Ta da...sprinkle in some utility/removal and some lands and you have a deck.
The U/B or U/W version seems a lot easier tho, as it is essentially a two card combo. Get Reveillark into grave, Body Double In play via mannequin or whatever. There are several sac outlets and graveyard targets to choose from. You can technically just go mono black with Oona's Prowler and reanimation, with no actual casting of anything blue or white.
im new to this forum and i was thinking if it would be better to run festercreep in the sideboard to deal with rogues and faeries, since many tend to have toughness to help wipe off many while also having a viable two drop when shriekmaw cannot target a black creature
Actually that seems pretty good, it deserves some testing. If you get lucky you'll get it off on turn 3. If you wanna play it safe, do it turn four. If you do that you'd be better with damnation. You also waste a mana on turn 3 to activate turn 2. I'm not sure how easily faeries can counter or remove this guy, but definitely a good consideration.
I am kind of hating Ghostly Prison in this deck. I can never stop all the creatures from attacking, they usually pick their biggest guy and swing in. Has anyone tried moment's peace. Seems like with all the aggro in the format right now it could be a double time walk. thoughts?
Without Rune Snag you get hosed by specific cards. They may not be cards in the teir one decks, but they are out there. Things like Bogardan Hellkite, Cloudthresher, Garruk (hey look at that, R/G Mana Ramp, a big contender run those), Akroma, etc. There are no easy answers for in bounce and sorcery speed removal. Hellkite kills 1/2 your stuff, Cloudthresher kills your stuff, Garruk is a horrible card to bounce because they usually tend to get a Call of the Herd w/flashback out of it. Akroma, or pretty much anything pro black forces bounce and damnation. This deck is powerful but without the ability to stop things before they hit first, you will probably be playing catch up, and that requires cards, which you want to save, not blow out in one turn just to pull yourself out of the fire.
Cards that you don't want to see hit the table:
Scion of Oona
Garruk
Pro-Black creatures (Akroma, Mystic Enforcer to name the worst)
Cloudthresher
Bogardan Hellkite
Siege-Gang Commander
Opposing "Blaze Effects" (Disintegrate, Profane Command, Molten Disaster (w/o kicker(they may not expect counters, or are forced to use it early, without split second mana)))
Most things in the Mirror Match (Ironfoot, Shriekmaw, etc.)
Rune Snag isn't just restricted to these things either, which is why it is so great in this deck. The deck is a toolbox of answers, and Rune Snag is a monkey wrench:D
But most generally (If you use Mindstone) it helps when played turn 2, to excel into a turn 3 Damntion or Venser. Which is very help against certain decks:
Damnation for Rock, Doran, Elfs.
Venser for D-Storm, Doran.
If you had just played rune snag a turn two or three counter stops all the threatening plays they have, like Doran, Garruk, Vanquisher, Viper, Troll, Hammer. As for D-Storm I can't say, never played against it.
Quote from D3@D »
Problem is that if you are cutting lands to add Mind Stones, you will often find that you lack the 4th land/mana to play that damnation. At least that's what happened to me when I tested Mind Stones. I kept a hand with 2 land, 1 Stone, and couldn't find the 3rd land before turn 4-5.. which is even worse than just playing land those first 3 turns, at least you don't have to use more mana to play mana.
I used 24 lands + 3 Stones. Maybe 25 Lands + 3 stones would have been better. But I discarded Mind Stones due to the fact that it is arguing with my prefered turn 2 drops. (Cloudskates, Rune Snag, Shriekmaw and if in the deck Epoc) Which imo. serves the same thing as turn 3 Damnation. They save you a turn or more. giving you time to find Damnation or forcing your opponent to over-extend or whatever)
I felt the same way with mindstones. Unfortunately you can't just cut lands, I was only able to cut 1 land, and pf course, as it turns out I get Mindstones or land more often in the late game when I don't need it. Mind stone doesn't do what this deck needs to do, which is keep on it's heels. Land flood negates the entire point of playing a card advantage engine. Consider how many decks drop birds/elves and accelerate into things you can't deal with, or if you do it requires things like damnation turn 4 (not the BEST play in most cases) or chaining up shriekmaws so that you can't use them later for attacking.
Quote from thefreakaccident »
So, is this currently the best deck in standard right now?
I am just curious, as I usually do not play standard and just buy a deck and play once the season pickes up and I have to prepare for Ptqs, GPs, etc...
I rather enjoy the mechanic that is here, and it seems promising... but it looks a little slow in what it would like to do (Gain CA, kill the opponent)... is this intentional?
What is the best deck currently, if you guys had to pick one... this one doesn't seem to boast too many great finishes, but neither do the others...
There is no 'best deck' (but let's not get into that). This is an extremely potent deck though. It churns out lots of card advantage, early, mid and lategame (which differs from most MUC decks and the like who have to 1-for-1 in the opening of the game). It has lots of evasion, which means most of your creatures get through when they need to. It has lots of outs and is highly mutable (you can tune it for an aggro or control, or even combo heavy meta (but not as well for combo)) It sufficiently handles things with sideboard cards that the maindeck cards can't. It deals with enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers (with or without combat) which most decks can't say for themselves right now. The curve works extremely well due to the evokers and sideboard cards games 2 and 3. The commands also give you extra utility. You can easily slip in a few one-ofs due to the consistent card drawing, which again helps you tool and diversify the deck. It also has a solid two color mana base, which D-Storm, Doran, and to some extent elves (very little B needed, whereas mannequin is nearly 50/50 split). Just some points to consider.
Teferi seems very odd in there. If your meta is control then he is great on the board, but he will get countered too often. and if your meta is control it begs the question: why ironfoots? they are meatsicks for aggro to sink cards into. For control the creature removal is too high, and the mournwhelks should prolly be augur of skulls (better vs MUC and MBC). Now if your meta is aggro here then the teferis stink, as does Needle. If your meta is combo however, this seems a lot more appropriate. Needle and Teferi make sense, as do trickbind and sieze (although I would lower trickbinds and up thoughtsiezes). Same advice on Mournwhelk, he is too slow. If your meta is combo I would suggest Rune Snags as well. Hopefully I gave a good breakdown on how those metagames would shape out your deck.critique away:D
Slithermuse - Against any deck that has more cards in hand than us this just won't resolve (i'm talking to you, MUC!)
Declaration of Naught - Triple U the turn you cast it is harsh. You won't name creatures as you have enough removal as it stands. It isn't very diverse, but neither is combo. SB possibility.
Mind Stone has proven to be necessary in testing. If you're in the mirror without it, you'll lose. Seriously.
As far as what to take out...Epochrasite. That card has long over-stayed its welcome in this deck. The only way I can see it being played is in a VERY heavy aggro environment (that is to say, EVERY MU is literally straight aggro). I also have dropped to 24 lands, and I've never missed my fourth mana for Damnation. And, for the record, I've done a TON of testing, as always.
I have played so many decks that cannot keep up in killing epochrasites, if you drop this against aggro you severely help your game. This deck has so many good matchups that Sideboarding it out seems better than the game crippling effect vs. aggro (which is very popular). I see him being alot more useful in mirrors for blocking fear guys than mindstones would be. The potential CA from epoch is much greater than a single mindstone.
I wasn't sure about mind stones at first, but after trying them, they seem necessary. You are almost never unhappy to draw them, and sometimes they are crucial to winning. Before running them, a lot of the time my game plan was just a turn too slow to win, but obviously mind stone just puts you ahead that one turn and then turns into gas when it's unnecessary.
I don't see how they would put you a turn ahead. You essentially have to invest a turn into it or sink a mana into it between turns 3-6 (after that does the one card/mana REALLY do you that much help?) which disrupts your curve pretty significantly. Turn 2 Stone could be spent on some action spell, turn 3 you won't be able to cast Finkel, or Ironfoot, and I don't see the need to accelerate into anything but Venser. Turn 4 casting it will shut you out Cryptic command, mannequin and damnation. Turn 5 seems better as you get to play everything I just mentioned, but then why isn't shriekmaw coming down (or being mannequinned?)? Maybe I am totally wrong here, but it seems to slow you down by a turn in most situations. You effectively get better control of your mana/curve with stones, but in the early turns (and invariably very crucial turns for this deck) you would only be dropping finkels, ironfoots or evoking mulldrifters. Those early turns (IMO) should be spent establishing board control or protecting your life. Not only that, you get 4 extra spells that would make more of an impact on the game if you cut out the stones. IMO turn 2 and turn 5 are the most crucial turns for this deck.
I would agree on mindstone being unnecessary. We have plenty of turn two plays (Shriekmaw, Riftwing, Epoch, Rune Snag...) The deck has a pretty nice curve will all the alternate costs, and the ability of being able to play less cards in a turn to handle more threats through card advantage. And really, do you really need the stone for card advantage anyways? You have Shriekmaw, Profane, Cryptic, Epoch, Finkel, Mulldrifter and Damnations. Even if you don't have the rares in that list, you are still wasting time, turns and mana on a mind stone.
I bought a box with another person, in total we had 5 thoughtsieze. As a bonus we also had 3 doran, 5 Garruk, 2 Teeg, 3 Cryptic Command, 4 Profane Command.
Mana Tithe - this is the mvp of the deck. this deck is very tempo oriented. they will be forced to tap out to play anything all durring phase one of the game therefore this acts as a hard counter and allows you to get farther ahead.
Tarmogoyf - this slot is debatable. this deck puts very few cards into the graveyard so depending upon the match-up the goyf is hit or miss. it is a good choice against other decks with mr.goyf , however i think that a sideboard slot should be freed up for another creature to side in for him.
Gaddock Teeg - the reason i choose to run 4 of this legend is that he trumps the end game of so many decks that i feel even if you end up with an extra in your hand waiting for the first to die it is not a bad thing .
i think all of the other choices are rather logical but i would like to hear what anyone else thinks.
Mana Tithe looks really bad when you have glowriders in play. Other than that it looks like a not bad list. I think you are a little low on threats though.
Can Body Double replicate a Reveillark in the graveyard and then, if sacrificed somehow (i.e. nantuko husk), bring itself back into play by using the leave play ability? That seems like it's a no go ability as you wouldn't be able to target itself. How does the whole thing work step by step?
Per the rulings forum rules, questions on cards from new sets need to go to the New Card Rulings forum until official wordings are in Gatherer.--Binary
Can't they just respond to your charm with whatever removal they just fetched to kill maralen? Seems like you would have to have Teferi in play to lock them. Okay, granted you can wait till turn 5 or something to cast her, then protect her with a counterspell (unless they had removal in hand already). It becomes a battle of life loss, and since they lost it first ad you can beat down a little you would win. I think that after they have fetched removal you could pretty much just name that on a Declaration of Naught, and then just chain up 3 more removal spells in their deck by fetching 3 more declarations.
EDIT: And actually that seems pretty nice after some thought. Thoughtsieze/Stupor to check their removal cards and then make em discard. Later once You have Maralen out just fetch out Declaration, and voila you already know what to name.
I'm not so sure about dredge, they pack ray of revelation, chain of vapour, and I can only imagine a lot more to stop one of the best cards against them. If they play a vapour EOT, you are kinda screwed are you not?
EDIT: Also, how have you found Thorn of Amethyst and/or Glowriders in your builds?
I went 3-2-1 and had to leave after Round 6 because of work issues, but I believe the deck performed very well.
Round 1 I played against a standard Tog deck with a CounterTop engine. The Suppression Fields and Mindsensors were the nuts in this matchup. I won 2-1.
Round 2 I played against a "former" pro and went 1-1 draw because of his slow play and Vedalken Shackles. I didn't get the win so I couldn't collect the booster pack bounty. He played a similar build to the first round TOG deck but used the Shackles in it's place. A little direct damage and more counters and he won game 1. I got in position to win game 2 and even though it dragged on, I was able to pull out the win after time was called on turn 2.
Round 3 I played a Doran deck but it wasn't very good. He never resolved a Doran and I just ran him over with flyers and turn 4 Angel both game. 2-0
Round 4 I saw my first Affinity deck and couldn't draw into a Living Wish either game for Kataki. I sided in the Aura of Silence game 2 and never saw it either. It was really unfortunate and I went 0-2 in that one. Root maze slowed him down and the Trinisphere got back in both games but Plating killed me. He had some god draws as well.
Round 5 I was beated down in 3 games against mono blue Guile with Vedalken Shackle again. The Shackles are proving to be huge in this format. Along with Threads of Disloyalty against the Avens.
I'm thinking about taking out the Worships and the Windborn in the side and putting in some Chokes. Blue is my biggest problem right now. I think choke on top of Root Maze is game over for the blue mage.
Round 6 I went up against what I thought was Enduring Ideal but only saw Balancing Act in game 2, so I suppose it was BalancingTings. Game one was a turn 3 Living Wish into Gaddock Teeg...essentially game over. And Game 3 went the same way. He beat me out game 2 because i never saw Living Wish. I sided in Leyline both games against this deck and saw it opening hand both times. That was a nice card....I saw lots of Dredge floating around. 2-1
There was an Ideal deck at the top table in round 5. He was beat down by Goyf.
I didn't see any other GW NoobStax deck in the place over the weekend. Many people wanted to play but "just didn't have the cards yet". I'm going to play it again next month with the tweaks I mentioned in the sideboard. I guess that I need a way to slow down Affinity in there as well......we'll see what I can find.
First of all I love that list. I played mine last week and got toasted, it was way too redundant. And yah, I definitely wished I had Ghostly prisons maindecked.
Did you feel you had enough threats? A lot of the times I felt like I was just drawing into extra suppresion fields/root mazes and nothing else. I imagine the triple living wish must help with that. Also, how is your matchup vs. dredge? I played against one recently and although I locked him down for a while (I even had two crypts in the opener) he managed to recur an akroma and beat me down ftw. Is that what worships were in there for?
3 Saffi Eriksdotter
4 Revellairk
4 Avalanche Riders
2 Grinning Ingus
1 Whitemane Lion
3 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Wild Pair
3 Idyllic Tutor
3 Glittering Wish
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
The U/B or U/W version seems a lot easier tho, as it is essentially a two card combo. Get Reveillark into grave, Body Double In play via mannequin or whatever. There are several sac outlets and graveyard targets to choose from. You can technically just go mono black with Oona's Prowler and reanimation, with no actual casting of anything blue or white.
Edit: Extended - Lethal Vapors
Actually that seems pretty good, it deserves some testing. If you get lucky you'll get it off on turn 3. If you wanna play it safe, do it turn four. If you do that you'd be better with damnation. You also waste a mana on turn 3 to activate turn 2. I'm not sure how easily faeries can counter or remove this guy, but definitely a good consideration.
Cards that you don't want to see hit the table:
Scion of Oona
Garruk
Pro-Black creatures (Akroma, Mystic Enforcer to name the worst)
Cloudthresher
Bogardan Hellkite
Siege-Gang Commander
Opposing "Blaze Effects" (Disintegrate, Profane Command, Molten Disaster (w/o kicker(they may not expect counters, or are forced to use it early, without split second mana)))
Most things in the Mirror Match (Ironfoot, Shriekmaw, etc.)
Rune Snag isn't just restricted to these things either, which is why it is so great in this deck. The deck is a toolbox of answers, and Rune Snag is a monkey wrench:D
If you had just played rune snag a turn two or three counter stops all the threatening plays they have, like Doran, Garruk, Vanquisher, Viper, Troll, Hammer. As for D-Storm I can't say, never played against it.
I felt the same way with mindstones. Unfortunately you can't just cut lands, I was only able to cut 1 land, and pf course, as it turns out I get Mindstones or land more often in the late game when I don't need it. Mind stone doesn't do what this deck needs to do, which is keep on it's heels. Land flood negates the entire point of playing a card advantage engine. Consider how many decks drop birds/elves and accelerate into things you can't deal with, or if you do it requires things like damnation turn 4 (not the BEST play in most cases) or chaining up shriekmaws so that you can't use them later for attacking.
There is no 'best deck' (but let's not get into that). This is an extremely potent deck though. It churns out lots of card advantage, early, mid and lategame (which differs from most MUC decks and the like who have to 1-for-1 in the opening of the game). It has lots of evasion, which means most of your creatures get through when they need to. It has lots of outs and is highly mutable (you can tune it for an aggro or control, or even combo heavy meta (but not as well for combo)) It sufficiently handles things with sideboard cards that the maindeck cards can't. It deals with enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers (with or without combat) which most decks can't say for themselves right now. The curve works extremely well due to the evokers and sideboard cards games 2 and 3. The commands also give you extra utility. You can easily slip in a few one-ofs due to the consistent card drawing, which again helps you tool and diversify the deck. It also has a solid two color mana base, which D-Storm, Doran, and to some extent elves (very little B needed, whereas mannequin is nearly 50/50 split). Just some points to consider.
Teferi seems very odd in there. If your meta is control then he is great on the board, but he will get countered too often. and if your meta is control it begs the question: why ironfoots? they are meatsicks for aggro to sink cards into. For control the creature removal is too high, and the mournwhelks should prolly be augur of skulls (better vs MUC and MBC). Now if your meta is aggro here then the teferis stink, as does Needle. If your meta is combo however, this seems a lot more appropriate. Needle and Teferi make sense, as do trickbind and sieze (although I would lower trickbinds and up thoughtsiezes). Same advice on Mournwhelk, he is too slow. If your meta is combo I would suggest Rune Snags as well. Hopefully I gave a good breakdown on how those metagames would shape out your deck.critique away:D
Ditto in color and curve, and seriously, he has no evasion. We have better creatures than that. Kithkin, you can have this one.
Slithermuse - Against any deck that has more cards in hand than us this just won't resolve (i'm talking to you, MUC!)
Declaration of Naught - Triple U the turn you cast it is harsh. You won't name creatures as you have enough removal as it stands. It isn't very diverse, but neither is combo. SB possibility.
I have played so many decks that cannot keep up in killing epochrasites, if you drop this against aggro you severely help your game. This deck has so many good matchups that Sideboarding it out seems better than the game crippling effect vs. aggro (which is very popular). I see him being alot more useful in mirrors for blocking fear guys than mindstones would be. The potential CA from epoch is much greater than a single mindstone.
I don't see how they would put you a turn ahead. You essentially have to invest a turn into it or sink a mana into it between turns 3-6 (after that does the one card/mana REALLY do you that much help?) which disrupts your curve pretty significantly. Turn 2 Stone could be spent on some action spell, turn 3 you won't be able to cast Finkel, or Ironfoot, and I don't see the need to accelerate into anything but Venser. Turn 4 casting it will shut you out Cryptic command, mannequin and damnation. Turn 5 seems better as you get to play everything I just mentioned, but then why isn't shriekmaw coming down (or being mannequinned?)? Maybe I am totally wrong here, but it seems to slow you down by a turn in most situations. You effectively get better control of your mana/curve with stones, but in the early turns (and invariably very crucial turns for this deck) you would only be dropping finkels, ironfoots or evoking mulldrifters. Those early turns (IMO) should be spent establishing board control or protecting your life. Not only that, you get 4 extra spells that would make more of an impact on the game if you cut out the stones. IMO turn 2 and turn 5 are the most crucial turns for this deck.
Mana Tithe looks really bad when you have glowriders in play. Other than that it looks like a not bad list. I think you are a little low on threats though.
Has anyone tried Sterling Grove?
Per the rulings forum rules, questions on cards from new sets need to go to the New Card Rulings forum until official wordings are in Gatherer.--Binary
EDIT: And actually that seems pretty nice after some thought. Thoughtsieze/Stupor to check their removal cards and then make em discard. Later once You have Maralen out just fetch out Declaration, and voila you already know what to name.
EDIT: Also, how have you found Thorn of Amethyst and/or Glowriders in your builds?
First of all I love that list. I played mine last week and got toasted, it was way too redundant. And yah, I definitely wished I had Ghostly prisons maindecked.
Did you feel you had enough threats? A lot of the times I felt like I was just drawing into extra suppresion fields/root mazes and nothing else. I imagine the triple living wish must help with that. Also, how is your matchup vs. dredge? I played against one recently and although I locked him down for a while (I even had two crypts in the opener) he managed to recur an akroma and beat me down ftw. Is that what worships were in there for?
huh? I am pretty sure that isn't legal.