1 landers do have some merit. If you can play out your whole hand (or most of it) off of one land, then I say do it, as drawing any extra land after that would just increase the explosiveness of that opener. Otherwise, you can still play Magic with that hand if you don't draw a land for awhile.
My big rule for mulligans is pretty simple: Does it make me excited to play Magic? If yes, keep it. If not, then mulligan.
I'm sending that back. Even though on the surface there is nothing wrong with it, I'm not excited to keep it. For one, it's far too slow, as it doesn't give me a reasonable enough clock to beat any fast deck. Two, it requires me to fetch + shock twice if I want to fix my colors and still be able to play the Searing Blaze. I'm just not feeling it.
I would gladly mulligan that away and probably keep something like this:
Now this hand isn't the greatest, but it's far better that the 7 card hand, even counting the fact that the Boros Charm in the 6 card head is currently dead, rendering this hand only 5 cards active. It has four 1 cost spells - two of which are aggressive creatures. There are things going on here and I like it.
I think it's pretty funny that I can log on here every other month or so and still see the same ole Cat and Command vs. Boros Burn argument in the most recent pages. I'm not trying to throw shade on anybody in particular here – it's just an observation. Obviously both versions of Burn play very similar to each other, each have certain advantages/weaknesses that the other does not, and they're both putting up respectable numbers where it counts; proof that Burn is still in a very good spot. As always, it pays to be proactive and that's exactly what each version is doing.
There is no wrong way to build a Burn deck as long as it's backed up with solid play, it would seem.
I do like this Path to Exile discussion though. It shows some free thinking. And there are some valid points. I have found that I prefer at least one in the deck (and the same goes with Deflecting Palm) since it does provide an important function – preventing the opponent from winning the game (although in the case of Palm, it can outright win the game). The drawback of this is that it's primarily a reactive card, and as strong as it can be when applied, it can be terrible in multiples when you absolutely need to close out a game. Of course, it can be metagame specific and when it counts, it is sometimes appropriate to pack multiples. A good example of this is if you're going to play in a smaller metagame that you know for sure will be filled with, say, Abzan Company.
The Kor Firewalker discussion is great too. I personally have been off of Kor Firewalker for sometime, as I generally only encounter it in the Burn mirror (or in some fringe cases, Jeskai). As much as I am loathe to admit, the majority of Burn players are not very good and with solid play, I can manuever around a Firewalker to still win the match. With that said, an experienced Burn player that can land a Firewalker on the play poses a huge threat, but the game is still far from unwinnable. I do believe that having a plan or hedge for the mirror is important, but I just don't believe Kor Firwalker is necessary anymore.
Burn's come a long way in the last three years. I remember when I was reading these very forums to try and find my first Modern deck, and the prevailing wisdom was that G.Guide was the only creature Burn wanted to run, because more often than not, it's four damage for one mana. I am glad that Modern Burn has taken a life of its own, rather than staying content to be Legacy Burn Lite.
You're absolutely right. Burn has evolved because, in order to compete in the Modern world, you have to play the most powerful cards. Some of these cards require splashes and some cards aren't even red at all, but it all fits and it works.
I remember when Boros Charm was brand new and I was loathe to start splashing in the main for it. But at the end of the day, a powerful card is a powerful card.
While it's true that Nacatl and friends turn on your opponents removal spells more frequently, you could just, I dunno, board them out against decks that matter.
Take Jund for example (a deck that can really wants to interact with you) - if you're on a Nacatl build, you just remove them for Skullcracks and stuff.
Hi everyone. New to modern, so I wanted to make sure I'm doing things right before annoying people...
I've got about 60% of a shell for a mono red Burn deck, but am a little budget limited for now. Would it be best to post my budget list here, along with my plans for a final, non-budget list, or should I be posting in the budget forums? I'd like opinions on both lists, and in what order to be swapping out stuff as and when budget allows.
I made this super quick on the fly to teach my girlfriend how to play Burn for the upcoming SCG Regionals. In no time she was burning my face off.
I'll give you the same advice I gave her:
- You auto lose to Leyline of Sanctity. Sorry, but those are the brakes.
- Just throw everything you can at the dome and be as aggressive as possible.
- Try to save a land to activate Searing Blaze's Landfall trigger whenever possible.
- Most people don't block the Elementals since they die anyway.
- Reality Hemorrhage will take care of Firewalkers, Forge-Tenders, Phyrexian Crusaders, and Etched Champions.
- Keldon Marauder's best ability is that it can block, thus saving you life.
- Shard Volley is best used as a finisher.
- Use Skullcracks and Flames of the Blood Hand to "counterspell" life gain.
- One of the deck's biggest strengths is that it takes no damage from its lands.
- Lead with your weakest or slowest spells first. (Ex: Spark Elemental, Rift Bolt, and Lava Spikes will get played before Lightning Bolt and Shard Volley)
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Edit:
The first things to start upgrading on would be the manabase (you can start adding fetchlands to enhance your Searing Blazes and also to splash colors) and your creatures. I recommend splashing Green when going to the next level, since you can now use Destructive Revelry and not fold to Leyline of Sanctity.
The deck above is just upgraded by a few hundred of dollars (many times more than what the original list is worth) and it's really up to you if it's worth it for you financially, as the deck is only improved slightly.
I lost all Game 3's to 3 different Cat Burn decks when I flooded out hard. Like, 6 consecutive lands and 5 business spells type crap. It was almost comedic how bad it was.
I can only assume it was on MTGO. Only on MTGO do I regularly get those sorts of draws. I've run the probabilities on them and it's in the fractions of the percent. Except I'll have it happen multiple times in a night. Perfectly random! Nothing to see here.
You'd be correct. I've also noticed how f'd the mulligans are too. For example, I'll draw a 7 card hand and send it back, only to get most of the exact same hand back (with most cards in the same positions). The worst time was when I mulliganed down to 3 and my Shard Volley was in the first card spot every time. I only run 1 Shard Volley!
I thought of it more as a SB card in the blue matchups; as a finisher for those situations in which the opponents already made enough landdrops (4 or more) and it becomes much harder to play around their counters. This could be against twin...or grixis maybe?
Perhaps this card is not even necessary since we seem to do just fine with path/rending volley? I don't know.
It makes sense to take out the helixes or skullcracks for them, though.
Khaospawn, how were you playing them? Main? Against what decks? What were you siding out?
I had 2 in the main for the 4 rounds I used it. Spoiler: I lost all four rounds. But it wasn't because of the Firecraft. I lost all Game 3's to 3 different Cat Burn decks when I flooded out hard. Like, 6 consecutive lands and 5 business spells type crap. It was almost comedic how bad it was. I also lost a Game 3 to a Merfolk deck, but I legit got beat there. Anyways, I was always happy whenever I saw it, barring when it was in my opener. It snuck by the couple of counterspells I saw against Merfolk and I was mainly using it to kill big things, like Spellskite (against 2 of the Burn decks and Merfolk....weird that I saw them facing Burn) and Cats. I never sided it out at all. I think that if you're committed to playing it main, it's there to stay unless you really want to lower your curve (like against a true Burn deck and not the Cat varieties. Uncounterability is a huge insurance policy against Snapcaster/counter decks.
@Khaospawn
Glad to hear that. I actually think that Jasper's list is very close to the perfect burn list for these times; some strange SB decisions though.
I took a very similar list to GP Copenhagen and did considerably well (6-3, no byes and lost in the last round of day 1). Two losses were against Affinity (very tight games). Still, I think that all games were very winnable and that this deck is getting better positioned again because the meta nowadays is so broad that people are packing less life gain than they used to.
Main Skullcrack over Lightning Helix: I think that Skullcrack is the better option because it circumvents Spellskite, is better against random lifelink/lifegain and puts less strain on your mana requirements. It also allows to spend the commands a bit more liberally to pump creatures in the first turns of the game to increase damage output. In games 2 and 3 it can always be exchanged for cards more suited to the match up.
Shard Volley: I'm a big proponent of this and not really sure that playing a Vexing Devil over one of them is the correct choice... In sooo many games have I already top decked a Shard Volley and was able to finish the game, when top decking a Vexing Devil would have meant a loss.
Generally I agree that we should be wary of playing too many creatures (like adding Wild Nacatl), even though we're playing with Atarka's Command because the window for our creatures to deal damage to the opponent is so narrow. Even without those additional critters we usually have a GG or Swifty on t1 to take advantage of the command, which to me already is enough. A higher creature count just dilutes the burn you'd like to top deck in turns 3 and 4.
The only card I'm not sure what to think of is Exquisite Firecraft. Has anyone tested it extensively...? 4 uncounterable damage seems so sweet, but 3 mana just seems huge. Three mana is the reason why I cut the Molten Rains; too often was I not able to cast them in the right moment.
As a matter of fact, I was playing with 2 Firecraft most of the night last night and loved it whenever it wasn't in my opener.
I remember, what was it, maybe a couple years ago now? There was a guy that placed in an open I believe that ran forked bolt with a lot of success but burn has really changed shape since then. I think it was around page 80 to 100 or so.
Man that brings back memories. He was running more aggro then burn though. It was also the Minneapolis GP. I based my first version of my mono red burn deck off of a couple of his choices like Shrine of Burning Rage.
Yeah, that was Nicholas Heal. I loved his deck. That thing could fight.
I was playing with Forked Bolt earlier tonight online and did badly. I switched over to Jasper's deck (different sideboard though) and have won 3 straight rounds straight, beating Bogles, Temur Twin, and Dredgevine.
Nevel is that your mana base for Burn deck with Lightning helix in place of firecraft or did you make that base for a deck to support firecraft?
Edit: Im curious because my list is 100% identical but i do 2 extra fetches in place of copperline and 2 helix in place of firecraft. Was wondering if 12 fetches is suboptimal compared to 2 gorges
How to make a manabase to support 1-3 Firecraft for beginners: play 20 lands.
Edit: Weird, I made my reply before you made your edit. And then the edit showed up in my quote.
(just one last post)
Found the deck tech by Jasper Johnson-Epstein here http://www.twitch.tv/magic2/v/15839098 (at 3:25:00; starts talking about the devil at 3:29:10)
He is basically saying:
-Deck has a lot of 2 mana spells; he needed more 1 mana spell
-Better than nacatl (4 > 3)
-Better against Goyf/Spellskite/Exarch (4 toughness)
-Only 1 because he doesn't want to draw too many
So it sounds like he doesn't want to run the devil, it's just his best option @ 1 cmc (that isn't already in the deck)
Now, Exquisite!
I've been running 1 in the main for a while and I've been loving it; both the 4 damage and it being uncounterable; will probably move up to two.
About Jasper, he typically runs 3 Lavamancer. In addition to his points, he also feels that the first devil is better than third Lava Man right now. I learned this when I did a podcast a couple weeks ago with his friend John Galli after I won the TCG 5K. John is close with Jasper and plays pretty much his 75. In fact, John top 8'd a large PPTQ with the same list. This was also discussed in the podcast.
Let's all shut up about Vexing Devil. Nobody is willing to accept the other side, even though some people are just wrong about it.
Let's talk about how many Exquisite Firecrafts we should run in the 75.
The Boros Burn list that had 2 in the main was something I liked. He stated on Reddit that he didn't want to go all out on Naya for Command because he wanted to protect himself in the mirror and played Skullcrack instead, which paid off in dividends all weekend. With the extra slots, he played 2 Firecraft, which he said the number was good. He didn't see it too often and when he did, it was clutch. It allowed him to sneak in under counters. He said he was also writing a report for a new site and it should be up soon.
@Khaosspawn: Mate, do what you want. Never said people shouldn't play what they want to play. If it's a discussion about the best cards for Burn, then I'll tell you it's a bad card.
1 landers do have some merit. If you can play out your whole hand (or most of it) off of one land, then I say do it, as drawing any extra land after that would just increase the explosiveness of that opener. Otherwise, you can still play Magic with that hand if you don't draw a land for awhile.
My big rule for mulligans is pretty simple: Does it make me excited to play Magic? If yes, keep it. If not, then mulligan.
For example, if my hand is:
2 Boros Charms
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Searing Blaze
2 Atarka's Command
I'm sending that back. Even though on the surface there is nothing wrong with it, I'm not excited to keep it. For one, it's far too slow, as it doesn't give me a reasonable enough clock to beat any fast deck. Two, it requires me to fetch + shock twice if I want to fix my colors and still be able to play the Searing Blaze. I'm just not feeling it.
I would gladly mulligan that away and probably keep something like this:
1 Boros Charm
1 Rift Bolt
1 Wild Nacatl
1 Goblin Guide
1 Stomping Ground
1 Lava Spike
Now this hand isn't the greatest, but it's far better that the 7 card hand, even counting the fact that the Boros Charm in the 6 card head is currently dead, rendering this hand only 5 cards active. It has four 1 cost spells - two of which are aggressive creatures. There are things going on here and I like it.
There is no wrong way to build a Burn deck as long as it's backed up with solid play, it would seem.
I do like this Path to Exile discussion though. It shows some free thinking. And there are some valid points. I have found that I prefer at least one in the deck (and the same goes with Deflecting Palm) since it does provide an important function – preventing the opponent from winning the game (although in the case of Palm, it can outright win the game). The drawback of this is that it's primarily a reactive card, and as strong as it can be when applied, it can be terrible in multiples when you absolutely need to close out a game. Of course, it can be metagame specific and when it counts, it is sometimes appropriate to pack multiples. A good example of this is if you're going to play in a smaller metagame that you know for sure will be filled with, say, Abzan Company.
The Kor Firewalker discussion is great too. I personally have been off of Kor Firewalker for sometime, as I generally only encounter it in the Burn mirror (or in some fringe cases, Jeskai). As much as I am loathe to admit, the majority of Burn players are not very good and with solid play, I can manuever around a Firewalker to still win the match. With that said, an experienced Burn player that can land a Firewalker on the play poses a huge threat, but the game is still far from unwinnable. I do believe that having a plan or hedge for the mirror is important, but I just don't believe Kor Firwalker is necessary anymore.
You're absolutely right. Burn has evolved because, in order to compete in the Modern world, you have to play the most powerful cards. Some of these cards require splashes and some cards aren't even red at all, but it all fits and it works.
I remember when Boros Charm was brand new and I was loathe to start splashing in the main for it. But at the end of the day, a powerful card is a powerful card.
Take Jund for example (a deck that can really wants to interact with you) - if you're on a Nacatl build, you just remove them for Skullcracks and stuff.
Here ya go:
4 Spark Elemental
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
Burn (28)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley
1 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
4 Flames of the Blood Hand
20 Mountain
4 Leyline of Punishment
2 Reality Hemorrhage
2 Searing Blood
4 Smash to Smithereens
3 Molten Rain
I made this super quick on the fly to teach my girlfriend how to play Burn for the upcoming SCG Regionals. In no time she was burning my face off.
I'll give you the same advice I gave her:
- You auto lose to Leyline of Sanctity. Sorry, but those are the brakes.
- Just throw everything you can at the dome and be as aggressive as possible.
- Try to save a land to activate Searing Blaze's Landfall trigger whenever possible.
- Most people don't block the Elementals since they die anyway.
- Reality Hemorrhage will take care of Firewalkers, Forge-Tenders, Phyrexian Crusaders, and Etched Champions.
- Keldon Marauder's best ability is that it can block, thus saving you life.
- Shard Volley is best used as a finisher.
- Use Skullcracks and Flames of the Blood Hand to "counterspell" life gain.
- One of the deck's biggest strengths is that it takes no damage from its lands.
- Lead with your weakest or slowest spells first. (Ex: Spark Elemental, Rift Bolt, and Lava Spikes will get played before Lightning Bolt and Shard Volley)
Hope this helps. Good luck.
Edit:
The first things to start upgrading on would be the manabase (you can start adding fetchlands to enhance your Searing Blazes and also to splash colors) and your creatures. I recommend splashing Green when going to the next level, since you can now use Destructive Revelry and not fold to Leyline of Sanctity.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer
Burn (26)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Shard Volley
1 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blaze
4 Skullcrack
2 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Stomping Ground
10 Mountain
4 Leyline of Punishment
2 Reality Hemorrhage
2 Searing Blood
4 Destructive Revelry
3 Molten Rain
The deck above is just upgraded by a few hundred of dollars (many times more than what the original list is worth) and it's really up to you if it's worth it for you financially, as the deck is only improved slightly.
You'd be correct. I've also noticed how f'd the mulligans are too. For example, I'll draw a 7 card hand and send it back, only to get most of the exact same hand back (with most cards in the same positions). The worst time was when I mulliganed down to 3 and my Shard Volley was in the first card spot every time. I only run 1 Shard Volley!
I had 2 in the main for the 4 rounds I used it. Spoiler: I lost all four rounds. But it wasn't because of the Firecraft. I lost all Game 3's to 3 different Cat Burn decks when I flooded out hard. Like, 6 consecutive lands and 5 business spells type crap. It was almost comedic how bad it was. I also lost a Game 3 to a Merfolk deck, but I legit got beat there. Anyways, I was always happy whenever I saw it, barring when it was in my opener. It snuck by the couple of counterspells I saw against Merfolk and I was mainly using it to kill big things, like Spellskite (against 2 of the Burn decks and Merfolk....weird that I saw them facing Burn) and Cats. I never sided it out at all. I think that if you're committed to playing it main, it's there to stay unless you really want to lower your curve (like against a true Burn deck and not the Cat varieties. Uncounterability is a huge insurance policy against Snapcaster/counter decks.
As a matter of fact, I was playing with 2 Firecraft most of the night last night and loved it whenever it wasn't in my opener.
Yeah, that was Nicholas Heal. I loved his deck. That thing could fight.
I was playing with Forked Bolt earlier tonight online and did badly. I switched over to Jasper's deck (different sideboard though) and have won 3 straight rounds straight, beating Bogles, Temur Twin, and Dredgevine.
How to make a manabase to support 1-3 Firecraft for beginners: play 20 lands.
Edit: Weird, I made my reply before you made your edit. And then the edit showed up in my quote.
Now my OP looks rather dick-ish.
About Jasper, he typically runs 3 Lavamancer. In addition to his points, he also feels that the first devil is better than third Lava Man right now. I learned this when I did a podcast a couple weeks ago with his friend John Galli after I won the TCG 5K. John is close with Jasper and plays pretty much his 75. In fact, John top 8'd a large PPTQ with the same list. This was also discussed in the podcast.
The Boros Burn list that had 2 in the main was something I liked. He stated on Reddit that he didn't want to go all out on Naya for Command because he wanted to protect himself in the mirror and played Skullcrack instead, which paid off in dividends all weekend. With the extra slots, he played 2 Firecraft, which he said the number was good. He didn't see it too often and when he did, it was clutch. It allowed him to sneak in under counters. He said he was also writing a report for a new site and it should be up soon.
Fair enough. Stand by your convictions. I get it.