Okay, so I played Solar Flare when Innistrad was first released, mostly because I was fortunate enough to pull 2x Lilianas (one from my buy-a-box, one from prize support for FNM), and there are lots of points on both sides of the board that I agree and disagree with. Without turning this into a long-winded rant (which I'm sure it will anyways), I'll just make a couple of key points for further discussion:
Regarding the fatty debate:
Sun Titan is never going to be *just* a 6/6 body. The very fact that he has an ETB effect means you're going to get *something* back from the graveyard. You may not be able to make the god play of Titan >> Image of Titan >> Image of Titan >> Liliana/Snapcaster Doomblade combo, but at the very least, you'll get something from the graveyard, even if it is something like a land. The very act of playing the titan is going to benefit you in some manner above and beyond simply putting down the body. Additionally, with him having Vigilance, he serves double duty as both an attacker and a blocker; allowing you to swing (and triggering the recurse effect again), and still do his job as a meat shield, protecting Liliana and your life total. Does he fly? No, but neither does Grave Titan, Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. Its hard to evaluate cards like this in a vacuum, because their very nature is to interact with the board state and do other things. You can't possibly know what those things are going to be beforehand, because you don't know what deck you're playing against (at least G1), what's in your graveyard, and how bad Murphy has screwed you on the draw. You play the Sun Titan because of the possible interactions you could get out of the deck depending on the circumstances. You have control over those circumstances in some part due to cards like Forbidden Alchemy and Liliana's discard ability.
Grave Titan is likewise a good 6 drop as well. He's immune to 2 of the 3 more commonly played pieces of black removal (Doom Blade and Dismember), and some of the other 'easy' answers (Beast Within, Celestial Purge, Go for the Throat), aren't generally played in any large quantity in a deck to be a huge worry G1, with *maybe* the exception of Beast Within, and even then, you still end up with 3 bodies, worth 7 points of offense on the board. Oblivion Ring is going to be an issue due to it being the go-to form of removal for most white decks, but if you decide to o-ring his o-ring, not only do you get the titan back, but 2 more zombies to boot from the ETB trigger happening again. The additional level of resilience, coupled w/ the board altering ETB effect makes him a solid choice.
Wurmcoils are a given; they persist through board wipes, gain life, are guaranteed to trade with something they block 1-2 times (Deathtouch FTW), and are generally a nuisance. Additionally, Batterskull is a nice card to consider as a SB option, as he costs 1 less, can be equipped to one of the aforementioned 6 drop monsters, gains life, provides vigilance to the equipped creature, and in a pinch, can be picked up and recast, further increasing its longevity as a threat.
Rune-Scarred Demon seems like a really good card; they're just expensive. If you can't cheat it out early (thus discarding through Forbidden Alchemy or Liliana w/ an Unburial in hand/grave), you won't be seeing him until later in the game when you could really use that tutor ability to pull that one card that can swing things back into your favor. Couple that w/ the fact that you can use him to kick off the Sun Titan shenanigans, dig out a Lily for a quick discard/edict, find that O-ring you need, or even dig out a DOJ, blow the board, and then bring him back next turn w/ Unburial Rites, he has enough usefulness to consider him as a 1 of. Also, the previous comment about him being a flyer adds further relevance, especially when you consider cards like Inkmoth Nexus, Delver, Hopped up Angelic Destiny'ed tokens, Geists, etc.
Elesh Norn... what else can I say. I'm a Bant Pod player, and she's my 7 drop.. she does terrible, terrible things to other ppl's board state, while further solidifying your own. If she's not answered, she makes things much more difficult for your opponent. Me <3 her long time.
Other creatures:
As far as Snapcasters go, I love control decks, so I'm always wanting to cram as many of these things as I can into a deck. There is plenty of interaction in the graveyard to make use of them, but I think 3 is probably the right number, considering how tight the rest of our deck list is.
Phantasmal Images are definitely worth keeping in the deck, at least as a 1-2 of, even if you're in the "TEAM GRAVE TITAN ROCKS" camp. They answer legendary creatures, particularly the hexproof ones (HELLO OLIVIA, THRUN, AND GEIST /finger), can be used to kick off the Sun Titan recursive goodness for huge fatty board presence, and if you wanted to take advantage of additional ETB effects like RSD or Grave Titan's zombie posse, you could clone one of those for an additional tutor or blockers. Sure, they die if they're looked at funny, but aside from a few key cards that can actively screw images (Gideon's Lawkeeper, Hex Parasite, Kessig Wolf Run, etc), they're going to have to spend a card to get rid of it, even if it is just a shock effect, which they have probably sided out G2 anyways for more spot removal that would have caught one of your other real, non-recursable creatures as it is. I'll gladly let an Image eat a Doom Blade and pull him out of the yard on a subsequent turn if it means one of my other real guys stays alive, letting me save my Unburial Rites for something more important.
Planeswalkers:
I *really* like Liliana in this deck. She does so much both for you and against your opponent. Dropping Lili on T3 is often not the right play, especially if you're playing a deck that will try to present Mirran, Geist, or another relevant 3 drop after your play. At that point in the game her discard ability isn't going to catch anything too amazing due to them having so much fodder in hand, and unless you are on the draw and can edict their 3 drop, you'll most likely lose her to the follow-up swing from whatever creature(s) survived after she blew something up. If you can get a couple extra cards into your hand via alchemy, think twice, ponder, <insert preferred card advantage engine here>, then as you start bleeding cards out of your hand to discard, you'll still have a leg up on them. This deck is built to capitalize on graveyard interaction; you can flash back counters, removal, draw, and creature unburial; all perfectly viable discard outlets. Additionally, nothin' says lovin' like a cheated out RSD or Wurmcoil on T4/T5 while your opponent is still trying to setup or solidify their board position. She can be looked at as 3 additional removal spells that have the potential to do a lot more long term, assuming she lives past the initial edict effect. If they don't have an immediate threat on the board, and you can cast her more or less in the clear, then start grinding her up to 6 and bleed their hand; when they realize they have to make a rushed play or lose a threat to discard, you'll be sitting on the loyalty counters needed to make 'em sac it next turn, further setting them back.
On the Karn/Gideon front, I'd *love* to find a place to put another 2-3 planeswalkers into this deck, but doing so is going to have to come at some kind of significant cost, either in the creature department (more likely) or at the cost of our ability to control the board state until we can drop our fatties (far less likely).
On the subject of land filtering, I see a lot of ppl make reference to the Travelers Amulet. While this is a cute interaction, I think our deck is already tight on non-land slots as it is. Consider the fact that Evolving Wilds is being reprinted in DKA, and serves the same purpose as the amulet: It finds a basic land, it filters the deck, it does it for zero mana cost, and it can be recursed by a Sun Titan. Granted, Evolving Wilds might be rough for the first couple turns, but it grants us additional mana fixing ability, and all of our really important plays are going to happen T4-T7 as it is. Playing EW turn 1 and popping it for a land to present leak T2 is a perfectly acceptable play IMO, and honestly, once we've gotten 8-10 lands in play, we should be in relatively good shape for the long haul.. we run 26 lands so we're sure we don't miss our drops.. Evolving Wilds serves that purpose, as well as increasing the chance that we draw something relevant later down the road.
I built UW humans w/ the whole Geist, Angelic Destiny, Grand Abolisher, and Sword of X&Y package and it was a bit underwhelming to me. Granted, it could have been b/c I was playtesting against GW tokens, and my preferred method of play is a highly complex interactive deck (my last 3 real contenders as long term decks are Solar Flare, Grixis control, and Bant Pod), but I'd really like to be able to go back to Solar Flare as a viable deck for FNMs.. I enjoy twisting the knife slowly, but found there were a few key cards that just royally screwed me when I played Grixis (Phyrexian Crusaders being a big one), and Slagstorms just weren't getting the job done when it came to sweepers.
Just for the sake of comparison, here's my deck list. I'd like to see about finding room for another piece of removal (GffT or Dismember), and jam a couple of Pristine Talismans and a 2nd Sun Titan in the deck, but the deck list is already pretty tight as it is :-/. I think once DKA releases, I'll probably swap in the Evolving Wilds in place of the Seachrome/Darkslick because I can still more or less make my color density needs with my remaining lands, and still have those 4 slots used for fetches. I may only run 3; I guess it just depends on how the numbers work out.
@techmonkie: your list seems fine. Unless it is for budgetary reasons (which can't really be discussed here) I would run Consecrated Sphinx over Bloodgift Demon. Right now, it seems that your manabase is leaning more toward U/R than to black. Running Consecrated Sphinx will mean that you will more likely have a better creature that you can cast than a weaker creature sitting in your hand waiting for the second black. If you feel like rotating your deck around so it is more R/B than blue, then I think it would be fine to run Bloodgift Demon.
I don't think that Precursor Golem cuts it right now. Actually, it might be counterproductive considering all the Vapor Snags that are getting thrown around. This needs to be something else. Batterskull is a reasonable replacement for Wurmcoil Engine.
In terms of DR versus TT, I've found that I usually cast DR once, then occassionally flash it back. It's good to have in your arsenal, but I don't think its the most amazing thing ever. I prefer a split of 2x TT, 2x DR, and 3x FA. This split has done quite well for me, but I'm sure you'll hear people give you a ton of different advice on the subject. Just test each at different numbers and figure out what you are most comfortable with. Overall I like your list.
@OG
Thanks for the input. The Bloodgift Demon vs Consecrated Sphinx isn't a matter of budgetary from a $$$ perspective, but rather from a tactical one. I just ran a couple of games against my buddy, and while getting to 4 land by T4 is easily doable, unless I have a dig spell or 2 in my opening hand, finding that 5th and 6th land can be problematic. The 5th one isn't so much an issue, as if I don't find it, and I don't have it in hand, I've got some kind of removal/counter available to buy me a few turns, but the 6th can be a bit hit or miss. The Precursor/Bloodgift/Batterskull gives me the option of getting them down a turn earlier. I've got the Sphinx and Grave Titan in the sideboard, and have no problems running them main deck, assuming I can find/play them early and/or consistently enough that they don't end up being dead cards or Alchemy/Ravings fodder.
It's interesting that you classify my deck as a more U/R mana based one, when my Blue sources are the least plentiful vs my Red/Black ones (12 Blue vs 14 Red/Black). The way I see my deck list, I'm favoring the R/B route, particularly if I consider running Grave Titan over Precursor Golem. At this point, the only UU cards I have in my list are the 2x Dissipates; my other blue spells only require the single U source (unless you count the Snapcaster into flashed back Mana Leak, which will require UU). With Inferno Titan, Grave Titan, Bloodgift Demon, Liliana of the Veil, Slagstorm, and Devil's Play (for Flashback), I would definitely classify this build as RBu, especially if I make the transition from Dissipate to Negate in the main deck. The only other card I was looking at that would require UU was the Consecrated Sphinx, and it's part of the reason I'm questioning the mana base to start with.
As far as TT, DR and, FA goes, I went the 4 Alchemy/3 Ravings route. As a former Solar Flare player, I love the fact that Alchemy can dig 4 deep, filters/feeds the graveyard, and doesn't directly punish your hand for casting it. As mentioned in my original post, Ravings let me dig pretty deep in that one game looking for an answer, but I find myself less comfortable playing it unless my hand is either empty, complete crap, or I'm (no pun intended) desperate to find that silver bullet. If I have a halfway decent card or 2 in hand (Titan, Wurmcoil, Sphinx.. see question in original post on 6 drop CMC creatures) that I need a couple more turns to really start building advantage off of, I'm very hesitant to play it for fear that our buddy Murphy will cause me to discard it, and potentially not get anything useful from the Ravings cast to boot! In Solar Flare, I could simply TT at my opponent's EOT and eke out some extra card advantage.
I keep hearing how amazing Ravings is, and I agree that it can do some great things, I just find myself gun-shy about playing it unless I don't care about anything in my hand or am really in a pickle, which seems less like card advantage to me, and more like a Voltron Desperation Move (tm).
Okay, so I've been wanting to play Grixis control for a few weeks now, and finally managed to pick up my 3x Olivias to do so. I've read the last 20+ pages of this thread, and while I understand a lot of the points and theorycrafting going on here, I do have a few questions I'd like to ask and have clarified.
1. How often does Ravings screw you, and is it worth considering Think Twice over it?
2. Would certain key 5 drops (Presursor Golem, Batterskull, Bloodgift Demon) add enough speed to the deck to allow us an early advantage over having to draw/dig out a 6th land before really getting started over the 'standard' set of 6 drops (Grave Titan, Wurmcoil, Consecrated Sphinx)?
3. Can the generally accepted mana base provide enough consistent mana in the right colors to rely on BB, RR, and UU cost creatures/spells in any quantity (Dissipate/Consecrated Sphinx) vs just splashing blue for the U needed to run counters, Snapcasters, and Forbidden Alchemy?
4. Are the Scars lands required in order to ensure you have the untapped lands in the appropriate colors to make your crucial T2-T4 plays to slow your opponent, or are M12s sufficient? (I'm pretty sure I know the right answer here)
5. What is the 'right' amount of Snapcasters/Removal/Counters to run in order to make sure you have a good chance of seeing the cards often enough that they're relevant (both in hand and in the graveyard) w/out clogging your hand?
6. Sideboarding: I think I've got a handle on what will be most relevant vs Competitive decks, but suggestions are welcome. Additionally, with the addition of the Bloodhalls, is it feasibly possible to run Ancient Grudges and still take advantage of their flashback, or should I just run Shatters or the like?
The full questions, with thoughts and clarifications are listed below. If you're really interested in answering the above questions, I'd appreciate it if you'd read my rambling wall of text so you can get the full context of what I'm asking before replying. I've included it in a spoiler to save your eyes from bleeding in the event you don't care.
1. I've read the epic saga of Think Twice vs Desperate Ravings, and had the chance to test it out a little bit yesterday in MWS. I was in a position where my opponent was presenting lethal damage and I *needed* a Slagstorm to save me. Between Ravings and Alchemy, I managed to draw/dig 13 cards deep, having to pitch 7 of them to the 'yard, and couldn't find one of my 3 main deck Slagstorms. I won't discount the value of the card when searching for an answer, but how often is a play like that screwing you in the end, even potentially discarding that answer you dug up using Ravings itself?
2. I've been playing around with the idea of trying to curve out the top of the deck at 5 mana vs 6. With a fair amount of the mana base being Scars lands or potentially coming into play tapped, the difference between 4, 5, and 6 land can be significant, even with Ravings and Alchemy at our disposal. That being said, the top of my curve looks like this:
1x Batterskull (Wurmcoil Replacement)
1x Precursor Golem (Grave Titan Replacement)
1x Bloodgift Demon (Consecrated Sphinx Replacement)
3x Olivia Voldaren
1x Inferno Titan (too good to give up)
I've got the Grave Titan, Sphinx, and Wurmcoil in my sideboard; my thought process is swap the Precursor in match ups where they have removal that can take out all golems (doom blade, incinerate, etc) for the Grave Titan. Wurmcoil goes in vs RDW, and Consecrated Sphinx vs decks where they can blow out the Bloodgift before I can start exploiting his card advantage. I guess the question here is: Should I even bother w/ trying to take advantage of these lower CMC creatures that have similar effects to their 6 drop cousins, but are admittedly inferior substitutes to the real deals? I find that I can get stuck on 4 or 5 land for a few turns, and the advantage of bringing down 3 blockers, a couple of extra cards, or a smaller version of a Wurmcoil could be beneficial in staving off my opponent. I could even see running come of the 5 drops in addition to a suite of 6s; probably the Bloodgift and Presursor, not sure how well the mana base supports UU for the sphinx. This brings me to...
3. Beings the deck is primarily a BR deck, splashing blue for Snapcasters and Mana Leaks, how well can we really support UU casting cost spells? I ask because I'll see the odd Dissipate floating around in the main deck and sideboard, and with the idea of potentially including a Consecrated Sphinx as a bomb (card draw, flying body, dismember proof, etc), it seems like the mana base would need to be a bit more evenly distributed. I know Chapin's list used a land distribution that was more or less even across the 3 colors (I think he had 15 sources for Red, Blue, and Black), but with the inclusion of Stensia Bloodhall, my mana producing sources are more like 14 Black, 14 Red, 12 Blue. If you're banking on RR for a T3/T4 Slagstorm, or BB for an early Liliana Drop, it seems like it would be asking too much of the mana base to be able to provide that level of flexibility (BB, RR and/or UU early enough to make use of any of the double color casting cost cards) without having to make some kind of compromise. If the answer to consistent UU is 'no', would I be better served to run another type of counter spell in the main deck like Negate, or cut my main deck counters to 4 and just run the full set of Mana Leaks?
4. With regards to land type selection, I notice a lot of Scars lands are being used. My assumption is that the mana base for this deck is very... ambitious, and as a result, we need to make sure we have the maximum amount of color sources available as early as possible so that we can make those crucial T2 - T4 tempo stopping plays. Having lands come into play tapped later isn't as much of a deal breaker as not having access to early leak/doomblade/slagstorm colors, and when it comes to cards like Alchemy, Ravings, Liliana, etc, Scars lands make a good target for discard, assuming you don't need them. Is this the case? I've seen a couple of arguments for using more of the M12 type lands and less Scars lands, but it seems like you run the risk of not having the mana available for a key early removal/counter that can further be flashed back on T4 with a Snapcaster if needed.
5. Snapcaster/Counter/Removal quantities: I've been going back and forth with 3 vs 4 Snapcaster Mages; with the more limited amount of counters and true spot removal, having access to as many ways to replay them as possible seems important, and the extra body seems like it would be relevant as well. My current count for cards that SCM can interact with is 5 removal spells (3x Doom Blade, 2x Galvanic Blast), 5 counters (3x Mana Leak, 2x Dissipate), 3 Sweepers (Slagstorm). I didn't include Devil's Play b/c it has its own Flashback capability, but Snapcaster could reduce the Flashback cost in a pinch. I love seeing this guy in my hand, especially when I have the spells in the graveyard to fully utilize him, but with 'only' 5 counters and 5 removal in the main deck, should I cut the count on SCMs from 4 to 3 and add in an additional removal/counter, or does the deck run well enough as is?
6. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 'right' way to do so. Sideboarding has always been my worst skill, and I want to make sure I understand the 'whys' of what goes in and out vs simply the 'whats'. My strategies are as follows:
vs. Control: -2 Galvanic, -3 Slagstorm, +1 Mana Leak, +3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Consecrated Sphinx. If Doom Blades are in use, I may side out Presursor for Grave Titan, or possibly keep Precursor in and add Grave Titan in, using the golems to draw out removal. If Black threats are the primary bombs, Doom Blades may or may not come out for something more useful in the sideboard (suggestions?)
vs. Tokens/Humans: -1 Devil's Play, -2 Dissipate, -2 Liliana, -1 Batterskull, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Galvanic, +1 Slagstorm, +2 Curse of Death's Hold, +1 Ratchet Bomb
vs. RDW: -2 Dissipate, -1 Devil's Play, -2 Liliana, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Wurmcoil Engine, +1 Slagstorm, +2 Flashfreeze. Still not sure if siding Lili is the way to go here, but I assume she'll die to burn early on, especially if I use her -2 to kill a creature. If Lilis don't come out, I'd probably not bring in the extra Leak, but I'm not sure what other card I'd not bring in.. Flashfreeze is great vs the red aspect, but doesn't do anything vs Shrine, and cards like Nobles get out of Slagstorm range fairly quickly if left unchecked.
vs. Wolf Run: -3 Slagstorm, -1 Batterskull, -2 Liliana, +2 Flashfreeze, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Galvanic, +2 Curse of Death's Hold
vs. Illusions, U/R Delver, Tempo, etc: -1 Batterskull, -2 Liliana, -2 Dissipate, +1 Galvanic, +1 Slagstorm, +1 Mana Leak, +2 Curse of Death's Hold. I'm not completely sure on the Curses in this matchup, but they seem like they'd be good vs Delvers, Nobles, Snapcasters, etc, and help reduce the damage output from Chandra's Phoenix.
You'll notice my lack of Ancient Grudges in the sideboard.. I'm still not sure I'm completely comfortable with that choice, but with the addition of the Stensia Bloodhalls, I don't have the 'room' to add in a couple of green sources for the flashback w/out further screwing my color base. I'm considering Manic Vandals for the artifact destruction, but I'm not sure I really want/need this, as the grudges serve as an additional way to get rid of things like Inkmoth and Shrines. Inkmoths I have an answer for by way of Doom Blades, Galvanic Blasts, and Curse of Death's Hold. Shrines I'm not so sure about, and could be a problem. Suggestions on how to fit Ancient Grudge into the sideboard and mana base are appreciated.
Sorry for the wall of text, I just figured it'd be easier to get all the info out there at once w/out having to post a string of follow-up questions
@metamorph: One of the things I notice is that you're running Viridian Emissaries vs Sphere of Suns. If that's the case, I'd expect your ramp to be a bit inconsistent in the first couple of turns, considering he has to die for the mana effect to come into play. While I appreciate the fact that an extra 2 points here and there is good to kill your opponent, if they choose to let that damage through, they're in effect denying you access to your early mana base.
I went the Sphere route b/c I'm using it to get to my early 6 mana for a titan/Thrun/Garruk drop, is immune to me Slagstorming the board, and once the 3 charges are used up, it still serves to bring Metalcraft online that much faster. The only drawbacks I see by using Spheres over Emissaries is that I lose out on some early damage/blockers. My opponent choosing to take the early damage could end up stalling me until after they have the board presence to comfortably kill the Emissary, potentially putting me in a bad position.
Do you find that 3 Solemn Sims is enough to see them consistently in the first couple turns? I like them b/c they're at the very least a 2-for-1, with you getting land when they're played, and a card when they die. If you can chump/kill one of their attackers, it can become a 3-for-1. I've considered pulling one of mine to put something else in there, but haven't decided between running a 2nd Thrun main deck, or sneaking in something like a Batterskull/Wurmcoil.
The Batterskull would be nice if drew into it, but it can't be tutor'ed up with Garruk Relentless, and can't be Green Sun'ed for. Relentless would allow me to dig out a Wurmcoil, but if I draw too many big threats too early, I run the chance of being mana starved during those first crucial turns. Thrun suffers from none of these problems, but could potentially be a dead draw if I've already got one in play, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering how many ppl are running Phantasmal Images these days...
If I were to make any changes at this point, I feel like it would be something along the lines of:
Maindeck:
-1 Solemn Simulacrum
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll or Acidic Slime
As far as sideboard goes, I made some changes to allow me to have a good set of answers for my less optimal games. I've managed to tweak it enough to have a pair of Garruk, Primal Hunters available to allow me to shift my planes walker strategy from aggro to control if needed, while still allowing access to cards which should help in unfavorable match ups. My changes would look something like:
This seems like it would be strong vs most games out of the box, with decent side boarding options for the Mirror, RDW, Illusions, Control, UW Humans, GW Tokens, and Tempered Steel:
Garruk, PH: Swap for Relentless for more control-oriented games
Batterskull: Swap in for RDW
Sword of FaF: Swap in for Control, makes Thrun super scary and gives Birds some bite.
Beast Within: Good for targeted permanent removal (Planeswalkers, Artifacts, Enchantments)
Ancient Grudge: Mirror Match, Tempered Steel, Humans/Tokens matchup w/ Swords, Shrine for RDW
Devil's Play: Extra burn for mirror and control
Slagstorm: Extra board wipe for tokens, weenies, opposing ramp, illusions, etc
Autumn's Veil: Jam Titans down a control deck's throat FTW
Tree of Redemption: Help offset life loss from fast decks like RDW, Tempered Steel, some of the more aggressive aggro decks
The only thing I really wish I had room for in here would be a Wurmcoil, but I can't really find anything I'd be willing to cut main deck or sideboard to fit it in, and Batterskull provides a lot of the same functionality for 1 less mana, as well as has the ability to be equipped and recast if necessary. Inferno Titan is just scary good against cards like illusions, birds, Mirran Crusaders, Delvers, other small creatures, and worst case, it's 3 more points of damage to your opponent's face.
Sorry for the wall of text, I'm trying to fine tune this thing to take to FNM tonight, and I tend to be a more control oriented player, this is a new archetype for me.
Edit: After reading your comments on Acidic slime, I could see having at least one of those available, either MD or SB. Perhaps I'll drop the Swords from the SB, move one Thrun back from MD to SB, and then put an Acidic slime in main and the WCE in the sideboard.. that gives me everything I could want, especially considering I'm already using Kessig Wolf Run to boost up my creatures on the attack. Sadly, the Pro Green/Black is something I'll miss.
Thanks for the reply. The issue I keep struggling with regarding #2 is whether or not I want the 'guaranteed' draw of Primal Hunter vs the more utility based Relentless. Primal Hunter is great if my hand is empty, but I could very well draw into something like a Sphere or Simulacrum just as easily as a Titan, not to mention that as a 2GGG casting cost, he can be a bit harder to get out on T3-T4, depending on how mana works out. Even worse, if the board is clean, or has a Sim/Bird out, the draw ability is more or less wasted unless I have him +1 for a 3/3 Beast first, and even then, my draw will mediocre at best, further exacerbating the issue with the inconsistent draw. If there's a titan on the board, great, but I don't generally see myself in a position where I'd have to fish for cards if I've got a resolved major threat on the table.
Relentless seems like the better choice due to me being able to 'snipe' one of their smaller threats and/or popping my own Sim for the card draw to pull a creature out of my deck. My concern is that it can take several turns for Garruk to fully get online before I can begin capitalizing on his abilities (One turn to drop/fight and transform, one turn to make a wolf if your board is empty and/or +1 so you don't burn him on the tutor ability, one turn to sac for a creature). Being able to drop him on Turn 3-4 for a much more friendly 3G seems like it would be strategically beneficial, especially if you could create that wolf to help clog the board early on while ramping/looking for a bigger threat to get on the board. Relentless becomes especially useful too for digging out that clutch Inferno Titan / Wurmcoil, and easily serves the purpose of a much broader reaching GSZ #4-5, which is the benefit that swings my decision in his favor.
I've also been tossing around the idea of running 3 Solemn Sims / 2 Thruns maindeck, as well as possibly running 2 Inferno Titans / 1 Wurmcoil to provide me with a more diverse threat profile. I've even considered going so far as to sideboard a 2nd WCE for an aggro heavy matchup, but with Batterskull in the SB already, I figure if I end up in that position, I can just side one of the Inferno titans out for the Batterskull, or even possibly swap one Inferno Titan for the 2nd WCE and pull Devil's Play for a Batterskull, giving me 1 5 drop lifelink that doubles as equipment, and 2 6 drop lifeline creatures that persist through a board wipe.
So a few questions for those a bit more well versed in WRR than I am. After seeing/losing to Wolf Run at my last FNM, and beings I've wanted to build it for a while, I finally assembled a R/G variant based off of the states deck list. I've made a couple of main deck changes to experiment with, and wanted some input from the masses:
-1 Devil's Play
-1 Inferno Titan
-1 Shock
-1 Mountain
+1 Bird of Paradise
+2 Garruk Relentless
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
The 2nd Devil's Play made its way into the Sideboard in the event I end up needing it. My new deck list is as follows:
1. Is Garruk worth running main deck in a list like this? I feel like 25 lands is enough, and I haven't really been screwed from a mana standpoint with the removal of the mountain, and the Shock just kind of felt out of place, so I feel like I have the slots available for him, should he be worth the investment.
2. *WHICH* Garruk is going to be the better addition, assuming the answer to Question 1 is 'Yes'. I like Relentless b/c I can use him for removal vs lower toughness threats, as well as spit out wolves to provide me with some extra bodies. Once he flips, I can sac one of those aforementioned wolves (or Solemn Sim and get the card draw) to fish out any creature from the deck, to include an Inferno Titan or possibly Wurmcoil Engine (which would take the place of one of the Inferno Titans). The Primal Hunter serves a similar purpose with regards to spitting out token creatures to swing with, but unless I already have a larger creature out (Thrun, Titan), the card draw is going to be less spectacular. This can be somewhat mitigated by using Kessig Wolf Run (assuming you have it in play) to boost the power of one of your creatures prior to using the draw effect, or using it after combat, assuming your creature will survive the combat phase, and draw a larger number of cards than normally allowed by their Power. Is it worth considering running a combination of Primal Hunter/Relentless?
3. How many big threats are 'enough', and which ones are best? There's been a few times where my hand has been clogged by Titans, and I didn't have a way to get them into play. I love the idea of big beefy threats in the deck, but it doesn't do me a lot of good if I can't get them onto the table. I'm a little apprehensive about reducing my Primeval Titan count below 4, however I have included an extra Green Sun to find one if needed, and with the addition of Garruk <insert variant here>, I have a couple different ways to find what I need. Additionally, if do reduce my Primeval count from 4 to 3, would I be better served to bring my 2nd Devil's Play back into the main deck, add a 2nd Thrun, or add another fattie like a Wurmcoil?
4. Should I be considering drops on other points in the mana curve? I know the World deck was tuned around the 2-4-6 drop range, but I've found myself in a few positions where there was a threat on the board that I couldn't answer, and felt like if I had another relevant, less expensive cost creature to put out, I could have mitigated things a bit earlier. This led to me wanting a bit of extra ramp (another bird), and a better chance of pulling/finding a relevant 4 drop to put out early (Garruk Relentless, another Green Sun, possibly another Thrun main deck).
I'm sure there are more questions I should be asking, but they elude me at the moment. Please have a look at the above decklist and questions and leave comments. I'd like to take this to FNM and test it out, but don't want to hamstring myself by running a bad/suboptimal list, as our environment is fairly competitive.
Ignorant question: I see the .txt file, but it looks like MWS wants a .mwbase file.. is there some download I'm missing somewhere? The last time I imported a spoiler set, I seem to recall using a .mwbase file to do it.
So after my first shot at building a Tempered Steel deck (and a nice 7-0 win on M12 game day), I've done a bit of tweaking, and have come up w/ a 'new' version I'd like to have critiqued:
- My initial deck splashed blue for Spell Pierce MB, which I've now put into the SB so I had some extra draw during the first game. Beings this is an aggro heavy deck, how does Preordain / Ponder fare vs a bit of control/counter capability during Game 1? I worry about things like ppl MD'ing Creeping Corrosion / Day of Judgement, but I expect to see those more in Game 2 & 3, where I'll be able to make a more informed decision about whether or not I need the counter capability vs finding the cards I need to wrap up the match quickly.
- With regards to Spell Pierce specifically, I can appreciate only having to leave U open for counters, and the potential to totally screw an opponent up early game by stopping a key non-creature spell, but it seems like a weak'ish play later in the game. That, coupled with the fact that it cycles soon, leads me to wonder if Negate or Stoic Rebuttal would be a better option. Negate seems like a 'better' fit with U1 vs. Stoic's UU requirement (Metalcraft ftw), and both are hard counters vs. an 'opponent spends more mana' condition to counter. If a counterspell is going to be run, these seem like the 2 best options post Zendikar; what are your guys' thoughts?
- Regarding post-rotation in general (and that seems like a taboo subject here), what kinds of brainstorming is being done for replacement cards to cover the holes like Steel Overseer. I've seen Hero of Bladehold tucked into a few of these builds, and I really like the idea of having something that doesn't necessarily interact with the Artifact component of the deck (and is therefore immune to things like Creeping Corrosion. Additionally, those slots could simply be filled w/ an offensive oriented beat stick like Porcelain Legionnaire, or a sandbagged creature/draw effect like Origin Spellbomb, but then the only real option I'll have to boost these creatures up will be Tempered Steel itself, or the aggregate Battle Cry bonuses of Hero of Bladehold and Signal Pest (which won't really do anything for their Toughness, meaning I'll still likely be trading cards like Hex Parasite and Memnite).
I'll admit up front that I'm really terrible when it comes to Sideboarding, and building Sideboards in general. I've always built decks around them being tightly focused and having the cards play well off of each other, so when I have to break up components of my deck to swap in specific answers, I always feel like the deck is a bit worse off. My sideboarding thoughts are:
In Maindeck:
- Hex Parasite: Swap out if not playing a counter heavy opponent, or have no Planeswalkers to remove.
- Preordain: Swap out for Spell Pierces or other clutch cards in SB.
- Spellskite: Swap out if not playing a heavy burn/removal deck
In Sideboard:
- Revoke Existance: Swap in for dealing with nastier artifacts/enchantments (Quests, Blightsteel, Wurmcoil, other Tempered Steel, Oblivion Rings, etc)
- Phyrexian Revoker: Added measure of protection vs Planeswalkers and other key cards with activated abilities. Still on the fence with this guy, but it does offer me an additional answer to key cards in my opponent's deck w/ activated abilities, and he's also subject to Steel Overseer/Tempered Steel bonuses.
- Spell Pierce (or Negate/Stoic Rebuttal): Some form of protection from board wipes, artifact removal, creature removal, or other terrifying things that can ruin my day. Would love to be able to run this AND some form of fish/draw option in main deck, but am unsure where to put it, unless I just wait and fill the 4x Steel Overseer slots with these.
- Shrine of Loyal Legions: Great to get out early and build up counters for a big swarm post board wipe, seems kind of vulnerable to things like artifact removal, Divine Offering, Revoke Existance, Leonin Relic Warders, etc, etc.
- Flashfreeze: Backup for Green/Red (we see a fair number of Goblin, RDW, Birthing Pod, and Green Ramp in our local meta).
I always find I'm floundering when it comes to trying to figure out what to take out of MD to sideboard in. Anyone willing to offer suggestions on what is worth keeping/swapping when sideboarding against different deck types? Also, if you see anything important enough to consider for maindeck or sideboard that I've missed, please feel free to share.
Sorry for the long winded post, I've just had a lot of questions swirling around in my head, and I tend to ramble a lot
I haven't done much work on this since Friday, but I've definitely pinned down at least part of one track. I'll look at all this new data and see how much more I can come up with this week.
TechMonkie: Welcome! There's no set way to work on the maps, and everyone tends to work fairly independently at first. I'm not going to be posting up any findings until I've looked at 20-30 boxes, which we're almost at. As to the multiple tracks, it may well be.
I've got a small chunk of one track solved already, and think I may have pinned down part of the interval, but still need to compare what I've solved so far against these other boxes in as many different ways as I can to confirm what I've got. This is a lot more fun than I thought it would be!
Based on what I'm seeing so far (and this is by far nothing definitive), it looks like we might be dealing w/ more than 2 tracks. I've managed to pick a few key pieces out of at least one track that is repeating w/ a fair degree of reliability (Quicksilver Amulet, Grim Lavamancer, Royal Assassin, Sunpetal Grove); not in the exact same order mind you, but I've found those cards more or less 'next' to each other in terms of order. The problem I've seen so far is that as I do comparisons against other boxes, sometimes I'll find a few cards inbetween them (what you'd expect to see w/ a 2 track rare set), and sometimes having 8-12 packs between them. I realize there may be one or more rows of disruption in play here, but that seems like an *awful* lot of space to go before the pattern picks back up.
Happened across the Scars of Mirrodin box mapping thread after a buddy of mine at our local gaming shop told me about the possibility of mapping boxes. Needless to say, I was highly intrigued about the whole process, and set out to learn how to do it. Within 2-3 days, I had created an Excel spreadsheet that would accurately predict an entire box map (minus top row disruption) based on the data collected from opening a couple of packs from each Track. Once I realized this was possible, I knew I wanted to be a part of mapping M12. All that being said, here is my initial box contribution:
Left
Phantasmal Image
Day of Judgement
Manabarbs
Mesa Enchantress
Dungrove Elder
Gideon's Avenger
Elvish Archdruid
Royal Assassin
Throne of Empires
Warstorm Surge
Sorin's Vengeance
Sunpetal Grove
Middle
Goblin Chieftan
Sundial of the Infinite
Garruk's Horde Frost Titan Primordial Hydra
Quicksilver Amulet
Monomania
Personal Sanctuary
Rune-Scarred Demon
Flameblast Dragon Sun Titan
Chandra's Phoenix
Right
Redirect
Drowned Catacombs
Skinshifter
Sorin's Vengeance
Lord of the Unreal
Pentavus
Grim Lavamancer
Djinn of Wishes Jace, Memory Adept
Scrambleverse
Rootbound Craig
Drowned Catacombs
Not a bad box; 2 Titans, a Hydra, and a Jace. Looking forward to contributing however I can to help break this map.
Regarding the fatty debate:
Sun Titan is never going to be *just* a 6/6 body. The very fact that he has an ETB effect means you're going to get *something* back from the graveyard. You may not be able to make the god play of Titan >> Image of Titan >> Image of Titan >> Liliana/Snapcaster Doomblade combo, but at the very least, you'll get something from the graveyard, even if it is something like a land. The very act of playing the titan is going to benefit you in some manner above and beyond simply putting down the body. Additionally, with him having Vigilance, he serves double duty as both an attacker and a blocker; allowing you to swing (and triggering the recurse effect again), and still do his job as a meat shield, protecting Liliana and your life total. Does he fly? No, but neither does Grave Titan, Batterskull, Wurmcoil Engine, etc. Its hard to evaluate cards like this in a vacuum, because their very nature is to interact with the board state and do other things. You can't possibly know what those things are going to be beforehand, because you don't know what deck you're playing against (at least G1), what's in your graveyard, and how bad Murphy has screwed you on the draw. You play the Sun Titan because of the possible interactions you could get out of the deck depending on the circumstances. You have control over those circumstances in some part due to cards like Forbidden Alchemy and Liliana's discard ability.
Grave Titan is likewise a good 6 drop as well. He's immune to 2 of the 3 more commonly played pieces of black removal (Doom Blade and Dismember), and some of the other 'easy' answers (Beast Within, Celestial Purge, Go for the Throat), aren't generally played in any large quantity in a deck to be a huge worry G1, with *maybe* the exception of Beast Within, and even then, you still end up with 3 bodies, worth 7 points of offense on the board. Oblivion Ring is going to be an issue due to it being the go-to form of removal for most white decks, but if you decide to o-ring his o-ring, not only do you get the titan back, but 2 more zombies to boot from the ETB trigger happening again. The additional level of resilience, coupled w/ the board altering ETB effect makes him a solid choice.
Wurmcoils are a given; they persist through board wipes, gain life, are guaranteed to trade with something they block 1-2 times (Deathtouch FTW), and are generally a nuisance. Additionally, Batterskull is a nice card to consider as a SB option, as he costs 1 less, can be equipped to one of the aforementioned 6 drop monsters, gains life, provides vigilance to the equipped creature, and in a pinch, can be picked up and recast, further increasing its longevity as a threat.
Rune-Scarred Demon seems like a really good card; they're just expensive. If you can't cheat it out early (thus discarding through Forbidden Alchemy or Liliana w/ an Unburial in hand/grave), you won't be seeing him until later in the game when you could really use that tutor ability to pull that one card that can swing things back into your favor. Couple that w/ the fact that you can use him to kick off the Sun Titan shenanigans, dig out a Lily for a quick discard/edict, find that O-ring you need, or even dig out a DOJ, blow the board, and then bring him back next turn w/ Unburial Rites, he has enough usefulness to consider him as a 1 of. Also, the previous comment about him being a flyer adds further relevance, especially when you consider cards like Inkmoth Nexus, Delver, Hopped up Angelic Destiny'ed tokens, Geists, etc.
Elesh Norn... what else can I say. I'm a Bant Pod player, and she's my 7 drop.. she does terrible, terrible things to other ppl's board state, while further solidifying your own. If she's not answered, she makes things much more difficult for your opponent. Me <3 her long time.
Other creatures:
As far as Snapcasters go, I love control decks, so I'm always wanting to cram as many of these things as I can into a deck. There is plenty of interaction in the graveyard to make use of them, but I think 3 is probably the right number, considering how tight the rest of our deck list is.
Phantasmal Images are definitely worth keeping in the deck, at least as a 1-2 of, even if you're in the "TEAM GRAVE TITAN ROCKS" camp. They answer legendary creatures, particularly the hexproof ones (HELLO OLIVIA, THRUN, AND GEIST /finger), can be used to kick off the Sun Titan recursive goodness for huge fatty board presence, and if you wanted to take advantage of additional ETB effects like RSD or Grave Titan's zombie posse, you could clone one of those for an additional tutor or blockers. Sure, they die if they're looked at funny, but aside from a few key cards that can actively screw images (Gideon's Lawkeeper, Hex Parasite, Kessig Wolf Run, etc), they're going to have to spend a card to get rid of it, even if it is just a shock effect, which they have probably sided out G2 anyways for more spot removal that would have caught one of your other real, non-recursable creatures as it is. I'll gladly let an Image eat a Doom Blade and pull him out of the yard on a subsequent turn if it means one of my other real guys stays alive, letting me save my Unburial Rites for something more important.
Planeswalkers:
I *really* like Liliana in this deck. She does so much both for you and against your opponent. Dropping Lili on T3 is often not the right play, especially if you're playing a deck that will try to present Mirran, Geist, or another relevant 3 drop after your play. At that point in the game her discard ability isn't going to catch anything too amazing due to them having so much fodder in hand, and unless you are on the draw and can edict their 3 drop, you'll most likely lose her to the follow-up swing from whatever creature(s) survived after she blew something up. If you can get a couple extra cards into your hand via alchemy, think twice, ponder, <insert preferred card advantage engine here>, then as you start bleeding cards out of your hand to discard, you'll still have a leg up on them. This deck is built to capitalize on graveyard interaction; you can flash back counters, removal, draw, and creature unburial; all perfectly viable discard outlets. Additionally, nothin' says lovin' like a cheated out RSD or Wurmcoil on T4/T5 while your opponent is still trying to setup or solidify their board position. She can be looked at as 3 additional removal spells that have the potential to do a lot more long term, assuming she lives past the initial edict effect. If they don't have an immediate threat on the board, and you can cast her more or less in the clear, then start grinding her up to 6 and bleed their hand; when they realize they have to make a rushed play or lose a threat to discard, you'll be sitting on the loyalty counters needed to make 'em sac it next turn, further setting them back.
On the Karn/Gideon front, I'd *love* to find a place to put another 2-3 planeswalkers into this deck, but doing so is going to have to come at some kind of significant cost, either in the creature department (more likely) or at the cost of our ability to control the board state until we can drop our fatties (far less likely).
On the subject of land filtering, I see a lot of ppl make reference to the Travelers Amulet. While this is a cute interaction, I think our deck is already tight on non-land slots as it is. Consider the fact that Evolving Wilds is being reprinted in DKA, and serves the same purpose as the amulet: It finds a basic land, it filters the deck, it does it for zero mana cost, and it can be recursed by a Sun Titan. Granted, Evolving Wilds might be rough for the first couple turns, but it grants us additional mana fixing ability, and all of our really important plays are going to happen T4-T7 as it is. Playing EW turn 1 and popping it for a land to present leak T2 is a perfectly acceptable play IMO, and honestly, once we've gotten 8-10 lands in play, we should be in relatively good shape for the long haul.. we run 26 lands so we're sure we don't miss our drops.. Evolving Wilds serves that purpose, as well as increasing the chance that we draw something relevant later down the road.
I built UW humans w/ the whole Geist, Angelic Destiny, Grand Abolisher, and Sword of X&Y package and it was a bit underwhelming to me. Granted, it could have been b/c I was playtesting against GW tokens, and my preferred method of play is a highly complex interactive deck (my last 3 real contenders as long term decks are Solar Flare, Grixis control, and Bant Pod), but I'd really like to be able to go back to Solar Flare as a viable deck for FNMs.. I enjoy twisting the knife slowly, but found there were a few key cards that just royally screwed me when I played Grixis (Phyrexian Crusaders being a big one), and Slagstorms just weren't getting the job done when it came to sweepers.
Just for the sake of comparison, here's my deck list. I'd like to see about finding room for another piece of removal (GffT or Dismember), and jam a couple of Pristine Talismans and a 2nd Sun Titan in the deck, but the deck list is already pretty tight as it is :-/. I think once DKA releases, I'll probably swap in the Evolving Wilds in place of the Seachrome/Darkslick because I can still more or less make my color density needs with my remaining lands, and still have those 4 slots used for fetches. I may only run 3; I guess it just depends on how the numbers work out.
4x Isolated Chapel
4x Drowned Catacombs
4x Glacial Fortress
2x Darkslick Shores
2x Seachrome Coast
2x Swamp
3x Island
3x Plains
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Grave Titan
1x Sun Titan
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Wurmcoil Engine
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
2x Phantasmal Image
3x Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
3x Oblivion Ring
Instants/Sorceries (18)
1x Dissipate
3x Mana Leak
4x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Think Twice
2x Doom Blade
3x Day of Judgement
2x Unburial Rites
@OG
Thanks for the input. The Bloodgift Demon vs Consecrated Sphinx isn't a matter of budgetary from a $$$ perspective, but rather from a tactical one. I just ran a couple of games against my buddy, and while getting to 4 land by T4 is easily doable, unless I have a dig spell or 2 in my opening hand, finding that 5th and 6th land can be problematic. The 5th one isn't so much an issue, as if I don't find it, and I don't have it in hand, I've got some kind of removal/counter available to buy me a few turns, but the 6th can be a bit hit or miss. The Precursor/Bloodgift/Batterskull gives me the option of getting them down a turn earlier. I've got the Sphinx and Grave Titan in the sideboard, and have no problems running them main deck, assuming I can find/play them early and/or consistently enough that they don't end up being dead cards or Alchemy/Ravings fodder.
It's interesting that you classify my deck as a more U/R mana based one, when my Blue sources are the least plentiful vs my Red/Black ones (12 Blue vs 14 Red/Black). The way I see my deck list, I'm favoring the R/B route, particularly if I consider running Grave Titan over Precursor Golem. At this point, the only UU cards I have in my list are the 2x Dissipates; my other blue spells only require the single U source (unless you count the Snapcaster into flashed back Mana Leak, which will require UU). With Inferno Titan, Grave Titan, Bloodgift Demon, Liliana of the Veil, Slagstorm, and Devil's Play (for Flashback), I would definitely classify this build as RBu, especially if I make the transition from Dissipate to Negate in the main deck. The only other card I was looking at that would require UU was the Consecrated Sphinx, and it's part of the reason I'm questioning the mana base to start with.
As far as TT, DR and, FA goes, I went the 4 Alchemy/3 Ravings route. As a former Solar Flare player, I love the fact that Alchemy can dig 4 deep, filters/feeds the graveyard, and doesn't directly punish your hand for casting it. As mentioned in my original post, Ravings let me dig pretty deep in that one game looking for an answer, but I find myself less comfortable playing it unless my hand is either empty, complete crap, or I'm (no pun intended) desperate to find that silver bullet. If I have a halfway decent card or 2 in hand (Titan, Wurmcoil, Sphinx.. see question in original post on 6 drop CMC creatures) that I need a couple more turns to really start building advantage off of, I'm very hesitant to play it for fear that our buddy Murphy will cause me to discard it, and potentially not get anything useful from the Ravings cast to boot! In Solar Flare, I could simply TT at my opponent's EOT and eke out some extra card advantage.
I keep hearing how amazing Ravings is, and I agree that it can do some great things, I just find myself gun-shy about playing it unless I don't care about anything in my hand or am really in a pickle, which seems less like card advantage to me, and more like a Voltron Desperation Move (tm).
First, the deck list I'm considering:
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
4x Darkslick Shores
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Stensia Bloodhall
3x Drowned Catacomb
1x Dragonskull Summit
5x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Island
Planeswalkers: 2
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creatures: 11 (read #2 for reasoning)
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Olivia Voldaren
1x Presursor Golem
1x Bloodgift Demon
1x Inferno Titan
1x Batterskull (I know its technically not a creature :-/)
3x Doom Blade
3x Slagstorm
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Devil's Play
Counters: 5
3x Mana Leak
2x Dissipate
Draw/Dig: 7
4x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Desperate Ravings
1x Mana Leak
2x Flashfreeze
1x Grave Titan
1x Slagstorm
1x Galvanic Blast
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Curse of Death's Hold
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x ???????
TL;DR version:
1. How often does Ravings screw you, and is it worth considering Think Twice over it?
2. Would certain key 5 drops (Presursor Golem, Batterskull, Bloodgift Demon) add enough speed to the deck to allow us an early advantage over having to draw/dig out a 6th land before really getting started over the 'standard' set of 6 drops (Grave Titan, Wurmcoil, Consecrated Sphinx)?
3. Can the generally accepted mana base provide enough consistent mana in the right colors to rely on BB, RR, and UU cost creatures/spells in any quantity (Dissipate/Consecrated Sphinx) vs just splashing blue for the U needed to run counters, Snapcasters, and Forbidden Alchemy?
4. Are the Scars lands required in order to ensure you have the untapped lands in the appropriate colors to make your crucial T2-T4 plays to slow your opponent, or are M12s sufficient? (I'm pretty sure I know the right answer here)
5. What is the 'right' amount of Snapcasters/Removal/Counters to run in order to make sure you have a good chance of seeing the cards often enough that they're relevant (both in hand and in the graveyard) w/out clogging your hand?
6. Sideboarding: I think I've got a handle on what will be most relevant vs Competitive decks, but suggestions are welcome. Additionally, with the addition of the Bloodhalls, is it feasibly possible to run Ancient Grudges and still take advantage of their flashback, or should I just run Shatters or the like?
The full questions, with thoughts and clarifications are listed below. If you're really interested in answering the above questions, I'd appreciate it if you'd read my rambling wall of text so you can get the full context of what I'm asking before replying. I've included it in a spoiler to save your eyes from bleeding in the event you don't care.
1. I've read the epic saga of Think Twice vs Desperate Ravings, and had the chance to test it out a little bit yesterday in MWS. I was in a position where my opponent was presenting lethal damage and I *needed* a Slagstorm to save me. Between Ravings and Alchemy, I managed to draw/dig 13 cards deep, having to pitch 7 of them to the 'yard, and couldn't find one of my 3 main deck Slagstorms. I won't discount the value of the card when searching for an answer, but how often is a play like that screwing you in the end, even potentially discarding that answer you dug up using Ravings itself?
2. I've been playing around with the idea of trying to curve out the top of the deck at 5 mana vs 6. With a fair amount of the mana base being Scars lands or potentially coming into play tapped, the difference between 4, 5, and 6 land can be significant, even with Ravings and Alchemy at our disposal. That being said, the top of my curve looks like this:
1x Batterskull (Wurmcoil Replacement)
1x Precursor Golem (Grave Titan Replacement)
1x Bloodgift Demon (Consecrated Sphinx Replacement)
3x Olivia Voldaren
1x Inferno Titan (too good to give up)
I've got the Grave Titan, Sphinx, and Wurmcoil in my sideboard; my thought process is swap the Precursor in match ups where they have removal that can take out all golems (doom blade, incinerate, etc) for the Grave Titan. Wurmcoil goes in vs RDW, and Consecrated Sphinx vs decks where they can blow out the Bloodgift before I can start exploiting his card advantage. I guess the question here is: Should I even bother w/ trying to take advantage of these lower CMC creatures that have similar effects to their 6 drop cousins, but are admittedly inferior substitutes to the real deals? I find that I can get stuck on 4 or 5 land for a few turns, and the advantage of bringing down 3 blockers, a couple of extra cards, or a smaller version of a Wurmcoil could be beneficial in staving off my opponent. I could even see running come of the 5 drops in addition to a suite of 6s; probably the Bloodgift and Presursor, not sure how well the mana base supports UU for the sphinx. This brings me to...
3. Beings the deck is primarily a BR deck, splashing blue for Snapcasters and Mana Leaks, how well can we really support UU casting cost spells? I ask because I'll see the odd Dissipate floating around in the main deck and sideboard, and with the idea of potentially including a Consecrated Sphinx as a bomb (card draw, flying body, dismember proof, etc), it seems like the mana base would need to be a bit more evenly distributed. I know Chapin's list used a land distribution that was more or less even across the 3 colors (I think he had 15 sources for Red, Blue, and Black), but with the inclusion of Stensia Bloodhall, my mana producing sources are more like 14 Black, 14 Red, 12 Blue. If you're banking on RR for a T3/T4 Slagstorm, or BB for an early Liliana Drop, it seems like it would be asking too much of the mana base to be able to provide that level of flexibility (BB, RR and/or UU early enough to make use of any of the double color casting cost cards) without having to make some kind of compromise. If the answer to consistent UU is 'no', would I be better served to run another type of counter spell in the main deck like Negate, or cut my main deck counters to 4 and just run the full set of Mana Leaks?
4. With regards to land type selection, I notice a lot of Scars lands are being used. My assumption is that the mana base for this deck is very... ambitious, and as a result, we need to make sure we have the maximum amount of color sources available as early as possible so that we can make those crucial T2 - T4 tempo stopping plays. Having lands come into play tapped later isn't as much of a deal breaker as not having access to early leak/doomblade/slagstorm colors, and when it comes to cards like Alchemy, Ravings, Liliana, etc, Scars lands make a good target for discard, assuming you don't need them. Is this the case? I've seen a couple of arguments for using more of the M12 type lands and less Scars lands, but it seems like you run the risk of not having the mana available for a key early removal/counter that can further be flashed back on T4 with a Snapcaster if needed.
5. Snapcaster/Counter/Removal quantities: I've been going back and forth with 3 vs 4 Snapcaster Mages; with the more limited amount of counters and true spot removal, having access to as many ways to replay them as possible seems important, and the extra body seems like it would be relevant as well. My current count for cards that SCM can interact with is 5 removal spells (3x Doom Blade, 2x Galvanic Blast), 5 counters (3x Mana Leak, 2x Dissipate), 3 Sweepers (Slagstorm). I didn't include Devil's Play b/c it has its own Flashback capability, but Snapcaster could reduce the Flashback cost in a pinch. I love seeing this guy in my hand, especially when I have the spells in the graveyard to fully utilize him, but with 'only' 5 counters and 5 removal in the main deck, should I cut the count on SCMs from 4 to 3 and add in an additional removal/counter, or does the deck run well enough as is?
6. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 'right' way to do so. Sideboarding has always been my worst skill, and I want to make sure I understand the 'whys' of what goes in and out vs simply the 'whats'. My strategies are as follows:
vs. Control: -2 Galvanic, -3 Slagstorm, +1 Mana Leak, +3 Surgical Extraction, +1 Consecrated Sphinx. If Doom Blades are in use, I may side out Presursor for Grave Titan, or possibly keep Precursor in and add Grave Titan in, using the golems to draw out removal. If Black threats are the primary bombs, Doom Blades may or may not come out for something more useful in the sideboard (suggestions?)
vs. Tokens/Humans: -1 Devil's Play, -2 Dissipate, -2 Liliana, -1 Batterskull, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Galvanic, +1 Slagstorm, +2 Curse of Death's Hold, +1 Ratchet Bomb
vs. RDW: -2 Dissipate, -1 Devil's Play, -2 Liliana, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Wurmcoil Engine, +1 Slagstorm, +2 Flashfreeze. Still not sure if siding Lili is the way to go here, but I assume she'll die to burn early on, especially if I use her -2 to kill a creature. If Lilis don't come out, I'd probably not bring in the extra Leak, but I'm not sure what other card I'd not bring in.. Flashfreeze is great vs the red aspect, but doesn't do anything vs Shrine, and cards like Nobles get out of Slagstorm range fairly quickly if left unchecked.
vs. Wolf Run: -3 Slagstorm, -1 Batterskull, -2 Liliana, +2 Flashfreeze, +1 Mana Leak, +1 Galvanic, +2 Curse of Death's Hold
vs. Illusions, U/R Delver, Tempo, etc: -1 Batterskull, -2 Liliana, -2 Dissipate, +1 Galvanic, +1 Slagstorm, +1 Mana Leak, +2 Curse of Death's Hold. I'm not completely sure on the Curses in this matchup, but they seem like they'd be good vs Delvers, Nobles, Snapcasters, etc, and help reduce the damage output from Chandra's Phoenix.
You'll notice my lack of Ancient Grudges in the sideboard.. I'm still not sure I'm completely comfortable with that choice, but with the addition of the Stensia Bloodhalls, I don't have the 'room' to add in a couple of green sources for the flashback w/out further screwing my color base. I'm considering Manic Vandals for the artifact destruction, but I'm not sure I really want/need this, as the grudges serve as an additional way to get rid of things like Inkmoth and Shrines. Inkmoths I have an answer for by way of Doom Blades, Galvanic Blasts, and Curse of Death's Hold. Shrines I'm not so sure about, and could be a problem. Suggestions on how to fit Ancient Grudge into the sideboard and mana base are appreciated.
Sorry for the wall of text, I just figured it'd be easier to get all the info out there at once w/out having to post a string of follow-up questions
Thanks!
I went the Sphere route b/c I'm using it to get to my early 6 mana for a titan/Thrun/Garruk drop, is immune to me Slagstorming the board, and once the 3 charges are used up, it still serves to bring Metalcraft online that much faster. The only drawbacks I see by using Spheres over Emissaries is that I lose out on some early damage/blockers. My opponent choosing to take the early damage could end up stalling me until after they have the board presence to comfortably kill the Emissary, potentially putting me in a bad position.
Do you find that 3 Solemn Sims is enough to see them consistently in the first couple turns? I like them b/c they're at the very least a 2-for-1, with you getting land when they're played, and a card when they die. If you can chump/kill one of their attackers, it can become a 3-for-1. I've considered pulling one of mine to put something else in there, but haven't decided between running a 2nd Thrun main deck, or sneaking in something like a Batterskull/Wurmcoil.
The Batterskull would be nice if drew into it, but it can't be tutor'ed up with Garruk Relentless, and can't be Green Sun'ed for. Relentless would allow me to dig out a Wurmcoil, but if I draw too many big threats too early, I run the chance of being mana starved during those first crucial turns. Thrun suffers from none of these problems, but could potentially be a dead draw if I've already got one in play, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, considering how many ppl are running Phantasmal Images these days...
If I were to make any changes at this point, I feel like it would be something along the lines of:
Maindeck:
-1 Solemn Simulacrum
+1 Thrun, The Last Troll or Acidic Slime
As far as sideboard goes, I made some changes to allow me to have a good set of answers for my less optimal games. I've managed to tweak it enough to have a pair of Garruk, Primal Hunters available to allow me to shift my planes walker strategy from aggro to control if needed, while still allowing access to cards which should help in unfavorable match ups. My changes would look something like:
5x Forest
5x Mountain
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Kessig Wolf Run
Ramp (13)
2x Birds of Paradise
3x Solemn Simulacrum
4x Rampant Growth
4x Sphere of the Suns
1x Devil's Play
3x Slagstorm
4x Galvanic Blast
Tutors (3)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Garruk Relentless
Beatsticks (9)
4x Primeval Titan
3x Inferno Titan
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Batterskull
2x Sword of Feast and Famine
2x Beast Within
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Devil's Play
1x Slagstorm
3x Autumns Veil
1x Tree of Redemption
This seems like it would be strong vs most games out of the box, with decent side boarding options for the Mirror, RDW, Illusions, Control, UW Humans, GW Tokens, and Tempered Steel:
Garruk, PH: Swap for Relentless for more control-oriented games
Batterskull: Swap in for RDW
Sword of FaF: Swap in for Control, makes Thrun super scary and gives Birds some bite.
Beast Within: Good for targeted permanent removal (Planeswalkers, Artifacts, Enchantments)
Ancient Grudge: Mirror Match, Tempered Steel, Humans/Tokens matchup w/ Swords, Shrine for RDW
Devil's Play: Extra burn for mirror and control
Slagstorm: Extra board wipe for tokens, weenies, opposing ramp, illusions, etc
Autumn's Veil: Jam Titans down a control deck's throat FTW
Tree of Redemption: Help offset life loss from fast decks like RDW, Tempered Steel, some of the more aggressive aggro decks
The only thing I really wish I had room for in here would be a Wurmcoil, but I can't really find anything I'd be willing to cut main deck or sideboard to fit it in, and Batterskull provides a lot of the same functionality for 1 less mana, as well as has the ability to be equipped and recast if necessary. Inferno Titan is just scary good against cards like illusions, birds, Mirran Crusaders, Delvers, other small creatures, and worst case, it's 3 more points of damage to your opponent's face.
Sorry for the wall of text, I'm trying to fine tune this thing to take to FNM tonight, and I tend to be a more control oriented player, this is a new archetype for me.
Edit: After reading your comments on Acidic slime, I could see having at least one of those available, either MD or SB. Perhaps I'll drop the Swords from the SB, move one Thrun back from MD to SB, and then put an Acidic slime in main and the WCE in the sideboard.. that gives me everything I could want, especially considering I'm already using Kessig Wolf Run to boost up my creatures on the attack. Sadly, the Pro Green/Black is something I'll miss.
Relentless seems like the better choice due to me being able to 'snipe' one of their smaller threats and/or popping my own Sim for the card draw to pull a creature out of my deck. My concern is that it can take several turns for Garruk to fully get online before I can begin capitalizing on his abilities (One turn to drop/fight and transform, one turn to make a wolf if your board is empty and/or +1 so you don't burn him on the tutor ability, one turn to sac for a creature). Being able to drop him on Turn 3-4 for a much more friendly 3G seems like it would be strategically beneficial, especially if you could create that wolf to help clog the board early on while ramping/looking for a bigger threat to get on the board. Relentless becomes especially useful too for digging out that clutch Inferno Titan / Wurmcoil, and easily serves the purpose of a much broader reaching GSZ #4-5, which is the benefit that swings my decision in his favor.
I've also been tossing around the idea of running 3 Solemn Sims / 2 Thruns maindeck, as well as possibly running 2 Inferno Titans / 1 Wurmcoil to provide me with a more diverse threat profile. I've even considered going so far as to sideboard a 2nd WCE for an aggro heavy matchup, but with Batterskull in the SB already, I figure if I end up in that position, I can just side one of the Inferno titans out for the Batterskull, or even possibly swap one Inferno Titan for the 2nd WCE and pull Devil's Play for a Batterskull, giving me 1 5 drop lifelink that doubles as equipment, and 2 6 drop lifeline creatures that persist through a board wipe.
Anyone have any further suggestions?
-1 Devil's Play
-1 Inferno Titan
-1 Shock
-1 Mountain
+1 Bird of Paradise
+2 Garruk Relentless
+1 Green Sun's Zenith
The 2nd Devil's Play made its way into the Sideboard in the event I end up needing it. My new deck list is as follows:
5x Forest
5x Mountain
4x Copperline Gorge
4x Rootbound Crag
4x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Kessig Wolf Run
Ramp (14)
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Rampant Growth
4x Sphere of the Sun
4x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Devil's Play
3x Slagstorm
4x Galvanic Blast
Tutors (3)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
Planeswalkers (2)
2x Garruk Relentless
Beatsticks (8)
4x Primeval Titan
3x Inferno Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Batterskull
2x Sword of Feast and Famine
3x Beast Within
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Devil's Play
1x Slagstorm
4x Autumn's Veil
My questions are:
1. Is Garruk worth running main deck in a list like this? I feel like 25 lands is enough, and I haven't really been screwed from a mana standpoint with the removal of the mountain, and the Shock just kind of felt out of place, so I feel like I have the slots available for him, should he be worth the investment.
2. *WHICH* Garruk is going to be the better addition, assuming the answer to Question 1 is 'Yes'. I like Relentless b/c I can use him for removal vs lower toughness threats, as well as spit out wolves to provide me with some extra bodies. Once he flips, I can sac one of those aforementioned wolves (or Solemn Sim and get the card draw) to fish out any creature from the deck, to include an Inferno Titan or possibly Wurmcoil Engine (which would take the place of one of the Inferno Titans). The Primal Hunter serves a similar purpose with regards to spitting out token creatures to swing with, but unless I already have a larger creature out (Thrun, Titan), the card draw is going to be less spectacular. This can be somewhat mitigated by using Kessig Wolf Run (assuming you have it in play) to boost the power of one of your creatures prior to using the draw effect, or using it after combat, assuming your creature will survive the combat phase, and draw a larger number of cards than normally allowed by their Power. Is it worth considering running a combination of Primal Hunter/Relentless?
3. How many big threats are 'enough', and which ones are best? There's been a few times where my hand has been clogged by Titans, and I didn't have a way to get them into play. I love the idea of big beefy threats in the deck, but it doesn't do me a lot of good if I can't get them onto the table. I'm a little apprehensive about reducing my Primeval Titan count below 4, however I have included an extra Green Sun to find one if needed, and with the addition of Garruk <insert variant here>, I have a couple different ways to find what I need. Additionally, if do reduce my Primeval count from 4 to 3, would I be better served to bring my 2nd Devil's Play back into the main deck, add a 2nd Thrun, or add another fattie like a Wurmcoil?
4. Should I be considering drops on other points in the mana curve? I know the World deck was tuned around the 2-4-6 drop range, but I've found myself in a few positions where there was a threat on the board that I couldn't answer, and felt like if I had another relevant, less expensive cost creature to put out, I could have mitigated things a bit earlier. This led to me wanting a bit of extra ramp (another bird), and a better chance of pulling/finding a relevant 4 drop to put out early (Garruk Relentless, another Green Sun, possibly another Thrun main deck).
I'm sure there are more questions I should be asking, but they elude me at the moment. Please have a look at the above decklist and questions and leave comments. I'd like to take this to FNM and test it out, but don't want to hamstring myself by running a bad/suboptimal list, as our environment is fairly competitive.
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Seachrome Coast
8 Plains
Creatures: (22)
4 Memnite
4 Vault Skirge
4 Signal Pest
4 Steel Overseer
3 Spellskite
3 Hex Parasite
4 Tempered Steel
4 Dispatch
4 Preordain
Artifacts: (6)
4 Glint Hawk Idol
2 Mox Opal
3 Revoke Existence
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spell Pierce
2 Shrine of Loyal Legions
3 Flashfreeze
Now, my questions/observations:
- My initial deck splashed blue for Spell Pierce MB, which I've now put into the SB so I had some extra draw during the first game. Beings this is an aggro heavy deck, how does Preordain / Ponder fare vs a bit of control/counter capability during Game 1? I worry about things like ppl MD'ing Creeping Corrosion / Day of Judgement, but I expect to see those more in Game 2 & 3, where I'll be able to make a more informed decision about whether or not I need the counter capability vs finding the cards I need to wrap up the match quickly.
- With regards to Spell Pierce specifically, I can appreciate only having to leave U open for counters, and the potential to totally screw an opponent up early game by stopping a key non-creature spell, but it seems like a weak'ish play later in the game. That, coupled with the fact that it cycles soon, leads me to wonder if Negate or Stoic Rebuttal would be a better option. Negate seems like a 'better' fit with U1 vs. Stoic's UU requirement (Metalcraft ftw), and both are hard counters vs. an 'opponent spends more mana' condition to counter. If a counterspell is going to be run, these seem like the 2 best options post Zendikar; what are your guys' thoughts?
- Regarding post-rotation in general (and that seems like a taboo subject here), what kinds of brainstorming is being done for replacement cards to cover the holes like Steel Overseer. I've seen Hero of Bladehold tucked into a few of these builds, and I really like the idea of having something that doesn't necessarily interact with the Artifact component of the deck (and is therefore immune to things like Creeping Corrosion. Additionally, those slots could simply be filled w/ an offensive oriented beat stick like Porcelain Legionnaire, or a sandbagged creature/draw effect like Origin Spellbomb, but then the only real option I'll have to boost these creatures up will be Tempered Steel itself, or the aggregate Battle Cry bonuses of Hero of Bladehold and Signal Pest (which won't really do anything for their Toughness, meaning I'll still likely be trading cards like Hex Parasite and Memnite).
I'll admit up front that I'm really terrible when it comes to Sideboarding, and building Sideboards in general. I've always built decks around them being tightly focused and having the cards play well off of each other, so when I have to break up components of my deck to swap in specific answers, I always feel like the deck is a bit worse off. My sideboarding thoughts are:
In Maindeck:
- Hex Parasite: Swap out if not playing a counter heavy opponent, or have no Planeswalkers to remove.
- Preordain: Swap out for Spell Pierces or other clutch cards in SB.
- Spellskite: Swap out if not playing a heavy burn/removal deck
In Sideboard:
- Revoke Existance: Swap in for dealing with nastier artifacts/enchantments (Quests, Blightsteel, Wurmcoil, other Tempered Steel, Oblivion Rings, etc)
- Phyrexian Revoker: Added measure of protection vs Planeswalkers and other key cards with activated abilities. Still on the fence with this guy, but it does offer me an additional answer to key cards in my opponent's deck w/ activated abilities, and he's also subject to Steel Overseer/Tempered Steel bonuses.
- Spell Pierce (or Negate/Stoic Rebuttal): Some form of protection from board wipes, artifact removal, creature removal, or other terrifying things that can ruin my day. Would love to be able to run this AND some form of fish/draw option in main deck, but am unsure where to put it, unless I just wait and fill the 4x Steel Overseer slots with these.
- Shrine of Loyal Legions: Great to get out early and build up counters for a big swarm post board wipe, seems kind of vulnerable to things like artifact removal, Divine Offering, Revoke Existance, Leonin Relic Warders, etc, etc.
- Flashfreeze: Backup for Green/Red (we see a fair number of Goblin, RDW, Birthing Pod, and Green Ramp in our local meta).
I always find I'm floundering when it comes to trying to figure out what to take out of MD to sideboard in. Anyone willing to offer suggestions on what is worth keeping/swapping when sideboarding against different deck types? Also, if you see anything important enough to consider for maindeck or sideboard that I've missed, please feel free to share.
Sorry for the long winded post, I've just had a lot of questions swirling around in my head, and I tend to ramble a lot
I've got a small chunk of one track solved already, and think I may have pinned down part of the interval, but still need to compare what I've solved so far against these other boxes in as many different ways as I can to confirm what I've got. This is a lot more fun than I thought it would be!
Anyone else seeing this?
Happened across the Scars of Mirrodin box mapping thread after a buddy of mine at our local gaming shop told me about the possibility of mapping boxes. Needless to say, I was highly intrigued about the whole process, and set out to learn how to do it. Within 2-3 days, I had created an Excel spreadsheet that would accurately predict an entire box map (minus top row disruption) based on the data collected from opening a couple of packs from each Track. Once I realized this was possible, I knew I wanted to be a part of mapping M12. All that being said, here is my initial box contribution:
Left
Phantasmal Image
Day of Judgement
Manabarbs
Mesa Enchantress
Dungrove Elder
Gideon's Avenger
Elvish Archdruid
Royal Assassin
Throne of Empires
Warstorm Surge
Sorin's Vengeance
Sunpetal Grove
Middle
Goblin Chieftan
Sundial of the Infinite
Garruk's Horde
Frost Titan
Primordial Hydra
Quicksilver Amulet
Monomania
Personal Sanctuary
Rune-Scarred Demon
Flameblast Dragon
Sun Titan
Chandra's Phoenix
Right
Redirect
Drowned Catacombs
Skinshifter
Sorin's Vengeance
Lord of the Unreal
Pentavus
Grim Lavamancer
Djinn of Wishes
Jace, Memory Adept
Scrambleverse
Rootbound Craig
Drowned Catacombs
Not a bad box; 2 Titans, a Hydra, and a Jace. Looking forward to contributing however I can to help break this map.