I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.
...
The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.
I am certainly inclined to agree with you - see my list above. IME, all-in on Paradox Engine is rough, which is why I run the Reversals/Scepters. Between that and the keys, I can reasonably expect to go off without an Engine some games. The Reservoir is there largely as a main-deck answer to burn and hyper aggro strategies that also represents a wincon in ~25% of games. Most of the time you're just Stroking them or casting a Walking Fireball.
I just don't like Thoughtcast. I rarely have problems drawing cards between the Bells, Atlases, Stirrings, and Zenith, and the repeatable effects represent the same level of card advantage the turn before you go off (EoT, Untap, Do it again.)
Thoughtcast costs one mana. Its much better than the 4 mana artifact you're playing. You shouldn't need Reversal at all with 8 Paradox Engines. Reservoir is shut down by one Skullcrack.
I feel like a lot of these decks are unfocused. You have the best cantrip in stirrings and best card draw in thoughtcast available to you. Why not go hard on comboing them.
Being fast and consistent is rewarded in Modern. Better to do one thing well then a couple things medium. You could replace either win con with basically any other big mana win con. Banefire, Grapeshot, Blue Sun's Zenith, Maga, Traitor to Mortals etc.
I agree that one mana discard spells are the first thing to get. If we want to keep the deck budget-ish, I recommend Korlash, Heir to Blackblade as a solid four drop that furthers the swamps matter theme. Otherwise, Phyrexian Obliterator I guess? That card has never ever impressed me though.
Just thought I'd stop by with a few more thoughts on deckbuilding. There's nothing too ground-breaking or even that new, but I've definitely changed my opinion on a few things since I last reported in!
First, and probably the biggest change of thinking for me personally - the Lotus Bloom deck, if you learn the mulligans and the sideboarding, is actually stronger than I gave it credit. I had issues with Lotus Bloom in theory, and that was making me sideboard in a way that was unproductive (e.g boarding out bloom on the draw vs fast decks etc). It wasn't the right way to view the deck, and using Geedemorris' sideboard guide certainly helped me understand that.
Do you have a link to the list and sideboard guide?
I'm seeing a lot of lists running 1 Collective Brutality, 1 Lightning Axe, 2 Ritual, 2 Reunion and I've recently asked myself, whats the point of those two interactive spells? Which matches are we winning or losing if we draw a singleton Lightning Axe? I think I'm going to test 4 Rituals in their place. It just makes more sense I think.
On the same note, when is Emrakul in the board ever good? In what scenario is it better to throw the spaghetti instead of Griselbrand or Wurm?
JVP does not let you cast the suspend cards with Flashback.
"It's [Ancestral Vision] a legal target, since Jace's ability only requires an "instant or sorcery card in your graveyard" as its target.
It would, however, be a waste of the ability's use, because you still cannot actually cast Ancestral Vision this way. Jace's ability essentially gives you permission to cast the targeted card from an unusual place (the graveyard) that you normally cannot cast cards from. But since the ability doesn't say anything about not paying the cost for the spell, you still have to pay normally. Paying normally involves paying the mana cost of the card. But since Ancestral Vision does not have a mana cost, you cannot pay it, and the end result is that you cannot cast it, for the same reason that you normally cannot cast it from your hand." (and suspending a card can only be done from hand) http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/652878-jace-telepath-unbound-ancestral-vision
Are people really saying that Jund can't be hated away? There are plenty of cards, and decks, that can be run to hate on Jund. There is a reason Jund isn't performing all that well for nearly all this last year.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
But going bigger is precisely how to hate Jund away. And it doesn't turn the format into a garbage battlecruiser, because in order to beat the bigger decks you go super small to sneak under them (e.g. infect). Although, as I have stated in a previous post, the option to go super small needs to be available in order to keep the big decks in check. This was somewhat hampered with the Gitaxian Probe ban
Tron is not a midrange deck. It dedicates 12 slots to finding land cards and runs zero cards looking to trade one for one. If you think some circle jerk of of Jund < Abzan < Grixis < Jund is an enjoyable format, I have nothing more to say to you.
Are people really saying that Jund can't be hated away? There are plenty of cards, and decks, that can be run to hate on Jund. There is a reason Jund isn't performing all that well for nearly all this last year.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
I will admit that Unflinching Courage has not been the most stellar card. In fact, it's rarely been good. But I feel nearly the same way about Gryff's Boon. Unflinching Courage dodges Chalice of the Void, but then I guess it may even be unreasonable to think that we can beat that card, especially on the draw. For what it's worth, I have beaten Chalice of the Void around 40% of the time, although Courage has never been drawn during those matches.
I just feel that it gives pseudo-evasion in Trample AND lifelink, while dodging Chalice. Gryff's Boon gives evasion and can come back, although that part has never been done by me. I really honestly only think Gryff's Boon is better against Affinity. Most anything else, you can argue that Unflinching Courage is better. Also, I don't need that many "unblockable" effects - I already run 3 Spirit Mantle.
I was considering trying out 3-4 Mana Tithe for *****s and giggles. Has anyone had experience with that card?
I can vouch for the flying vs Humans and Taxes. I guess it depends on how much you expect to see Chalice. You likely aren't beating a Chalice on the draw whether you have Boon or Courage in your deck. Can't win them all.
I've played Mana Tithe in other decks, and it always feels sweet. The issue though is that you don't get to pick what you counter, you just hit whatever you can, because a lot of the time you can't.
Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
That quite honestly rubbish.
Goodstuff.pile loses to decks that topdeck more powerful cards. Tron, Valakut, even the blue-white and jeskai control decks can all topdeck cards which are on average better than Jund or whatever else you consider goodstuff.pile.
In fact, if you use "topdeck the best cards in the format" as the criterion for goodstuff.pile, I would say Tron falls more firmly into that category as what is more powerful than topdecking Karn, Wormcoil Engine, Ugin, or Ulamog.
In order to one-up midrange decks like Jund, you just go BIGGER. So to say you cannot hate on them is quite blatantly false
The difference that you are missing, is that Tron isn't actively making what I do worse. They are just doing their thing and I can choose to build my deck to beat Tron, same way I can choose to build my deck to beat storm. You've missed my point entirely. You can hate Tron away. You can hate Storm away. You can Dredge, Affinity, whatever away. You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
Jund is fine as a solid tier two option.
Furthermore, you've ignored my point about Jund being poster child for complete non games of magic. Thoughtseize, Liliana, and co. are just as much a part of the non interactive puzzle as any other such thing. There were two wonderful posts on Reddit that I've screen capture for you to check out.
Well said. Midrange decks saying they can't beat Tron ever at all, meanwhile Affinity vs UWR or Jund is just terrible. Why should one style of deck go unpreyed upon? Every deck needs predators. This other guy doesn't get it.
I would like to have Chalice back in my build because -
As far as matchups go, Infect is completely unwinnable. Affinity and Burn are also challenging. Lantern is a joke though
Eldrazi Tron player here. I can say that Chalice is really good vs many decks but it is not that good vs affinity. Damping Matrix is tech against them though. So many affinity in my area I have been using Damping Matrix in my original Jund living end build.
I love chalices and I use them in my build but I side them out vs affinity. I will always use chalices whenever I can just because I have them
I think the thread is on the slower side because there really isn't that much to discuss about the deck lol. It's all in aggro with only minor variations in lists
This is true. I wish I saw more tournament reports though, which is part of the reason I do it myself.
I think Leyline of Sanctity mainboard is worth discussing more. I also saw some lists running 2 Spirit Link mainboard or Corey Burkhart running 2 Gryff's Boon main, which seems bad, outside of being able to block fliers if needed. And there's always matchup win percentages to discuss. I am curious how people do vs. E Tron since I rarely see the deck anymore.
I like the second Gryff's Boon more than the first Unflinching Courage, if that means anything. Flying is sometimes really important and other times simply means unblockable. You could run anything else in it's spot, but it seems good enough.
I've been playing the blue version lately, and I figured I could share my thoughts on Archfiend with you guys too. The problem with Archfiend is twofold. 1) Actually casting him is too slow for his ability to be relevant most likely. 2) Putting him into play with Living End also means his ability is likely also irrelevant.
Is it too much to ask for a modern format where Midrange is on top, aggro and control comprise a solid tier 2, and at the bottom are the fringe strategies that are ok in small amounts but make for an awful meta when they rise to the top such as ramp and linear combo decks?
Or should I just shut up and play standard where the format is almost precisely as I have described above?
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
I used to think it was a draw go permission deck too but it’s a combo deck and if you don’t get to as fortold soon enough even a small clock can be too much. Thursday I lost to not being able to deal with a t1 delver and just took 3 every turn. Serum visions is hardly an issue and visions t1 is by far the best play you can start with seeing the next three cards. No fetches helps ensure the cards you bottom stay out of the way too. I’m now only on 4 remand 4 cryptic 1 disallow. Jvp has absolutely won me games these last two days.
There are tons of card options for this build and the tweaks will be personal preference/meta. I find affinity to not be bad at all. Humans imo is 100% the worst matchup though.
If it is not a draw go deck, then all of us are violating the first rule of deckbuilding - don't build a worse version of something else. The cascade version is much better a assembling living end.
Thoughtcast costs one mana. Its much better than the 4 mana artifact you're playing. You shouldn't need Reversal at all with 8 Paradox Engines. Reservoir is shut down by one Skullcrack.
1x Walking Ballista
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Paradox Engine
4x Everflowing Chalice
4x Astral Cornucopia
4x Mox Opal
4x Surge Node
3x Temple Bell
4x Thoughtcast
4x Fabricate
3x Tezzeret's Gambit
1x Academy Ruin
3x Botanical Sanctum
3x Spire of Industry
4x Glimmervoid
2x Inventors' Fair
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Wear // Tear
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3x Spellskite/Welding Jar
0x Whatever else you want
Being fast and consistent is rewarded in Modern. Better to do one thing well then a couple things medium. You could replace either win con with basically any other big mana win con. Banefire, Grapeshot, Blue Sun's Zenith, Maga, Traitor to Mortals etc.
The deck at its core is High Tide or Heartbeat.
Do you have a link to the list and sideboard guide?
On the same note, when is Emrakul in the board ever good? In what scenario is it better to throw the spaghetti instead of Griselbrand or Wurm?
"It's [Ancestral Vision] a legal target, since Jace's ability only requires an "instant or sorcery card in your graveyard" as its target.
It would, however, be a waste of the ability's use, because you still cannot actually cast Ancestral Vision this way. Jace's ability essentially gives you permission to cast the targeted card from an unusual place (the graveyard) that you normally cannot cast cards from. But since the ability doesn't say anything about not paying the cost for the spell, you still have to pay normally. Paying normally involves paying the mana cost of the card. But since Ancestral Vision does not have a mana cost, you cannot pay it, and the end result is that you cannot cast it, for the same reason that you normally cannot cast it from your hand." (and suspending a card can only be done from hand)
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/652878-jace-telepath-unbound-ancestral-vision
Tron is not a midrange deck. It dedicates 12 slots to finding land cards and runs zero cards looking to trade one for one. If you think some circle jerk of of Jund < Abzan < Grixis < Jund is an enjoyable format, I have nothing more to say to you.
Mostly by Eldrazi and Scapeshift, two decks people are clamoring to be banned. Somewhat theoretically speaking, (this happens in Standard, so I'm citing that) if Midrange is the best deck in a format without ramp, the best counter deck is Midrange +1, which loses to Midrange +2, which is so mid-y and range-y that Midrange can sneak under it. But no matter how you slice it, it's not a desirable outcome to have your format be ever escalating and de-escalating midrange decks. This is battlecruiser magic at its finest. We know this is a bad outcome or else the last six years of Standard would have been much more popular. Having Tron in the format means decks like Infect and Storm are sometimes good, which is a good thing. It allows the format to shift the top dog from Midrange to Ramp to Combo, instead of Midrange to bigger Midrange to bigger Midrange.
It's worth noting that this whole time midrange has been bad, everyone was praising modern for being super diverse and healthy.
I can vouch for the flying vs Humans and Taxes. I guess it depends on how much you expect to see Chalice. You likely aren't beating a Chalice on the draw whether you have Boon or Courage in your deck. Can't win them all.
I've played Mana Tithe in other decks, and it always feels sweet. The issue though is that you don't get to pick what you counter, you just hit whatever you can, because a lot of the time you can't.
The difference that you are missing, is that Tron isn't actively making what I do worse. They are just doing their thing and I can choose to build my deck to beat Tron, same way I can choose to build my deck to beat storm. You've missed my point entirely. You can hate Tron away. You can hate Storm away. You can Dredge, Affinity, whatever away. You cannot hate Jund away. If the answer to beating Jund is to go bigger, we just turn the format into garbage battlecruiser stuff that zero people want. (Evidence: Standard's continual decline in popularity.)
Jund is fine as a solid tier two option.
Furthermore, you've ignored my point about Jund being poster child for complete non games of magic. Thoughtseize, Liliana, and co. are just as much a part of the non interactive puzzle as any other such thing. There were two wonderful posts on Reddit that I've screen capture for you to check out.
Well said. Midrange decks saying they can't beat Tron ever at all, meanwhile Affinity vs UWR or Jund is just terrible. Why should one style of deck go unpreyed upon? Every deck needs predators. This other guy doesn't get it.
I think I'd like them for Infect mostly.
I like the second Gryff's Boon more than the first Unflinching Courage, if that means anything. Flying is sometimes really important and other times simply means unblockable. You could run anything else in it's spot, but it seems good enough.
That sounds 100% awful. So yes, it is far to much to ask. Goodstuff.pile is a deck that is impossible to meta game against in a meaningful way. The worse it is, the better the format is. Consider the following: Storm and Jund are built with the same strategy in mind - make your opponents cards as irrelevant as possible. Storm does something that is hard to interact with. Jund Thoughtseizes you into oblivion then goldfishes you with Tarmogoyfs, while they top deck the best cards in the format. Would you rather play against something you can hate on, or something you can't?
If it is not a draw go deck, then all of us are violating the first rule of deckbuilding - don't build a worse version of something else. The cascade version is much better a assembling living end.