of skulls or other discard you get to retain some CA and essentially nullify their shriekmaws for everything but venser. Venser could be sideboarded out for Masticores, as that card will pummel through every card in this deck shy of ironfoots (which you can just massacre in combat). The sudden death and augur of skulls are also good in matchups such as U/G Shifter and Mono U control.
I actually ran goyf in my build cause I couldn't get my hands on enough heirarchs, and they were ok. Because you are locking down the opposing deck SO much, very little ever gets dumped in the graveyard, he was usually a 3/4 for me. Not bad, but the lifelink/gain life from angel and heirarch is very important in this deck's worse matchups.
By the looks of that list you have a very combo or control heavy metagame? I have found the glowriders to be almost worthless in the aggro matchups and usually side them out for ghostly prison. Gaddock I also found terrible in these matchups. I find these aggro decks (BDW, RDW, Goblins, 5 color aggro) to be the hardest matchups as they are not affected to much by a lot of the cards in the deck. Glowrider, Gaddock, Thorn were usless to me in these matchups. If I managed to get an early root maze I was usually ok. The biggest trouble was the burns spells that just chipped away. I am going to sideboard chalice of the void to stop this (i.e tribal flames, and lightning helix). In addition to that (and set at x=2) it also stops cards like Piledriver, goyf, bob, jotun grunt, watchwolf, and various other cards in these types of matchups.
So yes, aggro matchups are the hardest, if you have a lot in your metagame, don't play this deck, it is way too hard to do.
Aven Mindcensor hinders fetchlands, trinket mage, enduring ideal, gifts. Basically every deck runs fetches and control decks will run lots of tutors, enduring ideal is really just a bonus.
Bonus: I played a game recently that was against 4 color aggro (I was on the play):
I think like 28+ creatures in the deck would be a lot better. otherwise you could get screwed. And Dryad Arbor seems a good fit for this deck. Twisted Abomination may be good as well. Just for kicks you could throw in a couple makeshift mannequin and some kind of fatty. Vedalken Æthermage can also tutor up magus and Wydwen, and add to the graveyard count. You should probably run some kind of sacrifice outlet as well
Anyways....
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Revellairk
4 Avalanche Riders
2 Grinning Ignus
1 Whitemane Lion
2 Wild Pair
3 Glittering Wish
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
2 Glittering Wish
LD Bash them (Saffi+Riders, in conjunction with acid-moss and dying/bouncing reveillarks landlocks them)
Pandemonium + Grinning Ingus/Whitemane Lion, as many burn spells as you need. great against creature lite decks.
Wild Pair + Grinning Ignus/Whitemane Lion - fetch out all your LD and then some siege gangs and even a saffi to pull off:
saffi + pandemonium + reveillark. I don't get this often, but it is a game winning shocker for the opponent when it hits the table.
Playing the deck so far:
Turn two Wall of Roots into Riders or Moss (and usually consecutive turns in a row) spells death for mana heavy decks or decks that need to hit their land drops. Turn 2 wall into turn 3 acid-moss into turn 4 saffi+riders is backbreaking (sac sffi to riders with echo trigger on the stack, then don't pay the echo).
Use Wall of Roots and even Ignus to accelerate into wild pairs (ignus turn 3 yields turn 4 pair). When Wild Pair is in play a lot of creatures can get the combo going. Wall of Roots followed by adding a -0/-1 counter in response to the wild pair trigger will get ignus, from there bounce it for R, recast it, repeat as many times as you can. Also, neither Ignus's ability or Wall of Roots ability can be Pithing Needled, they are both mana abilites.
Against slower decks or decks that lack removal you may want try for turn 3 ignus, turn 4 pandemonium (LOL, Doran!), turn 5 10 damage. Turn 5 siege Gang is probably very nice as well.
The combo, for those of you who still don't get it is this: Pandemonium in play,Saffi in play, Play Reveillark in hand. Play Reveillark (targetting itself), respond by saccing Saffi to the Reveillark, both die, both come back, Saffi hits opponent for 2, Reveillark hits self again, sac Saffi to Reveillark....repeat till opponent dead.
Whiteman lion is an ingus #3, in case they get removed. it also bounces riders and reveillarks.
Other things that could be added to the deck are Primal forcemages, to get Bogardan Hellkites.
Because this is a damage based combo you can probably run Grove of the Burnwillows safely, and even Fiery Justice for creature control (which is fetchable with glittering wish)
I think the deck has a good chance because it is not a 4-5 card combo, it is very mutable, and can also just play off well against control with LD and aggro. It can fetch tools in the sidebaord of you run wishes, and I am sure there is even a control variant somewhere.
So, thoughts, ideas, opinions?
Agreed. In most matchups I drop the Hammer and the opponent starts playing on the defense. Against aggro decks with burn they will throw burn away on ironfoots and such instead of you, trying desperately to win the battle of resources. In this deck we should all know that is only done with a lot of luck. I usually board it out in matches where your board position is the most important (control decks mainly, but just about anything that will have a tough time handling 1-2 creatures on the board).
Against the control player I would use Rune snags to win counter wars early on. My board brings 4 thoughtsieze and 3 augur of skulls (comes down way earlier than whelk, also good in mbc matchup). The reason I ran 4 Sudden Death is in case I came across the U/G Shifter deck I lost to the week prior. Mouths were good there, but often too slow or not enough removal. They also hit Teferis and I can use them as extra removal if I face a deck where I would not want to use bounce.
Revellairk seems more suited for U/W blink, which btw got some really good cards from Morningtide, it will probably be on the rise, and could be something to plan for. They could dodge a lot of our tricks by blinking guys out.
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mouth of Ronom
4 River of Tears
2 Underground River
6 Snow-Covered Island
4 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Creatures
4 Riftwing Cloudskate
4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Shriekmaw
1 Venser
3 Epochrasite
4 Mulldrifter
1 Loxodon Warhammer
4 Rune Snag
3 Damnation
2 Cryptic Command
2 Profane Command
4 Makeshift Mannequin
3 Pithing Needles
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Augur of Skulls
3 Sudden Death
1 Loxodon Warhammer
1 Phyrexian Ironfoot
My matchups were Elves, B/G Rock, U/B Reanimtor and R/G Gargadon aggro
Elves is a cake walk.
B/G Rock can be hard sometimes, but it is way easier post-board, siding in 2 Needles (Treetop Village, Garruk) for Profane Commands.
U/B Reanimator is pretty easy. just counter or bounce the fatties, kill the enablers. Game 2:-1 Warhammer, -3 Epochrasite, -1 Shadowmage, -2 Profane Command, +4 Thoughtsieze, +3 Pithing Needle. Needle names discard enablers, thoutseize gets reannimation cards, and the matchup is just ridiculously good for you.
R/G Gargadon is a close game. Game 2 Needles, Ironfoot and Hammer exchange with Finkel and 1 Profane Command. Game 3 sees a first turn Gargadon (for the third time) which is matched by my first turn needle. The rest of the game is a formality.
MVP: Rune Snag.
Every time I drew this card it always had a use. I never wished it was a creature. Last tournament I played I got killed by blue control, I originally put this in to improve this matchup (aggro matchups are so good anyways) but it performed very well despite not actually playing any blue control decks. That extra counter gives the deck a much better early-midgame which is great when facing up against aggro decks infamous 2-drops (goyf, wren run's vanquisher, keldon marauders, etc.) When you play ironfoots (or similar) you stop a creature per turn, but rune snag can stop a creature indefinitely. It hots other cards and isn't susceptible to removal like ironfoot is.
(Pandemonium in play, Saffi in play)
1. Play Reveillark
2. Use the 4 damage to target itself
3. In response to that sacrifice Saffi, targetting Reveillark (Saffi is now in the yard)
4. Reveillark dies, bringing Saffi back, then Reveillark also comes back
5. Saffi punches the opponent for 2, repeat steps 2-5 as much as needed.
Also there is a tutor for enchantments:
Idyllic Tutor 2W
Sorcery
Search your library for an Enchantment card, reveal it, then put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
so an ideal play would be something like this:
Turn 2: Saffi
Turn 3: Tutor
Turn 4: Pandemonium
Turn 5: Win
EDIT: Oh yah Cream of the Crop also works nicely here.
As for the mirror, siding out riftwing is probably a good idea, as it probably won't help you out by bouncing shriekmaws or mulldrifters etc. I would probably side in Sudden Death as an uncounterable removal spell. If you take out mulldrifters for augur of skulls or other discard you get to retain some CA and essentially nullify their shriekmaws for everything but venser. Venser could be sideboarded out for Masticores, as that card will pummel through every card in this deck shy of ironfoots (which you can just massacre in combat). The sudden death and augur of skulls are also good in matchups such as U/G Shifter and Mono U control.
I actually ran goyf in my build cause I couldn't get my hands on enough heirarchs, and they were ok. Because you are locking down the opposing deck SO much, very little ever gets dumped in the graveyard, he was usually a 3/4 for me. Not bad, but the lifelink/gain life from angel and heirarch is very important in this deck's worse matchups.
By the looks of that list you have a very combo or control heavy metagame? I have found the glowriders to be almost worthless in the aggro matchups and usually side them out for ghostly prison. Gaddock I also found terrible in these matchups. I find these aggro decks (BDW, RDW, Goblins, 5 color aggro) to be the hardest matchups as they are not affected to much by a lot of the cards in the deck. Glowrider, Gaddock, Thorn were usless to me in these matchups. If I managed to get an early root maze I was usually ok. The biggest trouble was the burns spells that just chipped away. I am going to sideboard chalice of the void to stop this (i.e tribal flames, and lightning helix). In addition to that (and set at x=2) it also stops cards like Piledriver, goyf, bob, jotun grunt, watchwolf, and various other cards in these types of matchups.
So yes, aggro matchups are the hardest, if you have a lot in your metagame, don't play this deck, it is way too hard to do.
Aven Mindcensor hinders fetchlands, trinket mage, enduring ideal, gifts. Basically every deck runs fetches and control decks will run lots of tutors, enduring ideal is really just a bonus.
Bonus: I played a game recently that was against 4 color aggro (I was on the play):
T1: Root Maze
T2: BoP
T3: Suppression Field, Llanowar Elves
T4: Aven Mindcensor
T5: Heirach
He conceded after tapping out to fetch a land and getting nothing on the top four.