I never liked that deck. It was really only played because Dragonstorm lost all of its good blue cards when Lorywn came out. The Spinerock Knoll version isn't consistent at all. It definitely got to worlds by surprise factor more than anything.
Which is why the Grand Prix RAV-TSP version should be the starting point for any modern Dragonstorm deck.
Earthbound21 - I don't necessarily disagree with your end assessment, but have you tried replacing your manabase with one with shocklands and fetches (as well as the Dakmor Salvages)? It makes Hedron Crab (and to a lesser extent Bloodghast) a lot better - playing a crab and a fetch to mill for 6 on turn 2 is a great play, especially if you played a Drowned Rusalka on turn 1 and can thus start dredging immediately
I have. I agree that the Crab is better than Magus. Makes the deck faster, but hands without the crab are the same as not running him. Having to mull into a hand with Crab for consistency doesn't seem ideal.
Quote from Anharat »
Earthbound21: Hi, in your list you are imho missing the best enablers available in the format, namely Hedron Crab (with fetchces it is a beast, on of the best ways to a turn 3 kill, plus is a creature for DR), Zombie Infestation (in some builds it works wonders, in others it doesnt, nevertheless should be considered), Fatestitcher (when you run Magus, you must have these, provide the explosiveness you need).
I have always liked Glimpse the Unthinkable more than Ideas Unbound, to be honest, I prefer Tome Scour even more, because it lets you dredge turn 2 and frees a CC2 play for Magus, Glimpse or Infestation.
The version with self-milling cards is more stable than one with Magus and 'Stitcher, but I personally like this one more for its sheer inevitability - you dont kill my Magus until my next main phase? pray I dont have a 'Stitcher up my sleeve...
I find Glimpse and cards like glimpse are even less consistent than Magus/Crab/Rusalka. The creature enablers are used for their repeatability. For two mana you can get 10 cards in the GY or you can use Ideas and get 15 at best, 12 at worst.
Fatestitcher + Magus seems cool, but the one time it works doesn't make up for the nine that it doesn't.
The problem with Dredge in its current state is that it isn't a reliable turn four win (Dragonstorm) or it isn't fast enough to beat the hate (Hypergenesis).
I have played dredge for a long time. It has been my favorite and "go-to" deck since its inception. I started playing dredge during its brief stint in RAV TSP standard, and I followed it to extended and vintage. Which leads me to my following point.
In the modern format, the deck is played similarly to how it was played in standard, using Drowned Rusalka and Magus of the Bazaar as enablers. And if we stroll back a few years this was fine. However, 3(4?) years after its inception, we are going backwards in terms of how to execute the combo. Especially without GGT.
I have tried playing the deck with 4 Rusalka and 4 Magus and its too slow and vulnerable. I have tried with 4 Rusalka and 4 Hedron Crab's, and while it performs slightly better than the Magus, it still feels very lucky when I get the combo.
It feels as though the deck is playing against me.
It is just missing the fluidity and consistency that GGT provides. And while one more dredge over Stinkweed Imp doesn't seem like that big of deal, it really is. Having to rely on dredge 6 and dredge 5 is much more stable than dredge 5 and 4 and even 3.
All that said, the deck has a few things really working in its favor. Life from the Loam has beyond amazing synergy with Bloodghast almost to the point where he is as reliable as Ichorid was. I run a pair of Phantasmagorian's and being able to discard one to the other all the time really allows me to control what is in my graveyard and what is in my hand and can set up some really explosive plays.
But at the end of the day, the deck doesn't seem consistent enough with Imp and Thug doing all the work and Magus, Rusalka, Crab being finicky and fragile engines.
As long as Faeries are played in the format, specifically Spellstutter Sprite, Hypergenesis is essentially a dead deck. Non Faerie decks have access to Nix or Chalice of the Void.
Its a powerful deck, but it is really, really, really fragile and easy to hate out of the format. Hypergenesis decks can't even run Pact of Negation to protect their combo. Hell, if you play first, Remand on Hypergenesis is GG. Its so stupidly fragile.
IMO The only card on the ban list that are actually ban worthy is Dark Depths. The Artifact lands + Grave Troll existed fine in the old extended format and weren't strong at all. Affinity and Dredge weren't particularly powerful in the format anyway because they are easy to hate on. I fully believe the best decks in Modern will become a Rock variant, a Faeries variant, Zoo variant, and whatever the CounterTop deck evolves into.
People are ridiculously afraid of combo decks when the main combos, at least in Modern format are easy to hate on. Leyline of the VoidTormod's Crypt, Trickbind these cards still exist, in case some of you forgot. Which provides plenty of hate on the premier combo decks. (Storm/Dredge/Genesis)
EDIT: I disagree with Bocephus above me. Combo decks are very defining of a format. If there are no combo decks the meta game becomes stale very quickly. There are only so many ways you can play creatures vs Wrath of Gods and creatures vs other creatures. Combo decks are what keep the meta interesting.
The life loss only becomes an issue against Zoo or RDW where shocking yourself may actually effect the game, but even then its not that bad if your mana base isn't shocking you to death as well. Another reason to advocate Secluded Glen main imo.
Thoughtseize nabbing a Dragonstorm/Cryptic Command/the Aeon walker guy Genesis uses is just too good.
I think you need Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund to be fast enough to beat other combo decks
Karrthus is essentially 20 damage with 2 Hellkites and a storm of 3, provided they have 0 blockers. I will test him, but I am not convinced he is better than Hunted Dragon or Hellkite Charger yet.
EDIT: To clarify my point, the only way your getting 9 mana for Dragonstorm with a storm count less than 3 is on turn 4 when Bloom comes into play. Your turn would be Bloom, Song, tap 4 lands, Dragonstorm for 3. That is where Karrthus shines. The only way to have 9 mana for Dragonstorm before turn 4, is by having a storm count greater than 3. I hope that makes sense.
To clarify further
Turn 1,2,3 win will look like - Rite, Rite, Rite, Seething Song, Dragonstorm. Storm count > 3
Of course turn 4 win could also look like a turn 1, 2, or 3 win but with Bloom added.
Therefore Karrthus is either overkill, win-more, or situational considering that he himself does not have haste and any other time you are casting Dragonstorm you're going to get all 4 hellkites anyway.
I have been really, really liking Thoughtseize in the deck. The best way to beat the Storm hate is to get rid of it before they can use it. Also, Peer Through Depths is crazy good. I'm sure you could have a better manabase than what I am using but at the same time its nice to not be down 5 life on turn 2 against Zoo variants.
The sideboard is pretty generic, catch all kind of thing and I have plans to change it as the metagame grows. The biggest notable is that Nix beats Hypergenesis.
I'm also considering possible dropping a land and Empty the Warrens for 2 Infernal Tutor because he lets you either "go off" and then get Dragonstorm or fetches you that one Seething Song you need without the chance aspect of the blue cards.
Thoughts?
Which is why the Grand Prix RAV-TSP version should be the starting point for any modern Dragonstorm deck.
Link: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=59029
Because Extended was an amazing format.
Seems Wizards just wants to help the players who started with Alara/Zendikar get out of the kiddie pool without properly learning how to swim first.
I made this post before I saw the bans.
Makes Nix much less attractive.
Also, welcome to the premier combo deck thread.
Combo is good for the format. Period. Keeps it healthy and interesting.
Nix stops Hypergenesis, Dread Return, and Mindbreak Trap
So it counters the one deck faster than us. The one deck that can be faster than us. And the best Storm hate card.
Greater Gargadon has piqued my interest. As has Giant Solifuge. He used to be so amazing. Thoughts?
Also, sideboard wise, I feel that 3 Blood Moon is a must along with Vexing Shusher.
Beyond that, I feel that Tormod's Crypt beats out Relic of Progenitus simply because Tormod's allows us to keep using mana to be aggressive.
So that leaves 6 slots in the SB if you go 3/3/3. I'm thinking Sulfurous Blast for the Faeries and maybe Everlasting Torment or Magma Spray or Smash to Smithereens or maybe just some all purpose land hate Molten Rain.
I have. I agree that the Crab is better than Magus. Makes the deck faster, but hands without the crab are the same as not running him. Having to mull into a hand with Crab for consistency doesn't seem ideal.
I find Glimpse and cards like glimpse are even less consistent than Magus/Crab/Rusalka. The creature enablers are used for their repeatability. For two mana you can get 10 cards in the GY or you can use Ideas and get 15 at best, 12 at worst.
Fatestitcher + Magus seems cool, but the one time it works doesn't make up for the nine that it doesn't.
The problem with Dredge in its current state is that it isn't a reliable turn four win (Dragonstorm) or it isn't fast enough to beat the hate (Hypergenesis).
In the modern format, the deck is played similarly to how it was played in standard, using Drowned Rusalka and Magus of the Bazaar as enablers. And if we stroll back a few years this was fine. However, 3(4?) years after its inception, we are going backwards in terms of how to execute the combo. Especially without GGT.
I have tried playing the deck with 4 Rusalka and 4 Magus and its too slow and vulnerable. I have tried with 4 Rusalka and 4 Hedron Crab's, and while it performs slightly better than the Magus, it still feels very lucky when I get the combo.
It feels as though the deck is playing against me.
It is just missing the fluidity and consistency that GGT provides. And while one more dredge over Stinkweed Imp doesn't seem like that big of deal, it really is. Having to rely on dredge 6 and dredge 5 is much more stable than dredge 5 and 4 and even 3.
All that said, the deck has a few things really working in its favor. Life from the Loam has beyond amazing synergy with Bloodghast almost to the point where he is as reliable as Ichorid was. I run a pair of Phantasmagorian's and being able to discard one to the other all the time really allows me to control what is in my graveyard and what is in my hand and can set up some really explosive plays.
But at the end of the day, the deck doesn't seem consistent enough with Imp and Thug doing all the work and Magus, Rusalka, Crab being finicky and fragile engines.
For reference this is what I am currently testing
3x Island
1x Forest
2x Flooded Grove
2x Sunken Ruins
4x River of Tears
3x Dakmor Salvage
2x Yavimaya Coast
2x Underground River
4x Ideas Unbound
4x Bridge from Below
3x Dread Return
2x Life from the Loam
Dudes
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug
4x Drowned Rusalka
4x Magus of the Bazaar
4x Narcomoeba
4x Bloodghast
2x Phantasmagorian
2x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
Its a powerful deck, but it is really, really, really fragile and easy to hate out of the format. Hypergenesis decks can't even run Pact of Negation to protect their combo. Hell, if you play first, Remand on Hypergenesis is GG. Its so stupidly fragile.
IMO The only card on the ban list that are actually ban worthy is Dark Depths. The Artifact lands + Grave Troll existed fine in the old extended format and weren't strong at all. Affinity and Dredge weren't particularly powerful in the format anyway because they are easy to hate on. I fully believe the best decks in Modern will become a Rock variant, a Faeries variant, Zoo variant, and whatever the CounterTop deck evolves into.
People are ridiculously afraid of combo decks when the main combos, at least in Modern format are easy to hate on. Leyline of the Void Tormod's Crypt, Trickbind these cards still exist, in case some of you forgot. Which provides plenty of hate on the premier combo decks. (Storm/Dredge/Genesis)
EDIT: I disagree with Bocephus above me. Combo decks are very defining of a format. If there are no combo decks the meta game becomes stale very quickly. There are only so many ways you can play creatures vs Wrath of Gods and creatures vs other creatures. Combo decks are what keep the meta interesting.
Thoughtseize nabbing a Dragonstorm/Cryptic Command/the Aeon walker guy Genesis uses is just too good.
Karrthus is essentially 20 damage with 2 Hellkites and a storm of 3, provided they have 0 blockers. I will test him, but I am not convinced he is better than Hunted Dragon or Hellkite Charger yet.
EDIT: To clarify my point, the only way your getting 9 mana for Dragonstorm with a storm count less than 3 is on turn 4 when Bloom comes into play. Your turn would be Bloom, Song, tap 4 lands, Dragonstorm for 3. That is where Karrthus shines. The only way to have 9 mana for Dragonstorm before turn 4, is by having a storm count greater than 3. I hope that makes sense.
To clarify further
Turn 1,2,3 win will look like - Rite, Rite, Rite, Seething Song, Dragonstorm. Storm count > 3
Turn 4 win - Bloom, Song, tap 4 lands, Dragonstorm. Storm count = 3
Of course turn 4 win could also look like a turn 1, 2, or 3 win but with Bloom added.
Therefore Karrthus is either overkill, win-more, or situational considering that he himself does not have haste and any other time you are casting Dragonstorm you're going to get all 4 hellkites anyway.
2x City of Brass
2x Gemstone Caverns
4x Shivan Reef
3x Reflecting Pool
4x River of Tears
2x Cascade Bluffs
1x Sunken Ruins
2x Island
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
4x Seething Song
4x Rite of Flame
4x Lotus Bloom
The DARGONS
4x Bogardan Hellkite
4x Dragonstorm
1x Hunted Dragon
The Search
4x Ponder
4x Sleight of Hand
4x Peer Through Depths
The Tech
4x Thoughtseize
1x Empty the Warrens
3x Gigadrowse
3x Pyroclasm
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Nix
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Ignite Memories
I have been really, really liking Thoughtseize in the deck. The best way to beat the Storm hate is to get rid of it before they can use it. Also, Peer Through Depths is crazy good. I'm sure you could have a better manabase than what I am using but at the same time its nice to not be down 5 life on turn 2 against Zoo variants.
Sleight of Hand over Preordain is really more personal choice, as I've always like Sleight of Hand more.
The sideboard is pretty generic, catch all kind of thing and I have plans to change it as the metagame grows. The biggest notable is that Nix beats Hypergenesis.
I'm also considering possible dropping a land and Empty the Warrens for 2 Infernal Tutor because he lets you either "go off" and then get Dragonstorm or fetches you that one Seething Song you need without the chance aspect of the blue cards.
Thoughts?