Alright, I understand your deck better now. Thanks for the detailed insight I didn't expect you to not like Master of Cruelties but you make a fair point.
Anyway, I'm glad you posted an update to the deck. Angelic Renewal has been wonderful in my B/W Ghost Council ETB deck and I often use it much in the same fashion as you did. In fact I'm getting a little depressed of how good ETB-centric decks are in Commander... (granted, we don't play with infinite combos)
Seriously, I like to play it in any deck that doesn't use a lot of ETB effects itself and it completely hoses a lot of the more "finely tuned" decks in my meta. Beautiful thing, that.
And ya, I thought I would like Master of Cruelties too, especially after I learned how it worked, but the more I looked through my deck to make cuts and thought about how it played, the more I realized that this isn't the deck to make it work. If I were making some changes for 1-on-1 I'd add it in no questions asked, but as is, we need more reliable options.
I was playing a game with Kaalia where one person was playing Jhoira chaos, one was playing Cromat, and yet another was using some sort of blue artifact deck. Regardless, I wasn't worried about spot removal for this one. Because of that, I was comfortable with dropping Kaalia without protection and cast Armageddon the turn after dropping Gisela. I killed Jhoira and Cromat pretty quickly, but not before drawing seven with a Jin-Gitaxias that my Lord of the Void grabbed from Jhoira, and making everyone else ditch their hands.
My only concern was artifact guy and how his Steel Overseer had pumped an army of thopters that swung at me for lethal as soon as I'd killed the other two players.
This is where it gets cool.
First I used Cloudshift on my Rune-Scarred Demon to get myself a blocker, with the bonus of tutoring up a card (grabbing Avacyn). Then, I blocked his strongest dude, preventing significant damage and killing the demon, only to be brought back by Angelic Renewal and letting me tutor for another card (Akroma's Vengeance). I swung with my team at him, dropped Avacyn with Kaalia, and then wrathed away the last of his board to force a scoop out of him.
So ya...I like Renewal now. Looking forward to seeing how it works against my normal group.
Sorry for the slow response, been busy with work lately. Thank you for the suggestions on my Kaalia Deck. Here is what I am looking at now, (also please keep in mind this deck is primarily for multi-player),
I decided to keep land tax in for the time being, only because I am running quite a few basics. However it I am able to acquire more of the more expensive utility/Duel etc lands then I will take it out.
Has anyone tried Sire of Insanity yet? I am just wondering how it is fairing since I was considering adding it to the list as well.
If you think I should remove or change anything, or want an explanation as to why I decided to keep/change something then please let me know. The main reason I have put this list together is because I run a fairly competitive Mimeoplasm deck and my girlfriend is tired of losing to me using my Zombie tribal deck (which is much more casual), so I am putting this together for her.
First of all, I run a very nice multiplayer thread that you can see in my siggy. I plan on updating the deck list sometime over the weekend after I get moved in to my new apartment.
Second of all, I'm not a fan of Master of Cruelties in multiplayer. I've got a rather long rant about it in my thread, but essentially, if you aren't building your deck to accommodate the combo with Kaalia (i.e. a lot of bounce or back to hand reanimation), then he just sits there and does nothing because you want to swing big beasties with Kaalia rather than swing him into blockers that'll be thrown under the bus all day long. In multiplayer you also have to be careful with social acceptance, and he's going to make people feel bad when they're the one getting one-shot'd to death since it doesn't work against anyone else.
Dance also targets any 'Yard, and puts the target directly on the battlefield. This allows us access to a myriad of effects on bodies that we can't play (for example Terastodon or Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur). And, it's still the third aura that is Sun Titan-able.
Okay, but then that depends on the opponent's you play. I'd rather have a way to consistently get back my own guys, even multiple ones at a time. I can cast one I get back (like Magus of the Moat) and then flash in any of the demons/angels/dragons. It has the added bonus of letting us get more free Rakdos triggers if there's a sac outlet handy.
I Dreaden, I am glad you have come here to my thread for questions. You have a nice start on the deck already, but I can see a few places that I would tidy up, personally. I won't touch on the lands since (I'm assuming) you're still working on that part, and we all know how much of a ***** it is to acquire the requisite duals and fetchlands.
I don't like cards such as Serra Ascendant; it's so all-in and when you draw it late game you'll be sorry. Also as you said this is multiplayer, this card will turn the game into archenemy, moreso than Kaalia's reputation already does (and she is not equipped to handle this effect, unlike a deck such as Dagsson or Zur). It's not worth it. Don't do it.
Cut the high-end rocks. You don't have any signets. Why is this? Play them. You won't regret it.
I'd rather a much simpler Night's Whisper to a big Wheel. Though it is notable that I don't like these kinds of effects. Land Tax should become Tithe, once you get your duals. And I'm pretty sure Skeletal Scrying should find it's way in here; instant-speed Mind Springs are pretty good I hear.
Punisher? You want punisher? Look no further than Havoc Festival! Bonus points if you have an Academy Rector for it as well. Festival is a little pet card of mine.
I don't like planeswalkers in multiplayer. They tend to be too vulnerable and, again, Kaalia isn't known to be a protective commander.
I don't really get why Boseiju is in your list; you don't have much in the way of instants and sorceries with colourless in their costs that you'd care to make uncounterable ('Geddon, 'Clysm are about the only ones by my count).
Why no Charms? Orzhov & Boros Charms are pretty ****in' incredible. Rakdos' isn't quite as good, but it does cover a lot of niche scenarios and can be an acceptable choice.
Really? Dance over Reclamation? I'm not that big a fan of Dance tbh since I need to pay to untap my dude. Animate Dead works fine enough for me.
Have you considered Aurelia, the War Leader? Or even just Aggravated Assault? Aggravated assault (or for that matter Hellkite Charger, a free version) combos infinitely with Sword of Feast and Famine. Sorry I'm new here, I don't know how to tag cards.
Just use card and /card surrounding each with its own set of brackets or use the little button you'll see that looks like a card on on the post dash.
And yes, those cards have been considered, but unless you're specifically building your deck around extra attacks with all sorts of haste effects (Urabrask, Fervor, and [cardAnger[/card] to name a few), I genuinely find extra attack steps to be wasted in Kaalia because the creatures she flashes in can't attack again due to summoning sickness.
Furthermore, I'm just not a fan of infinite combos to begin with and I consider them extremely cheap, even it's an attacking one. I have an infinite combo in my Aurelia deck, but by the deck's nature I'm unlikely to draw into it so I don't mind as much. With this deck, if I wanted to focus on the combo, I'd start tutoring for it, and then it'd be less Kaalia and more combo.
Second of all, If you can't find posts about it, it probably wasn't brought up at all.
I'm actually not considering Sire of Insanity because I don't run a reanimation list. If I did, I would, and anyone else who does should really take a look at him. But I don't, so I'm still not.
Fourth of all, I ABSOLUTELY RESENT CALLING Master of Cruelties AN AUTO-INCLUDE. It is by NO MEANS an auto-include, it never WILL be an auto-include (at least for this type of deck), and I will personally drop kick anyone in my local area who calls it as such.
There are VERY few cards I would consider an "auto-include", and those involve cards that are pretty easy to obtain, or help a deck so much in a specific way that I kind of have to scratch my head at why it isn't in there, particularly when you don't need to warp your deck around it to make it work. The best example would be Crib Swap in a Horde of Notions deck. Why wouldn't you want recurable removal if you're fine with paying eight mana to do it? It just makes too much sense not to.
So why don't I include a potential one-shot kill in the "auto-include" list of Kaalia? A couple of reasons.
1) It needs some set up to work.
Yes it's a one-shot kill, but that requires both Kaalia and Master to go unblocked first. Unless you're roaring ahead of everyone else with mana rocks and hitting them fast, chances are someone's going to have a blocker to take on the Master. It may or may not be the person that you need to kill, and it definitely depends on your meta.
2) The Meta
Because my meta uses a lot of little dudes like Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum, the Master is going to be blocked more often than not and is just going to sit on the board, doing nothing while I try and get more Kaalia swings going. Best case scenario, someone panics and he eats some removal for us.
It's like trying to play my Karador deck sometimes. If I'm playing in a meta with a lot of graveyard hate, then the deck has a really hard time of winning.
3)The Nature of Multiplayer
If you're wrathing away everyone's lands with Kaalia on board, you've pretty much won the game by this point. If you're doing it when it's just the Master, all you've done is find a way to get everyone to one life without winning. The flash in trick is something that works as a very powerful combination...against a single player. After that, the Master doesn't do anything except guard for us because of his "exalted" restriction....though I admit that would make for a cool exalted deck idea.
4) He warps the deck...somewhat
If you run more sac outlets than I do, then he gets A LOT better because of support like Phyrexian Reclamation. But you need to be running a reanimator build rather than the build we have here which is, "play Kaalia, wrath away the lands so they can't deal with her". The deck is focused on Kaalia, but if you want to get maximum usage out of Master then Kaalia just becomes an enabler and the Master pretty much takes over the deck. Yes, you can also run bounce effects with Orzhov Charm and Oni of Wild Places, like some people do for Rakdos. There's nothing wrong with that per se, it's just not the way I want to build the deck. Speaking of which...
5) This Deck Is Built for Land Wraths, not Reanimation/etc
I've mentioned it several times by now, but it's worth saying again: I think he would do well in a reanimation version of Kaalia that wants to get dudes back into her hand for re-use, but we don't do that. We pretty much shotgun out creatures with Kaalia, and hope everyone lives until we can cast Armageddon.
A big reason I don't like calling a card an "auto-include" is because so many different decks want to different things. Even someone as seemingly narrow as Kaalia can be built in multiple different ways. Straight forward aggro (like ours), reanimation, control...you can even go cleric tribal if you want or just play with a "who's who" of your favorite angels, demons, and dragons. You can make it tribal for any of her three types and use her as an enabler.
My point is, an "auto-include" doesn't care what sort of deck it's going into. Master of Cruelties does, a lot.
6) I Despise "Cheap Knock-Outs".
This might be my inner hipster talking but I don't like one-shot kills, especially when it requires so few cards. Two cards like Kaalia/Master, Niv-Mizzet/Curiousity...I REALLY don't like using them, at least in mutiplayer. If I were running a one-vs.-one list like 3drinks is, THEN I'd say Master is an auto-include no problem since two-player commander is a lot more focused on efficient decks that can win.
The Master is a real "feel bad" card in that it can come out of nowhere and absolutely ruin a game for someone where they sit around waiting for the next game to start because now Master can't kill anyone else. Granted, land wraths can do that too, but at least they usually end the game for EVERYONE when it's cast and lets everyone shuffle up for a new game right away (which happens every time I cast Armageddon to win). I prefer my games to involve lots of interactivity until I'm ready to seal my win.
This is BY FAR one of the bigget reasons I don't consider Master an "auto-include", but it's the biggest. Auto-includes are acceptable in nearly every meta, whereas I can see lots of people getting frustrated and upset at Master.
If there's an open slot in the future for my deck, or my primary group gets reeeeeally competitive, THEN I'll consider putting him in there. As it is, I'm not bothering to run him.
UPDATE!!!
Bought a box and a fatpack of Dragon's Maze today, so I got some nice stuff that I WILL be adding to Kaalia.
I never really get the full value off of OT, so I'm going with a much better two-for-one with the split card. The split card is also a lot cheaper to cast when I only one target, and casting it for three is what I usually do for OT anyway. I'll add the thunder back in if I need more enchantment/artifact removal, but since my regular group has a bigger problem with powerful enchantments/artifacts than creatures, I think the new option might prove more effective.
I'm not sure how much cutting card draw will hurt me, but the triple black and five life was a little much at times for me. Here, I'm opting for a much more easily cast spell, and one that acts as reanimation for ANY permanent in our graveyard, which I like. I'd been looking for a way to get some more reanimation into this deck (just enough to have a back up in case high-powered cards like Avacyn died off), and this one fits the bill. Hopefully it'll work out as well as I think it does.
I also got a foil Legion's Initiative, but I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut for it. Maybe Sword of War and Peace? I still like it for its protection, and I haven't had a chance to properly test it out yet, so I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Both my Uril and Kaalia decks have the same problem you are experiencing... those darn clones!!!
Currently I run Flickerform in Uril, but not Kaalia. I am very interested to hear how Flickerform is working for you.
My current plan to avoid cloning effects (Very Similar to yours) in Kaalia are: Angelic Renewal (Love it!) Ghostway (Can dig for this with Sunforger)
and Legion's Initiative (as soon as Dragon's Maze is released).
I have also considered using Silence and Orim's Chant cast during the blue mage's upkeep to keep them from casting their clone. I run these in Uril, with a small degree of success so far.
Keep us updated on other ideas to survive the Clone Wars!
Hm. I'm intrigued by the possibility of Silence and Orim's Chant. I think I'd rather have some of the more reactive cards in my deck though since I don't want to preemptively use a card when they might not have an answer anyway.
Legion's Initiative is a card I'll definitely try and find room to carve out for. With all of these awesome cards as of late, it's getting really hard to keep certain things in. :/
Perhaps Orzhov Charm and Otherworldly Journey? OJ is a cheaper version of Ghostway and Orzhov charm has utility to recycle ETB effects on creatures cheated in by Kaalia (can also destroy and problematic creature at the cost of life). Bonus: both searchable via Sunforger.
I probably should look into Orzhov Charm at SOME point. I'm not a big fan of it's removal modular, and we can't really use it's reanimation modular with the current list, but bounce has been relevant before.
I see that blueram is not playing Aurelia, the Warleader, but did you know that Cloudshift can give you 3 attack phases? Simply Cloudshift Aurelia at the end of the first combat phase and she comes back into play with no memory of her former self.
If you already had Kaalia and Gisela on the board (non-summoning sick) you could technically swing for 20 points of damage 3 times in one turn!
I thought about playing Aurelia in the deck, but the only copy I have is manning my Boros deck atm, centered around getting multiple attack steps within a single turn.
I can't really say since I never gave her a testing, but the mana cost seems kinda intensive for this deck. Not only that, but dropping her on turn six when we want Kaalia out by turn three or four seems a little slow. You can certainly build your deck around that if you want, of course, but mine just isn't tuned for that.
I've tried playing Razia's Purification before, and it taught me something important: Cards that let your opponent decide things are usually pretty bad. By this, I mean cards that give final say like Vexing Devil are very hard to play with since they require head games and ideal scenarios which don't come up very often. More often than not I'd rather have a hard wrath than something that may let my opponent keep their biggest dude that's keeping Kaalia from swinging in. Not only that, but Avacyn can't protect us from it.
Just played some one on one commander with my bro....my Izzet-bro.
Actually, I was in a sciency mood, so we made it "SCIENCE!!!" VS. "Science~!", aka my Dracogenius deck vs. his Pain Artist deck.
My hand was so slow to start. Idk what I would've done if I hadn't drawn into Izzet-bounce land on turn two cuz' I had no other lands besides Desolate Lighthouse.
He started beating the crap out of me early with a Flametongue Kavu, a Batterskull, and a Chandra's Spitfire that was hitting for four because of his Staff of Nin.
THANK NIV I HAD VENSER'S JOURNAL. Actually, I had two of them thanks to Mizzium Transreliquat (one of my favorite cards ever). The life gain from both journal's kept me in the game FAR longer than I had any right to be.
I was finally getting things going by playing a Sphinx-Bone Wand, with an Izzet Guildmage and a Lunar Mystic, with a Isochron Scepter that was Brainstorming for me every turn. Btw, Lunar Mystic let's me cantrip the Brainstorm since I'm casting a copy without paying its manacost. Pretty good when I need to draw as many cards as I can to avoid dying.
Unfortunately, even with a couple of engines online, I had no way to stop my brother from just ramming into my every turn. He cast Sleep to tap all of my dudes and then knocked me down to four life while he got buffed over 90, without me doing barely any damage to him whatsoever.
I couldn't untap my dudes to block, so I brainstormed on my turn (with a cantrip), hoping to draw an answer, and passed to him.
He swung out with his Batterskull germ, Flametongue, and an Anarchist. With my Bone Wand at a single charge counter, I cast Cyclonic Rift (cantripped) at its regular cost and bounced the Batterskull to kill the germ token, this triggered the Bone Wand which shot the Flametongue for two and killed it. I followed up with a Thoughtflare (also cantripped) to trigger the Bone Wand again and shot the Anarchist and avoided taking any damage. With plenty of cards in hand at this point, the journals gave me some breathing room to work with.
Since he was tapped out, I untapped on my turn and cast my Djinn Illuminatus after swinging with my Izzet Guildmage, Lunar Mystic, and my own Chandra's Spitfire.
He tapped out in order to a Goblin Electromancer and recast his Batterskull. At the end of his turn, I cast Lightning Bolt and replicated it three times with the Djinn's ability. This triggered the Bone Wand, which I used to shoot the Germ for four, used the original bolt to kill the goblin, and burned him for nine, with a Brainstorm to finish things up.
With it being my turn now, I used my Mystic Retrieval to get back my Turnabout. I floated some mana and cast Turnabout, replicating it once with Djinn. Trigger the Bone Wand on both instances (for 5, then 6). Float mana before the second Turnabout Resolves. Flashback Retrieval to get it before doing it again to make more mana and triggering Bone Wand ( 7 and 8 more dmg straight to his face for a total of 26 this turn and Chandra's Spitfire getting +3/+0 each time he's dealt damage).
He scooped before I could do anything else, but my plan was to take all of my floating mana, divide by three, and cast Stitch in Time by that many (which would have been at least eight copies by my count, so statistically I would have had at least ONE extra turn). That's the only extra turn card I run in the deck, but it would have been so much FUN!
And thus, I am reminded of my Sphinx-Bone Wand is awesome in a spell-based deck.
I know you have talked up Cloudshift and how it has saved your butt. What would be the difference between that and the following (besides some costing 2CMC):
The only benefit I can think of ETB effects from certain creatures.
*Puts nose on finger*
For that option alone, Cloudshift is better than most of the options you've listed in my experience. Using it as a psuedo reanimation spell or vindicate at instant speed (depending on what creatures you have), or flickering Iona in between your opponent's turns is really good. If I'd had Cloudshift in my hand in the last game I played with Kaalia, I could have covered for my mistake by flickering her at the end of Maelstrom's turn, declared white, and kept Sisay from wrathing me. With Angel of Serenity, it lets you permanently exile three creatures of your choosing, provided you get the timing right.
Not only that, but I like that it can reset creatures as surprise blockers as needed, or allow you to permanently steal a creature you've stolen with some sort of Threaten effect if you happen to run those.
Rakdos the Defiler - A lot of people were talking about him when Kaalia was first spoiled, but I’m still experimenting with him. I originally threw him in as a replacement for the recently banned Griselbrand, but a 7/6 flier with trample is nothing to sneeze at in its own right either. With Kaalia, we get one free shot at someone before we’re forced to make a decision.
Do we use Rakdos to attack, or do we use him to defend and save our permanents?
That depends. If you’re in a position where you can keep using Rakdos’s effect to whittle everyone’s resources away and win the game by flashing in other creatures with Kaalia, then go for it. But if you’re in a tight battle and you desperately need to keep mana ready, then it’s better to hold him back. Unless you can sacrifice Rakdos and get him back into your hand for Kaalia to flash in, I feel like the lost resources aren’t worth damage he can do.
Are you aware that when you flash him in with kaalia you dont have to sacrifice permanents as the trigger doesnt happen? in short, he enters play tapped and attacking, you didnt attack with him. so essentially he beats for 7 and they sacrifice half their permanents. however any attacks after that will cause you to sacrifice permanents.
WHAT?! You mean I've been playing with Rakdos for over a year and I've been doing it WRONG?! HOW EMBARRASSING!!!
What I meant to get across with that section was, "How gutsy am I going to be with him the turn AFTER he's been flashed in with Kaalia when I can't avoid his sac trigger? You can try running Orzhov Charm or Oni of Wild Places, but I'm not a big fan of either in my particular build.
I'm usually content to use Rakdos as either a finisher or a massive momentum shift with his initial swing, and to leave him back to block if I still have a ways to go. Otherwise, if it's down to me and one other person, I'm swinging out every turn.
Not necessarily. He's a very powerful option, but by no means do I consider him an "auto-add". Some of that is social since there are people who you don't want getting butt hurt when you hit them with the demon, and there are players who think doing that is "pretty cheap" and won't want to put that in their deck to begin with (same thing goes for the new Master of Cruelty that's coming out, which I WILL be trying to slot in).
^^ another great read. And TBH, I am going more off of your list than 3Drinks due to his being more 1v1 and I will be doing multiplayer. However, I am adding in my own flavor and creatures cards that I enjoy (as in Yosei, Harvester of Souls, etc).
Wonderful! That is the goal honestly, to provide a starting point for people rather than to say "Here's the best possible deck you'll ever be able to make, have at it". Even with someone as linear as Kaalia, there are still several schools of strategy you can try with her. Fun stuff.
Well... that was a long great read.... all 7 pages.
As I am assembling a trade/buy list to build a Kaalia deck, I remembered something you said: you were having mana fixing issues. After watching a few 3Drinks' videos and looking at his decklist, Jeweled Amulet not only led him to explosive starts, but also helped with mana issues (as in you have mountains and a Godless Shrine, take white for the amulet --- now you have all 3 colors).
Thanks, always appreciate the feedback.
The current list doesn't reflect it yet, but I think I've ironed out some of the issues I was having by including a couple more mana rocks. This puts my total number of rocks up to six, compared to 3drink's 9 rocks. I follow his thread as well pretty closely, so I'm already familiar with Jeweled Amulet. My issue is that because I run a multiplayer deck, while I want to get Kaalia out quickly before people have time to react, I need some of the things I run in order to get some of the reach required to finish games late (stuff like Sunforger or Reforge the Soul that I'd probably cut if I was playing 1 on 1 like his list does).
Since I'm here, might as well put up some game recaps I've been meaning to do, though there isn't that much to them.
Kaalia CONTINUES to get cloned the crap out of her. At this point I'm sure we could film a spin-off/remake of the original movie with this concept. I've officially decided to try out Angelic Renewal in hopes that this helps out.
Played a game last weekend where I grabbed Kaalia to end the game quickly, partly because draft was starting soon and I saw the other guy grab his "Ezuri is a jerk" deck. Turn three Kaalia swung in with Angelic Arbiter at him, followed by Armageddon, followed by him and the other player scooping. He was pretty upset but calmed down some afterwards.
Also last weekend, I was constantly reminded of my "randomly wiping away the lands" play that I made the week before.
Context: I had a land in hand, a divining top, and the only creatures on the board was a Solemn Simulacrum. Against a Hazezon Tamar, a Maelstrom Wanderer, and a Captain Sisay deck that had all ramped out, while I had six lands and a clear board. Not only that, but I had yet to cast Kaalia once, so she was still at 4. I decided to take the gamble that I could outrace them back into contention and played Catastrophe naming lands.
Everyone else scooped by virtue of not wanting to play out the game, which I was fine with by virtue of still getting the win.
Unfortunately, they keep ribbing me about doing it "randomly" which ticks me off more than anything. I THOUGHT I COULD OUT RACE YOU GUYS GEEZ
This game had a clunky start. Kept a hand with two lands because I had Sol Ring and a top, plus Avacyn, Iona, and Lord of the Void. Maybe I was being a little greedy...
I stalled on lands for a turn and Kaalia didn't come out till' turn four or five, but survived the round, letting me swing into Sisay with Lord of the Void and snagging away his Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Kaalia got cloned away after that, but I got cute and sent her to my graveyard because I thought I'd be able to use my Sword of Light and Shadow to get her back for cheap. Then my opponent dropped Maze of Ith. Pretty self explanatory.
Sisay ramped out for a Kozilek that smacked me in the face, took a chunk of life, and forced me to sack my mana rocks and my Grand Abolisher.
With me being beaten down and not wanting Kozilek to get loose, Maelstrom killed it with a clone. What followed was me getting beaten down turn after turn by an Academy Rector with a Deathrender attached to it. The one saving grace is that I had Vorinclex out the entire game.
I was able to hard cast Avacyn...before Sisay legend-ruled her out. Angel of Serenity was a godsend after tutoring for her, as I used her to get back Kaalia while taking out the rector and an Elesh Norn that Sisay had dropped. If I had been paying attention, I could have sac'd Angel in response to the trigger, sent Kaalia to the command zone while permanently exiling the two trouble makers.
My next turn, I hard cast Iona and declared green because I thought Maelstrom was untapping, but forgot that he tapped out to cast Mana Reflection the turn before, so they wouldn't have untapped. I knew I'd made a mistake when Sisay pumped her fist in the air. I knew I should've declared white.
Sisay played Wrath of God, followed by Iona. He gave her haste and killed me on the spot.
If he HADN'T, I had tutored for Reanimate Dead to bring back Avacyn, and would have cast Armageddon to take a HUGE advantage to quickly kill the other two. Ah well. That's what I get for being unobservant. ^^;
Ah, I try to get Mass Hysteria, Lightning Greaves or Fervor into play before the combo. Forgot to mention It's pretty fragile and there are a lot of pieces, but I've pulled it off a couple of times now. Putting Silence or Orim's Chant into the deck helps prevent disruption. Anyway, all the cards in the combo are pretty awesome on their own, so having the possibility of this combo is cool B)
It is, and it's something I've worked into my Aurelia deck, but that's not the route I want to take with Kaalia. Just a preference thing, really.
Breath of Fury gives you semi infinite combat phases with Kaalia, Dragon Mage, and one other creature.
Basically, You attack with Kaalia, Dragon Mage, and another creature enchanted with Breath of Fury, putting out a fourth creature with Kaalia. When the damage is dealt, the creature with Breath of Fury gets sacced and Breath of Fury migrates to the other creature that isn't Kaalia or Dragon Mage. You also draw a new hand of 7 cards. You attack again putting out another creature and the cycle continues as long as you can keep pumping out creatures. Follow up with Living Death or Twilight Shepherd.
Filling the deck with tutors makes this combo pretty likely.
I'm sure on some planet, your strategy is quite impressive. But you weak link is, this is EARTH.
I'm just kidding.
That doesn't really work because none of the creatures Kaalia flashes in have haste, so they can't attack on their own.
On another note, I'm going to be testing Flicker Form as a way to fight of clones consistently.
As the rest of my post points out, no, I do not feel like Entomb meshes with my strategy here to merit inclusion in my ninety-nine.
If money is no object? Sure I'd <3 a Moat XD! Aside from that maybe a Ravages of War. But I don't generally feel like I need that third 'Geddon ('Geddon & 'Clysm) because just one of those = GG. Other than these two, I don't see money as a barrier to obstruct my deck building practices, unless the card is prohibitively expensive (see: Moat).
What about Magus of the Moat? I've been running it to great success in my deck so far. It'll die more easily to spot removal, but it's still a moat-effect that keeps everyone else from beating us down. I also like that it's uncounterable off of Cavern of Souls since I'm usually naming 'human' for Kaalia.
That's why Torpor Orb is so good.
Seriously, I like to play it in any deck that doesn't use a lot of ETB effects itself and it completely hoses a lot of the more "finely tuned" decks in my meta. Beautiful thing, that.
And ya, I thought I would like Master of Cruelties too, especially after I learned how it worked, but the more I looked through my deck to make cuts and thought about how it played, the more I realized that this isn't the deck to make it work. If I were making some changes for 1-on-1 I'd add it in no questions asked, but as is, we need more reliable options.
I was playing a game with Kaalia where one person was playing Jhoira chaos, one was playing Cromat, and yet another was using some sort of blue artifact deck. Regardless, I wasn't worried about spot removal for this one. Because of that, I was comfortable with dropping Kaalia without protection and cast Armageddon the turn after dropping Gisela. I killed Jhoira and Cromat pretty quickly, but not before drawing seven with a Jin-Gitaxias that my Lord of the Void grabbed from Jhoira, and making everyone else ditch their hands.
My only concern was artifact guy and how his Steel Overseer had pumped an army of thopters that swung at me for lethal as soon as I'd killed the other two players.
This is where it gets cool.
First I used Cloudshift on my Rune-Scarred Demon to get myself a blocker, with the bonus of tutoring up a card (grabbing Avacyn). Then, I blocked his strongest dude, preventing significant damage and killing the demon, only to be brought back by Angelic Renewal and letting me tutor for another card (Akroma's Vengeance). I swung with my team at him, dropped Avacyn with Kaalia, and then wrathed away the last of his board to force a scoop out of him.
So ya...I like Renewal now. Looking forward to seeing how it works against my normal group.
First of all, I run a very nice multiplayer thread that you can see in my siggy. I plan on updating the deck list sometime over the weekend after I get moved in to my new apartment.
Second of all, I'm not a fan of Master of Cruelties in multiplayer. I've got a rather long rant about it in my thread, but essentially, if you aren't building your deck to accommodate the combo with Kaalia (i.e. a lot of bounce or back to hand reanimation), then he just sits there and does nothing because you want to swing big beasties with Kaalia rather than swing him into blockers that'll be thrown under the bus all day long. In multiplayer you also have to be careful with social acceptance, and he's going to make people feel bad when they're the one getting one-shot'd to death since it doesn't work against anyone else.
Okay, but then that depends on the opponent's you play. I'd rather have a way to consistently get back my own guys, even multiple ones at a time. I can cast one I get back (like Magus of the Moat) and then flash in any of the demons/angels/dragons. It has the added bonus of letting us get more free Rakdos triggers if there's a sac outlet handy.
Really? Dance over Reclamation? I'm not that big a fan of Dance tbh since I need to pay to untap my dude. Animate Dead works fine enough for me.
Just use card and /card surrounding each with its own set of brackets or use the little button you'll see that looks like a card on on the post dash.
And yes, those cards have been considered, but unless you're specifically building your deck around extra attacks with all sorts of haste effects (Urabrask, Fervor, and [cardAnger[/card] to name a few), I genuinely find extra attack steps to be wasted in Kaalia because the creatures she flashes in can't attack again due to summoning sickness.
Furthermore, I'm just not a fan of infinite combos to begin with and I consider them extremely cheap, even it's an attacking one. I have an infinite combo in my Aurelia deck, but by the deck's nature I'm unlikely to draw into it so I don't mind as much. With this deck, if I wanted to focus on the combo, I'd start tutoring for it, and then it'd be less Kaalia and more combo.
First of all, I'm glad you like it!
Second of all, If you can't find posts about it, it probably wasn't brought up at all.
I'm actually not considering Sire of Insanity because I don't run a reanimation list. If I did, I would, and anyone else who does should really take a look at him. But I don't, so I'm still not.
Fourth of all, I ABSOLUTELY RESENT CALLING Master of Cruelties AN AUTO-INCLUDE. It is by NO MEANS an auto-include, it never WILL be an auto-include (at least for this type of deck), and I will personally drop kick anyone in my local area who calls it as such.
There are VERY few cards I would consider an "auto-include", and those involve cards that are pretty easy to obtain, or help a deck so much in a specific way that I kind of have to scratch my head at why it isn't in there, particularly when you don't need to warp your deck around it to make it work. The best example would be Crib Swap in a Horde of Notions deck. Why wouldn't you want recurable removal if you're fine with paying eight mana to do it? It just makes too much sense not to.
So why don't I include a potential one-shot kill in the "auto-include" list of Kaalia? A couple of reasons.
1) It needs some set up to work.
Yes it's a one-shot kill, but that requires both Kaalia and Master to go unblocked first. Unless you're roaring ahead of everyone else with mana rocks and hitting them fast, chances are someone's going to have a blocker to take on the Master. It may or may not be the person that you need to kill, and it definitely depends on your meta.
2) The Meta
Because my meta uses a lot of little dudes like Wood Elves and Solemn Simulacrum, the Master is going to be blocked more often than not and is just going to sit on the board, doing nothing while I try and get more Kaalia swings going. Best case scenario, someone panics and he eats some removal for us.
It's like trying to play my Karador deck sometimes. If I'm playing in a meta with a lot of graveyard hate, then the deck has a really hard time of winning.
3)The Nature of Multiplayer
If you're wrathing away everyone's lands with Kaalia on board, you've pretty much won the game by this point. If you're doing it when it's just the Master, all you've done is find a way to get everyone to one life without winning. The flash in trick is something that works as a very powerful combination...against a single player. After that, the Master doesn't do anything except guard for us because of his "exalted" restriction....though I admit that would make for a cool exalted deck idea.
4) He warps the deck...somewhat
If you run more sac outlets than I do, then he gets A LOT better because of support like Phyrexian Reclamation. But you need to be running a reanimator build rather than the build we have here which is, "play Kaalia, wrath away the lands so they can't deal with her". The deck is focused on Kaalia, but if you want to get maximum usage out of Master then Kaalia just becomes an enabler and the Master pretty much takes over the deck. Yes, you can also run bounce effects with Orzhov Charm and Oni of Wild Places, like some people do for Rakdos. There's nothing wrong with that per se, it's just not the way I want to build the deck. Speaking of which...
5) This Deck Is Built for Land Wraths, not Reanimation/etc
I've mentioned it several times by now, but it's worth saying again: I think he would do well in a reanimation version of Kaalia that wants to get dudes back into her hand for re-use, but we don't do that. We pretty much shotgun out creatures with Kaalia, and hope everyone lives until we can cast Armageddon.
A big reason I don't like calling a card an "auto-include" is because so many different decks want to different things. Even someone as seemingly narrow as Kaalia can be built in multiple different ways. Straight forward aggro (like ours), reanimation, control...you can even go cleric tribal if you want or just play with a "who's who" of your favorite angels, demons, and dragons. You can make it tribal for any of her three types and use her as an enabler.
My point is, an "auto-include" doesn't care what sort of deck it's going into. Master of Cruelties does, a lot.
6) I Despise "Cheap Knock-Outs".
This might be my inner hipster talking but I don't like one-shot kills, especially when it requires so few cards. Two cards like Kaalia/Master, Niv-Mizzet/Curiousity...I REALLY don't like using them, at least in mutiplayer. If I were running a one-vs.-one list like 3drinks is, THEN I'd say Master is an auto-include no problem since two-player commander is a lot more focused on efficient decks that can win.
The Master is a real "feel bad" card in that it can come out of nowhere and absolutely ruin a game for someone where they sit around waiting for the next game to start because now Master can't kill anyone else. Granted, land wraths can do that too, but at least they usually end the game for EVERYONE when it's cast and lets everyone shuffle up for a new game right away (which happens every time I cast Armageddon to win). I prefer my games to involve lots of interactivity until I'm ready to seal my win.
This is BY FAR one of the bigget reasons I don't consider Master an "auto-include", but it's the biggest. Auto-includes are acceptable in nearly every meta, whereas I can see lots of people getting frustrated and upset at Master.
If there's an open slot in the future for my deck, or my primary group gets reeeeeally competitive, THEN I'll consider putting him in there. As it is, I'm not bothering to run him.
UPDATE!!!
Bought a box and a fatpack of Dragon's Maze today, so I got some nice stuff that I WILL be adding to Kaalia.
Orim's Thunder -> Wear // Tear
I never really get the full value off of OT, so I'm going with a much better two-for-one with the split card. The split card is also a lot cheaper to cast when I only one target, and casting it for three is what I usually do for OT anyway. I'll add the thunder back in if I need more enchantment/artifact removal, but since my regular group has a bigger problem with powerful enchantments/artifacts than creatures, I think the new option might prove more effective.
Promise of Power -> Obzedat's Aid
I'm not sure how much cutting card draw will hurt me, but the triple black and five life was a little much at times for me. Here, I'm opting for a much more easily cast spell, and one that acts as reanimation for ANY permanent in our graveyard, which I like. I'd been looking for a way to get some more reanimation into this deck (just enough to have a back up in case high-powered cards like Avacyn died off), and this one fits the bill. Hopefully it'll work out as well as I think it does.
I also got a foil Legion's Initiative, but I'm having a hard time deciding what to cut for it. Maybe Sword of War and Peace? I still like it for its protection, and I haven't had a chance to properly test it out yet, so I'll keep it in mind for the future.
Hm. I'm intrigued by the possibility of Silence and Orim's Chant. I think I'd rather have some of the more reactive cards in my deck though since I don't want to preemptively use a card when they might not have an answer anyway.
Legion's Initiative is a card I'll definitely try and find room to carve out for. With all of these awesome cards as of late, it's getting really hard to keep certain things in. :/
I probably should look into Orzhov Charm at SOME point. I'm not a big fan of it's removal modular, and we can't really use it's reanimation modular with the current list, but bounce has been relevant before.
I thought about playing Aurelia in the deck, but the only copy I have is manning my Boros deck atm, centered around getting multiple attack steps within a single turn.
I can't really say since I never gave her a testing, but the mana cost seems kinda intensive for this deck. Not only that, but dropping her on turn six when we want Kaalia out by turn three or four seems a little slow. You can certainly build your deck around that if you want, of course, but mine just isn't tuned for that.
Excellent troll, sir, but I'll bite anyway.
I've tried playing Razia's Purification before, and it taught me something important: Cards that let your opponent decide things are usually pretty bad. By this, I mean cards that give final say like Vexing Devil are very hard to play with since they require head games and ideal scenarios which don't come up very often. More often than not I'd rather have a hard wrath than something that may let my opponent keep their biggest dude that's keeping Kaalia from swinging in. Not only that, but Avacyn can't protect us from it.
Actually, I was in a sciency mood, so we made it "SCIENCE!!!" VS. "Science~!", aka my Dracogenius deck vs. his Pain Artist deck.
My hand was so slow to start. Idk what I would've done if I hadn't drawn into Izzet-bounce land on turn two cuz' I had no other lands besides Desolate Lighthouse.
He started beating the crap out of me early with a Flametongue Kavu, a Batterskull, and a Chandra's Spitfire that was hitting for four because of his Staff of Nin.
THANK NIV I HAD VENSER'S JOURNAL. Actually, I had two of them thanks to Mizzium Transreliquat (one of my favorite cards ever). The life gain from both journal's kept me in the game FAR longer than I had any right to be.
I was finally getting things going by playing a Sphinx-Bone Wand, with an Izzet Guildmage and a Lunar Mystic, with a Isochron Scepter that was Brainstorming for me every turn. Btw, Lunar Mystic let's me cantrip the Brainstorm since I'm casting a copy without paying its manacost. Pretty good when I need to draw as many cards as I can to avoid dying.
Unfortunately, even with a couple of engines online, I had no way to stop my brother from just ramming into my every turn. He cast Sleep to tap all of my dudes and then knocked me down to four life while he got buffed over 90, without me doing barely any damage to him whatsoever.
I couldn't untap my dudes to block, so I brainstormed on my turn (with a cantrip), hoping to draw an answer, and passed to him.
He swung out with his Batterskull germ, Flametongue, and an Anarchist. With my Bone Wand at a single charge counter, I cast Cyclonic Rift (cantripped) at its regular cost and bounced the Batterskull to kill the germ token, this triggered the Bone Wand which shot the Flametongue for two and killed it. I followed up with a Thoughtflare (also cantripped) to trigger the Bone Wand again and shot the Anarchist and avoided taking any damage. With plenty of cards in hand at this point, the journals gave me some breathing room to work with.
Since he was tapped out, I untapped on my turn and cast my Djinn Illuminatus after swinging with my Izzet Guildmage, Lunar Mystic, and my own Chandra's Spitfire.
He tapped out in order to a Goblin Electromancer and recast his Batterskull. At the end of his turn, I cast Lightning Bolt and replicated it three times with the Djinn's ability. This triggered the Bone Wand, which I used to shoot the Germ for four, used the original bolt to kill the goblin, and burned him for nine, with a Brainstorm to finish things up.
With it being my turn now, I used my Mystic Retrieval to get back my Turnabout. I floated some mana and cast Turnabout, replicating it once with Djinn. Trigger the Bone Wand on both instances (for 5, then 6). Float mana before the second Turnabout Resolves. Flashback Retrieval to get it before doing it again to make more mana and triggering Bone Wand ( 7 and 8 more dmg straight to his face for a total of 26 this turn and Chandra's Spitfire getting +3/+0 each time he's dealt damage).
He scooped before I could do anything else, but my plan was to take all of my floating mana, divide by three, and cast Stitch in Time by that many (which would have been at least eight copies by my count, so statistically I would have had at least ONE extra turn). That's the only extra turn card I run in the deck, but it would have been so much FUN!
And thus, I am reminded of my Sphinx-Bone Wand is awesome in a spell-based deck.
*Puts nose on finger*
For that option alone, Cloudshift is better than most of the options you've listed in my experience. Using it as a psuedo reanimation spell or vindicate at instant speed (depending on what creatures you have), or flickering Iona in between your opponent's turns is really good. If I'd had Cloudshift in my hand in the last game I played with Kaalia, I could have covered for my mistake by flickering her at the end of Maelstrom's turn, declared white, and kept Sisay from wrathing me. With Angel of Serenity, it lets you permanently exile three creatures of your choosing, provided you get the timing right.
Not only that, but I like that it can reset creatures as surprise blockers as needed, or allow you to permanently steal a creature you've stolen with some sort of Threaten effect if you happen to run those.
WHAT?! You mean I've been playing with Rakdos for over a year and I've been doing it WRONG?! HOW EMBARRASSING!!!
What I meant to get across with that section was, "How gutsy am I going to be with him the turn AFTER he's been flashed in with Kaalia when I can't avoid his sac trigger? You can try running Orzhov Charm or Oni of Wild Places, but I'm not a big fan of either in my particular build.
I'm usually content to use Rakdos as either a finisher or a massive momentum shift with his initial swing, and to leave him back to block if I still have a ways to go. Otherwise, if it's down to me and one other person, I'm swinging out every turn.
Not necessarily. He's a very powerful option, but by no means do I consider him an "auto-add". Some of that is social since there are people who you don't want getting butt hurt when you hit them with the demon, and there are players who think doing that is "pretty cheap" and won't want to put that in their deck to begin with (same thing goes for the new Master of Cruelty that's coming out, which I WILL be trying to slot in).
Wonderful! That is the goal honestly, to provide a starting point for people rather than to say "Here's the best possible deck you'll ever be able to make, have at it". Even with someone as linear as Kaalia, there are still several schools of strategy you can try with her. Fun stuff.
Thanks, always appreciate the feedback.
The current list doesn't reflect it yet, but I think I've ironed out some of the issues I was having by including a couple more mana rocks. This puts my total number of rocks up to six, compared to 3drink's 9 rocks. I follow his thread as well pretty closely, so I'm already familiar with Jeweled Amulet. My issue is that because I run a multiplayer deck, while I want to get Kaalia out quickly before people have time to react, I need some of the things I run in order to get some of the reach required to finish games late (stuff like Sunforger or Reforge the Soul that I'd probably cut if I was playing 1 on 1 like his list does).
Since I'm here, might as well put up some game recaps I've been meaning to do, though there isn't that much to them.
Kaalia CONTINUES to get cloned the crap out of her. At this point I'm sure we could film a spin-off/remake of the original movie with this concept. I've officially decided to try out Angelic Renewal in hopes that this helps out.
Played a game last weekend where I grabbed Kaalia to end the game quickly, partly because draft was starting soon and I saw the other guy grab his "Ezuri is a jerk" deck. Turn three Kaalia swung in with Angelic Arbiter at him, followed by Armageddon, followed by him and the other player scooping. He was pretty upset but calmed down some afterwards.
Also last weekend, I was constantly reminded of my "randomly wiping away the lands" play that I made the week before.
Context: I had a land in hand, a divining top, and the only creatures on the board was a Solemn Simulacrum. Against a Hazezon Tamar, a Maelstrom Wanderer, and a Captain Sisay deck that had all ramped out, while I had six lands and a clear board. Not only that, but I had yet to cast Kaalia once, so she was still at 4. I decided to take the gamble that I could outrace them back into contention and played Catastrophe naming lands.
Everyone else scooped by virtue of not wanting to play out the game, which I was fine with by virtue of still getting the win.
Unfortunately, they keep ribbing me about doing it "randomly" which ticks me off more than anything. I THOUGHT I COULD OUT RACE YOU GUYS GEEZ
This game had a clunky start. Kept a hand with two lands because I had Sol Ring and a top, plus Avacyn, Iona, and Lord of the Void. Maybe I was being a little greedy...
I stalled on lands for a turn and Kaalia didn't come out till' turn four or five, but survived the round, letting me swing into Sisay with Lord of the Void and snagging away his Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger. Kaalia got cloned away after that, but I got cute and sent her to my graveyard because I thought I'd be able to use my Sword of Light and Shadow to get her back for cheap. Then my opponent dropped Maze of Ith. Pretty self explanatory.
Sisay ramped out for a Kozilek that smacked me in the face, took a chunk of life, and forced me to sack my mana rocks and my Grand Abolisher.
With me being beaten down and not wanting Kozilek to get loose, Maelstrom killed it with a clone. What followed was me getting beaten down turn after turn by an Academy Rector with a Deathrender attached to it. The one saving grace is that I had Vorinclex out the entire game.
I was able to hard cast Avacyn...before Sisay legend-ruled her out. Angel of Serenity was a godsend after tutoring for her, as I used her to get back Kaalia while taking out the rector and an Elesh Norn that Sisay had dropped. If I had been paying attention, I could have sac'd Angel in response to the trigger, sent Kaalia to the command zone while permanently exiling the two trouble makers.
My next turn, I hard cast Iona and declared green because I thought Maelstrom was untapping, but forgot that he tapped out to cast Mana Reflection the turn before, so they wouldn't have untapped. I knew I'd made a mistake when Sisay pumped her fist in the air. I knew I should've declared white.
Sisay played Wrath of God, followed by Iona. He gave her haste and killed me on the spot.
If he HADN'T, I had tutored for Reanimate Dead to bring back Avacyn, and would have cast Armageddon to take a HUGE advantage to quickly kill the other two. Ah well. That's what I get for being unobservant. ^^;
It is, and it's something I've worked into my Aurelia deck, but that's not the route I want to take with Kaalia. Just a preference thing, really.
I'm sure on some planet, your strategy is quite impressive. But you weak link is, this is EARTH.
I'm just kidding.
That doesn't really work because none of the creatures Kaalia flashes in have haste, so they can't attack on their own.
On another note, I'm going to be testing Flicker Form as a way to fight of clones consistently.
What about Magus of the Moat? I've been running it to great success in my deck so far. It'll die more easily to spot removal, but it's still a moat-effect that keeps everyone else from beating us down. I also like that it's uncounterable off of Cavern of Souls since I'm usually naming 'human' for Kaalia.