MTG Salvation

I just heard from Patrick Sullivan on scg live who is one of the regular commentators of scg also said that brimaz is not that good against jeskai aggro. With jeskai aggro being all over the top tables of any major standard tournament, I am actually glad I decided against buying like two brimaz for my uw control and I was close to buying some like a couple of weeks ago.

I definitely think brimaz is really amazing in other decks like abzan aggro, jeskai aggro or naya since they can constantly apply a lot of pressure in supplement with brimaz but I do not think brimaz is a card that should be the in the sideboard for uw control IMO.

I mean people can still play brimaz in the board if they want to but I am not going to as long as jeskai aggro remains one of the top tier decks in standard and it will most likely for a pretty long time. I am not really a fan of boarding in cards that causes a liability in a matchup where it's suppose to be a card that you should bring in. That's just a recipe for losing, I know it seems obvious generally speaking but I don't think it's that obvious for a sideboard card like brimaz considering it's a great threat. But there is a reason why high profile pros say jeskai agro is considered to be the best deck in standard, considering, jeskai has so many angles of attack and it's able to trump a lot of cards in post sideboard games.

However, I do think uw control is still a viable choice for any given tournament and so I think it's definitely possible for uw control to adapt to jeskai especially in major tournaments.

Quote from Iron_Blood »

Quote from Kevinliu »

I really like how you can go budget with uw control and it'll probably be pretty good still. Even though, i'd still recommend the budget list have at least two elspeths in the maindeck, elsepth is definitely really good. I mean you don't have to have Elspeth but I do recommend at least two. However, if you really can't afford them then that's fine really.

On other news, I have been testing out Jeremy bylanders uw control list a good amount but the sideboard is 2 prognostic sphinx and second resolute archangel instead of 2 brimaz and 1 wingmate roc and I have been winning quite a bit of postboard games through testing on cockatrice with those changes so I have been pretty happy about that.

S

What is the theory behind having Prognostic sphinx in the sb instead of the white creatures? The white creatures are mainly for control and red decks.

There isn't as much of a theory behind running prognostic sphinx in the board instead it's more of a practical reason for me. I just like prognostic sphinx quite a bit against jeskai agro since you can block mantis rider or even a sarkhan if you choose too. Also as you noticed Jeremy bylander lost to jeskai agro in the finals of the last scg while playing uw control. So all I am trying to do is improve on that matchup with uw control and that's the only thing that should matter here since uw control evolving is one of the keys to success for a dedicated control deck. Sure brimaz is great and I am not doubting his power but it's actually pretty important to keep your life total high against jeskai aggro because they can always cast like 12 points of burn on you in like a couple of turns so being able to block sarkhan and mantis rider is pretty nice and yeah you have devouring light but it's always good to have additional help in that department too. It actually wouldn't surprise me in the least for jeskai aggro to adopt prognostic sphinx either in the maindeck or sideboard to gain leverage against the mirror which is important since it's a popular deck in standard.

Although, I gotta admit that raise the alarms are pretty sweet though and can even be a pretty great alternative for a lot of things you could add in the maindeck or the sideboard, I've seen a uw control list that got top 4 at one of the scg states tournament ran a couple of them. They also can be pretty nice with devouring light and you can cast them at instant speed to chump block something which is pretty nice. With that being said, brimaz is definitely really good but it isn't the end all be all type of the card, pimpdonny is one of the examples of living proof that you do not need brimaz in the deck and he's been doing pretty well on mtgo with uw control for almost a month now. Of course, I definitely think there are a ton of lists you can choose from here for a tournament. This thread is definitely a pretty big knowledge pool for type 2 uw control with khans. Plus I like raise the alarm quite a bit against mono red because the instant speed gets by the hammerhand mechanic and blocking two of their guys can be pretty huge which can also be more effective then brimaz in the matchup because they either have stoke or hammerhand to impair it for a turn so it can't block. Which is definitely a position you do not want to be in considering, usually when you use your mana you want to be doing relevant things with that mana and when a fast deck is able to trump the play that you just made when you tap out that's a pretty big tempo swing for them.

Also, yeah i'd highly suggest your uw control list as well pimpdonny for a scg open event or probably even a gp as well. You can definitely get in a lot of really meaningful playtesting by just spending a lot of time playing on magic online. Not saying that my playtesting sessions are not helpful though but being able to play on mtgo instead of on cockatrice definitely has advantages.

Oh and one more thing, I don't think you need wingmate roc either in the board, I still like the card a lot but I wasn't as nearly sold on it as I once was which is like 2 weeks ago. Also, I love the gainsays in the board, I think gainsay is underrated right now actually and i'd board them in against jeskai aggro because sure it doesn't counter their sarkhans but countering, jeskai charm, dig through time and mantis rider as well as their opposing counters seems like a pretty big deal.

Edit: I would also would like to say that raise the alarms are pretty amazing, they remind me of when I used to play lingering souls in esper control back when innistrad was legal in standard, they saved me from dying many times and have also won me many games as well. I see the same quality and utility in raise the alarm as well I mean they don't have flashback but it's still really useful for two mana that can also be casted at instant speed.

I really like how you can go budget with uw control and it'll probably be pretty good still. Even though, i'd still recommend the budget list have at least two elspeths in the maindeck, elsepth is definitely really good. I mean you don't have to have Elspeth but I do recommend at least two. However, if you really can't afford them then that's fine really.

On other news, I have been testing out Jeremy bylanders uw control list a good amount but the sideboard is 2 prognostic sphinx and second resolute archangel instead of 2 brimaz and 1 wingmate roc and I have been winning quite a bit of postboard games through testing on cockatrice with those changes so I have been pretty happy about that.

Quote from ZooGambler »

Quote from Kevinliu »

Just call the archetype uw control, I don't think there is that much of a difference between the two honestly for this standard IMO, I mean for example you tend to hold up mana if you have countermagic and tapout to play divination or end hostilities if you don't. So technically both versions can play draw-go even if one of them isn't designed to be a draw-go uw control deck.

I was going to include both in the single thread. I just wanted to mention in the primer that there is a distinction between each version (even if it's minor).

Commenting on Jeremy's deck and previous iterations of some of our lists, I still wonder about how good Wingmate Roc is in our deck. It can't protect itself and doesn't trade with Sarkhan, Stormbreath, or even Siege Rhino. It seems like normally we won't be swinging with creature constantly so the raid trigger won't be too reliable and I think we have sufficent life gain as it is, so I believe the Thune-esque ability still isn't enough to warrant inclusion.

It does combo well with Brimaz I suppose and could have a place when sided both in together against aggro? What am I not seeing?

oh okay, cool, that's fine with me(referring to the primer).

After playing quite a few sideboarded games with uw control, I don't think wingmate roc(I do include just one though in my sideboard.) is actually needed, I think the maindeck in general is forming up good but the sideboard is pretty much anything that your worry about to be honest or anything that you worried about or to add to supplement the maindeck. I don't believe you actually need either brimaz or wingmate roc in the sideboard for it to be an effective sideboard which is also good news for the people that are on somewhat of a budget. At least that's how I see it. I mean I saw an mtgo uw control list that went 3-1 with four seeker of the ways instead of the 2 brimaz/2 wingmate roc split and I could see that being pretty good when you want to play threats earlier to stall the board which actually is a pretty good plan against a good amount of decks. So yeah, sideboard can be pretty much anything you want that would make sense.

Actually the maindeck is totally customizable as well, so I do not believe there is a wrong way to go about building uw control which is great. That's what I like about uw control, the design space for it is really large.

For me though, I am just fine boarding in two more prognostic sphinx and a second resolute archangel against jeskai aggro. Resolute archangel and a playset of prognostic sphinx has been amazing for me in playtesting against jeskai especially since the uw control's late game is generally better then what they can muster at that stage. The uw control list I am referring to is just about the same decklist that pimpdonny's list that he has been playing on mtgo.

Edit: I will be going to an fnm next week sometime should be fun and was thinking about playing uw control.

Quote from ZooGambler »

So what are we calling each archetype? Because the opening post is much different from our draw-go style decks. They each play differently as well, though I'd appreciate some elaboration and input from the group on each play style. It would be a nice addition to the primer in process.

Just call the archetype uw control, I don't think there is that much of a difference between the two honestly for this standard IMO, I mean for example you tend to hold up mana if you have countermagic and tapout to play divination or end hostilities if you don't. So technically both versions can play draw-go even if one of them isn't designed to be a draw-go uw control deck. I mean yes, I agree that the playstyles can definitely be different but I think they are still close enough to where we can have it all in one thread. This thread is more of a general "uw control" thread and so uw control players with different playstyles can share and discuss their lists in this thread as well.

As for a brief elaboration from me, the draw-go control deck tends to run more cards that can be played on their opponent's turn so the player just says go after they have drawn a card and played a land for the turn.

Although, if you want to know a true draw-go control deck in standard it's actually ub control since it does a lot of things on the opponents turn like activate perilious vault or counterspell something or even playing a hero's downfall on a stormbreath dragon that just resolved. I mean yeah you tend to tap out sometimes just to play perilious vault or drown in sorrow but those cards are meant to make the game go longer to where then you can continue to play draw-go.

UW control made top 8 in the hands of Jeremy bylander at SCG minneapolis, the list is actually not too far off from my updated uw control list on the opening page. Of course it ran a couple of brimaz along with a couple of wingmate rocs in the sideboard. I'd definitely would of had brimaz in my sideboard if I could afford them in real life as I mentioned before.

Yeah, as i said from the start, uw control is pretty well positioned against alot in standard, ub control is by far this deck's hardest matchup but that's okay at least we are pretty solid overall though. I probably wouldn't of made this thread if I didn't think uw control could compete in this new standard but it definitely has what it takes to succeed.

I mean, yes I admit ub control is looming pretty large over uw control as the default control deck in standard but that doesn't mean that uw control doesn't have a place in standard. Considering, it definitely does have a place and I definitely like at where it's at right now in standard and as the format continues to evolve so will UW control IMO. Also, as ub control continues to get popular, there will be other players that will gun for ub control which will give uw control an good opportunity to shine in standard once again.

Also, yeah gainsay is useful against jeskai ascendancy combo as well. There is plenty of uses you can get from boarding in gainsay. For now even though I like what decklists people have been posting, I think I am just going to stick to what I have built as far as uw control is concerned which is close to the my list on the opening page which generally is pretty close to what everyone else is posting anyway.

I really like your list and congrats on the fnm. Crippling chill seems like a great card against temur since it taps down haste creatures and by the time it untaps I am sure you have cards that can answer it if need be plus you get to draw a card from it which is significant. So I am definitely not surprised to see you go 2-0 against temur and you also have devouring lights too. I mean it's a small sample size of games to be certain but the results certainly show promise and that's what you want to see as a uw control player.

I personally think your list seems like a pretty good direction to go from here for uw control. I also wouldn't be surprised to see you consistently defeat boss sligh opponents with your list as well, font of vigor does seems insane there.

I gotta admit I didn't really like font of vigor at first but with boss sligh running around everywhere at every major standard tournament, font of vigor is definitely a good card to have in the board.

I also don't see any problem with beating any of the abzan lists either with your deck. So great job on the list and keep it up.

Also, I agree with pimpdonny that with temur running around it seems necessary to replace divinations with font of fortunes. After seeing kibler a bit on camera wrecking people at GPLA with his temur deck round after round I am sure it's actually required to have a solid game against temur with uw control because others have been picking the deck up also.

I definitely believe uw control will be an contender in the future of standard because uw control seems to strive when the format is more developed. But this standard format so far has been a brewer's format that's for sure.

Quote from ZooGambler »

Though I don't post all the time, I have been following the thread closely and would love to write a primer, I have one for W/x Heroics that I could base it off, explaining card choices, example deck lists, the different builds, etc. I also edit the primer often to keep it updated. Would you like me to create one?

Yeah for sure, but yeah just ask a moderator to edit the opening post of this thread with this primer and perhaps you and pimpdonny could work together on writing this uw control primer but yeah just ask a mod to edit the opening post of this thread with the primer. I just want to keep this thread going as there seems to be interesting discussion about uw going on already.

Quote from PimpDonny »

Font is solid as well and would be happy to run them tho a 2-2 split has served me well in the past and presetly I run 2-2 as 4 divination is to much for m t3 play but having 2 is the sweet spot.

And I wish I could write the primer, but I am terrible at writing large posts as essays and the like have never been my thing, I could try it and go from there tho, maybe I will next week as I'm off on vaction So I'll have sometime.

2-2 split between font and divination definitely seems to have some versatility behind it I've never tried that configuration but I wouldn't be too surprised if it works out well.

Oh and you should definitely give it a go you definitely have my permission and anyone else that posts here regularly or has plenty of knowledge on uw control has my permission too. I am also not against anyone that wants to work together so there is that option. Unfortunately, I still won't be able to help though.

Well, also UB is not at all like UW control either as adding both thoughtseize and despise changes the way a dedicated control deck plays out entirely IMO. There is definitely pros and cons to both control decks but I generally prefer uw control because of resolute archangel, Elspeth and end hostilities and when you combine that with card draw and countermagic it makes it an attractive control alternative option from ub for tournament play.

Don't get me wrong though, UB control is also a powerful and consistent control deck and a lot of people play it in big tournaments and put up great results with it(definitely much more so then uw for sure). I definitely like ub control and I wouldn't mind playing that too in any large standard event. For now though, I am still on uw as familiarity is definitely one of the keys to success in magic.

Also, I definitely approve of font of fortunes and it's definitely not out of the ordinary if anyone decides to go with fonts instead of divination in uw. I've played with either of them in uw before and while I still prefer divination it's definitely fine if you decide to go with font of fortunes instead.

I agree, I definitely like divination as it smooths out your future draws and lets you make your land drops. I was also playing around with some of the draw-go lists in this thread but I also definitely miss divination. I don't think there is anything wrong with going back to divinations.

It's also great to see people still putting up pretty solid results with uw control. I definitely would like for this trend to continue and I have a good feeling that it will continue.

Edit: Also, I think it's about time this thread has a detailed primer with general sideboarding guides, history of the deck, matchup analysis and so on. I would definitely would love to write one but I have been pretty busy with college and other things. If you would like to write one then go ahead you have my support and when your done with it you can ask a moderator to edit the primer into the opening post of this thread which would be great.

Quote from delfam »

Quote from Controllish »

I honestly do not like PLA. I tried him for about 2 weeks and he was always more of a hassle than a help. Angel even if someone nukes her, it's ok I am at 20 again. Just cast Elspeth with protection and I haven't ran into any issues. But if you like PLA more i wouldn't argue just cut a Elspeth or angel and put 2 in if you like. He is good and win's games quickly. I just don't like the interactions with all the removal flying around.

can you go over your results on MODO and some of the matchups?

I'm going to an IQ this week and am considering U/W control or R/G Monsters. I'm leaning monsters right now since it is better vs Boss Sligh, which I'm expecting a lot of.

I don't think uw control has that bad of a matchup against boss sligh either, i think it's fairly decent, you definitely have the tools like fleece rams and last breaths. I mean sure they can have really disgusting openings that is really hard to beat but this goes for just about the entire format not just uw control so that's a given. I will be on uw control at my next big standard event because it's the deck i am the most familiar with and gives me the best chance to do well. I won't fault you if you go for GR monsters since it's a great deck. I mean it's nice to have more people play uw control but people can definitely play whatever they want. I just made this thread mainly to give people more options to choose from as far as competitive standard decks are concerned.

Yeah, pearl lake ancient makes sense with perilious vault but I think it's fine that controllish's list doesn't play pearl lake mostly because you can wait to activate vault and then deploy Elspeth after the board is clear and that can work fine.

I've been adopting a more of a draw go version that plays both weave fate and jace's inguinity(got this idea from this thread). I trimmed down the deck to just two banishing lights, I am running zero elspeths because I find them to be lackluster against jeskai aggro in testing, they can easily kill it with a burn spell followed by a mantis rider or sarkhan, in it's place I am playing two pearl lake ancients and one resolute archangel instead. I just want to be playing only end hostilities, banishing light or resolute archangel on my turn while majority of the time holding up mana for instant speed plays.

I have been liking the draw-go version a lot more then my previous versions of this deck. IMO though I just find it to be pretty dangerous to be a tapout deck in this standard. The only way a tapout deck make sense would be a deck like abzan midrange or GR monsters where they have something relevant to play on each turn of the game that impacts the board(sylvan carytid and courser are great examples obv). Of course, this is how I play uw control generally anyway is to be a draw-go player and I am usually pretty conservative when I play control. For those of you that still like playing elspeths in uw control I still think it's quite fine, I just like to try out slightly different approaches and sometimes I like to experiment with how far I can take uw control into the draw-go realm.

Here is the list:




I am definitely thinking about moving some devouring lights to the main and replacing the banishing lights for them since I think the less I want to tapout on my turn the better it is especially on turn 3(and at times turn 2 if I have negate/nullify in hand) and beyond. But yeah the deck has been testing pretty well so far. I also would like to note that this particular version is a game 1 type of deck so you should definitely try to win game 1 everytime and then just stay alive long enough in game 2 considering this deck doesn't have that many win conditions. I believe this is still a viable strategy in standard IMO. One last thing though is I definitely wouldn't recommend people taking the above list to a major tournament but I probably would be crazy enough to try it myself though at a big event, considering that's the kind of player I am but I would only do this with control though.