at this point im starting to believe that peoples qualms are about the color pie itself, and not the format.
People who think having more variety in color representation is worth more than variety in strategy representation aren't worth your words mate. The strongest indicator of format health is how many different strategies are viable. Currently, modern is great.
You want aggro? Bogles, BR Hollow One, Humans
Aggro + Combo? Affinity, Infect
Ramp? Tron
Ramp + Combo? Valakut, Amulet
Combo? Storm, Griselydad, Ad Nauseam
Midrange? Jund, Eldrazi, Ponza, Mardu
Midrange + Combo? Dredge
Midrange + Aggro? Shadow
Control? Blue Moon, UWR, Lantern
Control + Combo? Breach
This is what matters. Not whether or not an abundance of purple or yellow cards see play.
@ Earthbound21 - I think people are just looking at your list and saying "why isn't the 4th gemstone there" more than anything. I dunno if you need Grove or the 4th basic, but the 4th gemstone seems like it'd be a good fit.
in terms of coloured sources, im the same as fpawlusz. I run 8 and dont struggle. I dont think you need an extra red or an extra green, but gemstone is pretty good, so perhaps you want to find room for the 4th (for help with t-wests).
Do you also run 3 Firespout? My local meta consists of midrange grind decks and creature aggro decks. If I become concerned with blue sources, I would sooner add Temple or Botanical or Vestige than Gemstone, I think.
I would not play only 3 Gemstone Mines. It reduces the chances of having G on your first turn to play either Scout or Stirrings.
You understand that the replaceable lands in my list are Basic Forest and Grove of the Burnwillows right? You know both of them make Green on the first turn right?
@earthbound21 Honestly, not running the full 4 Gemstones has always felt like a mistake to me. I feel like it's the best non-bounceland land in the deck, and if I could I'd probably run 5 or even 6 to make our mana more smooth. I play a total or 8 red sources (4 Gemstones, 3 Turfs, 1 Garrison) and I haven't had much of an issue. Adding the Grove is nice, but I've just been super happy with 4 basics.
I have 8 Red sources - 1 Boros, 3 Gruul, 3 Gemstone, 1 Grove. The 4th Gemstone Mine would increase the number of Blue sources without changing the number of Green sources. My question was, "How many Red sources do I need to run 3 Firespouts", so if the answer is 8, then I'm covered. If the answer is 9, I would cut a Forest. If you don't know the answer, that is okay as well. How many Firespouts do you run?
Why do we still have people coming with anecdotal or theoretical evidence about skill? Didn't KTK disprove all myths regarding skill many pages okay? Like, okay Foodchains, you can think what you like, but it's been disproven. If a skilled pilot plays his deck skillfully, he will do well. Fact. Mathematically proven to be truth. I don't understand why you and others continue to assert that skill is irrelevant after being factually proven wrong.
Can confirm that UWR has some pretty lopsided victories. Affinity? Easy. Elves? Easy. Humans? Fish? Easy easy easy. Every deck in Modern should have good and bad matchups. A metagame that cycles from Combo/Aggro > Ramp > Midrange > Combo/Aggro is a much better than a meta game with a few 50% decks in it.
I still get the feeling that many people on this forum and across the internet continue to complain, as they have for years, that X deck has bad matchups against Y because Twin ate the bullet and they can't have a 50/50 oops I win tempo/combo/control deck. They romanticize 2014-15ish Modern, like it's some golden age or something. It's not. It wasn't fun at all to not be able to tap out on turn three. It wasn't fun at all when they top decked Twin on turn 7 and killed you. It wasn't fun at all how many other UR decks weren't played because Twin was around. Take off the rose tinted glasses. If you can't win at Modern, its on you. It's not the cards, its not the matches, its not the ban list, no. The one consistent thing in your games is you.
If what you are interested in is a format with 1-5 decks total where you can leverage all your skills and all your copy pasted from CFB/SCG/wherever sideboard tech, let me tell you about Standard. You want a format where you can play goodstuff pile and be safe against nearly everything, but with more decks than Standard? Friends, Legacy is a format.
But you know what makes Modern special? In Modern, we don't have a 5 deck format. We don't have Deathrite Shaman vs Combo decks the format. We have the largest variety of competitive decks available to play in one format. If what you want is diversity, have I got a format for you!
It blows my goddamn mind that we have people arguing for less diversity after just a year ago arguing for more diversity. What in the actual f-
The meta has reached a cyclical point. Pay attention and you'll stop losing.
But the amount of continued tolerance given to the same people in this thread, whining and complaining constantly for year, YEARS about the same trite drivel about how Jund isn't the best is completely absurd and getting quite sickening. Literally all of the numbers we are capable of procuring point to Modern being great, whether it's personal winrates of top players, format breakdowns by deck variety or strategy, color representation, whatever. It's all here and it's all okay. Last year alone we saw the rise (and fall) of Shadow, Eldrazi, Storm, Humans, UWR, and Tron. That's 4 new decks and two decks that were on their deathbeds.
It's so incredibly frustrating that some of you are complaining just to complain. You complained when Twin made you hold up mana the whole game, you complained when you chose Jund (you greedy 50/50 seeking spikenugget) and got paired against Tron and you complained most of all when you lost. Enough is enough. There are archives of this very forum, literally thousands of pages, of the same garbage arguments about how unhappy you all are with Modern, but how incapable so many of you are at adapting or furthering discussion in a meaningful way. Seriously, stop.
I haven't seen too much buzz about the top GP Santa Clara Modern decks: Dredge, UW Control, 4C Death's Shadow, and Mardu Midrange. Right behind that at 5-8 we had Lantern, 2 Affinity, and ETron. On the one hand, I hear that it's not a conventional Modern GP and N is smaller. On the other hand, it's not a unified format so deck choices matter, and the Modern field is narrowed to the format specialists. Seems like a great source of data for top decks going into the PT (at least, a stage 1 dataset). Where's the love for these finishes?
It's questionable how actionable data is from unified events. If a match features six decks (3v3) only two of those six decks can play Fatal Push or Scalding Tarn or whatever. I would think that skews the deck choices too much to be exceptionally worthwhile data points. Am I wrong?
I'm not sure it's necessarily one or the other, but Spirit Mantle guarantees you're going to push damage through when facing creatures which is definitely relevant. It also allows you to have a really strong blocker if need be.
I'm looking to come out of left field at a Sunday event soon with UW boggles. Curious Obsession is totally insane and I'm surprised more people aren't buzzing over it.
This is functionally the same card as Keen Sense which was played in the past, but is dropping from lists for being slow. I don't think the additional +1 makes up for the off color.
Edit: Didn't see you mentioned UW Bogles. I don't know anything about UW, other than I could not be convinced to play without Gladecover or Rancor. GW Bogles is already on the slow end of non interactive Modern decks, replacing a one drop creature for Invisible Stalker or whatever is not a sound choice I think.
Grishoalbrand is a bit too inconsistent. Though powerful things, it does powerful things.
While I tend to agree, it's notable that Amulet was once dubbed as "too inconsistent" until Cohen and Black got their hands on it and made it a monster. A big part of the push for these fringe decks is to get them into the hands of people with the monetary incentive to break them.
On the topic of pros breaking the format, Hoogland has earmarked Goryo's Vengeance as the deck he thinks pros will break for the PT. As someone who plays Griseldaddy, I do sort of hope for some innovation. I bought some Time of Needs because it seems so almost good in that deck.
That seems...an odd choice. Not a deck that's been getting a lot of play, so that'd be a bit out of nowhere. Not impossible, just not where I'd put my money if I were placing a bet. Hoogland's prone to the occasional hyperbole/wild exaggeration.
Oh I know, I think Hoogland is a grade A tool. But I do think there is refinement available yet for the deck and it is certainly doing enough powerful things to be a contender. If anything I hope the PT showcases more than UWR vs GDS vs Storm vs Tron vs Company vs Affinty or whatever that we already know about. I want the innovation to come.
On the topic of pros breaking the format, Hoogland has earmarked Goryo's Vengeance as the deck he thinks pros will break for the PT. As someone who plays Griseldaddy, I do sort of hope for some innovation. I bought some Time of Needs because it seems so almost good in that deck.
People who think having more variety in color representation is worth more than variety in strategy representation aren't worth your words mate. The strongest indicator of format health is how many different strategies are viable. Currently, modern is great.
You want aggro? Bogles, BR Hollow One, Humans
Aggro + Combo? Affinity, Infect
Ramp? Tron
Ramp + Combo? Valakut, Amulet
Combo? Storm, Griselydad, Ad Nauseam
Midrange? Jund, Eldrazi, Ponza, Mardu
Midrange + Combo? Dredge
Midrange + Aggro? Shadow
Control? Blue Moon, UWR, Lantern
Control + Combo? Breach
This is what matters. Not whether or not an abundance of purple or yellow cards see play.
Do you also run 3 Firespout? My local meta consists of midrange grind decks and creature aggro decks. If I become concerned with blue sources, I would sooner add Temple or Botanical or Vestige than Gemstone, I think.
You understand that the replaceable lands in my list are Basic Forest and Grove of the Burnwillows right? You know both of them make Green on the first turn right?
I have 8 Red sources - 1 Boros, 3 Gruul, 3 Gemstone, 1 Grove. The 4th Gemstone Mine would increase the number of Blue sources without changing the number of Green sources. My question was, "How many Red sources do I need to run 3 Firespouts", so if the answer is 8, then I'm covered. If the answer is 9, I would cut a Forest. If you don't know the answer, that is okay as well. How many Firespouts do you run?
Current Manabase:
4x Simic Growth Chamber
3x Gruul Turf
1x Selesnya Sanctuary
3x Gemstone Mine
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Radiant Fountain
1x Khalni Garden
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion
3x Tolaria West
1x Vesuva
1x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Boros Garrison
Nothing in my post is directed at KTK.
If what you are interested in is a format with 1-5 decks total where you can leverage all your skills and all your copy pasted from CFB/SCG/wherever sideboard tech, let me tell you about Standard. You want a format where you can play goodstuff pile and be safe against nearly everything, but with more decks than Standard? Friends, Legacy is a format.
But you know what makes Modern special? In Modern, we don't have a 5 deck format. We don't have Deathrite Shaman vs Combo decks the format. We have the largest variety of competitive decks available to play in one format. If what you want is diversity, have I got a format for you!
It blows my goddamn mind that we have people arguing for less diversity after just a year ago arguing for more diversity. What in the actual f-
Let me give you some tips. If you suspect Tron is going to be at your event, try playing some of these: Grapeshot, Glistener Elf. Arcbound Ravager, Boros Charm, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift. You think creature decks are going to be good? How about some of this Supreme Verdict, Maelstrom Pulse, Pyroclasm, Oblivion Stone. You think Midrange is going to be good? How about your old buddies Primeval Titan, Stinkweed Imp or Karn Liberated. Or if you absolutely must ruin everyone's fun, try out some of these: Cryptic Command, Thoughtseize, Logic Knot, Ensnaring Bridge.
The meta has reached a cyclical point. Pay attention and you'll stop losing.
But the amount of continued tolerance given to the same people in this thread, whining and complaining constantly for year, YEARS about the same trite drivel about how Jund isn't the best is completely absurd and getting quite sickening. Literally all of the numbers we are capable of procuring point to Modern being great, whether it's personal winrates of top players, format breakdowns by deck variety or strategy, color representation, whatever. It's all here and it's all okay. Last year alone we saw the rise (and fall) of Shadow, Eldrazi, Storm, Humans, UWR, and Tron. That's 4 new decks and two decks that were on their deathbeds.
It's so incredibly frustrating that some of you are complaining just to complain. You complained when Twin made you hold up mana the whole game, you complained when you chose Jund (you greedy 50/50 seeking spikenugget) and got paired against Tron and you complained most of all when you lost. Enough is enough. There are archives of this very forum, literally thousands of pages, of the same garbage arguments about how unhappy you all are with Modern, but how incapable so many of you are at adapting or furthering discussion in a meaningful way. Seriously, stop.
Really, honestly, truly - Enough.
It's questionable how actionable data is from unified events. If a match features six decks (3v3) only two of those six decks can play Fatal Push or Scalding Tarn or whatever. I would think that skews the deck choices too much to be exceptionally worthwhile data points. Am I wrong?
This is functionally the same card as Keen Sense which was played in the past, but is dropping from lists for being slow. I don't think the additional +1 makes up for the off color.
Edit: Didn't see you mentioned UW Bogles. I don't know anything about UW, other than I could not be convinced to play without Gladecover or Rancor. GW Bogles is already on the slow end of non interactive Modern decks, replacing a one drop creature for Invisible Stalker or whatever is not a sound choice I think.
While I tend to agree, it's notable that Amulet was once dubbed as "too inconsistent" until Cohen and Black got their hands on it and made it a monster. A big part of the push for these fringe decks is to get them into the hands of people with the monetary incentive to break them.
Oh I know, I think Hoogland is a grade A tool. But I do think there is refinement available yet for the deck and it is certainly doing enough powerful things to be a contender. If anything I hope the PT showcases more than UWR vs GDS vs Storm vs Tron vs Company vs Affinty or whatever that we already know about. I want the innovation to come.