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  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from Ruzhyo »
    Hey BlueRam, your list inspired mine a bit, though I've changed some cards due to my meta and card availability.

    Is there anyway to turn dead land draws into gas? Some kind of reusable loot effect, cheaper Seer's Sundial, or a one-sided Horn of Greed? I find that I keep drawing land in the longer games and would like some way of recyling them, short of hoarding them for a MLD.

    I would recommend looking at cards that require a discard cost, like Tormenting Voice, or retrace cards like Waves of Aggression / Raven's Crime.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] [PRIMER] Kaalia of the Vast
    Quote from 3drinks »
    Wow. Uncommon dragons. At the very least, the baseline Kaalia is getting three actual good creatures. And there's one red Dragon at common, as I hear.

    The white one is interesting, as it doesn't have Flameblast Syndrome as according to it's wording, but it's an effect we want online before we swing, not during. The red one is like a miniature Balefire Dragon. The black one is the least interesting, but still a viable option for said baseline deck.

    With that said, the baseline deck currently only has 15 Kaalia targets. That number needed to come up, but what do you think we end up cutting to make room for it?
    Posted in: 1 vs 1 Commander
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Hey guys! I'm back and this time I really do have an updated list for Kaalia! It's been a while and some cards I thought would never get cut got pushed out because of the awesome cards that Wizards has been giving us. Most notably is that my current list has a lot more demons, less dragons, and I've been able to cut down on the mana cost of most of my creatures.

    DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Land (37)
    1x Ancient Tomb
    1x Arid Mesa
    1x Badlands
    1x Blood Crypt
    1x Bloodstained Mire
    1x Bojuka Bog
    1x Cavern of Souls
    1x Clifftop Retreat
    1x Command Tower
    1x Dragonskull Summit
    1x Fetid Heath
    1x Godless Shrine
    1x Graven Cairns
    1x Hall of the Bandit Lord
    1x High Market
    1x Homeward Path
    1x Isolated Chapel
    1x Marsh Flats
    2x Mountain
    1x Nomad Outpost
    1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
    1x Opal Palace
    1x Phyrexian Tower
    3x Plains
    1x Plateau
    1x Rugged Prairie
    1x Sacred Foundry
    1x Scrubland
    1x Strip Mine
    3x Swamp
    1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1x Vault of the Archangel

    Enchantment (4)
    1x Animate Dead
    1x Greed
    1x Phyrexian Reclamation
    1x Stranglehold

    Creature (25)
    1x Angel of Despair
    1x Angel of Finality
    1x Angel of Serenity
    1x Avacyn, Angel of Hope
    1x Balefire Dragon
    1x Baneslayer Angel
    1x Bloodgift Demon
    1x Butcher of the Horde
    1x Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
    1x Grand Abolisher
    1x Hellkite Tyrant
    1x Indulgent Tormentor
    1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1x Iroas, God of Victory
    1x Karmic Guide
    1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
    1x Lord of the Void
    1x Magus of the Moat
    1x Ob Nixilis, Unshackled
    1x Resolute Archangel
    1x Rune-Scarred Demon
    1x Shadowborn Demon
    1x Stoneforge Mystic
    1x Stormbreath Dragon
    1x Thundermaw Hellkite

    Sorcery (7)
    1x Akroma's Vengeance
    1x Armageddon
    1x Catastrophe
    1x Demonic Tutor
    1x Merciless Eviction
    1x Night's Whisper
    1x Read the Bones

    Artifact (15)
    1x Boros Signet
    1x Coldsteel Heart
    1x Fellwar Stone
    1x Lightning Greaves
    1x Mind Stone
    1x Orzhov Signet
    1x Rakdos Signet
    1x Sol Ring
    1x Sphere of the Suns
    1x Swiftfoot Boots
    1x Sword of Feast and Famine
    1x Sword of Fire and Ice
    1x Sword of War and Peace
    1x Talisman of Indulgence
    1x Whip of Erebos

    Instant (11)
    1x Boros Charm
    1x Chaos Warp
    1x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Hide/Seek
    1x Oblation
    1x Path to Exile
    1x Rakdos Charm
    1x Swords to Plowshares
    1x Utter End
    1x Vampiric Tutor
    1x Wear / Tear

    I found I often got frustrated with my wheel effects and Necropotence trying to play nice together, so I actually ended up cutting both. Necropotence was replaced with Greed simply because it's easier on the mana-base and gives me an alternative turn three-four play if I don't feel ready to play Kaalia. The wheel effects were cut for cheaper card draw since I became more concerned with keeping my threats coming rather than disrupting everyone else or potentially refilling everyone's hand with Dragon Mage (worry not, he has a nice new home in Nekusar).

    I also changed my philosophy on what kinds of angels/demons/dragons I wanted to use. I want them to be at least one of these things:

    1) An etb effect where I'm okay with the creature dying because it's effect is so powerful that I've already profited by letting Kaalia drop em' into play. Resolute Archangel and Shadowborn Demon were added because of how powerful their effects are.

    2) Aggressively costed so I could take some pressure off of Kaalia. The problem with jamming in nothing but big, game breaking creatures is that without Kaalia it takes you a while to play them. You can try playing reanimator or any other variations of Kaalia, but I specifically wanted to build an aggressive deck where I could hard cast enough creatures that Kaalia becomes one of many threats rather than THE threat they have to deal with. Baneslayer Angel was originally cut, but I slotted her back in when I realized I needed more mid-sized creatures. Indulgent Tormentor is also a reasonable to cast body that has the benefit of acting like card draw/removal/pressure. Butcher of the Horde doubles as a sac outlet for Kaalia. I shelled out the money for a Stormbreath Dragonrecently because like the Thundermaw he's a hastey dragon that comes with the upside of getting bigger and burning everyone for more damage later.

    3) A game breaking bomb. This was more of a guideline one what to keep. Rakdos, the Defiler is certainly this for one swing, but if I don't have a sac outlet and a way to keep getting him back to my hand (Phyrexian Reclamation is a good one), then I have to give up a lot to keep pushing for damage. Other cards, like Steel Hellkite, were also good but required some sort of setup or cost to get their effects. The ones I kept needed little or no setup cost outside of playing them. Avacyn, Gisela, and Iona are the big icons for this, but Lord of the Void and Balefire Dragon were also kept in because their effects can break the game open if they connect. Although Ob Nixilis might not qualify as a huge bomb, keeping people off of tutoring while also growing bigger incidentally, with trample of all things, is not insignificant. He toes the line between this criteria and criteria #2.

    Speaking of set up costs, this is also part of how I ended up cutting Sunforger. Don't get me wrong, it's an amazing card and I want to find room for it in the future again, but I was constantly getting into situations where I either had no creatures to equip it too, or the mana to use it was getting in the way of other things I needed to do. Hopefully reducing the cost of my angels/demons/dragons will make running it much more feasible, but for the time being I'm putting it back on the rack.

    The last thing I want to touch on are some additions I made during Theros block.

    Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx - I've been giving this card a try and it does surprisingly well for this deck. Normally I'd never use a devotion card in a three color deck, but so many angels and demons have triple mana in their costs that one creature already pays for Nykthos's activation. It's a great way to power out some more big guys or just play more than a single card a turn.

    Whip of Erebos - I love lifelink. It pays for Greed and keeps me in a fight where everyone's going to be beating on me because I'm the top threat. The whip also plays an important role by bringing back creatures. ETB effects that you need right now, or sudden beats to push through for damage make it worth the exile clause. It's worth noting that this is another reason why I'm going to try and find room for Cloudshift since I'll be able to keep the creature afterwards.

    Iroas, God of Victory - Although he does get turned on quite a bit (see devotion to Nykthos), I've really been enjoying how he enables my aggressive game plan. It keeps Kaalia alive and actually makes blocking a lot harder since your opponents need to commit even more creatures to be run over by your guys who are usually a lot bigger, assuming they have any fliers at all.

    That's it for now, folks! I'm super happy that I was finally able to find the time to post the update and go into detail about the changes I made. Let me know what you guys think!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    If anything, I would be more interested in the new pre-release promo angel or demon. The angel could reset our life total since we tend to cannibalize it pretty quickly. The demon is easy to cast on his own and could either be Bloodgift #2 or additional pressure on whoever you're attacking. Of course, I'm not a fan of cards that defer to your opponent, so it's probably better in one-on-one than in our multiplayer environment.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Okay, suffice it to say that Ob Nixis unshackled is going in. In fact, he's the reason I'm finally cutting Akroma. =( I've had to cut so many pet cards lately. Oh well. At least I can still use them on mtgo while my deck there's still bad and cheap.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Got some good playing in last week.

    The whip is definitely doing a LOT of work. Lifelink is very important to this deck, especially with the way I keep cannibalizing my life total (at one point I had done over 20 pts of damage to myself with Ancient Tomb w/o anyone bothering to touch me because I wasn't drawing my fourth land). But even the one-shot reanimations with haste have been proving worthwhile. Whipping back an ETB effect, strapping it up with a sword and getting in for some quick beats is a much better use for them than letting them sit in the graveyard where they're a prime reanimation target for anyone running Sepulchral Primordial.

    I got a chance to try out Iroas for the first time. He definitely helps the Whip-quick-beats game plan. Concerns of him fighting Kaalia for the four drop slot is actually incorrect. More often, he's a 5 or 6 drop card since the correct play is often to play Kaalia, then play him so that she can get a free swing in. I need to try him more, but he facilitates the aggro strategy I want quite well.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Hey guys! Sorry I haven't been around. I've been spending the better part of my year playing two-color decks and mono-coloreds some good playtesting time.

    Iroas is someone I actually want to consider for this deck. Him and Athreos, actually.

    Right now I'm giving me deck a thorough look over and I'm going to be doing some retooling. The list I currently run has already cut out some of my favorites like sunforger and Cloudshift. =(

    Of the cards I'm looking to add in, the two new gods actually seem very strong for an aggressive build so I'm going to test them both the next time I go into my lgs.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from bigbearlyke
    What do you think about the possibility of going even deeper down the rabbit hole with land destruction?

    I was playing around in my various deck building programs with lists that go as low as 9 creatures including Kaalia. The rest is all mass and targeted land removal, mana rocks, tutors, removal and indestructibility packages.

    How many slots for land destruction is to many? Even if I'm going for that as the deck archetype.

    Hmmm....well, if your playgroup is okay with not playing magic while you punch them in the face over and over, then by all means go for it. Personally, I feel 2-3 land wraths are perfectly acceptable if you're using them as wincons and have a good suite of tutors.

    For you though? I honestly couldn't say. If that's your primary goal, then by all means continue to toy around with it.

    I'm not a big fan of going that creature light in a Kaalia deck, but if you always have a fatty then it may work out. I'd try and add in some more beats though.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Jenara - The ETB Bant Army
    Quote from bigbearlyke
    After falling in love hard with her and Iona I'm starting to feel the same way. I'm starting to think that maybe she would be best served run in a deck with some MLD packages run around her. Last night I had this crazy idea of running a Kaalia MLD deck built around keeping my stuff with things like Avacyn and a Darksteel Forge Mycosynth Lattice type combo.

    Wellllll, if MLD is your jam, might I direct your eyes toward my primer good sir?

    Regarding Conjurer's Closet: This is a card I've always loved in blink/flicker/value decks. It's not as fast as, say, a Deadeye Navigator, but it's great to have something that auto-flickers for you every round. I use it to great effect in Sharuum and Lavinia.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from Shinkirou
    What is everyone's opinion on Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon? I know he doesn't work towards a common win condition as Kaalia or rest of her deck but, it might be a good way to deal with a life gain deck that has gotten out of control late game. Since we don't want to run something like big Sorin and Kaalia's commander damage takes a forever to finish a player off.

    I think with the amount of recursion we run he might be worth running testing because he is always a 3 turn clock and can be given haste and regeneration. Not to mention he only cost 5 mana and is easily castable without Kaalia.

    I just got my hands on a copy of him recently and I think I'll test him in the deck for a while since I like the art so much.

    The problem with running Skittles is that, like you said, he doesn't really help with Kaalia's primary game plan. Because of that, he eats up a slot that you could be using to play someone who gives you much more versatile removal. If life gain is a problem for you, I heavily suggest running Erebos since he acts as an indestructible way to draw cards and has the neat side effect of denying life gain for your opponents.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from 3drinks
    I wouldn't play MoC in multiplayer at all. It's just not strong enough to be worth a slot for "Whenever ~ kills a player, ~ gains Defender for the rest of the game."

    I actually go back to playing Avacyn in that scenario, heh.

    No, I totally believe preach that. I'm just saying I'd consider him a little more if he had natural evasion....of course, that'd be a little TOO crazy. :p
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from ajprokos
    It is a great threat tool. Almost an on-site-required-kill. I use it mainly to slow down whoever is pumping out creatures or ramp. Aiming for the little guy does nothing.

    My problem is that he doesn't really have any sort of evasion. If they're already pumping out guys, isn't it likely that he'll just be chump blocked? If he naturally had flying, I'd consider him a little more because then he'd just block everything all day.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Olivia's Banquet
    Quote from xitaun
    infact, liliana's specter is more reliable, but it doesn't do much with many players on the table. i'm really interested in punishing players drawing a lot of cards, because rakdos can't do that most times. the same is valid for liliana's reaver, order opf yawgmoth and fiend of the shadows and okiba-gnga shinobi (he's beter but you don't have a lot of creatures to ninjutsu into)

    i dunno about you money restraints, but my idea is to search for a mass discard, which is sire of insanity or mindslicer and cast as fast as possible, then win with grindy stuff. note that vampiric tutor's card disadvantage is neglected by the mass discard.

    after you wipe hands, olivia can control the board given sufficient mana, which is provided by liliana of the dark realms, thawing glaciers, phyrexian arena.

    of course, you could go in direction of a less opressive build, but since you did not specify a lot your goal, this is my take on olivia (i don't have it, just my plans)

    also, some cards that i think that just don't do much:Skullcage, wheel of torture, quietus spike, annihilating fire, undercity plague, lavaborn muse, pain magnification, painful quandry, sulfuric vortex: note that vortex hurs you too, and you have few ways to defend yourself early. i'd add some, thoguh i don't know a lot of cards to do that (one is phyrexian rager, maybe?)

    My goal isn't to punish players who draw a lot of cards, so much as it's to slowly nickel and dime them for damage because I've destroyed their hands entirely. Smile

    I love Sire of Insanity a lot in this deck, and I've since gotten a second one to go in here after the first got upgraded to Kaalia's deck.

    The general idea of the deck was to create a slow and torturous game for everyone else as I get rid of their answers and options and let Olivia control the board. All of the cards you don't think do much actually pull a ton of weight for me and have won me plenty of games. They're deceptively good for this build.

    That reminds me...I need to update this deck at some point. ^^;
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [[Primer]] Kaalia's New World Order
    Quote from bigbearlyke
    I haven't kept up with this thread so I don't know if he has ever been considered but what about the Master of Cruelties?

    I see him in a lot of Kaalia decks.

    I really like him in 1-v-1 builds, no question. I don't particularly care for him here just because getting to one-shot somebody isn't really enough to justify him when I have 2-3 other people to kill. It's a handly little trick, but I prefer to get more utility out of my card slots than to have a guy who's just going to end up blocking for me the rest of the game.

    That said...I could see myself trying him out in the future if I could figure out what I'd cut...
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Numot's Castle
    Quote from Blindcynic
    I play a very similar zedruu the great hearted list. My deck has been tuning for a relatively short time (since June), but I play it a lot.
    I run a heavy control raka build.

    I wanted to offer a few constructive criticisms. Take from them what you will.

    1. Dawn charm is better than safe passage. It counters spells like mind twist, bribery, and the like. It also fogs! Last but not least it can regenerate a creature.

    Personally, I prefer Safe Passage because it allows an opponent to kill everyone else BUT me when they go off with Molten Psyche or Insurrection. I ran the charm before, and I like it plenty. I just enjoy watching everyone else die more. Smile

    2. Ith, high arcanist should be swapped out for skull clamp. Skull clamp plus assemble the legion, elspeth, and mobilization is a boss. Though I recommend running more elspeth variations over mobilization. Don't even try sacred Mesa it sucks because it eats our mana.

    I haven't updated the list in quite a while, but Ith was cut a while ago. I don't run the clamp though. At times it seems like the deck draws more cards than I can play, and other times it doesn't draw nearly enough. I'm still tinkering when I get a chance to play this deck again (currently focusing on Gatecrash guilds/mono color decks).

    3. Cut spell book for library of leng, leng synergies with best red card in our colours: wild research! It is also good with gamble.

    I did end up cutting the book, but I do like this suggestion. I'm going to see if I can work it in somehow...

    4. Your build is control heavy like mine. You should consider things like goblin welder, wurmcoil engine, and sun titan.

    The Welder is a cool idea I hadn't seen before. I currently run Hanna for a similar purpose, but I like the redundancy. I have added the wurmcoil engine, but I was surprised to find Sun Titan wasn't in the list already. ._. I've been on a mission to put him in every white deck I have, but I guess I missed one. I'll need to pick one up later.

    5. Land tax plus scroll rack is a thing.

    Unfortunately, not for me as I have a lack of Racks atm. Even then, my Riku/Maelstrom deck would get first dibs.

    6. Archaeomancer plus capsize is a thing

    Yes, but why do I want to spend six mana to get back something? I'd rather put out a Conjurer's Closet or use Dead-eye Navigator to recur my cards...how am I not already running that though...

    7. Aethersworn canonist, pure steel paladin, and copy artifact are all very good in your build.

    Copy Artifact is something I like a lot, but I don't actually feel like I want Ethersworn or the Paladin in this build. I don't really use artifacts as my main theme so the canonist hurts me more than I'd like and I don't run as much equipment as I currently do. I REALLY need to update this list...

    8. Stonecloaker is a white edh auto include. Wait tell they says target and exile it, bounce stonecloaker back to your hand. Controls all day.

    HOLD IT!!! Did you just call something an "auto-include"? That's a no-no, my friend. There are plenty of white decks that do not need nor want stonecloaker. Granted, my deck would benefit from some more graveyard hate, but if you're pairing white with cards of other colors that are already very strong in graveyard hate, I'd rather not be leaving three mana open for a source of graveyard hate that can be killed in response to its own trigger, especially when my ways of getting it back are very little.

    The kinds of cards I DO count as auto-includes are very, very small. Stonecloaker is a good card, but I would never consider it an auto-include or a staple.

    Quote from B1ind Fremen
    NECROOOOOOOOOooooo! (not rly)

    I've recently built my own Numot deck and your list looked like a good starting point. However, I've made a few changes. I'm super excited for this Commander 2013 card:

    Oh yeahhhhh...

    Theros has cards like Curse of the Swine, Elspeth, Sun's Champion, Anger of the Gods, Omenspeaker, Daxos of Meletis, Spear of Heliod, and Gods Willing that could potentially make the deck.

    Yes, I haven't gotten around to updating ANY of my wedge decks with the new Theros cards. It's a project that usually goes on for a month or two. Smile But there are definitely plenty of cards I want to run, no doubts about it.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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