I haven't successfully sleeved an EDH deck in almost a year, although I think about deck ideas constantly. I have a bunch of decks that I'd like to make, but the brewing process usually goes like this:
1. Come up with deck concept/theme
2. Make a list of any card I could ever possibly want in the deck (usually winds up being between 125-175 cards)
3. Try to make a deck on paper using the card list I created.
4. Get overwhelmed, distracted, discouraged and abandon the concept.
5. Go back to step 1.
Does anyone have a suggestion about how to overcome this?
Looking for cards like Mirari's Wake that gives a bonus to creatures WHILE helping mana development. Also looking for cards that do the same for draw. Anything come to mind?
I'm considering building a variation of this deck, but in Boros and the commander is Gisela, Blade of Goldnight. The downside is losing access to black spells and that she can be threatening on her own. She does encourages others to smack each other up and makes my direct damage spells twice as punishing though. Also seems like it would be fun to draw Overblaze or Battle Mastery late in the game with her out.
I also just noticed that Toil // Trouble is interesting in this deck. Works similarly to Sudden Impact, but can draw you some cards if you need them. Sorcery speed is a drawback though.
Karmic Justice seems like a good way to protect yourself and your defenses.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why no Boneyard Wurm, Mortivore, or Lhurgoyf? Do you have enough better threats already without them?
Also, how good has Creeping Renaissance been, and what card type do you normally choose? I assume most of the time you choose "creature," but are able to put so many creatures back into your hand that you're forced to discard most of them (except the one or two threats you actually wanted) at end of turn, thus keeping your GY stocked?
I skipped on Boneyard Wurm, Mortivore and Lhurgoyf because they are just fatties. I opted for Golgari Grave-Troll, Sewer Nemesis, Splinterfright because they are fatties that also actively fill my graveyard, so they provide dual functionality. Lord of Extinction is also just a fatty, but since he counts all cards in all graveyards, he can get out of hand faster than any of the other mentioned creatures and threaten the entire table. I would rather use recursion on any of these four creatures than add Boneyard Wurm, Mortivore and/or Lhurgoyf.
I would say Creeping Renaissance is actually better for grabbing artifacts or enchantments than creatures. The deck wants to load the graveyard with guys, and sometimes your key non-creatures hit the graveyard too. Naming creatures would actually unravel the work done to load the graveyard in the first place, although discarding a bunch of creatures at the end of turn like you mentioned could work in some situations. Using it this way kind of functions like a non-entwined Tooth and Nail in this deck.
This cards works against all of the cycling and discard options in the deck. It also hurts that you aren't technically 'drawing' cards, so you cannot trigger dredge. I don't think it works here.
I'm curious why Jarad, Golgari LIch Lord is your commander. I don't know if it's taboo to question such a fundamental choice when commenting on a deck, but there it is.
Anyway, I built a graveyard deck and found Karador, Ghost Chieftain to be way more effective. Hell, Teneb, the Harvester was cool, too, because you could poke around anyone's graveyard. Anyway, it also opens you up to adding white, which has a lot of good cards for a deck this style.
I think Grisly Salvage deserves revisiting as a draw engine and graveyard fuel. Also, if you're hellbent on getting more uses out of it, try Reclaim or something.
Also, reconsider Vengeful Pharaoh. Destroying a creature that attacks you can be very discouraging to opponents (some of them, anyway). And if you have enough top-deck manipulation like Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top (hint hint) it doesn't matter if it goes to the top of your library anyway.
Karador and Teneb are cool. I don't think it's taboo to ask why someone selected a particular commander. I wanted to build Jarad because I like his three abilities. In a dredge deck he gets huge and can beat down, can turn your other guys into damage, and is hard to make disappear with his sac land ability.
1. Doesn't say "draw" on it, so doesn't trigger dredge.
2. If it, itself gets dredged (very possible), it sits in the graveyard and does absolutely nothing for the rest of the game.
3. It is not something that is easily repeatable in my deck.
Which leads me to:
Reclaim - If it gets dredged, it does nothing for the rest of the game. The only card in my list that can fetch this is Eternal Witness, and if I have an Eternal Witness ETB trigger on the stack I'm definitely not using it on Revive/Reclaim/etc.
Sylvan Library - I should probably play this, since it says "you may dredge two extra times this turn"
Sensei's Divining Top - I should probably run this too, considering the amount of dredge it's be able manufacture.
I just have a hard time cutting creatures for non-creatures with this deck. I want to dredge creatures away, not artifacts and enchantments. I want my artifacts and enchantments to push the gameplan ahead or support winning. For instance, after a board-wipe, I want to be able to grab Lightning Greaves from my graveyard and re-cast Jarad and swing in with lethal commander damage.
I disagree with Phyrexian Delver. It's no where near Gravedigger. It's Reanimate on a stick which is never bad. I say keep it.
I do think it may be good to drop The Scarab. It's not really doing too much and from my own experience, I'd much rather be using other options than scarab.
One card I really like is Fa'adiyah Seer. With dredge, it reads, tap dredge. It's very useful for filling the graveyard with resources or maybe getting you a land drop.
I love the idea of Fa'adiyah Seer. It not only says "tap: dredge", but "tap: (chance to smooth land drops), dredge", which is pretty nice. Good call!
You know what? I knew these cards existed, but decided that 2 colorless was too much for that ability. I am now looking at all of the other cards I have that cycle, and realize that it might be a good idea to include these as well. Thanks for the input!
Have you considered Witchbane Orb to protect yourself from targeted graveyard hate? Or maybe Pithing Needle naming the usual offender?
There are some questionable cards here.
Grave-Shell Scarab seems really slow and bad.
Phyrexian Delver is a bad Gravedigger and pretty low-impact for 5 mana.
Azusa just seems bad to me, you'll rarely care about her ability. You lack the card draw to really use this.
Also you may want to rethink some of your classifications (and I say this with regard to Cagebreakers). Stinkweed Imp, Greaves and Shambling Shell does not count as a "threat". Corpse Connoisseur isn't really a "threat" either so much as he fits in with your other tutors. Anyway the point is you may be fooling yourself into thinking you have more wincons than you really do.
In particular you are lacking in card draw which is required to really get the most out of Dredge so I would try to find a few more sources of card advantage if I were you. As a general observation I think you're trying to get a little too cute with some of your graveyard interactions and you should be looking for more power plays like the ones I listed above.
Good luck with it.
Thank you for your input. You make some interesting points that give me something to think about.
I have considered Witchbane Orb for the reasons you mentioned (hadn't thought about Pithing Needle.) I like the idea of Witchbane Orb more, since it protects against more than just graveyard hate. I haven't played this deck in my meta yet, and will see how it goes before playing anti-graveyard hate.
Grave-Shell Scarab could be on the cutting block, but it seems like it would be good since it's ability is a repeatable dredge engine.
Not sure how Phyrexian Delver is a bad Gravedigger when his ETB ability puts any creature from my graveyard directly into play. Gravedigger does not do that. Essentially, Phyrexian Delver is a Gravedigger + Reanimate, which to me looks and sounds like a 2-for-1.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking could get cut if she doesn't play out like I imagine. With the amount of dredge and fetchlands, having her in play with Crucible of Worlds means ton of lands on the battlefield for me. Granted, this is situational.
Also card advantage isn't synonymous with card draw. There are a slew of other cards in the deck that offer card advantage like Terastodon, Damnation, Sheoldred, etc. Also, any creature in this deck already has two functions, as they are relevant on and off the battlefield (they power up many fatties, including Jarad himself), so they are inherently card-advantageous.
This is another Jarad deck that wants to dump many things into the graveyard and win. I only wanted cards that were good in my graveyard, or cards worth digging into the graveyard for. Looking for some brutally harsh opinions and ways to make this list better.
1 Undercity Informer - Thought about it. Seems like I have better options.
1 Liliana Vess - Does nothing in the graveyard. Very few ways to recur it.
1 Liliana of the Veil - Does nothing in the graveyard. Very few ways to recur it. Abilities are so good that I still thinking about it. Was one of the last few cut.
I like the idea of G/W as it just seems like a SUPER fast way to build your life total, but W/B is intriguing because you can spend that life you gain to play powerful spells (Phyrexian Arena, Reanimate, Phyrexian Delver, etc).
1. Come up with deck concept/theme
2. Make a list of any card I could ever possibly want in the deck (usually winds up being between 125-175 cards)
3. Try to make a deck on paper using the card list I created.
4. Get overwhelmed, distracted, discouraged and abandon the concept.
5. Go back to step 1.
Does anyone have a suggestion about how to overcome this?
Looking for cards like Mirari's Wake that gives a bonus to creatures WHILE helping mana development. Also looking for cards that do the same for draw. Anything come to mind?
Karmic Justice seems like a good way to protect yourself and your defenses.
Gotcha - makes sense, although he does include Reverence.
Have you considered running Wild Ricochet, Ghostly Prison or Blazing Archon?
I skipped on Boneyard Wurm, Mortivore and Lhurgoyf because they are just fatties. I opted for Golgari Grave-Troll, Sewer Nemesis, Splinterfright because they are fatties that also actively fill my graveyard, so they provide dual functionality. Lord of Extinction is also just a fatty, but since he counts all cards in all graveyards, he can get out of hand faster than any of the other mentioned creatures and threaten the entire table. I would rather use recursion on any of these four creatures than add Boneyard Wurm, Mortivore and/or Lhurgoyf.
I would say Creeping Renaissance is actually better for grabbing artifacts or enchantments than creatures. The deck wants to load the graveyard with guys, and sometimes your key non-creatures hit the graveyard too. Naming creatures would actually unravel the work done to load the graveyard in the first place, although discarding a bunch of creatures at the end of turn like you mentioned could work in some situations. Using it this way kind of functions like a non-entwined Tooth and Nail in this deck.
This card is for grabbing Skullclamp, Lightninig Greaves, Crucible of Worlds or Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Necromancy, Greater Good, etc in one shot. It is nice because it can be used even if it gets dredged away. Overall, it is a pretty flexible card and has its uses.
This cards works against all of the cycling and discard options in the deck. It also hurts that you aren't technically 'drawing' cards, so you cannot trigger dredge. I don't think it works here.
Ghost Council of Orzhova
or
Obzedat, Ghost Council
Karador and Teneb are cool. I don't think it's taboo to ask why someone selected a particular commander. I wanted to build Jarad because I like his three abilities. In a dredge deck he gets huge and can beat down, can turn your other guys into damage, and is hard to make disappear with his sac land ability.
Drawbacks for Grisly Salvage:
1. Doesn't say "draw" on it, so doesn't trigger dredge.
2. If it, itself gets dredged (very possible), it sits in the graveyard and does absolutely nothing for the rest of the game.
3. It is not something that is easily repeatable in my deck.
Which leads me to:
Reclaim - If it gets dredged, it does nothing for the rest of the game. The only card in my list that can fetch this is Eternal Witness, and if I have an Eternal Witness ETB trigger on the stack I'm definitely not using it on Revive/Reclaim/etc.
Sylvan Library - I should probably play this, since it says "you may dredge two extra times this turn"
Sensei's Divining Top - I should probably run this too, considering the amount of dredge it's be able manufacture.
I just have a hard time cutting creatures for non-creatures with this deck. I want to dredge creatures away, not artifacts and enchantments. I want my artifacts and enchantments to push the gameplan ahead or support winning. For instance, after a board-wipe, I want to be able to grab Lightning Greaves from my graveyard and re-cast Jarad and swing in with lethal commander damage.
I love the idea of Fa'adiyah Seer. It not only says "tap: dredge", but "tap: (chance to smooth land drops), dredge", which is pretty nice. Good call!
You know what? I knew these cards existed, but decided that 2 colorless was too much for that ability. I am now looking at all of the other cards I have that cycle, and realize that it might be a good idea to include these as well. Thanks for the input!
Thank you for your input. You make some interesting points that give me something to think about.
I have considered Witchbane Orb for the reasons you mentioned (hadn't thought about Pithing Needle.) I like the idea of Witchbane Orb more, since it protects against more than just graveyard hate. I haven't played this deck in my meta yet, and will see how it goes before playing anti-graveyard hate.
Grave-Shell Scarab could be on the cutting block, but it seems like it would be good since it's ability is a repeatable dredge engine.
Not sure how Phyrexian Delver is a bad Gravedigger when his ETB ability puts any creature from my graveyard directly into play. Gravedigger does not do that. Essentially, Phyrexian Delver is a Gravedigger + Reanimate, which to me looks and sounds like a 2-for-1.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking could get cut if she doesn't play out like I imagine. With the amount of dredge and fetchlands, having her in play with Crucible of Worlds means ton of lands on the battlefield for me. Granted, this is situational.
Bloodgift Demon and Harvester of Souls are certainly cards I should be giving more thought to.
You are correct about the classifications. I have updated the OP. I still do think I have plenty of wincons in this deck:
As for card draw, I may find a way for Harvester of Souls and Bloodgift Demon, but for now:
Krosan Tusker - Draws a card
Yavimaya Elder - Draws a card
Grave-Shell Scarab - Draws a card and is repeatable.
Skullclamp - Draws a ton. Especially with Bloodghast and a host of other 1 toughness creatures in the deck.
Greater Good - Draws a ton of cards
Undead Gladiator - Draws a card, repeatable every turn
Unearth - Draws a card
Tranquil Thicket - Draws a card
Barren Moor - Draws a card
Also card advantage isn't synonymous with card draw. There are a slew of other cards in the deck that offer card advantage like Terastodon, Damnation, Sheoldred, etc. Also, any creature in this deck already has two functions, as they are relevant on and off the battlefield (they power up many fatties, including Jarad himself), so they are inherently card-advantageous.
Thanks again.
1 Life from the Loam
1 Hermit Druid
1 Azusa, Lost but Seeking
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Wirewood Guardian
1 Elvish Aberration
1 Twisted Abomination
1 Krosan Tusker
1 Yavimaya Elder
1 Diligent Farmhand
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Yavimaya Granger
1 Dawntreader Elk
1 Oracle of Mul-Daya
1 Fa'adiyah Seer
Card Draw
1 Skullclamp
1 Greater Good
1 Undead Gladiator
1 Bloodgift Demon
1 Sylvan Library
Card Selection/Recursion
1 Entomb
1 Buried Alive
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Hell's Caretaker
1 Rune-Scarred Demon
1 Eternal Witness
1 Genesis
1 Phyrexian Delver
1 Glissa the Traitor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necromancy
1 Reanimate
1 Unearth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Creeping Renaissance
1 Corpse Connoisseur
1 Shriekmaw
1 Bone Shredder
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Sheoldred, Whispering One
1 Acidic Slime
1 Terastodon
1 Sylvan Primordial
1 Damnation
1 Massacre Wurm
1 Living Death
1 Necroplasm
Threats
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Sewer Nemesis
1 Splinterfright
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Filth
1 Worm Harvest
1 Spider Spawning
1 Kessig Cagebreakers
Support
1 Mindslicer
1 Altar of Dementia
1 Golgari Thug
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Bloodghast
Land
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Buried Ruin
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Crypt of Agadeem
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Cabal Coffers
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Twilight Mire
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
1 Command Tower
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Strip Mine
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
6 Swamp
6 Forest
Notable cuts/omissions:
Change Log:
6/18/13
Any input is appreciated.
I like the idea of G/W as it just seems like a SUPER fast way to build your life total, but W/B is intriguing because you can spend that life you gain to play powerful spells (Phyrexian Arena, Reanimate, Phyrexian Delver, etc).
B/W also seems to have pretty cool ways to manipulate life with Sanguine Bond, Vizkopa Guildmage, Exquisite Blood), and powers up Blood Baron of Vizkopa (if you want to play him).
Overall I wasn't too sure, so I brought it to a poll.