This seems like a great idea to me.
I do think that the main limitation for this idea is just how to present it to people in a packaged product. Cards like these could not be printed in a regular set, so they would have to be in the dedicated command sets, but then they would have to be the flagship cards of that set. For example, if you are going to have a Commander that can use off-colour Curses, you are going to want to include some of them in the deck, but then you have these cards that cannot be used with any other legendary creatures in the deck.
I think this would work for some cool lesser known theme cards, like the Curses, or some smaller, spread-out tribes, but a single cycle or two of these commanders would be all that you need. It is not a lot of design space, but you could make some interesting commanders out of it.
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Mar 13, 2018Cheethorne posted a message on Should Wizards make commanders that can break color identity rules?Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Jan 2, 2018I like Mill decks, but I prefer to work with Phenax, God of Deception.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Eater of the Dead is a great card to win the game very quickly against a single opponent, especially if you have milled them or cleared the board a few times first so they have a few creatures already in there to work with. A milling strategy generally only works on one player at a time, but if you know who to target first, you can hit them pretty hard and remove them in an interesting fashion.
One reason I like Mill decks is that they allow you to attack the format in a way that is not expected and that keeps things fresh for me.
Dec 6, 2017Crovax, Ascendant Hero is very similar to Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. It costs 1 less, has synergy with the life gain parts of the deck, but only gives a -1/-1 penalty and then only to non-white creatures, including my own. I just don't see the value unless there is another card to take out for it.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Treasonous Ogre is a good card that can generate quite a lot of mana for the deck. We are not going for any kind of combo with that extra mana, but since we often have a lot of life to work with, it could be useful in the deck.
Axis of Mortality is interesting to me because of the repeatable effect which can give me lots of life gain, as you describe, but it doesn't have to switch between me and another player. On turns when there is no life for me to gain from a switch, I can simply switch other players' life totals around as I see fit. I like that.
Oketra's Last Mercy is cheap, with lots of life gain potential, but if I have lots of life already, it is just a dead card that does nothing. The card above continues to be useful even when I have lots of life, where this one does not.
Dec 4, 2017I like quite a few of the suggestions made here and I am going to try them out the next time I play.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Here are the cards I am going to be changing from the deck list posted above.
It is hard to figure out what to take out since I made the deck and I certainly tried to make the best deck possible. Cards like Blind Obedience and Aura of Silence are quite good, but something has to go. If other people have suggestions of what to take out instead, I am open to ideas.
InMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards 1 Canyon Slough
1 Brion Stoutarm
1 Urabrask the Hidden
1 Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter
1 Chandra's Ignition
1 Boon Reflection
1 Spirit Loop
1 Unspeakable Symbol
If these changes work out, I will change the original post to reflect the new deck list.
Dec 3, 2017I definitely recommend those life lands in exchange for the expensive lands in the original list, along with the Kabira Crossroads.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I played this deck at our recent Commander night and it was quite a lot of fun. There was a lot of life gain in the deck and it worked out well. I never drew Chandra's Ignition, but playing the deck showed how powerful it would be had I drawn it.
One game, there were a few turns when no other players had removal that they wanted to spend against me and I had both Licia, Sanguine Tribune in play along with Brion Stoutarm. I swung with Licia against a particular player, and she had six extra +1/+1 counters on her (three from last turn and three more from this turn), gaining me 10 life, and then I could throw her at that same player with Brion, gaining me 10 more life, and then I could replay her for just RWB. It was quite fun.
I did draw Karlov and the deck does lack the frequent life gain triggers that make him shine and I am wondering if he and the Archangel of Thune are even worth their slots in the deck. One game with Karlov he sat on my board for three turns without me gaining any life until I finally gained five life in a single chunk and he gained just two +1/+1 counters. Given the way the deck work, I think I might be better off with a card like Tithe Drinker or something like that that can give me more life in a single turn to work with Licia or a Cradle of Vitality. The Archangel is a harder sell since it does give a benefit to my entire board, but again, there might be cards that are just better given the more infrequent nature of the life gain triggers.
Nov 26, 2017Posted in: Multiplayer Commander DecklistsQuote from darrenhabib »Still Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter gives you a reason to keep recasting Licia, Sanguine Tribune, as you can just make him large on his own, and at least has flying so some evasion. The threat of being able to kill a creature at will, often changes decisions of people playing out there own combo creatures for fear of getting killed.
Well reasoned and it is another creature with lifelink, which goes along with what the deck is doing. I think I'll find some room for it in the deck.
Wow, that could be a lot of life gain with the right creature. I think I just missed the synergy between it and a lifelink creature. I will definitely have to find room for it in the deck.
Nov 26, 2017I like Brion Stoutarm. It has lifelink and can give me something to do with a high power Licia. That's nice.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I've always been unsure about cards like Ad Nauseam. I've seen it used in dedicated combo decks where the intention is that you draw most of the cards in your deck with it or all of the cards if you are going for something like Angel's Grace, but in a deck like this what should the goal be? Is it treated as a way to full the hand back up since we will likely have the life to pay for that?
I wish Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter could be more pinpoint with his removal power. You lose all of the +1/+1 counters to get rid of one thing.
Nov 24, 2017Licia, Life of the PartyPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I like life gain decks and I've built a few of them over the years using Oloro, Ageless Ascetic and Karlov of the Ghost Council and others, but Licia, Sanguine Tribune offers something unique among them. Most life gain decks either want to have a high life total or want to have frequent life gains, but a Licia deck wants to gain large chunks of life during your turn in order to cast and recast the Commander as cheaply as possible. This presented an interesting deck building challenge as some typical life gain cards, like Soul Warden, are not as useful in this deck as in other life gain decks.
Mana Base: With a Mardu-land base, I decided to go with what I had, which is fetch lands, dual lands, and Ravnica's shock lands. However, there are a number of other lands that could go in those places along with more basic lands.
Creatures: There are plenty of lifelink creatures to help you gain big chunks of life, like Baneslayer Angel, Blood Baron of Vizkopa, and Serra Ascendant. There are also a few general utility cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite and Weathered Wayfarer to help the deck out. There are a few good creatures that still trigger off of multiple life gain triggers with Karlov of the Ghost Council and Archangel of Thune, but I felt they were too good not to include in the deck.
Spells: Beyond a mix of card draw and removal spells, the deck features some cards to enhance the life gain theme with Alhammarret's Archive and Venser's Journal, along with one game winning combo with Exquisite Blood + Sanguine Bond. Again, the deck is trying to balance a mix of big life gain with small, multiple triggers by including Blind Obedience, Bloodchief Ascension, and Sun Droplet. Cradle of Vitality is good in the deck as it allows you to translate large life gains into a large number of +1/+1 counters for a small cost.
This has been an interesting deck to build and try out, but I feel I don't have the balance quite right on the big life gains vs. small triggers, and I am still trying to work that out.
Comments and thoughts are welcome.
Nov 9, 2017Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Iansisle »I, for one, certainly hope that the people with the proper credentials to conduct one have much, much better things to do with their time.
I disagree with this. People with the proper "tools" to conduct a market survey like this are simply hired by companies like WotC. And even if the Rules Committee has not shown much interest in this idea at the moment, WotC has the money and the reach to conduct a survey of this nature to determine whether this is a good idea or not. They already know how popular or not popular their current roster of planeswalkers are among the public and knowing whether this idea is popular or not could be valuable for them.
The last time they released planeswalkers as commanders was with relatively unknown people, but imagine if they wanted to do a new set that did the same thing but with the Gatewatch at the helm, knowing whether this would be popular or not would be important to them. Once you are thinking along these lines, it is not a huge leap between a second set of planeswalkers that can be Commanders and a rule change that would allow all planeswalkers to be commanders.
Nov 9, 2017Cheethorne posted a message on Wizards needs to own Commander with some format friendly rulingsWhile I think it is easy to explain that some legendary non-creatures are more obvious as commanders than others (like Genju of the Realms vs. Day of Destiny), I don't like just adding such things to the rules on a case by case basis.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
There is no unifying thing that would explain why some non-legendary creatures should be allowed as commanders (Chromanticore) and why some non-creatures should be allowed. Just like there is no way to easily allow players to use Suspend from the Command Zone for Ith, High Arcanist or to allow players to discard Haakon, Stromgald Scourge from the command zone.
While I think you can combine all of the planeswalkers and let them be allowed as a group, that doesn't really apply to individual cards on a case by case basis and I don't think the rules should be modified to allow it. I definitely think House Rules are the way to go with these individual cards.
Oct 12, 2017I do agree that most standard mechanics / themes should be represented by legendary creatures, and for the most part, WotC does a good job of this. It gets a little tricky with a tribal block like Ixalan, because which is more important a tribal leader or a mechanical leader. For example, the legendary dinosaur in Ixalan, Gishath, Sun's Avatar, does not have Enrage, but it very clearly works well in a deck full of dinosaurs. However, some mechanics also do not lend themselves well to being on a Commander, like Revolt from AEther Revolt.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
That said, a lack of an Energy-based commander, one that generates and/or uses energy is clearly a let down. I want us to go back to Kaladesh relatively quickly in order to get more energy cards and to get an energy commander. While there were energy-based cards in all colours, the Temur colour combination has the most of all the colours (white: 7, blue: 14, black: 7, red: 10, green: 14) and all gold cards fit into the same combination. I think it would make sense for the energy-based legendary creature would also be Temur. I could see it only being UG, but it would not seem strange for it to include Red.
Sep 19, 2017I have always been a fan of the shoals. I've loved Shining Shoal since I first saw it printed. It also works well with the deck with the decent number of white cards in the deck, as does the Sickening Shoal. I don't often play them for free, but the option is there when I need it and the trickery you can do with Shining Shoal is not to be underestimated.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I looked at Fist of Suns, but for the most part I think I would rather play a regular mana acceleration card in its place, like Chromatic Lantern, Commander's Sphere, Coalition Relic, or Coldsteel heart. While the idea of dropping the cost of the expensive cards to five mana is nice, it doesn't fix our mana and at times that is going to be more important. It is a close thing and I think if I made room for all five Myojins I would consider it more.
Sep 15, 2017Wow, Moonlit Strider is quite cool. I like that its sacrifice ability also gives me an on-demand Soulshift ability.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I can also easily see taking out Ghost-Lit Redeemer, it is not very high impact, even if you do get lucky and you can drop it early for some life gain.
I'm not sure if locking down a creature with Dungeon Geists is better than permanently taking control of one with Keiga, the Tide Star, but it is cheaper, which is helpful in a top-heavy deck.
I do also like Kami of False Hope. With just some recursion going on, it can provide quite a bit of protection to your life total.
Sep 15, 2017Thank you.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I thought about the Hondens, but they just have no mechanical synergy with Spirits or Arcane spells. While including them would be fun, especially when you can get two or three of them out at a time, I was trying to go for a deck that was more spirit and arcane based, and not just fun Kamigawa cards.
As it was, I had to lose most of the arcane cards to make room for the spirits I did include. I am especially sad about not making room for Horobi's Whisper, a great arcane removal spell.
Sep 15, 2017O-Kagachi, Spirit TribalPosted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
While Kamigawa block is not known to have a lot of really strong cards, the spirit tribe, along with its arcane magic, has a lot of interesting potential. However, seeing that their creatures and magic was spread over all five colours, it was hard to create a good Commander deck that didn't feel like it was cutting off a lot of potential cards and the Blue / White spirit tribe from Innistrad only had Geist of Saint Traft as a potential Commander. In fact, Kamigawa block has only one legendary creature that was more than one colour, Iname as One, which pushed the deck in a combo direction and still had limited colour selection. I think a lot of the inclination to get Genju of the Realm to be considered a legendary creature is from this lack of other options for a viable spirit-tribal commander.
If it was designed and released today, I am sure there would have been more 2, 3, and 5 colour spirit legendary creatures in Kamigawa block. The block was designed during a time that felt that "starving" the environment of things before a set featuring them was released was a good idea. In this case, Ravnica was right around the corner, so they "starved" standard of gold cards right before its release. Kamigawa block and spirits had a second problem in that it was released just after the overpowered Mirrodin block, which is often a time when they tone down the power-level to provide a kind of reset to the format once the over-powered block rotates out, so most cards are not very strong individually.
Entering into this mix, we have O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami, a 5-colour spirit legendary creature, the perfect Commander for a spirit tribal deck.
Mana Base: Playing a five colour deck is going to be hard, no matter what you do. If you have the cards, the dual lands are great, but recently WotC have been printing more lands with two land types, giving players more options here with a cycle of allied-coloured lands from Battle for Zendikar and Amonkhet. If you have the fetch lands, they are also really good, but there are alternatives that can get the job done in a pinch, like the cycle of slower fetchlands from Mirage, like Bad River and more general fetching cards like Terramorphic Expanse and Ash Barrens. It has probably never been easier to make a 5-colour mana base. I happen to have one of each of the dual lands and fetch lands, so I have them in the deck. I also put in a few five colour lands, but there are more that could be included, along with more basic lands.
Creatures: Lots of spirits! I tried to have a good mix of spirits that trigger when you play other spirits or arcane spells, like Elder Pine of Jukai and Petalmane Baku, and spirits that are just good on their own, like Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit, Kagemaro, First to Suffer, and Taurean Mauler.
I have found the Onna spirits, like Nikko-Onna and Haru-Onna, to be especially good. When you can get them along with a cost reduction artifact, like Urza's Incubator, they can provide a great source of repeatable spirit trigger and their "enter the battlefield" abilities are good for the deck. I wish I had found room for Kemuri-Onna, but I could not decide what to take out for it.
Spells: Nearly every spell in the deck is Arcane, which means they are a little slower than what you could otherwise get, but they trigger a good number of abilities on your spirits and the uses of Splice onto Arcane are real.
Possible Includes: There are numerous spirits and spells that didn't make the cut into my first played version of this deck, from Banshee of the Dread Choir, Selfless Spirit, and Niblis of Frost to Promise of Bunrei and Patriarch's Bidding (too many other tribal decks in my local metagame).
I feel like I am at the point where I have a deck filled with lots of interesting synergy, but I'm not sure what to take out to increase the overall power of the deck. I know the deck would be better with cards like Demonic Tutor and Rhystic Study, but trying to decide which of my other cards is simply worse than they are is difficult. Those cards are individually powerful, but offer no other synergies with the deck, while an individual spirit like Forked-Branch Garami might not look that powerful, it has the potential to trigger one or more other creatures in play and when it dies, because creatures always die, it could get me back two spirits from my graveyard, which is pretty strong.
Comments and thoughts are welcome.
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